The REAL Most Powerful Sith Lord

[Spartanik]

The REAL Most Powerful Sith Lord

The real one? Me on Carnaval.

And sometimes when i play too much and dont sleep. You should see my face, its like sidious, but more handsome, its hard to resist the dark side toll.

 

 

Honestly though we probably will see a new sith stronger then anyone, in the upcoming movies. Probably.

 

Done, if people won't accept this then I dunno what to say.

I accept its crap though i dont have to like it, or read it, much less consider it.

[Beniboybling]

Really?You would take this quote out of context and most importantly out of the thread, and post it here,especially that it was made clear these things are not directly involved with the ongoing Vitaite vs Sidious discussion but more towards the Sidious' support.Which can be applied to Sidious vs anyone,not only Vitiate.

 

You must be pretty butthurt.

 

edit: but anyway,thanks for posting it here,the first point of it needed to be said.

Out of context? This is the context. I ask you to consider this thread, and this was your response. The topic should be discussed here and I posted it here so everyone would know the current counter-argument to this debate.

 

EDIT: I'd also point out here that this so called flawed method is the same method used to resolve all major disputes in the REAL Most Powerful Series and in so far has lead to very accurate results that the majority of the community agree on. Simply put its tried and tested and it works, it just doesn't suit your opinions.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

Out of context? This is the context. I ask you to consider this thread, and this was

 

my comment on the thing you told me to read in regards to the issue going on in the other thread.Namely things that thus far were out context in regards to this thread. - the motivation behind being for and against certain characters.

 

EDIT: I'd also point out here that this so called flawed method is the same method used to resolve all major disputes in the REAL Most Powerful Series and in so far has lead to very accurate results that

I have seen pretty insane results in those threads of yours,so saying it leads to accurate results in full conviction,is laughable at best.

the majority of the community agree on.

a community consisting of the colored team and a few more buddies. /clap

[Beniboybling]

my comment on the thing you told me to read in regards to the issue going on in the other thread.Namely things that thus far were out context in regards to this thread. - the motivation behind being for and against certain characters.

This is the thread I told you to read, therefore any criticisms made regarding its method belong in this thread.

[Beniboybling]

I have seen pretty insane results in those threads of yours,so saying it leads to accurate results in full conviction,is laughable at best.

 

a community consisting of the colored team and a few more buddies. /clap

Well clearly their is no convincing you, are your entitled to your opinions, I'll leave others to decide whether the reasoning is flawed or not. Though you do seem to be the minority.

[divinecynic]

Honestly though we probably will see a new sith stronger then anyone, in the upcoming movies. Probably.

 

And there you have it.

Debates about who is the most powerful Sith (or nearly anything for that matter in Star Wars) ultimately fail for one reason above all.

 

Star Wars canon is constantly in flux. That means that the Sith Emperor's and Palpatine's stories may not even be done yet. The new movies may invalidate tons of things in EU and say that he was weak. Think I am full of it, go do the research and see how the movies have massively shifted canon over the years.

 

You did a lot of research and present a lot of evidence for your point. Bravo.

 

That being said I struggle to agree and that is for simple fact: time. I look at Palpatine who rules for just over 40 years (in one form or another) and then I look at Tenebrae who rules for over 1200 years. I look at Palpatine who lives (including spirit jumps and all that) less than 100 years and Tenebrae who live somewhere between 1400 and just over 5000 years.

 

Then again when the next novel, the next video game, the next comic book or the next movie comes along everything may change again.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I doubt they would retcon the original Emperor as not being the strongest. Again....people look way too much at post-ROTJ Sidious and not enough before, he was still the most powerful Sith Lord before the cloning thing.

 

But we shall see what happens, all this doesn't stop at Sidious neither all the other lists that have been done so far are gonna change if something big happens. Though we shall need to wait and see.

[divinecynic]

I seriously doubt they would retcon the original Emperor as not being the strongest. Not only do you have C-canon sources stating such, but also G-canon(movie novelizations) stating such. Again....people look way too much at post-ROTJ Sidious and not enough before, he was still the most powerful Sith Lord before the cloning thing.

 

But we shall see what happens, all this doesn't stop at Sidious neither all the other lists that have been done so far are gonna change if something big happens. Though we shall need to wait and see.

 

Movie novelizations do not count for much considering the novelization of a New Hope had there being Galactic Emperors before Palpatine. It is in Ben's talk with Luke about the fall of the Jedi. C-Canon gets messed all the times as well.

 

And I agree, we have to wait and see. I could easily see them raising the stakes to sell tickets. I completely see the post-ROTJ EU stuff getting invalidated by the new flicks for instance. Even with the game too boot. The Sith Emperor may indeed ascend, who knows?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Movie novelizations do not count for much considering the novelization of a New Hope had there being Galactic Emperors before Palpatine. It is in Ben's talk with Luke about the fall of the Jedi. C-Canon gets messed all the times as well.

 

And I agree, we have to wait and see. I could easily see them raising the stakes to sell tickets. I completely see the post-ROTJ EU stuff getting invalidated by the new flicks for instance. Even with the game too boot. The Sith Emperor may indeed ascend, who knows?

 

The novelizations are still on the same tier, so they do count for much.

 

But anyway I don't think they will make someone stronger than Sidious, this would also completely undermine the entire point of the RoT which was to make the most powerful Sith and eradicate the Jedi Order which happened. Could they retcon it? Sure...but I don't see the point in doing so, it seems unnecessary.

 

Besides just because there is a new trilogy coming out, doesn't mean that they would have to make someone stronger than Palps. For all we know we could be dealing with some crazy Dark Jedi or something of that nature, the Emperor's Hands or some such noise.

 

In fact they could very well not even have Sith in the next movies, they could use some Imperial Moffs or whatever too.

[Kaedusz]

...

sorry for the off topic

the answer to this is part of the post in the other thread.

[divinecynic]

The novelizations are still on the same tier, so they do count for much.

 

But anyway I don't think they will make someone stronger than Sidious, this would also completely undermine the entire point of the RoT which was to make the most powerful Sith and eradicate the Jedi Order which happened. Could they retcon it? Sure...but I don't see the point in doing so, it seems unnecessary.

 

Besides just because there is a new trilogy coming out, doesn't mean that they would have to make someone stronger than Palps. For all we know we could be dealing with some crazy Dark Jedi or something of that nature, the Emperor's Hands or some such noise.

 

In fact they could very well not even have Sith in the next movies, they could use some Imperial Moffs or whatever too.

 

They may very well not make someone stronger the Palp in the movies. Who knows indeed? However there will be Sith. There has been Sith in every movie so far and I doubt they will ditch it. Just like there will be Skywalkers and droids.

 

Again my point on canon is that it changes and details in the movies change-special edition anyone? So simply put nothing is above being tinkered with in Star Wars. Plus if you toss in EU the mix gets even more muddled.

 

Now let me say this, as things stands now, I struggle with Palpatine being stronger than the Tenebrae. The length of reign and Tenebrae's end, while confirmed, is so far away (maybe during Palpatine's lifetime even). So my point about him is the same as yours about the new movies-who knows. So much of Palpatine's story is known and the other unknown it is hard to say. I am not saying that the recorded evidence does lean toward Palpatine, it does. I am saying the jury is out because Tenebrae is not done and Palpatine's story may change..

[sell-dog]

Now let me say this, as things stands now, I struggle with Palpatine being stronger than the Tenebrae. The length of reign and Tenebrae's end, while confirmed, is so far away (maybe during Palpatine's lifetime even). So my point about him is the same as yours about the new movies-who knows. So much of Palpatine's story is known and the other unknown it is hard to say. I am not saying that the recorded evidence does lean toward Palpatine, it does. I am saying the jury is out because Tenebrae is not done and Palpatine's story may change

 

I would be surprised if Tenebrae is still around at the start of the 4th Schism/Darth Ruin's time. Not saying it couldn't happen but I personally consider it unlikely.

 

I don't think it's fair to take length of reign to imply more power. There are so many other factors when discussing an empire with trillions of people that can affect how long your reign is. Example, if Conor Jax wouldn't have messed with Palpatine's clones he may have had a reign longer than Tenebrae as it was said he reached immortality. But when you have trillions of people running around unpredictability happens. If Palpatine couldn't foresee the compromising of his clones there's no way that Tenebrae would've under the circumstances as Palpatine's foresight abilities is greater than Tenebrae's. Scourge was in the Tenebrae's circle for 300+ years and he never realized Scourge's true intentions.

 

Example: The Lost Tribe of Sith ruled their territory (Kesh) for 5000+ years. Are they stronger than the Brotherhood of Sith? No. Is the Lost Tribe more successful? Debatable. More powerful? Definitely not.

 

Note that much of Tenebrae's rule was in isolation from his primary threat the Rupublic. Palpatine's rule as Emperor he had no such advantage.

[Kaedusz]

As a shadow of his former self and severly weakened ,The Dark Underlord is also a possibility.

Most likely he will return or be will be killed before this era(return of the sith empire) is over.

Or maybe he lives somewhere in coma or w/e and Bane's sith scavenge what they can from him,before killing him.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[divinecynic]

I would be surprised if Tenebrae is still around at the start of the 4th Schism/Darth Ruin's time. Not saying it couldn't happen but I personally consider it unlikely.

 

I don't think it's fair to take length of reign to imply more power. There are so many other factors when discussing an empire with trillions of people that can affect how long your reign is. Example, if Conor Jax wouldn't have messed with Palpatine's clones he may have had a reign longer than Tenebrae as it was said he reached immortality. But when you have trillions of people running around unpredictability happens. If Palpatine couldn't foresee the compromising of his clones there's no way that Tenebrae would've under the circumstances as Palpatine's foresight abilities is greater than Tenebrae's. Scourge was in the Tenebrae's circle for 300+ years and he never realized Scourge's true intentions.

 

Example: The Lost Tribe of Sith ruled their territory (Kesh) for 5000+ years. Are they stronger than the Brotherhood of Sith? No. Is the Lost Tribe more successful? Debatable. More powerful? Definitely not.

 

Note that much of Tenebrae's rule was in isolation from his primary threat the Rupublic. Palpatine's rule as Emperor he had no such advantage.

 

Definitely some fair points in there so let me address them.

 

I would length of unnatural life and rule implies more power but does not equate it no. In fairness I see it as part of the whole bit Bioware seems to be going with him. Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy, Tenebrae wants to eat it. There is also the whole apotheosis bit. Tenebrae is trying to become a god. It sure seems like Bioware is trying to make the stronger Sith.

 

Also, as someone else pointed out, by making all the Sith Empire's stuff look a lot like the Galactic Empire's stuff and having the some of the Sith dress like Sidious, it actually makes Palpatine look like he was imitating them. Bioware really makes it look like Palpatine is trying not to be Bane or Qel-Droma but Tenebrae. Which is funny because the game is actually imitating the movies. But since it comes first timeline-wise...

 

I do not think he makes it to Bane, unless they do a major retcon. I was using hyperbole there.

 

On the foresight bit, btw I was always of the opinion that Palpatine was not as good at it as he made it out to be. I know when I saw ROTJ way back when I saw it as part of his tricks. Oh he had some of it but nothing overwhelming. He got glimpses like everyone else. He just played that he knew everything.

 

That was the old days, back when we thought Vader was way more powerful but Palpatine was keeping him in check through more trickery and cunning. Palpatine was not a super-sith, he just very manipulative and very smart. Ah well, EU & Lucas disagreed and here we are.

 

The reality is that Bioware was trying to make a bigger badder Palpatine. EU writers and novelization writers already made him the Sith above all Sith. The jury is still out because times are a changing. The Mouse ultimately is in the driver seat now.

 

PS Speaking of Scrouge. They definitely went for parallels there didn't they.

[Beniboybling]

And there you have it.

Debates about who is the most powerful Sith (or nearly anything for that matter in Star Wars) ultimately fail for one reason above all.

 

Star Wars canon is constantly in flux. That means that the Sith Emperor's and Palpatine's stories may not even be done yet. The new movies may invalidate tons of things in EU and say that he was weak. Think I am full of it, go do the research and see how the movies have massively shifted canon over the years.

 

You did a lot of research and present a lot of evidence for your point. Bravo.

 

That being said I struggle to agree and that is for simple fact: time. I look at Palpatine who rules for just over 40 years (in one form or another) and then I look at Tenebrae who rules for over 1200 years. I look at Palpatine who lives (including spirit jumps and all that) less than 100 years and Tenebrae who live somewhere between 1400 and just over 5000 years.

 

Then again when the next novel, the next video game, the next comic book or the next movie comes along everything may change again.

I try to avoid that somewhat nihilistic attitude to be honest, yes the Star Wars universe is in constant flux, but the present remains a static thing, and I feel in the present we are free to debate and discuss the current realities of said universe. To not do so is to invite anarchy. After all what is the purpose of reference books and canon itself but to solidify the franchise? I simply don't feel saying "well it may or may not change in the foreseeable future so this discussion is pointless" is a very healthy point of view. But that's just my opinion.

 

Regardless I do not share your concerns. The possibility that the Sequels will severely dumb down Sidious' abilities is pure conjecture and not really supported by the nature of previous changes made to the franchise. I admit that the post-ROTJ may come under scrutiny, but their is really no reason for them to even touch other EU works, so we should not assume they would. As for the Sith Emperor, he has a long way to climb, and I do not feel that BioWare has the authority to make any massive changes to canon. All major overhauls of the franchise have come from the top, the big brass, never by something as insignificant as a videogames developer.

 

And really, creating a Force user that surpasses Sidious would just be overkill.

 

As for your second point, the ability to rule an Empire has little too no bearing on one's Force abilities. But I'll humor you. Vitiate did indeed rule a powerful Empire for 1,300 years, but in the shadows, constituting a tiny portion of the galaxy, incomparable to the size of Sidious' galactic empire. Essentially he lacked the attention of anyone who could destroy him i.e. the Jedi. Now you could point to the Sith but that would be only valid if Sidious was usurped solely by a Sith force, but he was not, he was usurped by the Jedi. Simply put Sidious had an extremely volatile galaxy to deal with, and specifically Jedi. Rahm Kota, Galen Marek, Luke Skywalker and eventually Darth Vader all had a hand in his defeat, among others. Three of those individuals are some of the most powerful Force users the galaxy has ever seen. Heck throw the will of the Force in there, because that was working against him as well.

 

The situation makes the two incomparable, and really we shouldn't try to. Remembering that it has no bearing really at all on their personal Force prowess. But simply on the caliber of their enemies. Sidious' enemies were far more powerful. Though in reality it was the Sith Emperor's paranoia as opposed to Darth Sidious' arrogance that accounts for the disparity. But again time is a very loose means by which to gauge any kind of prowess.

 

P.S. Though it should be noted that Sidious very existence disrupted the balance of the Force, which ultimately led to the Force acting against him and bringing him down, the Sith Emperor despite his power had no such effect as he failed to spread his dark influence across the entire galaxy as Darth Sidious did. People often forget this.

[Beniboybling]

Now let me say this, as things stands now, I struggle with Palpatine being stronger than the Tenebrae. The length of reign and Tenebrae's end, while confirmed, is so far away (maybe during Palpatine's lifetime even). So my point about him is the same as yours about the new movies-who knows. So much of Palpatine's story is known and the other unknown it is hard to say. I am not saying that the recorded evidence does lean toward Palpatine, it does. I am saying the jury is out because Tenebrae is not done and Palpatine's story may change..

Your mistaken here if you think the Sith Emperor's reign lasts up until 67 BBY - it doesn't, not only would that contradict canon but it is only stated as such because this was the year that Plagueis referred to the Sith Emperor's death. But it likely occurred way way before that.

 

He is already dead in body, and when he comes back, he'll likely be killed in spirit too.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yeah...when a character can piss off what is essentially a universe's god in any work of fiction(Sidious pissing off The Force in this case), you know **** just got real. Edited October 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Definitely some fair points in there so let me address them.

 

I would length of unnatural life and rule implies more power but does not equate it no. In fairness I see it as part of the whole bit Bioware seems to be going with him. Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy, Tenebrae wants to eat it. There is also the whole apotheosis bit. Tenebrae is trying to become a god. It sure seems like Bioware is trying to make the stronger Sith.

 

Also, as someone else pointed out, by making all the Sith Empire's stuff look a lot like the Galactic Empire's stuff and having the some of the Sith dress like Sidious, it actually makes Palpatine look like he was imitating them. Bioware really makes it look like Palpatine is trying not to be Bane or Qel-Droma but Tenebrae. Which is funny because the game is actually imitating the movies. But since it comes first timeline-wise...

 

I do not think he makes it to Bane, unless they do a major retcon. I was using hyperbole there.

 

On the foresight bit, btw I was always of the opinion that Palpatine was not as good at it as he made it out to be. I know when I saw ROTJ way back when I saw it as part of his tricks. Oh he had some of it but nothing overwhelming. He got glimpses like everyone else. He just played that he knew everything.

 

That was the old days, back when we thought Vader was way more powerful but Palpatine was keeping him in check through more trickery and cunning. Palpatine was not a super-sith, he just very manipulative and very smart. Ah well, EU & Lucas disagreed and here we are.

 

The reality is that Bioware was trying to make a bigger badder Palpatine. EU writers and novelization writers already made him the Sith above all Sith. The jury is still out because times are a changing. The Mouse ultimately is in the driver seat now.

 

PS Speaking of Scrouge. They definitely went for parallels there didn't they.

That's a whole lot of reading between the lines your doing there.

 

It could just be that BioWare wanted to make an Empire people could relate to, so they gave it Troopers and Star Destroyers, and Moffs, and a Royal Guard, and Hands and a Wrath (A.K.A Darth Vader) and a mysterious Emperor. I doubt they all got together a hatched a devilish plot to 'overthrow' Sidious. That just seems a little far-fetched to me.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's a whole lot of reading between the lines your doing there.

 

It could just be that BioWare wanted to make an Empire people could relate to, so they gave it Troopers and Star Destroyers, and Moffs, and a Royal Guard, and Hands and a Wrath (A.K.A Darth Vader) and a mysterious Emperor. I doubt they all got together a hatched a devilish plot to 'overthrow' Sidious. That just seems a little far-fetched to me.

 

The OG Empire Troops/Destroyers/Moffs/Royal Guard/Hands/Wrath are better anyway!

[Aurbere]

a community consisting of the colored team and a few more buddies. /clap

 

It's a community effort. You failing to participate in any meaningful way is not out fault. Not only that, but if it was just those who post colored text, the list would be very different. I can assure you that.

[Beniboybling]

It's a community effort. You failing to participate in any meaningful way is not out fault. Not only that, but if it was just those who post colored text, the list would be very different. I can assure you that.

A community that fortunately Kaedusz is not a part of...

[divinecynic]

That's a whole lot of reading between the lines your doing there.

 

It could just be that BioWare wanted to make an Empire people could relate to, so they gave it Troopers and Star Destroyers, and Moffs, and a Royal Guard, and Hands and a Wrath (A.K.A Darth Vader) and a mysterious Emperor. I doubt they all got together a hatched a devilish plot to 'overthrow' Sidious. That just seems a little far-fetched to me.

 

Well no question that they want an empire that had the right look to it. That goes back to KOTOR. Seriously you do not see Tenebrae as Palpatine cranked to 11. That is the impression I have gotten the whole time. There is no question they based him on Palpatine.

 

They did the same with Malgus. Look at the Deceived trailor and tell me they we not trying to make him as cool as possible. One might even argue Vader but better.

 

Bioware is not dumb. They know how to play to the crowd.

[Aurbere]

I'm just going to say something about Sidious' first death: at least he didn't walk into somebody's lightsaber.

 

So much for the mighty Sith Emperor.

[divinecynic]

Your mistaken here if you think the Sith Emperor's reign lasts up until 67 BBY - it doesn't, not only would that contradict canon but it is only stated as such because this was the year that Plagueis referred to the Sith Emperor's death. But it likely occurred way way before that.

 

He is already dead in body, and when he comes back, he'll likely be killed in spirit too.

 

Oh no I was not saying that his reigned was that long. We do know it lasts over 1200 years though and Palpatine does not make to 50. I was saying that Tenebrae's end as in his death may be that far away. Even if he dies before Bane we are still talking some time.

 

And yeah sooner of later he bites it. Then again maybe he ascends and becomes a dark side force of nature and haunts a nebula or something.

 

My point is that too much is in flux to be absolutely sure. Bioware going for the whole dark god bit with him also raises doubts. The evidence does learn to Palpatine but the game is not over either.

 

As to contradicting canon, see the rest of my posts where I talk about how trustworthy canon is in light that every level of it gets changed off and on.

[Beniboybling]

Well no question that they want an empire that had the right look to it. That goes back to KOTOR. Seriously you do not see Tenebrae as Palpatine cranked to 11. That is the impression I have gotten the whole time. There is no question they based him on Palpatine.

 

They did the same with Malgus. Look at the Deceived trailor and tell me they we not trying to make him as cool as possible. One might even argue Vader but better.

 

Bioware is not dumb. They know how to play to the crowd.

Yes of course they based him on Palpatine, that is what I just said, but do they have an insidious (pun not intended) plot to make him more powerful? I highly doubt that.

 

And are they trying to make a better Vader? Again I'd like to think BioWare are not so petty and concerned with one-upmanship and instead more interested in creating quality games that appeal to the fans. The Sith Emperor and Malgus are designed to appeal to what fans know and love, and what they can relate to. Though in all honesty I expect Malgus is simply BioWare picking the warrior archetype for a certain character and the inevitable similarities followed.