Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

Ok to clear the air with the whole Maul vs Sidious thing, here is the bit from Shadow Conspiracy which is pretty much the same thing is seen in the episode only...well written.

 

Sidious really seem to have just toyed with the two up until the end as he seemed to have picked up on his speed...this seems rather fitting as before Maul was unable to track Sidious.

 

TCW Outranks the book in terms of Canon, so unfortunately it means that Maul lasted as long as was shown in TCW....

[tunewalker]

Ok to clear the air with the whole Maul vs Sidious thing, here is the bit from Shadow Conspiracy which is pretty much the same thing is seen in the episode only...well written.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sidious really seem to have just toyed with the two up until the end as he seemed to have picked up on his speed...this seems rather fitting as before Maul was unable to track Sidious.

 

thank you wolf.

[Selenial]

He did let Maul live...... remember I have other uses for you he DIDNT kill Maul he made him an acolyte instead of an apprentice because he wasn't good enough to be an apprentice any more.

 

Nope.

 

For all we know, he could just have been tortured until Vader became Vader.

 

That, and Maul couldn't lead the CIS.

Switching out Dooku for Maul would just have been wrong on so many levels, and would have undone the CIS completely.

[Beniboybling]

Maul vs Ventress, we've seen it, we know how it goes down. Ventress dies, simple as.

Is that so? You quickly changed your tune.

[tunewalker]

TCW Outranks the book in terms of Canon, so unfortunately it means that Maul lasted as long as was shown in TCW....

 

Actually just like the Movie novels are on the same cannon level as the books I believe its the same case here this is the same story just written so at the end of the day they are of the same level cannon.

[Selenial]

My first few comparisons:

 

• Sith Assassins vs the Sith Warriors. Simples, the Sith Assassins can mask their presence, and were designed to kill force users. Relentless assassins bound to Traya's will, they'd take down the Warriors no problem.
   
  
• Maul vs Ventress, we've seen it, we know how it goes down. Ventress dies, simple as.
   
  
• Maul vs Malgus... Close, I think maul would win it... But that's debatable I guess.
   
  
• Maul can easily become the next Sion, fueled by his Rage he's survived being chopped in Half. With Traya at the helm he'd be able to pretty much immortalize himself.
   
  
• Maul and Traya are a virtually unkillable team, Her incredible proficiency in the force, and his adept abilities in Saber combat, telekinesis and Dun Moch, having showed skill in holding off two aggressive saber fighters... Well, it'd be a slaughter.
   
  
• As for grevious, we've already seen a few Gungans with Pikes take him down due to sheer Numbers, the Assassins would fare even better.
   
  
• Santhe/Sienar have the schematics to the Rakatan ships, the Interdictors... Suddenly, Rakata ships, not so unique.
   
  
• Traya knows Korriban inside out, so do the Assassins, I'd imagine it would be quite an easy capture for their stealthed forces...
   
  
• I haz dem smexeh fighter dominance, and my Fleet has no open weaknesses... Revans fleet however was susceptible to strike teams because their fighters sucked and they couldn't even shoot them down.
   
  
• Saleucami... Cloning tanks. 'Nuff said.
  

 

Want to refer people to this for debate.

 

This Maul argument is ridiculous, and completely meaningless. No matter the outcome, we all know he's a match for the combatants in this Kaggath, bar MAYBE Malgus.

[Selenial]

Is that so? You quickly changed your tune.

 

That was TPM Maul... Who fell easily to Dun Moch.

 

Also, we all know I'm just a fangirl

 

But yeh, Maul smacked Ventress down in TCW.....

[Selenial]

Actually just like the Movie novels are on the same cannon level as the books I believe its the same case here this is the same story just written so at the end of the day they are of the same level cannon.

 

Movies>TCW>Books.

[tunewalker]

Nope.

 

For all we know, he could just have been tortured until Vader became Vader.

 

That, and Maul couldn't lead the CIS.

Switching out Dooku for Maul would just have been wrong on so many levels, and would have undone the CIS completely.

 

completely missed the whole "secret apprentice" thing we know maul dies before the end of the clone wars so we know that he did have a use for him.... Sidious didn't kill maul thus completely debunking your thought that sidious didn't want the 2 of them running around at the same time clearly they were so clearly he didnt have a problem with it. IF maul was best Sidious would have made him his apprentice because that's what sidious does.

[tunewalker]

Movies>TCW>Books.

 

Movies+ Movie novels> TCW+novelization of TCW content> old CW cartoon and books.

 

 

as such Palps was playing with Maul just as I interpreted the scene in TCW cartoon. As such the book doesn't contradict the show it only supports my analasis of the scene and shows that I saw exactly what they were trying to convey

[LadyKulvax]

Movies>TCW>Books.

 

Novelizations of the Clone Wars and of the movies are on the same level of canon as their visual counterparts.

 

And better yet, that quote in Wolf's post is absolutely in no way contradictory to the visual duel, instead it only removes any doubt or interpretation and makes it clear that Sidious played with them like a child playing with toys, which makes complete sense from any canonical standpoint.

[Selenial]

completely missed the whole "secret apprentice" thing we know maul dies before the end of the clone wars so we know that he did have a use for him.... Sidious didn't kill maul thus completely debunking your thought that sidious didn't want the 2 of them running around at the same time clearly they were so clearly he didnt have a problem with it. IF maul was best Sidious would have made him his apprentice because that's what sidious does.

 

Oh my god...

 

Firstly, I asked you to drop this already.

 

But if I REALLY have to spell it out for you...

 

Maul shows up later on after ROTS, we know this, it was thought to be a doppleganger or a clone, or a cyborg, but it's hugely possible that it's the real deal.

 

Secondly, he COULD NOT HAVE MAUL AS AN APPRENTICE WITHOUT RUINING THE ENTIRE CLONE WAR.

 

Grevious would not follow Maul

The Seperatist Council would not allow some random new guy who's never shown any degree or ability in politics to lead them.

If Maul suddenly became the head of the CIS many planets would leave and a lot of Palpatines work undone.

 

The only reason he took on Anakin was because Dooku wasn't needed, and he wanted to bring the war to a close soon.

[Selenial]

Novelizations of the Clone Wars and of the movies are on the same level of canon as their visual counterparts.

 

And better yet, that quote in Wolf's post is absolutely in no way contradictory to the visual duel, instead it only removes any doubt or interpretation and makes it clear that Sidious played with them like a child playing with toys, which makes complete sense from any canonical standpoint.

 

There were some differences between areas of that book and TCW... I assumed that put the entire thing on a lower scale...

 

If not, then I apologize and I got it wrong. However the book doesn't invalidate the post I made.

 

Palpatine playing with them would easily refer to his ability to decimate them with the force whenever he chose, it doesn't say he wasn't all out trying Saber-wise.

 

However, Still not sure why we're doing this. Already said that it's not really important, as no one here is on callibur with Sidious (Obviously), it all just originated from a couple comments.

 

That still, technically haven't been invalidated.

[Beniboybling]

What evidence? I would think that he was at his height in TPM. Where did he get additional training? where did he get the ability to pull on more power from the force when he LOST living tissue something that caused Vader to be nocked down a couple pegs until he learned to deal with it after 20 years. Is it just because he did well against a palps that may or may not have been holding back? Was it because he did well against an Obi-wan who was still transitioning into the Soresu master we would come to know him as and whom Maul was winning against until he became to cocky? what evidence?

Its actually been stated that Maul grew in Force power over his year's in exile, ratifying the theory that he did indeed use his hate to make himself stronger. Regardless, its not as if Maul became weaker so the argument is pointless. Maul can do everything he did in TCW series, simple as.

 

EDIT: Taken from Wookieepedia:

 

As to how Maul survived, Jedi Master Salmara believed that it was Maul's hatred of Obi-Wan Kenobi that kept him alive, making him a far more powerful and dangerous adversary than he was before.

 

Its pretty obvious what the writers are trying to say here, Maul is bigger and badder.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Oh my god...

 

Firstly, I asked you to drop this already.

 

But if I REALLY have to spell it out for you...

 

Maul shows up later on after ROTS, we know this, it was thought to be a doppleganger or a clone, or a cyborg, but it's hugely possible that it's the real deal.

 

Secondly, he COULD NOT HAVE MAUL AS AN APPRENTICE WITHOUT RUINING THE ENTIRE CLONE WAR.

 

Grevious would not follow Maul

The Seperatist Council would not allow some random new guy who's never shown any degree or ability in politics to lead them.

If Maul suddenly became the head of the CIS many planets would leave and a lot of Palpatines work undone.

 

The only reason he took on Anakin was because Dooku wasn't needed, and he wanted to bring the war to a close soon.

 

Ok I am going to drop this for now but I would like to point out that if that was not a doppleganger or clone then that means Vader killed the real after TCW darth Maul just pointing that out.

And you apparently don't know the meaning of secret apprentice you know some one who DOESNT control the separatist and he still lets dooku do so he can have an apprentice that isn't in the fore front that's what Maul used to be he could have been again.

 

and going to say Thank you rayla.

[Selenial]

Ok I am going to drop this for now but I would like to point out that if that was not a doppleganger or clone then that means Vader killed the real after TCW darth Maul just pointing that out.

And you apparently don't know the meaning of secret apprentice you know some one who DOESNT control the separatist and he still lets dooku do so he can have an apprentice that isn't in the fore front that's what Maul used to be he could have been again.

 

and going to say Thank you rayla.

 

Oh right. I almost forget Palpatine totally didn't say: "You forget the first and Only reality of the Sith, there can only be two".

 

But thank you for dropping it.

[Selenial]

7 pages in and we haven't even brought up the factions

 

I love you guys

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ok I am going to drop this for now but I would like to point out that if that was not a doppleganger or clone then that means Vader killed the real after TCW darth Maul just pointing that out.

And you apparently don't know the meaning of secret apprentice you know some one who DOESNT control the separatist and he still lets dooku do so he can have an apprentice that isn't in the fore front that's what Maul used to be he could have been again.

 

and going to say Thank you rayla.

 

Nah the Maul Vader fought was a doppleganger.

[Beniboybling]

How does This sound like boredom?

That's what I was thinking... looks like exhaustion to me. His face even gives out a little sag.

 

Saying boredom is just stretching it too far.

 

Anyway does it really matter? Or are we forgetting Maul's actual skills.

[Selenial]

That's what I was thinking... looks like exhaustion to me. His face even gives out a little sag.

 

Saying boredom is just stretching it too far.

 

Anyway does it really matter? Or are we forgetting Maul's actual skills.

 

Dem l33t skillz.

 

So, any thoughts on my points?

[tunewalker]

Oh right. I almost forget Palpatine totally didn't say: "You forget the first and Only reality of the Sith, there can only be two".

 

But thank you for dropping it.

 

OK going to get food going to start a different thread on this later just to point out all of the problems with that I will be back.

[LadyKulvax]

There were some differences between areas of that book and TCW... I assumed that put the entire thing on a lower scale...

 

Exactly the same case in the movie novelizations.

 

But to quote Leland Chee: "Try to look at it like this, the movies are the absolute canon, the books are the EU variations of those movies, they help take the opinions out of canon and ultimately make for a much clearer view of battles, etc... that come down to visual interpretation when seen in the film such as Master Windu vs the Emperor.

The novelizations help us see what is really going on and not just what we think is going on.

Edited September 24, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Novelizations of the Clone Wars and of the movies are on the same level of canon as their visual counterparts.

 

And better yet, that quote in Wolf's post is absolutely in no way contradictory to the visual duel, instead it only removes any doubt or interpretation and makes it clear that Sidious played with them like a child playing with toys, which makes complete sense from any canonical standpoint.

Getting carried away we are.

 

Nowhere in that extract is it stated that Sidious was toying with Maul, nowhere does it state that Sidious was holding anything back. All we see is Maul finding himself in a hopeless situation, and being overwhelmed. In fact it implies the exact opposite, as he doesn't seem weaker, slower or less skilled than he is portrayed elsewhere.

 

Given that, the book is largely irrelevant. The visual episode gives us all the information we need and I'd say Maul performed pretty well, he even managed to score a hit on Sidious. Obviously he is grossly outmatched at that is clear from the novel, but only an absolute master of saber combat could have held out so long.

 

Regardless, Selenial is right, this debate is pointless. I'm just going to go ahead and say I couldn't really care less about half of what has been discussed here, and it certainly won't be contributing much to the final score. But I say that for your own benefit, because I don't want potential argument to be wasted, or your time.

 

So instead, lets consider how Maul would fare against the Undying Brotherhood, rather than the unrelated topic of just what went down between his fight with Sidious. Is Maul still a master swordsmen either way? Yes. So lets roll with that.

[Beniboybling]

Which still doesn't make sense to me.

Why? Standard Rule of Two is it not?

[Selenial]

So instead, lets consider how Maul would fare against the Undying Brotherhood, rather than the unrelated topic of just what went down between his fight with Sidious. Is Maul still a master swordsmen either way? Yes. So lets roll with that.

 

He'd demolish Vindicaa....

 

And Malgus would go down pretty smoothly from Maul me'thinks, especially if Maul was accompanied by (even such a small amount as) 2 Sith Assassins...

 

PS: I need to think of a Darth name for Maul...