The State Of PvP ( Warzones ) - Brackets Desperately Needed!

[Nyxypet]

When most ppl hit 50 then I believe most ppl will be ...50! Meaning that most ppl will be ... thats right 50 not 10. Bad logic there since the game is just a few days from launch and the population is at a low level with some ppl ahead of the leveling curve. Perhaps you should wait and have some faith is the decisions cause currenly most ppl are actually happy with this system.

 

At least give it some time and let them get some data and polish as needed.

 

 

 

My logic is that this game isn't a game where everyone who is ever going to play this game started when we all started.... not everyone is going to only play one character and never make a new one... so there should always be new people and new lower levels. How fast will people get turned off that have enjoyed pvp in tons of other games and realize how broken the system is and not play anymore. There goes the community. There goes the game. Its silly to think all those people shouldn't play the game because they arn't good. How would anyone ever know because they have 6 skills on their bar vs 20 and everyone thinks that's ok.

[Tharenisis]

My logic is that this game isn't a game where everyone who is ever going to play this game started when we all started.... not everyone is going to only play one character and never make a new one... so there should always be new people and new lower levels. How fast will people get turned off that have enjoyed pvp in tons of other games and realize how broken the system is and not play anymore. There goes the community. There goes the game. Its silly to think all those people shouldn't play the game because they arn't good. How would anyone ever know because they have 6 skills on their bar vs 20 and everyone thinks that's ok.

 

 

Accept your logic is still flawed, your assuming that it will ALWAYS be 10 lvl 50s, vs. 10 level 10's... There will be 20s, 30s, 40s, mixed in there too... I have yet to fight a match that was that setup, and I have yet fought in a match that my team was utterly destroyed. I've seen a few 50s, I've seen a lot of 40+, and a ton of 30+, ON BOTH TEAMS...

 

I'm sorry, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes here, but I can't really see the problem.

[Grimmfang]

Your not going to be able to put yourself in her shoes until you get roflstomped like the link to the score they are showing as a example.

[AkihiroKytori]

A mix of level 10's - 30's for example would be more balanced than a mix of level 10's - 50's, especially when the randomizer throws 4+ level 40+'s on a team and maybe 1 level 40+ or less on the other team.

 

I don't play the warzones for the easy button. I play it for a challenge. But again, if it stays like this, its tailoring to those who uber grind to 50 then stomp the lower levels rather than the people who roll newer toons or take their time leveling so they can enjoy the story. It also ignores new players as well.

 

No one is saying make it level 10's - 20's in one bracket. With level 10's through 30's its challenging but you have a chance of actually surviving.

 

On the topic of skills. How many stuns does a level 50 have compared to a level 25 for example? How many stuns does a level 25 have over a level 10. Its simple math.

 

Either way, lets make sure not to be hostile or accuse people of being un-skilled or "noobs" That isnt the reason this thread was started.

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

[Soljin]

Let me start off by saying that I enjoy the Warzone PvP tremendously in SWTOR part of the time.

 

There are issues I see with the Warzone PvP and I know I am not alone. Take a quick look at how many threads there are addressing the issue of bolstering, bracketing, looking at the massive bonuses people gain from gear and abilities completely negating stat bolstering, ect.

 

I know there are those who will say there is nothing wrong with Warzone PvP but let me give you a different perspective. The game opens Warzone PvP up for you at level 10, at level 10 you have crap gear almost all of the time, you have very few abilities and have just picked your specialization. You are at many disadvantages with players 10+ levels higher than you, just to name a few:

 

1. You don't have the same experience with the character/class as someone 10+ levels than you
   
2. Your gear bonuses will be much less than someone 10+ levels than you ( Even if you have the best gear for your level )
   
3. You are severely limited on abilities compared to someone 10+ levels than you
   

 

Of course you need to gain experience at Warzone PvP with your toon, and until you do you wont be the best player, however you are severely hampered by gear and abilities.

 

Now, two or three people out of the enemy team being 10+ levels higher than you is difficult but can be a nice challenge. However, when the average level of the entire enemy team is 10-20+ that of your team. You get rolled and its pointless. Why make a VERY fun element of the game a constant frustration?

 

Bracketing

Bracketing can be a useful tool because:

1. It keeps players with roughly the same range of abilities and or gear will be able to play together
   
2. It removes the massive amount of frustration a level 10 or level 20 feels when trying to play a round of Warzone PvP
   
3. It keeps people who are more experienced together while allowing those who have limited experience to learn and get better
   
4. A level 50 ganking a level 12 is not elite, its pointless
   
5. It will make more people prone to playing Warzone PvP
   
6. It will actually be a consistently playable element of the game for all level/experience levels.
   

 

Now, for those of you who think it is perfect as it is. Go roll a new toon, take it to level 15, and go join a Warzone PvP match without bringing level 40+ guild mates with you. See how balanced it really is.

 

I love SWTOR, I am a consistent fan of bioware products, however this element of SWTOR should most definitely be revamped and brackets should be a serious consideration. If it isn't, you are going to have a small group of people playing Warzone PvP, and it is going to be a wasted element. From the standpoint of a community member, I would love to see as many people jump into warzones as possible, it means more matches and means more Warzone PvP fun!

 

I am going to link below a round of huttball I played with friends, your going to see what a match of level 20-30's can do vs a team of 40-50's. You can think its because we suck, but before level 40+'s were in the same matches with us, it was fairly balanced on wins / losses for either side.

 

 

http://www.tave-atsvara.com/images/tor/Screenshot_2011-12-21_22_52_51_896737.jpg

 

Take a look. Its nonsense.

 

Go to the WoW forums and read complaints about Twinks in Level Bracket PvP...Then realize you have made Twinking a permanent issue.

 

All you have to do to solve your complaints with the bolster system is play the game and Level......Temporary problem that you can solve VS Permanent problem TWINKs in Bracket PvP that WILL run in teams and decimate people just playing PvP "for fun" to level.

 

Your actually trying to break PvP for leveling not fix it. All becaue you were beat by someone higher level? Have you never been beat down quickly by someone lower level than yourself? Because I have many times.....

[Redtah]

An organized team of level 10's-30's with a 40 thrown in will still get rolled by an organized team of 30's-50's. Its simple math based upon the fact the bolstering does not factor in gear and abilities.

 

Bolster us to level 50 at mid-high level gear and multiply our abilities effects by 1.5-2x and it would be more balanced. However that becomes a logistical nightmare.

 

Better to bracket it so the Majority enjoys PvP, not just those in Pug stomping groups.

 

except for as far as I could tell I was doing more damage being bolstered at level 10 than I do now at level 38. Bolstering does actually take into account the massive difference in fact I am pretty sure the only thing bolstering doesn't account for is expertise. I had an easier time kill level 40s at 10 then I do now at 38 in warzones.

[Grimmfang]

Your not going to be able to put yourself in her shoes until you get roflstomped like the link to the score they are showing as a example.

[Tharenisis]

Go to the WoW forums and read complaints about Twinks in Level Bracket PvP...Then realize you have made Twinking a permanent issue.

 

All you have to do to solve your complaints with the bolster system is play the game and Level......Temporary problem that you can solve VS Permanent problem TWINKs in Bracket PvP that WILL run in teams and decimate people just playing PvP "for fun" to level.

 

Your actually trying to break PvP for leveling not fix it. All becaue you were beat by someone higher level? Have you never been beat down quickly by someone lower level than yourself? Because I have many times.....

 

 

I am highly surprised I didn't think about that...

 

QFT

[Nyxypet]

Go to the WoW forums and read complaints about Twinks in Level Bracket PvP...Then realize you have made Twinking a permanent issue.

 

All you have to do to solve your complaints with the bolster system is play the game and Level......Temporary problem that you can solve VS Permanent problem TWINKs in Bracket PvP that WILL run in teams and decimate people just playing PvP "for fun" to level.

 

Your actually trying to break PvP for leveling not fix it. All becaue you were beat by someone higher level? Have you never been beat down quickly by someone lower level than yourself? Because I have many times.....

 

 

The difference between that and this... you get so much exp from owning in pvp that you can't just sit at the highest level in the bracket and hope to mass own everyone. In wow you could a lot easier... at least a long time ago you could. Apply the bolster system to brackets if thats what you are worried about... but that really takes out the challenge then. Twinks are only a challenge not impossible lol.

[Tharenisis]

Your not going to be able to put yourself in her shoes until you get roflstomped like the link to the score they are showing as a example.

 

 

I don't think its possible for me to be THAT terrible...I can' be pretty bad sometimes when i'm tired...but I still don't think I would be that bad.

[AkihiroKytori]

Go to the WoW forums and read complaints about Twinks in Level Bracket PvP...Then realize you have made Twinking a permanent issue.

 

All you have to do to solve your complaints with the bolster system is play the game and Level......Temporary problem that you can solve VS Permanent problem TWINKs in Bracket PvP that WILL run in teams and decimate people just playing PvP "for fun" to level.

 

Your actually trying to break PvP for leveling not fix it. All becaue you were beat by someone higher level? Have you never been beat down quickly by someone lower level than yourself? Because I have many times.....

 

Im not saying we should break PvP.

 

All you have to do to solve your complaints with the bolster system is play the game and Level......Temporary problem that you can solve VS Permanent problem TWINKs in Bracket PvP that WILL run in teams and decimate people just playing PvP "for fun" to level.

 

What you seem to be saying here is, come get slaughtered so level 40+'s can get pretty much freebie gear, credits, and experience, or dont PvP until you are level 40+? Or am I getting what you are saying wrong here?

 

In reguards to this temp problem. Are you saying if we arent level 40+ we shouldnt do warzones? If that is the case, why not bracket it so you a level 40+ can PvP and those who are lower levels can enjoy the element of the game as well...

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

[Tharenisis]

The difference between that and this... you get so much exp from owning in pvp that you can't just sit at the highest level in the bracket and hope to mass own everyone. In wow you could a lot easier... at least a long time ago you could. Apply the bolster system to brackets if thats what you are worried about... but that really takes out the challenge then. Twinks are only a challenge not impossible lol.

 

 

 

If they put in brackets it would mean that they support twinking, thus they would probably provide a way to turn off xp.

[Tharenisis]

Im not saying we should break PvP.

 

 

 

In reguards to this temp problem. Are you saying if we arent level 40+ we shouldnt do warzones? If that is the case, why not bracket it so you a level 40+ can PvP and those who are lower levels can enjoy an element of the game as well...

 

 

NO I think what he meant to say was to put some finger grease into it and try. Even losses give decent xp...

 

Come on guys, its a game, your not always going to be out on top. So what if they are higher level. Freaking swing your light saber or power shoot your blaster at them and HAVE SOME FUN. Even the losses are funner then hell..

 

Seriously if your THAT terrible at pvp that it is NO FUN AT ALL...then you shouldn't be pvping in the first place.

[Nyxypet]

If they put in brackets it would mean that they support twinking, thus they would probably provide a way to turn off xp.

 

Can't twink if you get so much xp from pvpving you level out of the bracket. Why would they just randomly turn of xp if they bracket... that silly to think they would ever do that just because they added brackets. Thats just another excuse. Was a nice excuse to try and use but once again none of these excuse work out mathematically or logically. Also... not terrible

 

 

Also... you have guilds teaming up who are all 50 ops group. There went random That's whats happening now. And don't tell me its because they are a guild and working together I know they are and that helps. But if you have another guild that all queues together with say lvl 20-29's and always coming up against those guilds that queue as 50's ops how is that fair? Pvp broken. enough said. There goes randomness of teams, there goes fairness, their goes challenges. Pvp is broken. People can keep coming up with new excuses of why their lvl 50's should be allowed to gank level 10's and it's still going to be broken and wrong.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Nyxypet

[Grimmfang]

Dunno.. really seems that all the people that are seriously against this just seem to be farming the gear and want to do so before anything is fixed or it's changed.. who'se looking for the easy buttons now?

[Happy_Puppy]

The ques would take less time if more people would play. A way of achieving this goal would be bracketing so that people below level 40+ can enjoy the PvP.

 

I know I did in two beta weekends and early play.

 

 

You feel this way because:

1. You are a level 40+ that ganks lower levels with a team full of 40+'s
   
2. You group consistently with 40+'s
   

 

Constructive discussion is one thing, having a 4-chan "I am uber 1337" attitude is another thing entirely.

 

What? No bracting would slow que times by a huge amount. Pre-Cross server BG's in wow you could have hours of no BG poping in lower brackets.

 

Also no having brackets means no twinks. No twinks is a good thing. It means that lower level's will find gear inteh AH in there price range vs what happened to WoW where level 19 green item would sell for 100+ gold only due to twinks and there owners willing to pay.

 

The only bracket that may work would be something like 10-49 and a end game level 50 bracket.

[Tharenisis]

Can't twink if you get so much xp from pvpving you level out of the bracket. Was a nice excuse to try and use but once again none of these excuse work out mathematically or logically. Also... not terrible

 

 

Did you even read the quote you quoted?

[AkihiroKytori]

NO I think what he meant to say was to put some finger grease into it and try. Even losses give decent xp...

 

Come on guys, its a game, your not always going to be out on top. So what if they are higher level. Freaking swing your light saber or power shoot your blaster at them and HAVE SOME FUN. Even the losses are funner then hell..

 

If your PvPing for the experience, credits, gear alone, then yes. You can get ok experience from a loss. However you don't get very good exp if your team is slaughtered over and over.

 

In regards to:

Seriously if your THAT terrible at pvp that it is NO FUN AT ALL...then you shouldn't be pvping in the first place.

 

Until the 40+'s were filling teams and stomping lower level teams, killing the odd 40+ here and there wasnt a problem. But when your entire team is slaughtered over and over. Basicly what your are saying here is, if your not 40+ or running with a team of 40+'s most of the time, you suck at PvP and shouldnt be PvPing.

 

Again look at my post below. If you feel we shouldn't experience a part of the game we want to in an enjoyable fashion, why not put brackets in?

[NoxiousAlby]

Let me start off by saying Hutt Ball is a brilliant concept, new & refreshing.

 

Completely agree with OP, regardless of bolstering a lvl 10 toon will not be as well equiped as a lvl 35 character. Only thing ruining the experience is the massive gap bracket

[Nyxypet]

Let me start off by saying Hutt Ball is a brilliant concept, new & refreshing.

 

Completely agree with OP, regardless of bolstering a lvl 10 toon will not be as well equiped as a lvl 35 character. Only thing ruining the experience is the massive gap bracket

 

 

Hutt ball is fun ^_^ agreed!

[AkihiroKytori]

Lets look at gear shall we?

 

Gear isnt a factor on the bolstering...

 

Lets look at the gear stats of a level 50 light armor piece:

 

Battlemaster Force-Master's Vestments

Binds on Pickup

Chest

456 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+84 Endurance

+81 Willpower

+50 Expertise Rating

+74 Critical Rating

+51 Alacrity Rating

Item Modifications

Armoring (58)

+31 Endurance

+33 Willpower

+50 Expertise Rating

Mod (58)

+29 Endurance

+48 Willpower

+37 Critical Rating

Enhancement (58)

+24 Endurance

+37 Critical Rating

+51 Alacrity Rating

Augment: Open

Requires Level 50

Requires Light Armor

 

Now, lets look at a level 25's light armor chest piece:

Robe of Dark Delirium

Binds on Pickup

Chest

193 Armor (Rating 64)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+27 Endurance

+33 Willpower

+15 Critical Rating

Item Modifications

Armoring (26)

+10 Endurance

+15 Willpower

Mod (26)

+7 Endurance

+18 Willpower

Enhancement (26)

+10 Endurance

+15 Critical Rating

Augment: Open

Requires Level 25

Requires Light Armor

 

 

The bolster system doesn't factor this in. Look at the massive difference in stat bonuses... Thats one piece of gear. One. Thats not even factoring in abilities.

[Peshmerga]

Oh how I feel your pain. In my server the same few 50's absolutely dominate PVP and it's game after game with them ha. What can ya do?

[Tharenisis]

Lets look at gear shall we?

 

Gear isnt a factor on the bolstering...

 

Lets look at the gear stats of a level 50 light armor piece:

 

Battlemaster Force-Master's Vestments

Binds on Pickup

Chest

456 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+84 Endurance

+81 Willpower

+50 Expertise Rating

+74 Critical Rating

+51 Alacrity Rating

Item Modifications

Armoring (58)

+31 Endurance

+33 Willpower

+50 Expertise Rating

Mod (58)

+29 Endurance

+48 Willpower

+37 Critical Rating

Enhancement (58)

+24 Endurance

+37 Critical Rating

+51 Alacrity Rating

Augment: Open

Requires Level 50

Requires Light Armor

 

Now, lets look at a level 25's light armor chest piece:

Robe of Dark Delirium

Binds on Pickup

Chest

193 Armor (Rating 64)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+27 Endurance

+33 Willpower

+15 Critical Rating

Item Modifications

Armoring (26)

+10 Endurance

+15 Willpower

Mod (26)

+7 Endurance

+18 Willpower

Enhancement (26)

+10 Endurance

+15 Critical Rating

Augment: Open

Requires Level 25

Requires Light Armor

 

 

The bolster system doesn't factor this in. Look at the massive difference in stat bonuses... Thats one piece of gear. One. Thats not even factoring in abilities.

 

So you want to be handed level 10 pvp gear with level 50 equivalent stats...that's what I get from this.

[AkihiroKytori]

So you want to be handed level 10 pvp gear with level 50 equivalent stats...that's what I get from this.

 

No, I am saying that bracketing would balance things out so that someone with level 50 "uber" gear doesn't have 2x the stats because of their equipment.

 

That basicly nullifies the bolster. And again, we arent even factoring in that a level 40+ can have 4+ stuns and knockbacks ect. Where as a level 25 can have half of what a level 40+ has.

 

So you put level 10-30 in a bracket together. There is a challenge, but you arent drowning.

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

[JackKetch]

Gotta agree with the OP on this, and it becomes obvious if you have a cross-faction guild.

Played against a guildie who is a 4X republic jedi guardian, I'm a Sith Juggernaut and think I was lvl 24 during the warzone.

We were getting stomped so hard I asked him to meet me off to the side, not like his team needed him.

 

We hit each other with just Assault and Vicious Slash (and whatever the Jedi versions are called).

 

So same skills, same number of hits, same class,

heck I'm even copying his talents, just have less invested so far obviously.

Guess who walked away barely scratched and who stood waiting at the entry gate?

Fair fight? A challenge? Pure horse droppings.