No Intentional Hybrid Tax

[ImpactHound]

I'm just gonna go where the lions roar!

 

Refreshing post in a horrible thread. Thanks for this

[Minack]

It is actually not PuG PvP, considering whenver all of us are on we dominate anyone and everyone, sad be it that you don't know how to make full use of your skills.

 

Yes, Sent/Mara have more than one relative defensive ability, however most are excessively situational and lacking in the general purpose defensives of the Guard/Jugg, but you wish to split hairs so by all means continue. Exactly, group buffs /golfclap, while usefull, they are buff that are usefull while solo or in a group and become natural part of the rotation while playing one.

 

Really? Haven't completed high level content? Miss the NM OP comment? I was the main tank that went down when my healer got distracted by her husband asking her a question, as soon as I saw death was happenning I called out for a specific DPSer to change and taunt. Guess what? Boss died as I was scrapped off the floor. Yes, you can survive...for LONG? No of course not. But it works in a clinch when you go down and it can be rescued if you actually try and people co-ordinate for that last push. Hell no they won't survive for 10% but they will survive long enough (especially if the DPS guard/jugg has a shield gen equipped which in testing lowers DPS output by only 2-4% assuming you have augments and again this would be a designated individual). Those who cannot believe it can happen are those who really don't think outside the box or play with those able to adjust that fast. This game's nightmare mode is not that demanding, it really isn't when you compare it to Aion raids or DAoC raiding. You want to wave the flag some more, come back when you have to co-ordinate 6 tanks in rotation while accounting for randomized attack patterns in the boss with 2 random assault skills on the boss that will wipe out someone if the tanks don't keep a specific defensive skill ready to be used on the target of it, said skills being used so fast you need DPSers built from said tank classes to make additional use of the skill thanks to CD limitations. By comparison, these are easy raids.

 

FP's primary purpose is a peel, the PRIMARY purpose of the skill, yes...it has wonderfull application in huttball in covorering LARGE amounts of ground when used properly, or even to get to a turret quickly by leap>fp>leap>guard leap. I'm sorry did I just blow your mind? I speak of primary uses. You don't waste FP as an interupt unless you are a nub. If you are workign in conjunction with a team, FP will be used most often as nothing but a peel to buy breathing room. Sadly Minack, it sounds more like you don't know what you are talking about or are assuming far too much. I was speaking in primary purposes and general purposes of skills. When speaking of a skill, primary purpose is the defining point of the skill, as stated, FP is ment as a peel in PvP and as a gather skill forcing PvE enemies into AoE location/KBKO location. Other uses are secondary uses. I'm going to assume you are self righteously up in arms because you use it as an opener on slingers/snipers right? Yup...congratulations, that is known as situational use...a use that is, as stated, situational and not a primary purpose. Besides, in true group play your own ranged will worry about that individual and let you focus on the targets you CAN leap to with impunity, that sage/sorc hiding in the back always being the perfect target if you arent on guard duty needing to keep close to your own healer.

 

Of course, this is the main problem with speaking of PvP as everyone claims to be an expert and others simply don't know enough. The fact is I don't theorycraft without actually putting something into action. I try things out with my crew while fighting other organized groups. 4 on 4 and 8 on 8 deathmatch play on tatooine properly organized with everyone in TS (teams in there own rooms) to see how well certain things work and others which are oh so common in the PuGs that quite simply fail against an organized group. Take what is learned to the actual WZs and see how it plays out against both PuG crews and obviously organized pre-made crews. I am by no means an expert and regularly make my mistakes typically while laughing about how stupid the mistake was, however I also regularly see people claiming to be PvP gods who get rolled right over because they won't make use of their off-spec skills.

 

Again, you're using way too many words to just say "Hurf Blurf, I'm dumb."

 

I'm assuming (probably a mistake on my part) that you realize there is more to the tax problem than just Marauder/Jug. In your mind, what makes any particular so-called utility ability worth a DPS or defensive disparity? How do you even quantify that?

 

And you'll forgive me if I doubt your particular PvP and PvE prowess when you cannot even accurately describe Marauder v Jug defense. Either you didn't know how many cooldowns a marauder has--in which case you're ignorant of the class and therefore ill-qualified . Or you knew, but still chose to misrepresent the number of CDs--in which case you're just dishonest. Pick one. That's not splitting hairs; that's just due diligence.

 

Speaking of splitting hairs... Why don't you stop trying to move goalposts? I mean, we can argue over definitions and applications all day if you like. Hell, we'll even get Andryah in here and make it a threesome. Sound good?

 

I await your next wall of text with bated breath.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Minack

[zachass]

If we heal to full the hybrid tax, then the unintentionally intentional class balance issues will insert wall of text here.

[ImpactHound]

If we heal to full the hybrid tax, then the unintentionally intentional class balance issues will insert wall of text here.

 

5-star post

[TUXs]

Well I have known this about you for a long time.. but it bears repeating... you have a very limited and local (self) view of the classes. Not big picture at all. Which is OK.. you are entitled to take any view you like. But it makes conversation with you kind of pointless.. because you really are not interested in the wider view of class balance across the classes, the encounters, and the rest of the games content. You want to make it all about NiM Nightmare in one paragraph and PvP in another. Very disconnected thinking IMO.. and hence you will never see anything even remotely close to the perspective or choices the devs face balancing and managing the entire game rather then your little fish bowl.

 

Uh.. no. I am acknowledging that they cannot heal nor provide much in the way of utility augmentation to a group other then a debuff here and there.. which every class can do in one way or another. They have one simple and clear role.. dps well and don't steal the agro.

 

LOL...a clear personal attack, what do you refer to them as, "passive aggressive"? Ad hominem? So nice of you to have double standards like you do Andryah. Please do not pretend to know me nor my motivations...you could not be more incorrect in your assumptions.

 

And what are you talking about? I have ONLY been discussing this from a PvE perspective...what does this have to do with PvP? Have I even mentioned PvP? Assume less, stick to the topic more. NiM is where the issues are Andryah...NiM content IS the problem. Nobody misses a few hundred DPS in a freaking SM Ops. The issue exists at the upper end of this...not the lower PuG fluff content.

 

And the last part...this is why it's clear to me that you have no grasp on this debate. EVERY DPS in a HM/NiM Ops has ONE CLEAR ROLE...to DPS. DPS only DPS, Healers only heal and Tanks only tank! That is the ONLY thing they should focus on...the ONLY THING! Utility skills aren't even a consideration.

 

That "utility" that you think is so valuable is worthless unless there's a screw up...at which point, 95%+ of the time, it's a wipe. No "utility" is worth sacrificing the main role. The Devs classify those "utility" skills as part of their defensive arsenal, not group "utility" skills.

 

I'll ask you again...have you EVER attempted a NiM Ops (EV and KP don't count)? What's the hardest HM Ops you've done? What role did you take? Give me something to verify this with...nobody seems to know you outside of these forums, you don't list your toon names or guild...what server do you play on? What classes do you have? What guild are you a part of?

[TUXs]

Might I make a suggestion to those who are annoyed at Andryah or any other poster. Don't respond. Just discuss the topic and act like the poster who annoys you doesn't exist. I am always surprised at people letting Andryah troll them for 5-10 pages.

 

You're correct. However, after a personal attack on me, I felt I needed to respond.

[LydMekk]

So, to sum up this thread: H2F ??

[Minack]

If we heal to full the hybrid tax, then the unintentionally intentional class balance issues will insert wall of text here.

 

It might disturb the purity of Don Quixote's force-pushing fishbowl stance.

[TUXs]

So, to sum up this thread: H2F ??

 

Pay attention will ya...it's H2F and L2P...

[Minack]

Pay attention will ya...it's H2F and L2P...

 

He probably has a perception problem.

[TUXs]

He probably has a perception problem.

 

I clearly missed that opportunity lol

[Andryah]

And the last part...this is why it's clear to me that you have no grasp on this debate. EVERY DPS in a HM/NiM Ops has ONE CLEAR ROLE...to DPS. DPS only DPS, Healers only heal and Tanks only tank! That is the ONLY thing they should focus on...the ONLY THING! Utility skills aren't even a consideration.

 

And this comment exemplifies my point. There is more to the game then HM/NiM. Thinking any discussion about balance or taxes or any other crab walk around the real issue, can be distilled down to very narrow segments of game play and content is exactly my point about they way you express yourself on these things.

 

Nobody is arguing that DPS should/should_not focus on DPS in particular encounters. By the same token, nobody should be pretending that particular encounters represent any sort of fair context for this petty complaint about taxes. Nobody is arguing that utility is of value/no_value in some encounters in the game. But that does not mean that utility has no value or place in playing this game TUXs.

 

The core issue is players choosing a known hybrid type class (rather then a pure dps class) and then wanting the ability to spec and run the hybrid as a pure dps class. Some players feel they were "tricked" into their choice by faux promises from the devs the all classes could DPS equally.

 

Now pay attention for one minute please I FULLY support the desire by players to have the option to spec into a hybrid they have invested their time and energy in...... such that it can be competitive full DPS for when they want to play that role (as long as they also forfeit utility in that spec).. and I have suggested in multiple threads multiple times that I do support it and how I feel Bioware should address the desire rather then tip-toeing with micro-balance adjustments. The elephant in the room is that some players want to keep the utility AND get the competitive DPS too. They want it all.. all the time.

 

You really are not listening. You are too busy protesting "taxation".

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[oaceen]

Refreshing post in a horrible thread. Thanks for this

 

yeah, i'm really sad how this all turned out lol.

 

i don't know why everyone's focusing on semantics and arguing 'well give up your heals if you want to do more dps'

 

that was all the discussion from last week. time to move on to the new one: no hybrid tax confirmed (again).

 

i think that once flyby is 'fixed' (or nerfed if you want to call it that too), i doubt that gunslingers/snipers will have such a disparaging lead anymore anyway. it's not intended to be used on a single target, so it's more than likely not even a part of their metrics, and probably a good explanation as to why they're saying things like 'full lethality/dirty fighting does more single-target damage than the hybrid'

they're probably using all of the proper set bonuses as well (which is really great for lethality/dirty fighting, not so good for anything else). but so when some classes overperform, we as players see that as the baseline to strive to achieve and calculate 5% from that. we don't see it as above the intended design.

 

 

 

and i think i would suggest instead of just not quoting someone you don't like, stop responding altogether. trolls will be trolls, but only if you let them.

Edited September 11, 2013 by oaceen

[Berjiz]

Yes, Sent/Mara have more than one relative defensive ability, however most are excessively situational and lacking in the general purpose defensives of the Guard/Jugg, but you wish to split hairs so by all means continue. Exactly, group buffs /golfclap, while usefull, they are buff that are usefull while solo or in a group and become natural part of the rotation while playing one.

Situational? Only one of them is(force camo) the other ones are either almost general(saber ward) or completly general. Mara/Sent probably has the best defensive cd suite in the whole game. Force cammo is useful at some places though, for instance you can take the spines on styrak with it if you are doing the one tank tactic. It can also be used on mechanics like huge grenade, lignting field and kephess jump/laser.

 

Really? Haven't completed high level content? Miss the NM OP comment? I was the main tank that went down when my healer got distracted by her husband asking her a question, as soon as I saw death was happenning I called out for a specific DPSer to change and taunt. Guess what? Boss died as I was scrapped off the floor. Yes, you can survive...for LONG? No of course not. But it works in a clinch when you go down and it can be rescued if you actually try and people co-ordinate for that last push. Hell no they won't survive for 10% but they will survive long enough (especially if the DPS guard/jugg has a shield gen equipped which in testing lowers DPS output by only 2-4% assuming you have augments and again this would be a designated individual). Those who cannot believe it can happen are those who really don't think outside the box or play with those able to adjust that fast. This game's nightmare mode is not that demanding, it really isn't when you compare it to Aion raids or DAoC raiding. You want to wave the flag some more, come back when you have to co-ordinate 6 tanks in rotation while accounting for randomized attack patterns in the boss with 2 random assault skills on the boss that will wipe out someone if the tanks don't keep a specific defensive skill ready to be used on the target of it, said skills being used so fast you need DPSers built from said tank classes to make additional use of the skill thanks to CD limitations. By comparison, these are easy raids.

In those kinds of situations a mara can do the same but better, however it is slightly more prone to errors from the players. The mara is melee and usually high dps which means that there is a high chance the mara is going to be the one that gets the aggro. If you got enough cordination you can also make so that the others use the threat drops to increase the chance of that happening and other melees backaway to 10 meter range. The maras execellent cds are great for this. Just hit saber ward+cloak of pain and then ur+medpack when you get low or ur straight away if enraged boss. It's pretty much guaranteed that the mara will survive 5+ secs even on enraged bosses.

 

Also doing a quick taunt like that with a sin/shadow has a high chance of insta death since it takes a few secs to get dark charge up and deflection isn't pure dr. The chance of an unmigated hit is about 10-20% and thats assuming it isn't f/t. Those hits are going to hurt a lot. In the time it takes to taunt and get dark charge up you are likely to be splattered. It has some uses though because you can sacrifice yourself and turn the boss away from the others, it's also know who gets the aggro which healps the healers.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Why is no-one replying to my last reply ?

This thing is going round in circles meanwhile i tried to get deeper into the problems' core ...

[CosmicKat]

The whole concept of "class balance" is/was centered around the concept of all classes being useful to a group. TOR and most other modern MMO's barely play lip service to group content anymore and "class balance" is now defined as all classes being equally powerful at all times. This is a completely impossible goal without making every class exactly the same thing.

 

The generic-ness of TOR classes is bad enough already. There are no racial differences. The mechanical focus on "one stat to rule them all" means all characters of a particular class are going to be essentially the same.

 

Power gamers and min/max'ers will always find a hole to exploit to be uber. It's what they do.

 

IMO, MMO's would be far better off going back to the days when healers were toast without help, but everyone else was toast without healers, etc.

 

They are all, still, just copying the EQ system, which was copied from DnD, in games that no longer play anything like EQ or DnD. That's why "balance" is unattainable, and it will suck if they ever do attain it anyway.

[ImpactHound]

The whole concept of "class balance" is/was centered around the concept of all classes being useful to a group. TOR and most other modern MMO's barely play lip service to group content anymore and "class balance" is now defined as all classes being equally powerful at all times. This is a completely impossible goal without making every class exactly the same thing.

 

The generic-ness of TOR classes is bad enough already. There are no racial differences. The mechanical focus on "one stat to rule them all" means all characters of a particular class are going to be essentially the same.

 

Power gamers and min/max'ers will always find a hole to exploit to be uber. It's what they do.

 

IMO, MMO's would be far better off going back to the days when healers were toast without help, but everyone else was toast without healers, etc.

 

They are all, still, just copying the EQ system, which was copied from DnD, in games that no longer play anything like EQ or DnD. That's why "balance" is unattainable, and it will suck if they ever do attain it anyway.

 

Item and class balance in EQ was atrocious. They just kept making new classes and races anyways and they're 20+ expansions in and still profit. Maybe there's a lesson in that.

 

D&D did and still gets away with wonky balance because not only did they set the standard & core mechanics, but their was always room for adjustment and re-interpretation by the GM on the fly. If only there were MMOs that cared enough to have GMs take an active but invisible role in making thempark gameplay fun by shaking the stage alittle.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ImpactHound

[CosmicKat]

Item and class balance in EQ was atrocious. They just kept making new classes and races anyways and they're 20+ expansions in and still profit. Maybe there's a lesson in that.

 

D&D did and still gets away with wonky balance because not only did they set the standard & core mechanics, but their was always room for adjustment and re-interpretation by the GM on the fly. If only there were MMOs that cared enough to have GMs take an active but invisible role in making thempark gameplay fun by shaking the stage alittle.

 

Both of those games also realized that not everyone gets their kicks in playing the uberest of uber classes. Lots of people actually enjoy playing characters with limitations. Any maroon can play a barbarian or orc tank, it takes a special talent and a special kind of crazy to play an elf or gnome warrior.

 

EQ's worst sin in the balance department was in double penalizing the non-optimal choices. An elf ranger, for example, was harder to play than a human warrior, but took a penalty for being an elf, and one for being a ranger.

Edited September 11, 2013 by CosmicKat

[TUXs]

The core issue is players choosing a known hybrid type class (rather then a pure dps class) and then wanting the ability to spec and run the hybrid as a pure dps class. Some players feel they were "tricked" into their choice by faux promises from the devs the all classes could DPS equally.

 

Now pay attention for one minute please I FULLY support the desire by players to have the option to spec into a hybrid they have invested their time and energy in...... such that it can be competitive full DPS for when they want to play that role (as long as they also forfeit utility in that spec).. and I have suggested in multiple threads multiple times that I do support it and how I feel Bioware should address the desire rather then tip-toeing with micro-balance adjustments. The elephant in the room is that some players want to keep the utility AND get the competitive DPS too. They want it all.. all the time.

 

You really are not listening. You are too busy protesting "taxation".

 

A known hybrid? What the hell are you talking about? If I spec into a tree that is a stated DPS tree, what do you mean "hybrid"? Isn't that EXACTLY why we have the skill trees Andryah? Isn't their very purpose to define our role? If not, why even have them? Why make me choose a "faux" role if I can't perform any role adequately?

 

Are you suggesting that no matter which AC I select as a Trooper, I should have a DPS penalty because I could have gone tank or healer? That is EXACTLY the opposite of what the Devs state in this VERY post - please re-read the 1st post again - pay very special attention to Eric's 1st line. Despite everything you want, the penalty is NOT intended!

 

Nobody is asking for it all - we ALL have defensive abilities meant to keep us alive a little bit longer...EVERY class! If there isn't a DPS Vanguard there to throw a taunt if a Tank falls, the aggro would simply go to the highest DPS person...it's really not as special of a "utility" skill as you keep pretending it to be.

 

There is no elephant in the room. The elephant is imaginary and only you are seeing it because you like to argue against anything players want. There's no need to do something as STUPID as you're suggesting like locking out "utility" skills on classes to bring them up to par with other DPS classes...that is an absolutely absurd suggestion and a crap ton of busy work that doesn't need to be done.

 

I AM listening and I DO understand the issue and what the Devs have stated. You clearly don't. It was clear from your first comment that you were just looking for a new argument to spearhead.

[TUXs]

Why is no-one replying to my last reply ?

This thing is going round in circles meanwhile i tried to get deeper into the problems' core ...

 

Two people did, they quoted you even You were exactly right - it's a stupid argument and you highlighted the stupidity of it well imo.

[oaceen]

So it's confusing to me why there's a couple people in this thread trying to defend a stance that isn't intended by the devs. They think they're defending BioWare but what they're doing is defending an accident.

 

this a good summation of the thread lol

[Andryah]

A known hybrid? What the hell are you talking about? If I spec into a tree that is a stated DPS tree, what do you mean "hybrid"? Isn't that EXACTLY why we have the skill trees Andryah? Isn't their very purpose to define our role? If not, why even have them? Why make me choose a "faux" role if I can't perform any role adequately?

 

The current skill trees in fact deny what you want/demand for specific encounters like HM/NiM to some classes.

 

So.. we have a topic title about a "hybrid tax", and you continually ad hominem attack me, accusing me of not understanding the topic and you claim to know exactly what it is about and what it means.. and then you pretend to not know that the term "hybrid means" and demand I define it for you. Dude.. you've gone completely off the bridge and into the ditch. Just stop.

 

My view on this.. which you are ignoring is that Bioware is nibbling around the edges on the issue.. when what people want is to spec full DPS on a class where you can spec in a variety of hybrid ways. I support their desire and have suggested it is more then micro-tweaks here and there to get to what people actually want. All their micro-tweaking is going to do is nerf a class that has better dps by giving it more utility and pulling away dps. That is the flaw.. and to take your pet example HM/NiM where utility is of marginal value.. it's an absurd approach by the devs.

 

I'm supportive of and am a proponent for change to how classes are designed.. such that people like you who want pure dps and zero wasted class power on utility for HM/NiM (and have it be competitive with actual pure dps classes) CAN HAVE WHAT YOU WANT.

 

I am fine if you want to disagree with my proposed approach and pitch your own. But please.. stop with the personal attacks and attempts at character assassination. No... scratch that.. I'm putting you on /ignore and I'm not taking you back off.. regardless of the good past history we have had together on the forum. Goodbye.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[Spatology]

Class balance only exist because of NiM content/arena's. where people push content and they're characters to the max.

 

Would a better solution be to add a knight healer and a smuggler tank and two pure dps for the consular and trooper?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Spatology

[TUXs]

you continually ad hominem attack me

Wow lol, lets count your personal attacks shall we?

Dude.. you've gone completely off the bridge and into the ditch.

You really are not listening. You are too busy protesting "taxation".

Well I have known this about you for a long time.. but it bears repeating... you have a very limited and local (self) view of the classes. Not big picture at all. Which is OK.. you are entitled to take any view you like. But it makes conversation with you kind of pointless.. because you really are not interested in the wider view of class balance across the classes, the encounters, and the rest of the games content. You want to make it all about NiM Nightmare in one paragraph and PvP in another. Very disconnected thinking IMO.. and hence you will never see anything even remotely close to the perspective or choices the devs face balancing and managing the entire game rather then your little fish bowl.

Not everyone thinks this way of course.. but there are a lot of them here that do.. and are not man enough to just admit it.

Odd statement.. but not surprising from you.

You are in no position to claim "ad hominem" attacks when that's the majority of what you've done in this very thread.

No... scratch that.. I'm putting you on /ignore and I'm not taking you back off.. regardless of the good past history we have had together on the forum. Goodbye.

Good move! I support that idea! Bye!

Edited September 11, 2013 by TUXs

[TUXs]

Class balance only exist because of NiM content/arena's. where people push content and they're characters to the max.

 

Would a better solution be to add a knight healer and a smuggler tank and two pure dps for the consular and trooper?

 

I don't think we need to do anything that drastic. NiM content pushes characters far enough as it is that there's no "gap" to off heal or off tank. DPS is what needs to be balanced...and not by a lot, it's just tweaks that should be easy to do imo.