The REAL Most Powerful Jedi Lightsaber Duelists

[Beniboybling]

Agreed. Although I would like to see more consideration given to some of the NJO masters, like Katarn and Saba.

Well I'm no expert on NJO, but from what I've been told Saba and Kyle and surpassed by Corran Horn. Horn bested Saba in a lightsaber duel (correct?) and Kyle Katarn just hasn't proven himself to be as impressive.

 

But anymore information/feats in Corran Horn would be most appreciated. I'm finding it quite difficult to place him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well I'm no expert on NJO, but from what I've been told Saba and Kyle and surpassed by Corran Horn. Horn bested Saba in a lightsaber duel (correct?) and Kyle Katarn just hasn't proven himself to be as impressive.

 

But anymore information/feats in Corran Horn would be most appreciated. I'm finding it quite difficult to place him.

 

This is why Kyle should have just stayed as a Rebel Agent, making him into a Jedi was just such a bad choice. Really almost ALL of the things Kyle did as a Jedi, he could have done the same as a Rebel Agent or in a slightly different manner barring the Dark Jedi.

 

If you are gonna make a character into a Jedi from a smuggler or an agent or an assassin, whatever. Make sure they don't fight against a bunch of(by comparison) **** opponents and have actual training before they fight.

 

Honestly? Those 7 Dark Jedi were...well crap, aside from Jerec and even then with the Valley of the Jedi backing him he was still beat by Kyle.

 

Really I could see Empire Strikes Back era Luke beating the 7, he had way more training with Yoda than Kyle did with those spirits.

 

I don't hate that Kyle is a Jedi....it's just....I personally think he was much better off as a Rebel Agent, we need more of them around anyway.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[karadron]

But anymore information/feats in Corran Horn would be most appreciated. I'm finding it quite difficult to place him.

 

Yeah. I'm finding a lack of info on him too, that's why I didn't put his name down in my first post.

[tunewalker]

Well I'm no expert on NJO, but from what I've been told Saba and Kyle and surpassed by Corran Horn. Horn bested Saba in a lightsaber duel (correct?) and Kyle Katarn just hasn't proven himself to be as impressive.

 

But anymore information/feats in Corran Horn would be most appreciated. I'm finding it quite difficult to place him.

 

Corran dueled Saba evenly in a pure lightsaber duel where Saba was given a handicap. Saba being able to duel him at all was something that was noted as high regards to her skill. They never dueled with out her being given the handicap I believe this was because they both knew that she wasn't quite ready to face him with out that second saber to defend against his wildly unpredictable strikes. I believe he (along with Luke) took on several Jensaari earlier in his career. I think Luke killed 5 and he was able to kill 3 so that's not bad. Also we can kind of look at how many opponents Saba was able to beat with just a pure saber and know that Corran could have done the same or likely could have done better had he been there but unfortunately we don't see them have many opponents to go against and we really only have Luke marking them as Master Swordsmen and the fact we know the only ones above him were Luke, Jacen and Jaina.

[Beniboybling]

OK I'm like to move this along a bit so I'm going to propose that we move Vodo Siosk-Baas to #8 followed by Corran Horn. With Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti (and possibly Jinn) being contenders for #10.

 

I think I'd place Fisto before Ti though, simply because he fared far far better against Grievous.

[karadron]

I think I'd place Fisto before Ti though, simply because he fared far far better against Grievous.

 

/signed

[tunewalker]

Agreed to everything you just said beni

[Aurbere]

No offense Aurbere but these short remarks aren't helping anyone. They are just frustrating and purposeless, if you have a point to make, then make it. Don't just sit on it and expect us to guess. Jeez.

 

Its just unfair on other people if you choose to disregard their argument, but offer no reason why.

 

You want a reason? You failed to include examples of their skill, only listing their reputation.

 

Not the best method of comparison.

[fellblade]

OK I'm like to move this along a bit so I'm going to propose that we move Vodo Siosk-Baas to #8 followed by Corran Horn. With Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti (and possibly Jinn) being contenders for #10.

 

I think I'd place Fisto before Ti though, simply because he fared far far better against Grievous.

 

Lol - why not - Plo Koon?

If not Plo Koon - then out of those definitely Qui Gon for #10 in my opinion

 

With Fisto against Grievous it was pretty much down to a stylistic advantage (a bad interpretation of the data by the writers in my opinion) - yet when push came to shove they sent Obi Wan after Grievous not Fisto even though Obi's style does not have a specific advantage against Grievous (it just helps him last longer - but that can be said with Obi Wan vs virtually anybody).

[karadron]

Yeah now that I think of it I'd put Plo Koon above Fisto.

[Aurbere]

Further thinking on it, I think we can use Ventress as a comparative method for Plo Koon vs. Fisto.

 

Obviously Plo Koon wins here. Plo Koon was able to hold off and disarm Ventress while suffering from a broken arm, whereas Fisto was outright defeated by her.

 

You can blame Fisto's weaknesses, and Ventress studying him (though I don't think that matters to those who read In Service to the Republic), but that doesn't change the fact that Plo Koon was physically incapable of using Form V to its fullest.

 

There's also the (likely) fact that Savage Opress wouldn't have been able to defeat Plo Koon without 'outside help.'

 

Speaking of Savage Opress vs. Plo Koon. That duel makes me think that Plo Koon had eliminated the lack of mobility weakness of Form V.

 

Yet Fisto is still saddled with the weaknesses of Shii-Cho.

 

I'm not sure why I bother, I have rightly acknowledge Shaak Ti as superior to Plo Koon, but sometimes you just have to say the obvious.

[tunewalker]

Further thinking on it, I think we can use Ventress as a comparative method for Plo Koon vs. Fisto.

 

Obviously Plo Koon wins here. Plo Koon was able to hold off and disarm Ventress while suffering from a broken arm, whereas Fisto was outright defeated by her.

 

You can blame Fisto's weaknesses, and Ventress studying him (though I don't think that matters to those who read In Service to the Republic), but that doesn't change the fact that Plo Koon was physically incapable of using Form V to its fullest.

 

There's also the (likely) fact that Savage Opress wouldn't have been able to defeat Plo Koon without 'outside help.'

 

Speaking of Savage Opress vs. Plo Koon. That duel makes me think that Plo Koon had eliminated the lack of mobility weakness of Form V.

 

Yet Fisto is still saddled with the weaknesses of Shii-Cho.

 

I'm not sure why I bother, I have rightly acknowledge Shaak Ti as superior to Plo Koon, but sometimes you just have to say the obvious.

 

Honestly Shaak ti I don't know that she is superior and we know that Plo Koon incorporated Ataru into his Form V so he did get rid of its weaknesses.

[Selenial]

I think I'd place Fisto before Ti though, simply because he fared far far better against Grievous.

 

Please tell me he didn't just say that...

[tunewalker]

Please tell me he didn't just say that...

 

He did the original Clone wars series is still C-cannon. So her defeat at the hands of grievous (twice) is also cannon.

[Beniboybling]

OK I'm going to put Vodo Siosk Baas on the list at #8 instead of Ti. Are we all agreed on Corran Horn for #9? I think Tunewalker makes a strong argument for why he was one of the best in the NJO. And being superior in combat against Saba - who herself is a considerably powerful Force user - is very impressive.

[Beniboybling]

Lol - why not - Plo Koon?

If not Plo Koon - then out of those definitely Qui Gon for #10 in my opinion

 

With Fisto against Grievous it was pretty much down to a stylistic advantage (a bad interpretation of the data by the writers in my opinion) - yet when push came to shove they sent Obi Wan after Grievous not Fisto even though Obi's style does not have a specific advantage against Grievous (it just helps him last longer - but that can be said with Obi Wan vs virtually anybody).

Fisto just seems to have gone further with his form I feel. Plo Koon may have less weakenesses but in reality, Djem So is a pretty well rounded weak free form anyway. Koon essentially took on a far more difficult form and mastered it to arguably the same level.

 

So can we really fault Fisto for having weaknesses, and Koon not, when Fisto's form poses that much more of a challenge to the wielder? Its important that we consider their ability as a whole, not just strengths and weaknesses.

 

And yes, Fisto had a stylistic advantage, but Shaak Ti really was just outmatched by Grievous. And Kenobi had an advantage against Grievous with Soresu, not only does his perfect defense allow him to handle Grievous' bizarre onslaught but his ability to recognize and exploit weaknesses allows him to make sense of Grievous' form, and disrupt it, which he did to great effect against the General.

[Beniboybling]

Please tell me he didn't just say that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSfXU-cHxU

[MyDarkSunshine]

Slightly side-tracked thoughtline: has anyone actually come up with a reasonable explanation of Grevious' vastly different levels of competency shown throughout the Clone Wars cartoons (the original vs the new series')? The weakened performance during the movies is understandable given Windu had crushed the droids chest via the Force, but presumably the new Clone Wars series occurs before the attack on Coruscant and opening of RotS.

 

Admittedly I've watched little of the new cartoon series, but it strikes me as silly to write off Shaak Ti's otherwise impressive displays of skill based on the fact she was defeated by heightened General Grevious, who was described as a flawless tactician and was a combatant more than capable of not only taking on, but defeating multiple Jedi (including some Council members) simultaneously; especially when the comparison involves a battle against a noticeably less threatening envisioning of the character. I understand that 'canon is canon', and so the events of the original clone wars series are still factual, but by that rule Shaak Ti was also an incredibly impressive duellist capable of defeating dozens of MagnaGuard simultaneously, whereas in the movies saber duellists like Obi-Wan and Anakin (both ranked higher in these lists) were caught up quite a while with but a few.

[Beniboybling]

Slightly side-tracked thoughtline: has anyone actually come up with a reasonable explanation of Grevious' vastly different levels of competency shown throughout the Clone Wars cartoons (the original vs the new series')? The weakened performance during the movies is understandable given Windu had crushed the droids chest via the Force, but presumably the new Clone Wars series occurs before the attack on Coruscant and opening of RotS.

 

Admittedly I've watched little of the new cartoon series, but it strikes me as silly to write off Shaak Ti's otherwise impressive displays of skill based on the fact she was defeated by heightened General Grevious, who was described as a flawless tactician and was a combatant more than capable of not only taking on, but defeating multiple Jedi (including some Council members) simultaneously; especially when the comparison involves a battle against a noticeably less threatening envisioning of the character. I understand that 'canon is canon', and so the events of the original clone wars series are still factual, but by that rule Shaak Ti was also an incredibly impressive duellist capable of defeating dozens of MagnaGuard simultaneously, whereas in the movies saber duellists like Obi-Wan and Anakin (both ranked higher in these lists) were caught up quite a while with but a few.

I have, I reckon that Grievous perfoms much better against multiple opponents were he can use his unothrodox style to confuse and baffle and his arms to his greatest advantage. But one-on-one his opponent can focus and recognize his weaknesses. Its also a question of how geared your form is to combating his style.

 

But your right, there is a disparity and we have to take that into account. One way is through the following:

 

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

 

Consider the 2003 Clone Wars series an abstract window.

 

That said, I think Fisto deserves a lot of credit for not been phased by Grievous' attack. And his performance remains impressive. But an argument can be made for Shaak Ti being superior to Fisto.

[Aurbere]

Honestly Shaak ti I don't know that she is superior and we know that Plo Koon incorporated Ataru into his Form V so he did get rid of its weaknesses.

 

I'd say that they are closer than Shaak Ti and Fisto are. I have always believed that Plo Koon is a superior duelist to the majority of the Jedi Council, barring three.

 

At least until Obi-Wan and Anakin were placed on it.

[Canino]

That said, I think Fisto deserves a lot of credit for not been phased by Grievous' attack. And his performance remains impressive. But an argument can be made for Shaak Ti being superior to Fisto.

 

She is. Fisto is quite impressive, taking Form 1 and mkaing it deadly. But Ti also mastered her chosen forms to high degrees, and overcame their weaknesses.

 

Ti was capable of fighting a marathon (stole that from Jensaarai), showcasing her endurance.

also proves the point that she completely eliminated the main weakness of Ataru- fatigue. We should also take into account that Ti was in her 50's at the time of her death, yet was in her prime (IIRC). She was also at her physical peak, and had the physique of a 20-30 year old.

 

While yes, Grievous was able to defeat her, she was also capable of fighting him for a time, and was able to defeat many of his personal MagnaGuards, which is impressive in itself.

 

She also was capable of using Ataru to create kinetic energy, allowing her to stagger Starkiller with ease.

 

I think an important part is also that Ti was trained as a Consular, not a Guardian. This pretty much means that her saber skills where self taught, which is extremely impressive. Not only that, but her grace, agility, and elegance show clear mastery of her forms. She can hold her own against many swordsmen, without having a real defense, and can easily dodge any attacks they use.

[Beniboybling]

OK I think its time I did an in-depth comparison of the Prequel candidates. Based on the following format:

 

Knowledge - pertaining to one's expertise in the seven lightsaber forms i.e. mastery.

 

Understanding - pertaining to one's recognition of the strengths of weaknesses of the forms and their efforts to overcome the weaknesses and amplify the strengths. This also encompasses one's aptitude.

 

Application - pertaining to the use of one's personal form, and application of their knowledge and understanding - but inclusive only of skill. Not of physical capabilities, Force capabilities and tactical ability.

 

All three of these categories are equal to eachother.

 

Knowledge:

 

Plo Koon: was a master of Djem So, and was also trained in the use of Ataru. Given his reputation as a master swordsman we can assume that he achieved a high level of mastery over this form also.

 

Kit Fisto: was a master of Shii-Cho, of which he achieved to an extremely advanced level and pushed beyond the form's natural capacity. He was also highly skilled in the use of Jar'Kai. However he was primarily a Consular.

 

Shaak Ti: was a master of Makashi and Ataru combat which she use in tandem with each other, she was also noted to be well trained in all other forms of lightsaber combat, including Jar'Kai. It was also possible she was proficient with the saberstaff given her effective use of an electrostaff.

 

Qui-Gon Jinn: was a specialist who mastered Ataru too an extremely high degree.

 

Overall I'd give the edge to Shaak Ti, as unlike her opponents she's gone beyond her primary forms - and which she has mastered two instead of one - and achieved skill in all other forms, she has also explored Jar'Kai. Next it would be Plo Koon as he has too branched out to other forms. And in terms of the specialists I'd place Fisto above Jinn because I feel Fisto has mastered his respective form to a higher degree than Jinn, and also picked up Jar'Kai, whereas Jinn refrained from using any of the Su Ma rotations.

 

Understanding

 

Plo Koon: demonstrated a considerable understanding of the lightsaber forms by complementing his use of Djem So with Ataru, negating lack of mobility as a weakness.

 

Kit Fisto: also demonstrated impressive grasp over the lightsaber forms by making Shii-Cho viable as primary style, encouraging randomness and aggressiveness to make the style lethally effective. He also capitalised on its simplicity, turning it from a weakness to a strength, making him highly agile and attentive.

 

Shaak Ti: complemented her use of Makashi with Ataru and seemingly eliminating the weaknesses of both. She had a powerful defense and well as offense, and was able to engage in combat for a prolonged amount of time without tiring, could create high amounts of kinetic energy, deflect blaster bolts effectively and was even highly capable of taking on multiple opponents, a weakness of both of her forms.

 

Qui-Gon Jinn: was excellent at blast deflection, overcoming one of Ataru's primary weaknesses. However when faced with more than one opponent or led into a confined space he quickly faltered.

 

I think its obvious Shaak Ti again gets the edge here, her style is effectively perfect, with not a single notable weakness. She's overcome every flaw in Makashi and Ataru, and instead actually turned them into strengths - there is really no environment or circumstance that could work against her, which is very impressive. Next I would give it to Fisto, because despite failing to overcome many of the forms weaknesses, he capitalized on strengths, taking a form designed to train younglings and transforming it into a deadly style. However Koon comes in very close behind, as his style had few notable weaknesses, however Djem So is a well rounded form anyway, and Koon didn't notably capitalize or develop its strengths. And Jinn comes in last simply because he failed to overcome so many of its weaknesses, and didn't develop on many of its strengths.

 

Application:

 

Plo Koon: was highly capable in the application of his form, taking on Asajj Ventress despite having a broken arm, which would have greatly encumbered his use of a two handed, power orientated style. Noting also how exceptional a duelist Ventress is. Though Ventress was at a disadvantage against a Djem So duelist. Koon was also considered highly by Darth Maul, an exceptional duelist in his own right.

 

Kit Fisto: was highly regarded amongst the Jedi Order, and his application of Shii-Cho was stunningly effective against General Grievous, who in turn had dominated many other highly skilled Jedi - though his form did make him well geared towards this. However he was defeated by Asajj Ventress who exploited his primary weaknesses.

 

Shaak Ti: was regarded a a highly skilled and highly cunning warrior by many members of the Jedi Order. And her application of her style was elegant, graceful and highly sophisticated. She has displayed astonishing effectiveness with Su Ma rotations and every attack she performs has been noted to be extremely well placed, and has only ever been phased by superior Force ability or by being grossly outnumbered, and even then held her own.

 

Qui-Gon Jinn: was like his contenders, regarded as one of the greatest duelists of his Order. His lightsaber technique was highly refined as his offense was very powerful. Yet despite this he has frequently been brought down by the weaknesses of his form in battle, often quite quickly at that. He was also predictable.

 

Again, Shaak Ti gets the edge. Her application of her ability is simply excellent, and there is really little room to fault her track record. The next spot is highly difficult to call, and in the end I'd say its a draw between Fisto and Koon. Koon may have a better track record, holding his own against Ventress against odds.

 

But Fisto's loss was one of extreme circumstance, Makashi being rock to ShiI-Cho's scissors (And Djem So the same to Makashi), Shii-Cho not being as strong against single opponents and Ventress having the opportunity to study Fisto's form before engaging him, capitalizing on its simplicity which would otherwise have been a strength. One might even give Ventress an advantage in Force ability. Ventress also failed to defeat Fisto so quickly during their second encounter on Khorm, though the encounter was brief. And of course we have Fisto's excellent display against Grievous to consider, a duelist who phased many Jedi including Shaak Ti. And once again Jinn falls behind, as I'm starting to remember just how flawed and imperfect his style was.

 

So altogether, Shaak Ti has a strong edge against all three of her contenders, and I think we can all agree with that. And funnily enough, Koon and Fisto draw for 2nd place. However altogether I would give the edge however minor to Fisto, simply because his edge in Understanding is greater than Koon's edge in Knowledge - which in reality is gained merely by Koon picking up a second form, while Fisto retains considerably skill in Jar'Kai.

 

On this basis I feel we should give #9 to Shaak Ti, and I feel contenders for #10 are Kit Fisto and Corran Horn.

 

This video from yarealpoof is also worth a listen.

[Beniboybling]

She is. Fisto is quite impressive, taking Form 1 and mkaing it deadly. But Ti also mastered her chosen forms to high degrees, and overcame their weaknesses.

 

Ti was capable of fighting a marathon (stole that from Jensaarai), showcasing her endurance.

also proves the point that she completely eliminated the main weakness of Ataru- fatigue. We should also take into account that Ti was in her 50's at the time of her death, yet was in her prime (IIRC). She was also at her physical peak, and had the physique of a 20-30 year old.

 

While yes, Grievous was able to defeat her, she was also capable of fighting him for a time, and was able to defeat many of his personal MagnaGuards, which is impressive in itself.

 

She also was capable of using Ataru to create kinetic energy, allowing her to stagger Starkiller with ease.

 

I think an important part is also that Ti was trained as a Consular, not a Guardian. This pretty much means that her saber skills where self taught, which is extremely impressive. Not only that, but her grace, agility, and elegance show clear mastery of her forms. She can hold her own against many swordsmen, without having a real defense, and can easily dodge any attacks they use.

I here you, see my analysis. Revisiting her abilities I feel reaffirms her position.

 

Heck she might even be superior to Baas, its definitely something worth considering.

[Canino]

I read it, and I agree. I also noticed you took Baas down, before noticing your above post. I do believe that Ti is superior to Baas. I'll do some research and make a good post a bit later.

[Wolfninjajedi]

So where is it noted that Ti is a master of any lightsaber form?