Carnage vs Rage for PvP

[FuriCuri]

Hello.

This question could be already asked but I didn't find information about it relevant to past 2.0.

In recent top 3 asnwers devs said that Rage was designed to be best burst dps spec and Carnage to be "good burst, good sustained".

 

Now, though I'm quite familiar with the game and with the end game pvp, I'm still only leveling my marauder, so I don't have much experience with it, but the devs statement was a surprise for me, because "by tooltips" the best burst tree is carnage (also I like it more than rage).

 

So, I have two questions for more experienced marauders/sentinels:

 

1. What could possible make Rage best single target burst tree (as was stated by devs)? Or it was their mistake?

2. If Rage is the best single target burst spec why would anyone spec Carnage to PvP if not for not-fotm spec?

[xegallo]

rage is better but is boring

carnage is fun but is too much dependent to proc

 

a great carnage player do less dmg than a medium rage player

 

carnage if huttball else rage

[anwg]

Hello.

 

1. What could possible make Rage best single target burst tree (as was stated by devs)? Or it was their mistake?

2. If Rage is the best single target burst spec why would anyone spec Carnage to PvP if not for not-fotm spec?

 

1. If it's working as intended it just means the intention is stupid

2. you can make an argument that carnage is better against a couple of class/spec combos in the game, 1v1. But even under the best case scenario for carnage rage is still very competitive.

[FuriCuri]

rage is better but is boring

carnage is fun but is too much dependent to proc

 

a great carnage player do less dmg than a medium rage player

 

carnage if huttball else rage

 

But what exactly making rage better for single target burst compared to carnage? Because big total damage number has little to do with burst.

Edited September 4, 2013 by FuriCuri

[Helig]

rage is better but is boring

carnage is fun but is too much dependent to proc

 

a great carnage player do less dmg than a medium rage player

 

carnage if huttball else rage

Kills/KBs>damage. I usually get more as Carnage.

[FuriCuri]

Kills/KBs>damage. I usually get more as Carnage.

 

And that was my first impression too. Even simply reading the tooltips, one can see that our two heavy hitters (force scream and ravage) are buffed in that tree for better burst damage. Yes, it's more proc dependent, but I was under impression that no autocrit smash could come close to carnage-buffed force scream and ataru + berserk fastened ravage. But it's only theory because like I've said I have little experience with this class. So I could be wrong and forgot some important things, and that is why I'm asking more experienced players to share their experience. Especially I'm interested in marauders/sentinels that run ranked regularly and picked rage instead of carnage - why did you do that? Was it because of some specific skill tree and abilities synergy this skill provides or simply because you liked rage spec or get used to it more than another one? For example, most videos I saw Guardz running carnage for regs and rage for ranked. I wonder why.

Edited September 4, 2013 by FuriCuri

[Helig]

Rage is pretty good for pressuring healers. Good Rage warrior either hits both guarded target and tank, or the tank is too far away for Guard to be active (pretty narrow window - around 3 meters - to both, have guard active and not be exposed to smash. Pretty hard with all the slows, ballistics and CC flying about). The tank takes both, Smash damage and Guard damage. If there are 2 Smashers, it's significant enough to stress the healer quite a bit. 1 double smash is nothing terrible, but 2 or 3 consequent is already serious, putting significant pressure on the healer.

 

If it hits at least 2 targets, it's Smash well-spent. If it hits more, it's Smash great-spent.

 

Carnage procs are pretty reliable (for procs). I usually have either Execute, or a Slaughter proc available, to crown the short Gore=>2xMassacre=>Vicious/Scream, or Gore=>Ravage=>Vicious/Scream. It doesn't have the raw frontloaded damage of Smash, but once it warms up, it explodes single targets, if you let it.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Helig

[FuriCuri]

Well, that was I'm thinking too - in my eyes rage dps only viable for pressuring guarder couple. Why devs decided that it's best burst dps is beyond me. I don't see anything that could make one rage marauder burst one target better than carnage marauder.

 

And it's frightens me that devs designed (as they've said) rage tree to be best burst - it means that in the future they could move more burst synergy into that tree from carnage.

[Sappharan]

Rage/Focus is much more durable than Carnage/Combat via higher natural mitigation (Shii Cho form grants 3% more damage and mitigation) and a much more clement Undying Rage/GBTF penalty (Force Vigor/Health--it only consumes 25% of remaining HPs as opposed to 50% for the two other specs) and shorter cooldown (Undying/Enduring--reduces cd by 15-30 seconds and mitigation by a further 1 and 2% and another benefit...later). Further, it does more damage via critical hits because it boosts Surge via Dark/Focused Resonance. Rage/Focus also rewards the player with far easier resource management as Enduring also allows Twin Saber Throw to grant 1 and 2 Rage/Focus. Finally, it has limited armor penetration, up to 30%, with Shii Cho Mastery.

 

There really is no other choice. However, I make the choice to use Combat anyway. It is not as lustrous and it can be hamstrung rather easily by stifling the Gore/Precision Slash windows and by stunning or mezzing the ticks of Ravage/Master Strike, but it is more fun and a LOT more involved.

 

You're going to see significantly larger numbers as Rage/Focus, and individual hits will be more impressive too, but if I time it right, the planets align and the RNG gods are favoring me, I can burst about 15k or so with Precision Slash>Dispatch>Riposte>Blade Storm in 2 gcds. It is not the way to bet and it certainly does not happen often, but it is truly devastating in those moments.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Sappharan

[FuriCuri]

Rage/Focus is much more durable than Carnage/Combat via higher natural mitigation (Shii Cho form grants 3% more damage and mitigation) and a much more clement Undying Rage/GBTF penalty (Force Vigor/Health--it only consumes 25% of remaining HPs as opposed to 50% for the two other specs) and shorter cooldown (Undying/Enduring--reduces cd by 15-30 seconds and mitigation by a further 1 and 2% and another benefit...later). Further, it does more damage via critical hits because it boosts Surge via Dark/Focused Resonance. Rage/Focus also rewards the player with far easier resource management as Enduring also allows Twin Saber Throw to grant 1 and 2 Rage/Focus. Finally, it has limited armor penetration, up to 30%, with Shii Cho Mastery.

 

There really is no other choice. However, I make the choice to use Combat anyway. It is not as lustrous and it can be hamstrung rather easily by stifling the Gore/Precision Slash windows and by stunning or mezzing the ticks of Ravage/Master Strike, but it is more fun and a LOT more involved.

 

You're going to see significantly larger numbers as Rage/Focus, and individual hits will be more impressive too, but if I time it right, the planets align and the RNG gods are favoring me, I can burst about 15k or so with Precision Slash>Dispatch>Riposte>Blade Storm in 2 gcds. It is not the way to bet and it certainly does not happen often, but it is truly devastating in those moments.

 

I see. Thanks, thats the information I was asking about.

 

So lets try to compare both trees by most noticable abilities and skills.

 

Survivability

• Rage
  
  • +3% mitigation (Shii Cho form)
    
  • +2% mitigation (Undying 2/2)
    
  • +2% mitigation (Defensive Forms 2/2 in Carnage tree)
    
  • Undying Rage CD reduced 90s -> 60s (Undying 2/2)
    
  • Undying Rage HP price reduced 50% -> 25% (Force Vigor 2/2)
    
  • Cloak of Pain duration increased 6s -> 10s (Cloak of Rage 2/2)
    

  [*]Carnage

  • Proc-based but pretty reliable +6% all defenses (Frienzied Sabers 2/2)
    
  • +30% mitigation of all AoE damage (Defensive Roll 2/2)
    

 

CC and Anti-CC

• Rage
  
  • Charge and Oblitirate snare single target by 50% for 6 sec
    
  • Progressive snare from 50% to 5% moving speed within 3 sec (Force Crush 1/1)
    
  • 10m jump (Oblitirate 1/1) even when rooted (Force Jump 1/1)
    

  [*]Carnage

  • Persistent +15% movement speed (Ataru Form 1/1)
    
  • Ravage roots target (Overwhelm 2/2)
    
  • Intimidating Roar CD reduced 60s -> 45s (Brooding 2/2)
    
  • Root on Deadly Throw (Displacement 1/1)
    
  • Break root/snares on Force Camouflage usage (Unbound 2/2)
    

 

Damage

• Rage
  
  • 100% crit on Smash (Dominate 2/2)
    
  • +100% damage on Smash with 3 stacks of Shockwave (Shockwave 3/3)
    
  • +30% armor penetration on everything (Shii-Cho Mastery 2/2)
    
  • +15% critical strike damage on everything (Dark Resonance 3/3)
    

  [*]Carnage

  • Proc for additional damage on all attacks (Ataru Form 1/1)
    
  • +15% damage on proc for all attacks (Ataru Mastery 2/2)
    
  • Offhand attacks damage +36% (Dual Wield Mastery 3/3)
    
  • 100% armor penetration for 4 sec after Gore (Gore 1/1)
    
  • Force Scream and Masacre +30% crit damage (Sever 3/3)
    

Edited September 5, 2013 by FuriCuri

[AngusFTW]

Carnage has more single target burst then rage, however carnage burst is much much much more easily countered then rage and rages biggest attack is aoe. In PVP rage is kinda ridiculous but i would say that carnage isnt too bad if you play smart. Its certainly a better healer killer then rage.

[FuriCuri]

Based on comparison data I've provided I see that the the biggest survivability bonus in Rage is Undying Rage talents. Passive mitigation total is 7% which is nice if you don't have good heals, but not gonna save you from burst damage in real scenarios. The same goes to 6% defense increase on Carnage - lets not forget that successful defense is 100% mitigation, but still it's only 6% increase - nice, but not something you could rely when needed.

 

30% AoE mitigation in Carnage is noticeable talent but it could be ignored in total comparison because usually Rage spec marauders take that talent too.

 

So roughly, in terms of survivability Rage better than Carnage (because of Undying Rage).

 

In terms of CC and anti-CC I think both specs are quite competitive - they exceed in different areas but overall both effective and it's a matter of playstyle preferences - Rage has more snares and additional 10m jump while Carnage has a more hard CC (better Roar and root on Ravage and Deadly Throw) and a bit of anti-CC.

 

Now, on the damage comparison. The main heavy hitter is Smash which will autocrit if used within 20 sec after Charge or Oblitirate. A hidden flaws of this ability is that some classes has access to aoe damage reduction talents (for example, snipers has -60% aoe reduction under Entrench in MM spec) which could just take away a lot of your smash damage. But not common, but should be considered.

 

Carnage has buffed Force Scream which baseline damage is 1.5 time bigger than Smash. And due to talents it will be available a bit often than Smash in Rage spec. Carnage top ability (Massacre) applies damage immediately while Rage top ability (Force Crush) has delayed damage. Carnage two of the main hitters (Force Scream and Massacre) benefits from 100% armor penetration (from Gore) and +30% crit damage increase and 100% crit from Execute proc, while Smash benefits from +15% crit damage 100% crit and (if 3 stacks of shockwave) +100% damage.

 

So if all proceed and all stacks filled we have Smash with 100% crit change, +15% crit damage, +20% base damage and 15% armor penetration. And in Carnage we would have Force Scream with base damage 1.5 times bigger than Smash, 100% crit change, +30% crit damage, +10% base damage and 100% armor penetration. I say that alone proves something about Carnage vs Rage in terms of single target burst.

Edited September 5, 2013 by FuriCuri

[thebadnick]

Force scream has not 100% crit chance but your crit rating will incresase by 100% so if you have 30% crit rate you will go for 60%. No autocrit with Ataru IMO.

[Helig]

Force scream has not 100% crit chance but your crit rating will incresase by 100% so if you have 30% crit rate you will go for 60%. No autocrit with Ataru IMO.

Towering Rage. If it only doubled my crit, I wouldn't have 100% crit rate under Execute procs on a 0 crit rating gear layout.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Helig

[thebadnick]

Towering Rage. If it only doubled my crit, I wouldn't have 100% crit rate under Execute procs on a 0 crit rating gear layout.

 

Ok so the description in the tree is confused.

 

And why all Ataru marauders put 2/4/6% in malice in the right tree if they got a proc giving us an auto crit ?

 

To increase dmg of the Ataru proc only ?

Edited September 5, 2013 by thebadnick

[Helig]

Ok so the description in the tree is confused.

 

And why all Ataru marauders put 2/4/6% in malice in the right tree if they got a proc giving us an auto crit ?

 

To increase dmg of the Ataru proc only ?

Quite frankly, there are no better talents to pick for a PvE build. Tier2 Annihilation doesn't have anything useful, so people usually fill out tier 1 Rage, some opt to get the +7.5% crit on Vicious in tier2, wile others prefer 2/2 short fuse - which is, mathematically, a little superior over time. I don't have the patience to look for this post right now, but I believe it's stickied somewhere either on DPS, or Marauder, or Sentinel forums - detailed math/parses.

 

Malice is not entirely useless - when I have the procs I need I use Rupture. It provides a tiny boost to DPS - the DoT is considered a Force effect and benefits from Malice. The attack itself is white, so it procs Ataru, especially after a Massacre. Not a priority rotational skill, of course, but is a neat cheap filler.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Helig

[Sappharan]

Ok so the description in the tree is confused.

 

And why all Ataru marauders put 2/4/6% in malice in the right tree if they got a proc giving us an auto crit ?

 

To increase dmg of the Ataru proc only ?

 

I am not at all certain it increases the damage of the Ataru proc because I think the Ataru proc is white damage and further, Insight/Malice only increases the Force Critical chances, it does not increase the damage. There has even been debate on how and on what attacks that skill applies. Sentinels and Marauders only have Blade Storm/Force Scream, Force Sweep/Smash, Force Stasis/Force Choke and Cauterize/Rupture as force attacks. Someone has told me that Cauterize changed from elemental (internal for Marauders) damage to weapon damage as part of the Watchman/Annihilation nerf back whenever that happened. Not sure if that's true, but if true, it further reduces the reason anyone would take it. Insight is a pretty expensive skill dump for a fairly anemic return.

 

I do not take Insight/Malice because I want the two bottom skills from Watchman, Valor and Focused Slash (I cannot remember the Marauder names right now) because I believe they provide more utility for a PvP build. I only ever use Force Sweep when protecting a node or even more rarely, when I am looking for a stealther who just stealthed away.

[Aetrus]

Rage is better for PvP because it is more durable, has more on-demand burst, and more kill-pressure due to your heavy hitting ability being AoE. Smash will deal more damage than any Carnage-spec'd Force Scream, and Rage's Vicious Throw will be comparable if it crits. The increased Surge you get in the Rage tree makes that happen.

 

Another thing you might miss when theorycrafting instead of playing is resource management. Rage's resource management is non-existent. Once you get in there and start fighting, you practically can't empty your Rage bar.

 

Which kind of brings me to another point, that as far as fillers go Vicious Slash in Rage deals more damage than Massacre in Carnage.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Aetrus

[Xakthul]

I use Carnage cause I like using my Force powers at least as much as my melee attacks. I get a big decrease to all my cooldowns, get Force Charge at point blank range, and I do lots. and lots. and lots of damage. Mission accomplished for me.

[ishbindeinvater]

I use Carnage cause I like using my Force powers at least as much as my melee attacks. I get a big decrease to all my cooldowns, get Force Charge at point blank range, and I do lots. and lots. and lots of damage. Mission accomplished for me.

 

force charge point blank is in the annihilation tree

[Xakthul]

Carnage has cooldown/range passives as well.

[Caeasar]

Just throwing this out there...with all the interrupts/stuns/wtfomgsmacks in the game, it's very difficult to get a nice flow in carnage to deal the kind of damage that Rage can deal. I believe this is why the Devs claim Rage to be the best Burst DPS for Marauders.

 

That being said, it is easy to avoid a Smash as it's only 5M. Good rule of thumb is to move away from a Leap or use an interrupt/stun.

[LaviathonScurge]

I'm sure this thread is an attempt to answer a question that has pretty much been in place since launch of the game. I just returned yesterday and am going to grind my 50 marauder on to 55. The only reason that I returned to the game was for the upcoming arenas. What are you guys stacking now stat wise? When I last payed the things people were telling me to stack almost made no since to me.

[Xakthul]

I'm sure this thread is an attempt to answer a question that has pretty much been in place since launch of the game. I just returned yesterday and am going to grind my 50 marauder on to 55. The only reason that I returned to the game was for the upcoming arenas. What are you guys stacking now stat wise? When I last payed the things people were telling me to stack almost made no since to me.

 

I stack Endurance in my sabers, crit/str in my armor, and surge/power in the implants and earpiece. I usually get anywhere between 6 and 9 badges in WZs

[CellPerfect]

I'm sure this thread is an attempt to answer a question that has pretty much been in place since launch of the game. I just returned yesterday and am going to grind my 50 marauder on to 55. The only reason that I returned to the game was for the upcoming arenas. What are you guys stacking now stat wise? When I last payed the things people were telling me to stack almost made no since to me.

 

For PvP go full power surge for both specs. You almost can't go wrong with that. Some may say to put a few pieces of crit, accuracy, and / or alacrity on for carnage but I don't think it's really needed. This is what I'm currently running with. It works great and you can use it for both specs.