20 bucks for a one use dye, REALLY?

[Andryah]

Oh, and it might just garner a bit of goodwill from the fans and show that while Bioware is a business out to make money, it grasps the concept of customer appreciation.

 

I see the introduction of B/B and W/W dyes via direct sell as goodwill by the company (Many customers asked for it) Other sensible people will as well. Cheap minded people who want all content in an MMO for the price of their Subscription won't. But the irony is.. a subscriber can and will obtain these dyes without ever spending an additional dollar of real life money if they want the dyes and they value the dyes.

 

The dyes are popular for some players. They are now more readily available to those players at a reduced cost to acquire (either directly or via GTN). More dyes will be available, while not destroying the basic player economy balance around dyes in general. This is in fact a goodwill move by Bioware for the player base as a whole.. just not enough for some players.. but let's be honest.. they could send out gold bricks into everyone's mail boxes in real life.. and it would not be good enough for some players.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Reno_Tarshil]

And finally, I'd argue that asking for a large price reduction in the color dyes, while coming from a desire to save money, IS GOOD FOR THE ENTIRE PLAYER BASE. It would encourage more creative gear choices for EVERYONE. Oh, and it might just garner a bit of goodwill from the fans and show that while Bioware is a business out to make money, it grasps the concept of customer appreciation.

 

No it wouldn't, It would just be a bunch of 10 year olds dressed in black so they could be considered cool by their peers and it would be one big overrated pile of darkness.

[Andryah]

No it wouldn't, It would just be a bunch of 10 year olds dressed in black so they could be considered cool by their peers and it would be one big overrated pile of darkness.

 

Don't forget actual adults behaving like 10 year olds.

 

And.. slightly off topic.. but where is all the rage that the Black/White dye is not for direct sale? Surely this warrants a hyperbolic pile-on.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[hadoken]

No it wouldn't, It would just be a bunch of 10 year olds dressed in black so they could be considered cool by their peers and it would be one big overrated pile of darkness.

 

Honestly this is a reason I've seen devs in other games list as to why black is the most expensive/rarest color to obtain on things: because it's not creative and typically pretty ugly in comparison (also washes out art details/highlights on gear).

 

Yet that never stops people from painting everything in black like it's original and awesome.

Edited September 6, 2013 by hadoken

[Rang-o]

I didnt even see black on black dye on cartel market? Where is it anyway?

[hadoken]

I didnt even see black on black dye on cartel market? Where is it anyway?

 

Yea that is the other thing, all this ************ is over a patch note that isn't apparently live yet

[Rang-o]

That explains alot. I didnt see fleet pass legacy unlock either.

[AMulls]

Value is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Cheap has nothing to do directly with value. Cheap is largely irrelevant to value which is intrinsic to player taste/desire. This is why in the real world things sell for waaaaaayyyy more then it costs to produce/distribute/profit for the item. cough... iPhone... cough.

 

I understand what you are saying.. but it is completely non sequitur to consumer value propositions in a free market... both in the real world and in virtual gaming worlds.

 

Simple.... if these were not of value.. dye packs would never have sold in mass quantities, the dyes themselves would never sell for multi-million credits in game, and these new direct sells would not sell either. We both know they will.

 

And rarity is of secondary relevance as well. This move to direct sell means these will no longer be "scarce" and yet they will sell like gang busters.. and at lower prices.. but not at 2250 on the GTN.

 

And why were they so expensive on the market? Because Bioware artificially created a demand by limiting the availability of the dyes they knew would be most popular. Which then begs the question: are they the most popular because people like those colors, or are they the most popular because they are rare? Rarity is of direct relevance. Now the reason they will be so pricey on the GTN (even at your 80% discount) is because of how many CCs they cost in the CM, and not because they are rare or in demand. It will simply be at that price so that people can recoup their "investment" in the dyes themselves.

 

The dye packs sold in mass quantities (I notice you didn't say "are selling") because people initially were trying for those most popular colors. Once folks discovered that they were a waste of money, they stopped selling nearly as much. As evidenced by the drop in overall inventory of the dye pack colors and resultant increase in the cost of the rarest ones. For example, Black/Purple is also one of the rarest color combos (or was, anyway, before the most recent packs), and at its lowest (when the packs first came out), it was available for under 1M credits. Last I looked, it's back up over 2M, if it's for sale at all.

 

My point, again, is that dyes should not be rare, in any color; they should be readily available to be used often. The "value" that we're assigning to these specific dyes is based purely on rarity (or was). For example, the Covert armor pieces are quite low in price, because they are not rare. And those can't be purchased directly from the CM. It's just that Bioware decided to make them readily available.

 

As you yourself pointed out a few posts back, there is nothing in this game that has any value beyond entertainment value. So, why now are you saying these dyes have value because people want them?

[Andryah]

And why were they so expensive on the market? Because Bioware artificially created a demand by limiting the availability of the dyes they knew would be most popular.

 

Black dyes and White dyes (pure) are historically the rarest and top the expense charts inside MMOs.

 

This MMO is no different, nor is this the first MMO to offer them via micro-transactions.

 

Again.. if you have a problem here.. it's with players that so love black and white that they will crawl across a field of broken glass to get their little paws on it. Nobody can force a player to buy anything associated with an MMO. MMO companies are simply recognizing and taking advantage of that willingness of players to chase what they value. It's a business.. good for them. Players won't buy anything that they do not feel is of adequate value to them, regardless of price set by a business. Some will complain about price though.. until something is free... that's the nature of player feelings of entitlement.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[AMulls]

I see the introduction of B/B and W/W dyes via direct sell as goodwill by the company (Many customers asked for it) Other sensible people will as well. Cheap minded people who want all content in an MMO for the price of their Subscription won't. But the irony is.. a subscriber can and will obtain these dyes without ever spending an additional dollar of real life money if they want the dyes and they value the dyes.

 

The dyes are popular for some players. They are now more readily available to those players at a reduced cost to acquire (either directly or via GTN). More dyes will be available, while not destroying the basic player economy balance around dyes in general. This is in fact a goodwill move by Bioware for the player base as a whole.. just not enough for some players.. but let's be honest.. they could send out gold bricks into everyone's mail boxes in real life.. and it would not be good enough for some players.

 

And I'd argue that it's not goodwill, so much as taking advantage of a situation they themselves created. You keep going to the "everyone wants all content for the price of their subscription" argument. I've readily admitted, multiple times, that I like and appreciate the CM. I just have an issue with the cost of the dyes. Specifically because they are not reusable or removable. You want to make a cool new armor set that I think looks awesome? I'll shell out the money and happily do so. Because I can use that armor over and over. In most cases, I can even add it to my collection for a bit more and use it on every toon I have. That's where the VALUE comes from on those items. Their use and playability.

 

I agree that there will always be some who will complain about anything Bioware does. I am not, nor have I ever been, one of those people. As a whole, I absolutely love the game and enjoy my time in it. I've spent a ton of both real life money and in game credits to obtain items and gear I think looks cool, and will likely continue to do so. I'm just frustrated by this one particular move. And I believe I have laid out pretty good reasons as to why I am annoyed by it. As I said before, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

[Andryah]

And I'd argue that it's not goodwill, so much as taking advantage of a situation they themselves created.

 

You are fee to argue anything you like.

 

The price and difficulty to acquire these was just significantly nerfed.. for the benefit of players. That's goodwill. Why? Because they did not have to do it.. but players asked for it.. and they complied.

 

Your issue with dyes being consumable and not reusable is an entirely different topic of discussion.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[AMulls]

Black dyes and White dyes (pure) are historically the rarest and top the expense charts inside MMOs.

 

This MMO is no different, nor is this the first MMO to offer them via micro-transactions.

 

Again.. if you have a problem here.. it's with players that so love black and white that they will crawl across a field of broken glass to get their little paws on it. Nobody can force a player to buy anything associated with an MMO. MMO companies are simply recognizing and taking advantage of that willingness of players to chase what they value. It's a business.. good for them. Players won't buy anything that they do not feel is of adequate value to them, regardless of price set by a business. Some will complain about price though.. until something is free... that's the nature of player feelings of entitlement.

 

Why do they top the expense charts? Because they are rare. Why are they rare? Because the MMO companies artificially make them rare. It goes back to my earlier question. Are they popular because people really want to be in B/B or W/W or are they popular because they are rare.

 

Not to mention that my understanding is that in many of these MMOs (this is my first, so I have not firsthand information) the dyes, once used, are unlocked and/or reusable. So there is continued and ongoing value in them. That is not the case in SWTOR.

[AMulls]

You are fee to argue anything you like.

 

The price and difficulty to acquire these was just significantly nerfed.. for the benefit of players. That's goodwill. Why? Because they did not have to do it.. but players asked for it.. and they complied.

 

Your issue with dyes being consumable and not reusable is an entirely different topic of discussion.

 

Again, goodwill would have been adding them to the CM at a reasonable price for what they are. Or adding them to collections. Or making them reusable. Or adding them into the game through any of the other suggestions made in this very thread. That would be goodwill. What they did was take advantage of an opportunity, under the guise of "goodwill."

 

My issue with dyes being consumable and not reusable is at the heart of this topic of discussion, because it relates directly to the price for which they are being bought and sold.

Edited September 6, 2013 by AMulls

[Cernow]

Black dyes and White dyes (pure) are historically the rarest and top the expense charts inside MMOs.

 

This MMO is no different, nor is this the first MMO to offer them via micro-transactions.

 

Again.. if you have a problem here.. it's with players that so love black and white that they will crawl across a field of broken glass to get their little paws on it. Nobody can force a player to buy anything associated with an MMO. MMO companies are simply recognizing and taking advantage of that willingness of players to chase what they value. It's a business.. good for them. Players won't buy anything that they do not feel is of adequate value to them, regardless of price set by a business. Some will complain about price though.. until something is free... that's the nature of player feelings of entitlement.

 

Oh puh-lease. Don't play the entitlement card here. Did you really just do that? You must feel on very shaky ground to stoop to that.

 

We're talking about $20 for a single use, non-recoverable, non-collectible dye in a game. A virtual item that costs nothing to produce and only has value because the rarity of it has been artificially manipulated by the games company that wishes to sell it.

 

For the record, plenty of other MMOs offer black dye at reasonable cost, many for affordable amounts of in-game currency from vendors. Yes black tends to be the most expensive, but we're taking expensive, not extortionate, not prices that can only be considered gouging.

 

No-one is asking for black dye for free. What most people posting here want is a fair price that is considered VALUE FOR MONEY. Either the price needs to drop by a lot, or the dye needs to be made collectible. No-one cares if it is cheaper now than before this announcement, it is still hugely overpriced. How hard is that for all you apologists to understand?

[Tatile]

Black dyes and White dyes (pure) are historically the rarest and top the expense charts inside MMOs.

 

But why does that have to be a necessity of dye systems? So what if everyone and their grandmother runs around in solid black? That just makes those that use colour stand out all the more - I don't understand why making Black or White rarer or more expensive than other colours is so important.

 

Edit: And before you say I'm being obtuse or deliberately ignoring your point - the rarity of Black and White dyes is the crux of argument for most and something that I genuinely can't comprehend. It's no more significant to me than pink or red or green.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Tatile

[AMulls]

Oh puh-lease. Don't play the entitlement card here. Did you really just do that? You must feel on very shaky ground to stoop to that.

 

We're talking about $20 for a single use, non-recoverable, non-collectible dye in a game. A virtual item that costs nothing to produce and only has value because the rarity of it has been artificially manipulated by the games company that wishes to sell it.

 

For the record, plenty of other MMOs offer black dye at reasonable cost, many for affordable amounts of in-game currency from vendors. Yes black tends to be the most expensive, but we're taking expensive, not extortionate, not prices that can only be considered gouging.

 

No-one is asking for black dye for free. What most people posting here want is a fair price that is considered VALUE FOR MONEY. Either the price needs to drop by a lot, or the dye needs to be made collectible. No-one cares if it is cheaper now than before this announcement, it is still hugely overpriced. How hard is that for all you apologists to understand?

 

This. Exactly this. Well stated.

[AlienEyeTX]

But why does that have to be a necessity of dye systems? So what if everyone and their grandmother runs around in solid black? That just makes those that use colour stand out all the more - I don't understand why making Black or White rarer or more expensive than other colours is so important.

 

Edit: And before you say I'm being obtuse or deliberately ignoring your point - the rarity of Black and White dyes is the crux of argument for most and something that I genuinely can't comprehend. It's no more significant to me than pink or red or green.

 

And there you have it... no more significant to you. For others, it is very significant. It is significant because they find it aesthetically pleasing and, if you haven't noticed, character look is extremely important to a large number of gamers. It only makes sense to charge a bit more for something that many people consider to be "the best look." If that is not important to you, then none of this should even matter.

[hadoken]

But why does that have to be a necessity of dye systems? So what if everyone and their grandmother runs around in solid black? That just makes those that use colour stand out all the more - I don't understand why making Black or White rarer or more expensive than other colours is so important.

 

Edit: And before you say I'm being obtuse or deliberately ignoring your point - the rarity of Black and White dyes is the crux of argument for most and something that I genuinely can't comprehend. It's no more significant to me than pink or red or green.

 

I think that is a good point. I've heard in another game (and no I can't recall now which) the devs say they made those colors rare/hard to obtain because they felt they looked ugly on the armor and wanted to limit the amount of people running around looking like that. Now that's not to say it's what happened here, or if that was the snowball that rolled down the hill - but certainly one possibility.

 

As far as the other arguments go about black and white being of value because they're rare and not because they're popular - I disagree. There are plenty of rare dyes that sell for nothing because they're ugly. People want those colors not cause they're rare, but cause they think they'll look good in them.

[AMulls]

And there you have it... no more significant to you. For others, it is very significant. It is significant because they find it aesthetically pleasing and, if you haven't noticed, character look is extremely important to a large number of gamers. It only makes sense to charge a bit more for something that many people consider to be "the best look." If that is not important to you, then none of this should even matter.

 

A bit more for the popular colors, sure. But not $20 (or 2M credits or whatever the going rate is) more.

 

And as you just pointed out, colors and dyes are significant because player look is extremely important to many gamers. Which is why I've been saying all along that all the colors (including the most popular ones) should be much more readily available and less expensive. It helps foster individuality in the player base.

 

I (and I think most of the rest of the folks here) am not arguing for getting everything for free. I have no problems paying extra for more content. Because it's actual content. I don't even have a problem using the character appearance kiosk and paying those prices when I want to update my character's look. Because those prices are much more reasonable.

 

Unless you're telling me that it makes perfect sense to charge me 200 CC (forgive me if this number is off, but I know it's far less than 2000) to change my character's RACE, but 2000 CC to add a black dye module to one piece of gear.

Edited September 6, 2013 by AMulls

[Andryah]

No-one is asking for black dye for free. What most people posting here want is a fair price that is considered VALUE FOR MONEY. Either the price needs to drop by a lot, or the dye needs to be made collectible. No-one cares if it is cheaper now than before this announcement, it is still hugely overpriced. How hard is that for all you apologists to understand?

 

I'm not apologizing for anything. so please stop with that lame sauce. I am discussing the topic and pointing out that with this move they are way cheaper then before.. and yet not so cheap as to completely tank the dye economy in game.

 

IF, I wanted a B/B or a W/W dye..I'd buy them off the GTN for the greatly discounted prices that are incoming. Absolutely no reason to spend $20 or $10 for one. So stop pretending.

 

As for VALUE... VALUE and PRICE are separate things entirely in a free market. If VALUE does not meet your price.. don't buy. End of discussion. It's not like you cannot play or enjoy the game if you are not in B/B or W/W.

 

You want it and you want it at the price you want and you feel you deserve it to be so. That's an expression of entitlement.. so stop pretending otherwise.

[Tatile]

And there you have it... no more significant to you. For others, it is very significant. It is significant because they find it aesthetically pleasing and, if you haven't noticed, character look is extremely important to a large number of gamers. It only makes sense to charge a bit more for something that many people consider to be "the best look." If that is not important to you, then none of this should even matter.

 

I have noticed that character appearance is important to many gamers - I'm one of them. I have two bank tabs on my Agent filled with different pieces of armour - I have them arranged by outfit.

 

I still don't understand why Black Dye has to be rare.

[Andryah]

And as you just pointed out, colors and dyes are significant because player look is extremely important to many gamers. Which is why I've been saying all along that all the colors (including the most popular ones) should be much more readily available and less expensive. It helps foster individuality in the player base.

 

Character appearance is very important to me personally. And I have very much enjoyed the extra flexibility that the dye system has added to this. At the same time... I am able to achieve the looks I desire without needing to go monochromatic OR Crayola. Either extreme is absurd to me.. but I accept that other players have different tastes.

 

But the point remains.. you have many appearance choices in this game that get very close to monochromatic at a fraction of the cost represented by these two dyes that so many people obsess over. so appearance is not being denied to anyone, except for brand new players who lack in game capital to dress and color their gear.

 

It's the obsessive compulsive nature that is driving the rage here IMO. People want what they want, and they do not want to feel like they have to pay anything of any significance for it (either real money, in game credits, or time to get in game credits).

[Arkerus]

Why do they top the expense charts? Because they are rare. Why are they rare? Because the MMO companies artificially make them rare. It goes back to my earlier question. Are they popular because people really want to be in B/B or W/W or are they popular because they are rare.

 

Not to mention that my understanding is that in many of these MMOs (this is my first, so I have not firsthand information) the dyes, once used, are unlocked and/or reusable. So there is continued and ongoing value in them. That is not the case in SWTOR.

 

Every game is different and many games have one time use dyes.

 

It creates an economy and rarity, things that communities like in MMOs. If BB or WW was super common it would lose its luster. People would complain because nothing is "rare" or hard to get. Poeple complain about anything.

 

If you want a game with a free color system you are free to search elsewhere. Every game is a little different and rarity is thing (some) people crave in most MMOs.

 

Does Bioware know they can make money from rare dyes? Yep. They do. They are running a business and trying to pay developers to create a bigger and better game for you and of course meet the shareholder demands.

 

It is your choice to pay and play.

[SOULCASTER]

Now that they nixed these from the bugged-patch the other day. Have they even mentioned anywhere when this patch will even go live?

[Andryah]

I still don't understand why Black Dye has to be rare.

 

There are always rare, hard to obtain items (especially appearance items) in MMOs. Dyes are often one of these.

 

Believe it or not, even in the era of freemium and microtransactions... players want things that are rare.. because they are in fact rare. If everyone has them.. they don't value them or want them.

 

And yet.. one persons "golden rare shiny" is another persons "scab of ugly". I personally don't care for B/B or W/W, but I understand that some people do and some people also work the "rare edges" of an MMO as part of their character appearance and game play.

 

Your issue is with player psychology really. The company is simply serving the psychology. But it's way more popular to whip the company at every issue, rather then analyze what is going on in the player base as well.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah