September Question Drafts

[KeyboardNinja]

Update: Final questions have been posted.

 

The following are drafts of the questions I would like to submit to the developers. These have been developed collaboratively with Xinika (the assassin representative) with an eye toward both PvP and PvE, as well as some significant soul-searching about what sort of answers we're going to elicit from the developers and what topics are likely to produce useful dialog.

 

Did I mention these are drafts? Not final yet; don't freak out. I'd like to pare down the wording on all of them, because frankly they are all too long.

 

Notable omissions:

 

• Resilience/Shroud does not get a dedicated question.
   
  I dropped this one because we know what the developers are going to say. The question is not going to elicit a useful response. Mentioning it as part of the tank spikiness question achieves the goal of reminding the developers that this is a major problem without wasting a question on an answer that we can't use.
   
  
• Phase Walk isn't mentioned at all.
   
  Seriously, Phase Walk is a wretched ability. I can think of three boss fights where I make serious use of the teleport, and only a small handful of others where I make use of the healing buff (most of the time, bosses where the healing buff isn't really needed). With that said, we only have three questions, and we had to triage a bit.
   
  
• Balance/Madness is not framed as a "low-DPS spec."
   
  This is probably the most controversial (feel free to lay out your arguments against this decision). Here's my justification:
  Remember, RG killed Dread Guard before the first nerf (the one that lengthened the enrage by 30 seconds). There was absolutely no room in that fight for anyone to be pulling less than their weight. Anyone who pulled the fight before the nerf knows exactly what this means.
   
  People have generally responded to this evidence with one of two things: either a) wild-berry is just anomalously good, or b) the spec (balance/madness) requires extreme precision to play and doesn't achieve consistent results. Wild-berry is really good, but he has told me that he doesn't consider the spec to be particularly difficult. He has a set rotation that he follows, a rotation that the community is well-aware of. I'm 100% convinced that a good player could sit down with a balance/madness shadow in min-maxed 72 gear and pull numbers on a boss that are competitive with a sentinel.
   
  In other words, I don't think balance/madness needs a buff. What they need is something to make the spec more engaging so that people are willing to give it a try. Also, it needs some sort of controlled burst and survivability buff in PvP to avoid getting globalled during DoT application, but that's a different question.
   
  Now, Xinika made the argument to me that, because only a subset of players are achieving these results, the spec should be buffed, if only to make it more attractive. There is some merit to this argument (which is basically arguing from the statistical median). I haven't changed the question w.r.t. her thoughts on the matter, but I thought I would put it out there. I'm very, very leery of asking for a buff to balance/madness, simply because the class can clearly reach a competitive DPS ceiling even in its current (extremely dull) state.
  

 

So yeah, flame away. More constructively, please edit and post revisions. We have just shy of two weeks to refine these questions and bring them into a satisfactory place. Let's make the most of it.

 

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Change Log

 

1. Less subjective wording (per oaceen)
   
2. Mentioned the LS > SS/Maul combo issues (with link)
   
3. Slight refinement of question 1 intro wording
   
4. Removal of "globalled" phrase
   
5. Replaced PvP question with one based heavily on Xinika's authorship (special thanks to oaceen!)
   
6. Rewrote the PvE DPS question (special thanks to oaceen!)
   
7. Rewritten tank question to be more focused (special thanks to airam!)
   
8. Cut down the DPS question to focus on Infil/Decep rather than splitting attention with Balance/Madness
   
9. Refocused the PvP question on a single issue, rather than pushing multiple simultaneous problems
   

 

---

 

Question 1: Tank Spikiness

 

Shadow/Assassin tanks appear to be balanced around the following design philosophy: least healing required over time but the most healing required in short intervals. Shadows/assassins require on average 5% less external healing than vanguards/powertechs in Nightmare-level content (based on mean mitigation accounting for self-heal at an average pre-mitigation DtPS of 5200). Unfortunately, the numbers also show that the spike damage tradeoff is grossly out of proportion: shadows/assassins are between 20% and 50% more likely to die on fights than vanguards/powertechs (based on simulations, combat logs and "death risk" probabilistic modeling).

 

You have stated in the past that shadow/assassin tanks are meant to be "skill" tanks. However, the spike damage data indicates that shadow/assassin player skill gets eclipsed by RNG, making shadows/assassins rely on lucky shield and defense procs. The 5% fail chance of Resilience/Force Shroud only makes things worse, since we currently only have one guaranteed defensive CD.

 

As a result, shadow/assassin tanks are regarded as almost unhealable in 16 man content, and in disfavor among many 8 man raiding groups. The community supports your tank design principles, but opines that shadow/assassin tanks are in need of a design reevaluation based on their current performance in actual raids. We are in agreement that the short-term versus long-term healing tradeoff is valid; however, the short-term healing currently required definitively outweighs any increased efficiency. Could you elaborate on the mathematical models used to relatively balance the tanks with respect to efficiency and spike damage? Can we expect future improvements to mitigation or cooldowns that will rebalance our performance?

 

 

Question 2: PvP DPS

 

In competitive PvP, the damage from both shadow/assassin DPS trees is very easily countered. The burst from infiltration/deception, while significant, is generally confined to the opener. A team only has to play defensively for a few seconds, after which the shadow/assassin becomes a negligible threat and an easy kill. Balance/Madness lacks any burst window whatsoever, and their setup time is so long that by the time they ramp up, they're already dead.

Our fear is that neither spec is competitive in arenas. What quality-of-life improvements can we expect for shadow/assassin PvP DPS? What have your metrics shown regarding shadows/assassins of all specs in arenas on the PTS?

 

 

Question 3: Infiltration/Deception

 

Infiltration/Deception supplies neither on-demand burst nor reliable sustained damage. Outside of its 90 second cooldowns, the spec has almost no control over its burst windows. (the Low Slash -> Shadow Strike/Maul combo is far too expensive to use in rotation, even when burst is required) Moreover, due to random procs and a general dependence on critical hits, it suffers from a strong reliance on RNG rather than player skill. These factors make infiltration/deception unreliable and undesired in top-tier PvE content.

 

The community feels that infiltration/deception needs either more burst control or more reliable sustain. What sort of quality-of-life changes or rotation adjustments might we see to rectify either of these issues?

Edited September 13, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[thejollygreenone]

The following are drafts of the questions I would like to submit to the developers. These have been developed collaboratively with Xinika (the assassin representative) with an eye toward both PvP and PvE, as well as some significant soul-searching about what sort of answers we're going to elicit from the developers and what topics are likely to produce useful dialog.

 

Did I mention these are drafts? Not final yet; don't freak out. I'd like to pare down the wording on all of them, because frankly they are all too long.

[...]

.

 

great work KBN. this seems to touch on all of our most important issues, and does so in a productive manner.

 

the only thing i could think of as being an issue with the ways these are set up, specifically with the pve dps question: madness/balance has a very minor problem with a very simple fix that has been suggested. on the other hand infiltration/deception is a bit harder to point out exactly what needs to be changed, and probably has a higher quantity of smaller scale issues (such as force breach bug, low slash ridiculous force cost, shadow technique being way too unreliable at 25%, etc).

 

while i understand it would be near impossible to fit these into their own question, let alone one that addresses pve dps as a whole, my concern is that i fear that these small issues wont get seen by the dev team because perhaps they will only be looking at the questions. the problem would be that they see the perceived problem of infiltration/deception, but might try to go about it in a way that is contrary to how the community wants/needs. i suppose i'm fearing another balance in 2.0 situation.

 

now there's a problem with this concern of mine, it doesn't seem possible to guarantee that the dev team will have taken into consideration all the ideas, good and bad, that the community has thought of. so while i would like enough light to be shed on the subject of infiltration, i think there would be no better way to go about it, and that the way you've put the questions is the best we're gunna get out of the situation.

 

anyway, sorry for dragging that out, it seems like a great setup of questions regardless of my personal fears ^.^

Edited September 3, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Xinika]

I've been saving this reservation for some time because I have been grinding tooth and nail in Arena actively finding out the true performance of Shadows / Assassins in Arena.

The PvP question cannot be strictly about Madness. It has to be a generalization of the class in general. That means all 3 specs. Madness is not even being used in Arena so it's (in reality) not very beneficial to center the PvP question around it. I could not make this conclusive judgment before because I was still actively busy (over 200 arena games played now) testing our class' performance overall.

 

The Problems

 

Bad Survivability.

It doesn't matter what spec you play as a Sin, you are going to get globaled sooner or later. This even ties into the 'Spike' related issues. As Deception, your only chance of saving is an unstunned Cloak, Resilience or Deflection. Problem is if you cannot get out of that stun you fall behind so dramatically you become a burden to your entire team for peels. Having a sin on your team is worse babysitting than a sorc.

 

Want to know how bad it truly is?

It's worse than Sorcs. That's right. It is. When a Sorc is stunned, his bubble is still there (active passive defense) in addition when broken it can also stun attackers - making swaps to a sorc less viable than swaps to a sin. Did I mention they can also use Barrier when stunned? What can a Sin do? Phase Walk out of LoS of his healer?

It's bad. It's very, very bad. That's the reality and it ain't no perception problem.

 

Offensive / Defensive CDs tied into one

Whilst I don't have too much of a problem skillfully choosing if I should use my offensives / defensives, the problem is that this can be so painfully taxing in the longrun that it punishes the sin severely if they cannot get a kill within mere moments of the opener. (Cloak reduces CD on recklessness but also gets you out of combat) So the choices you have to make here are far too unforgiving in comparison to other classes (IE: Mara) who can overextend with little to no worry. The issue is that we are far too twitch. One mistake, one wrong choice and the entire game is over not only for us but we also become a liability to our team.

 

Piss Poor DPS

What more do I have to say here? Assassin burst is mitigated from taunts and guard swaps and that is all the class lives for. Burst. Once that burst window is over, their sustained damage comes into factor and it is laughable. A sin doesn't do damage once Recklessness is down. They become a walking lamer with nothing to offer to the team other than the occasional whirlwind (which is a 2s cast and very vulnerable to interrupts) The damage in general is just... bad.

 

Inability to Tank

This somewhat ties into the survivability issue but here it is yet again. Sin Tanks aren't a viable option in arena. Sin Tank hybrids aren't viable. SIN TANKING IS JUST NOT VIABLE. Why? It dies faster than Deception (See: Smash) It spikes more than the other two tanks. The CC arsenal can easily be shut down (IE: Whirlwind vs Awe - one is an insta cast that afflicts MULTIPLE enemies, the other is a 2s cast time with a resource cost) The other problem is having to stand still in a PvP setting which just frankly isn't viable. (Standing to cast 3stacks of HS - TtK or Lightning) This also makes it a standing dummy - just waiting to be shot down by its attackers.

 

What more do I really need to say here? This class isn't performing as it should. It is overshadowed by other classes who can outdo it in virtually every way and with Arena here, it's been bled out dry. I hate to say it but this is the worst I have ever seen this class.

 

This is why the PvP question cannot be centralized around Madness because all our specs are performing horribly. Having a Shadow on your 4v4 team is just outright gimping your team's potential.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Xinika

[Sarenne]

Thank you so much for taking on the responsibility of class rep KBN - been playing PVE deception since launch (ya I know this is shadow forum but same difference in a broader view). Don't mind so much being on the bottom but 15-20% is excessive imo, and a bit more control would be nice.

 

My only critique would be for the tank question (no I don't tank so disregard if it's dumb) - seems to me that comparing with another class (ie vanguard/powertech) invites a lazy response from the devs - I do think you spelled it out well for this example and I do believe they are aware of it, maybe just that the class comparison detracts from a potentially useful answer.

[KeyboardNinja]

My only critique would be for the tank question (no I don't tank so disregard if it's dumb) - seems to me that comparing with another class (ie vanguard/powertech) invites a lazy response from the devs - I do think you spelled it out well for this example and I do believe they are aware of it, maybe just that the class comparison detracts from a potentially useful answer.

 

I thought about that. The issue is that tanks, unlike DPS, are balanced against a mean. Tanks and healers are cross-balanced against each other: tanks balanced to the tanking mean and then the healing mean, while healers are balanced to the healing mean and then the tanking mean. Boss damage output is then balanced against this pair. DPS live in a balance category of their own, where they are balanced primarily w.r.t. boss mechanics and hitpoints, as well as a loose sustained mean for every gear level.

 

Thus, comparing DPS classes against each other is somewhat facetious, and you really need to look at that class in isolation. Tank classes and healing classes need to be compared against other tank and healing classes in order to have a meaningful balance discussion, which is why I strongly emphasized that point.

[sainik]

Really well framed questions. I completely agree with the way the balance/madness questions have been framed (with more focus on complexity/depth and pvp utility than on dps). I also think lambaste (penultimate tier talent point in the tree) is completely useless, and would like to get their intention/design concept behind that. Also the balance tree feels totally alien to the shadow class (no buffs to signature abilities like Shadow/spinning strike, project, resilience or stealth).

 

I would have liked something on phasewalk in there, but I guess thats a tradeoff we have to make since we have only three questions.

[Sarenne]

I thought about that. The issue is that tanks, unlike DPS, are balanced against a mean. Tanks and healers are cross-balanced against each other: tanks balanced to the tanking mean and then the healing mean, while healers are balanced to the healing mean and then the tanking mean. Boss damage output is then balanced against this pair. DPS live in a balance category of their own, where they are balanced primarily w.r.t. boss mechanics and hitpoints, as well as a loose sustained mean for every gear level.

 

Thus, comparing DPS classes against each other is somewhat facetious, and you really need to look at that class in isolation. Tank classes and healing classes need to be compared against other tank and healing classes in order to have a meaningful balance discussion, which is why I strongly emphasized that point.

 

This is my first MMO, didn't know this. Thanks again KBN

[Sarenne]

... I also think lambaste (penultimate tier talent point in the tree) is completely useless, and would like to get their intention/design concept behind that....

 

ya, even talented this sucks b@lls

[ArchangelLBC]

[*] Balance/Madness is not framed as a "low-DPS spec."

 

This is probably the most controversial (feel free to lay out your arguments against this decision). Here's my justification:

Remember, RG killed Dread Guard before the first nerf (the one that lengthened the enrage by 30 seconds). There was absolutely no room in that fight for anyone to be pulling less than their weight. Anyone who pulled the fight before the nerf knows exactly what this means.

 

People have generally responded to this evidence with one of two things: either a) wild-berry is just anomalously good, or b) the spec (balance/madness) requires extreme precision to play and doesn't achieve consistent results. Wild-berry is really good, but he has told me that he doesn't consider the spec to be particularly difficult. He has a set rotation that he follows, a rotation that the community is well-aware of. I'm 100% convinced that a good player could sit down with a balance/madness shadow in min-maxed 72 gear and pull numbers on a boss that are competitive with a sentinel.

 

In other words, I don't think balance/madness needs a buff. What they need is something to make the spec more engaging so that people are willing to give it a try. Also, it needs some sort of controlled burst and survivability buff in PvP to avoid getting globalled during DoT application, but that's a different question.

 

Now, Xinika made the argument to me that, because only a subset of players are achieving these results, the spec should be buffed, if only to make it more attractive. There is some merit to this argument (which is basically arguing from the statistical median). I haven't changed the question w.r.t. her thoughts on the matter, but I thought I would put it out there. I'm very, very leery of asking for a buff to balance/madness, simply because the class can clearly reach a competitive DPS ceiling even in its current (extremely dull) state.

 

I think the thing with Balance/Madness is two fold.

 

1) Perception as a low DPS spec. This won't be fixed by Bioware simply pointing out that it's a perception problem.

 

2) Usability. This one is actually more important in my mind.

 

While Wild-Berry proves that the damage potential is there, it's a question of how easy it is to achieve that potential. The easier it is to achieve (or at least achieve a sizable and acceptable proportion of that potential), the more people who are able to see that potential, the more acceptable Shadow DPS will be to the community at large. The perception problems come when you have an absolute top tier DPS like Wild-Berry putting up competitive numbers, but then the drop off is so very noticeable and steep looking at other shadow DPS. Worse, as you said, the spec itself is mostly mindless, if requiring a high degree of precision, so it's not even particularly FUN to try and go out and meet that potential.

 

Compare that to classes like Sniper and Sentinel, where the specs are fun and can produce an acceptable percentage of their damage potential quite easily, while also rewarding those who play their class to as high a level as Wild-Berry plays his, AND are fun on top of that.

 

Combined with the PVP concerns already mentioned, what I think we really need, and should inquire about, is a damage rebalance to make damage potentials easier to meet, more fun, and with a higher bust component. This would address what I feel are the two biggest issues with balance/madness.

 

Basically what I'm saying that in addition to mentioning that Balance is "mindless", the usability factor should be mentioned. Of course Wild-Berry thinks it isn't very hard, but he also plays the class at a very high level, and I think the drop off is very much telling, and usability should definitely be mentioned. My personal feeling is that perhaps just adding some actual threatening burst, while perhaps lowering damage elsewhere for the sake of balance might make the class more usable and more fun, so it might take care of itself, but I think BW thinking in terms of usability isn't the worst thing we could encourage in them.

 

The rest here is just spittballing based on that video:

 

From the looks of it, the DPS group in that kill seemed to be two Gunnery Commandos, 1 Gunslinger who I think must have been Sharpshooter, and then Wild-Berry himself on Balance Shadow. I'm making that judgment based on class icons, and the debuffs on the boss, so correct me if I'm wrong. Now one thing about that that strikes me is that its much easier to see your DoTs fall off when you're the only one consistently throwing up DoTs. Probably the biggest complaint I see from DoT spec classes, ESPECIALLY in 16 man, is how hard it can be to keep track of your DoTs. I mean you are pretty much already forced to watch the mob debuff bar like a hawk (this is where the precision comes in) while keeping good raid awareness, but it can be very easy to lose your DoTs in a group that is just applying so MANY debuffs. I wonder if that might be partly responsible for the drop off we see.

 

That all may ultimately be neither here nor there. What is clear to me is that whatever the damage potential of the class, reaching that potential seems to be extraordinarily difficult compared to most other classes, and isn't all that fun to try and achieve either. You've addressed the mindless not fun part. Now just mention the usability part.

 

In the end the shadow class just seems to suffer in all three specs from overbalance. Kinetic is the best mean mitigation but pays too much in spikiness. Infiltration is very high burst, but pays too much in low sustained. Balance is good sustained (assuming good precision), but pays too much in low burst. Seems to me that all three downsides need to be addressed, but for the most part you seem to have addressed them all.

 

Nice work overall KBN

Edited September 3, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[IronmanSS]

Looks good KBN - thank you for taking the reigns btw.

 

All I might add is a specific mention of "Low Slash & the 2nd SS/Maul proc not being used in PvE due to force cost" in the PvE DPS question when on the subject of Infiltration/Deception issues.

 

At 2.0's launch, it looked as if the Devs did put in some work to attempt to finally give our talented ability Low Slash a use in PvE Boss encounters, by attaching a 2nd SS/Maul proc to it on a separate 9s ICD. It looked like a promising way to both increase our DPS and add some deeper gameplay by ideally managing the 2 procs along with everything else.

 

Unfortunately, because of the prohibitive the force cost of Low Slash, it is not a part of the ideal sustained rotation for Infiltration/Deception. I can't see this as anything but an oversight, because I can't see how you would put in the time and effort to design a 2nd proc of SS/Maul only to let it "wither on the vine". It would be like Combat/Carnage not using the Hand of Justice/Slaughter + Execute proc at all in PvE because it cost too much focus/rage to sustain.

 

Imagine if they simply tuned Low Slash to 25 force and appropriately lowered it's base damage to compensate (in PvE we just want the 2nd SS/Maul proc, the LS dmg and mezz are throwaways). That change would probably make including Low Slash the ideal PvE rotation worthwhile, rewarding deeper gameplay by increasing overall DPS slightly. Meanwhile, it would have next to no effect on PvP - which is likely the #1 reason the Devs hesitate to buff Infilitration/Deception.

Edited September 3, 2013 by IronmanSS

[oaceen]

i really these questions and agree with the omissions and the decision not to frame balance as 'low dps: pls fix'

 

 

first, i would suggest rewording a few things that hint upon player opinions. for example

This issue is especially pronounced in 16 man content, where shadow/assassin tanks have been utterly shunned by the raiding community.

and

In the present PvE metagame, there is no class more universally reviled than the shadow/assassin.

 

i just think utterly shunned and universally reviled can reworded so it doesn't come across as being hyperbolic (even if it very much touches upon the truth).

something like

This issue is especially pronounced in 16 man content, where the discrepancies are more noticeable, and the other tank classes are generally more favored over shadows/assassins.

or just skip over some text for something like

In the present PvE metagame, neither DPS specialization is respected as competitive with classes like gunslingers/snipers, sentinels/marauders or scoundrels/operatives.

 

 

 

specific comments for each question

 

1. i don't think it's necessary to 'get all mathy' to prove your point. i'm not just suggesting that you take it out or make any changes at all with regards to that, i'm just making a comment that i don't think you need to.

along with that point, i think the crux of your question is summed in the first sentence of the last paragraph

You have previously acknowledged that you're looking into this issue, but we haven't heard any further news on this matter.

 

so what i mean is, if you want to consolidate the question, you could probably focus entirely on the last paragraph if you wanted to, because the crux of question is asking for an update on the issue that bioware has already acknowledged.

 

i also think that

The changes to Terminate and Huge Grenade in Nightmare Mode are excellent and generally regarded as a step in the right direction, but we would rather see the class balanced for the content rather than vice versa.

can be reworded to touch upon another part of the question. rather than simply express the wish that we would like class balance, we should put them on the spot and ask if that's the direction they want to take.

 

'are you guys planning to balance the classes or just balance the mechanics? can you explain your design direction if it's the latter?'

or something to that effect.

 

 

i am very terrible at pvp on my shadow, so i don't do it and have no comments on question 2.

 

 

3. i think the point that infiltration has little lack of control over burst is valid, but maybe they will mention low slash and its intended use in that regard. so i would probably mention that as well and how/why it does not alleviate the concern. i think the back blast and precision slash comments are very good as well.

 

i worry about suggesting that balance is a 'boring' spec though, because i don't believe that is ever a consideration when determining class balance. that said, i think the fact that it is all sort of random is a good point. taking control of the force return mechanic from the player was kind of a mistake imo, and adds to a lot of the 'randomness' to how it performs.

 

i think you should also mention when talking about dummy parses and perceptions, bring up the -30% comments that the devs have brought up recently and perhaps get them to give some more accurate numbers instead of making statements that 'they have more to gain'

also mention that not a lot of players are really buying the less than 30% comments either. it can probably be rolled together with something like 'many players seem to disregard that shadows will catch up to the other classes in the last 30% of a fight. can you elaborate on exactly how much of an increase we should realistically see?'

 

also, as a general statement for question 3, there is no question. i believe you have itemized a lot of the concerns and desired changes perfectly, but there's no question at the end for them to answer aside from very specific 'can we make balance not boring and can you give infiltration a proc?'

[Berjiz]

Very good overall but I think the madness part good be buffed up a bit. There is a dps problem for madness, sure widlberry is really good and can pull great numbers. However there doesn't seem to be anyone else even close to it. And as Archangle said this points towards that there is a problem.

 

Also one thing that would make those numbers even harder to pull is to have another madness sin or sorc. It makes it much harder to track the dots and as we all know tracking the dots is vital to even get decent dps as madness. Part of the problem is that other dots specs usually have the dot as a part of the rotation pretty much. They can gain dps by tracking their dots but don't have to and is possibly to use them in the normal chain. Madness lacks this kind of chain due to the low number of abilites used and the long trash/saber strike spam. It also makes it an extremly boring spec, deception isn't viable at all in pve but atleast its fun.

 

Madness problem doesn't lite so much with the maxium dps achiveable but more with actually getting that kind of dps. This needs to be improved somehow. Most other classes can reach decent dps without playing really well while madness requires you to play really well to get even decent dps. This combined with low utilty makes so that no one wants a dps shadow/sin becuase in the general case a maurder will performe so much better.

 

Utility is one thing that is lacking in the questions. Outside of stealth res there is little that an shadow/sin dps provides to the group even if the dps was decent. Compare it to sniper or a maurder with tons of it.

[cycao]

I somewhat agree with the damage of madness/balance. It has potential to achieve great numbers in PvE and with PvP but with PvP you have healers using cleanse completely shutting down an already slow ramp up time for your rotation (I have also seen insane damage with madness but that's pushing 'tab dotting'), that paired with squishiness and overall lack of usefulness makes the class into where you would see one in a warzone and ask them if they're using the wrong charge.

[sainik]

i worry about suggesting that balance is a 'boring' spec though, because i don't believe that is ever a consideration when determining class balance.

 

That is one of the reasons they gave for changes to balance/madness in 2.0 though (in their class dev diaries). They felt that balance/madness was complex with SS/Maul proc, so they moved it out of reach. So what I am trying to say is that complexity does seem to affect their design/balance decisions (similarly they felt combat sentinels pre 2.0 were too simple, and based some decisions around that etc).

Edited September 3, 2013 by sainik

[thejollygreenone]

Looks good KBN - thank you for taking the reigns btw.

 

All I might add is a specific mention of "Low Slash & the 2nd SS/Maul proc not being used in PvE due to force cost" in the PvE DPS question when on the subject of Infiltration/Deception issues.

 

At 2.0's launch, it looked as if the Devs did put in some work to attempt to finally give our talented ability Low Slash a use in PvE Boss encounters, by attaching a 2nd SS/Maul proc to it on a separate 9s ICD. It looked like a promising way to both increase our DPS and add some deeper gameplay by ideally managing the 2 procs along with everything else.

 

Unfortunately, because of the prohibitive the force cost of Low Slash, it is not a part of the ideal sustained rotation for Infiltration/Deception. I can't see this as anything but an oversight, because I can't see how you would put in the time and effort to design a 2nd proc of SS/Maul only to let it "wither on the vine". It would be like Combat/Carnage not using the Hand of Justice/Slaughter + Execute proc at all in PvE because it cost too much focus/rage to sustain.

 

Imagine if they simply tuned Low Slash to 25 force and appropriately lowered it's base damage to compensate (in PvE we just want the 2nd SS/Maul proc, the LS dmg and mezz are throwaways). That change would probably make including Low Slash the ideal PvE rotation worthwhile, rewarding deeper gameplay by increasing overall DPS slightly. Meanwhile, it would have next to no effect on PvP - which is likely the #1 reason the Devs hesitate to buff Infilitration/Deception.

 

much agreed, only quarrel i have is 25 force may even be much. i say low slash shouldn't be similar/equal force to doing CS/VS again instead, it should be downright less. 25 might still be in the equal range, however i couldn't say without testing.

 

as to the exact amount, again, i couldn't say until i could test it or some math whiz could come up with an equation. 25 still seems a bit too high, 20 would be too similar to spinning kick/spike, 15 seems too low, but when i think about it, is there ANY implications to lowering the force cost of this besides making it too easy on force regen pve? if not, then we should discuss what the bare minimum force cost would be while still maintaining enough difficulty to maintain force.

 

however i still think that this isn't the only minor issue that needs to change for infiltration/deception. they still NEED to fix force breach to properly build stacks of breaching shadows if it happens to proc shadow technique. i've come to the the conclusion to myself that these two things are the bare minimum that needs to be changed in regards to infiltration in pve, and both issues warrant equal concern to me.

 

[...]

3. i think the point that infiltration has little lack of control over burst is valid, but maybe they will mention low slash and its intended use in that regard. so i would probably mention that as well and how/why it does not alleviate the concern. i think the back blast and precision slash comments are very good as well. [...]

 

this.

Edited September 3, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[oaceen]

That is one of the reasons they gave for changes to balance/madness in 2.0 though (in their class dev diaries). They felt that balance/madness was complex with SS/Maul proc, so they moved it out of reach.

i know the quote you're talking about, and i don't believe it's really exactly as you say. but even if i can be interpreted that way, it does not mean that the opposite is true.

 

i don't have high-level sentinel and don't really read up on things about them, so i can't really comment on the combat changes (or the devs' comments about them) though, but i can say that gunnery commandos still exist.

 

anyway though, my purpose for making that statement is how we make our expectations for their response and not expect too much from it, and perhaps put more of a focus on other things, such as the randomness and lack of player control over certain things.

Edited September 3, 2013 by oaceen

[KeyboardNinja]

All I might add is a specific mention of "Low Slash & the 2nd Maul proc not being used in PvE due to force cost" in the PvE DPS question when on the subject of Infiltration/Deception issues.

 

Let's see if I can lend a bit of math to that assertion… The following gives us the expected damage of LS + SS vs CS + SaberStrike in terms of damage-per-force. Note that we cannot compare LS + SS to CS + CS because we need to use another CS after the LS + SS combination in order to double-up our stacks for Project (assuming 22% crit chance and 72% surge):

 

LS = ((1 - 0.12) * MH + 0.132 * 2685 + 1.32 * BonusDmg) * (1 + 0.22 * 0.72) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2 - 0.09)) * 1.3

SS = ((1 + 0.58) * MH + 0.236 * 2685 + 2.37 * BonusDmg) * (1 + 0.22 * (0.72 + 0.3)) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2 - 0.09))

CS = ((1 - 0.465) * MH + 0.08 * 2685 + 0.8 * BonusDmg) * 2 * (1 + (0.22 + 0.15) * 0.72) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2 - 0.09)) * 1.06

SaberStrike = ((1 - 0.66) * MH + 0.33 * BonusDmg + ((1 - 0.33) * MH + 0.66 * BonusDmg) * 2) * (1 + 0.22 * 0.72) * 0.9 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2 - 0.09))

 

Simplified and considering force cost, we can represent the damage-per-force in the following way:

 

-1 + (0.470588 (1.1317 (354.42 + 1.32 BonusDmg + 0.88 MH) +

0.920137 (633.66 + 2.37 BonusDmg +

1.58 MH)))/(0.783484 (0.33 BonusDmg +

2 (0.66 BonusDmg + 0.67 MH) + 0.34 MH) +

2.0176 (214.8 + 0.8 BonusDmg + 0.535 MH))

 

As it turns out, this is about 40% worse in a damage-per-force ratio for all realistic values of BonusDmg and MH, which is why the LS + SS combination is so terrible.

Edited September 3, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[sainik]

anyway though, my purpose for making that statement is how we make our expectations for their response and not expect too much from it, and perhaps put more of a focus on other things, such as the randomness and lack of player control over certain things.

 

Hmm, that is true. We should focus on ( and expect responses on ) controllable force regen, controllable burst and pvp utility, that would automatically alleviate the boredom issues. I think KBN nailed these issues very well.

 

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that there was a change in skill cap (and arguably, the playstyle) of the bal/mad spec in 2.0. If balance shadows were released at launch with the same level of complexity as now (say, like gunnery commandos) I wouldn't have bothered mentioning the boredom, etc (probably wouldn't have played it). Basically the change in skill ceiling/playstyle (which is unacceptable in an mmo, imho) makes us feel like its boring now (as compared to earlier). This might be intentional/unintentional consequence of their other changes in 2.0, so I thought was worth mentioning.

[kwestone]

Great work KBN- Not that I have any faith that anything will change, and have already un-subscribed.

 

My only 2 cents is your madness point.

 

Before 2.0, I could out DPS both the Merc and the Marauder in my raid group with my assassin spec madness. Now, mind you, I am not claiming to be the best. I am not even claiming to be really good. But parsing 1500 DPS back before the great nerf of 2.0 was something I did regularly in EC HM/NIM.

 

Now, in 2.0 my best parse with complete 72 gear (no set bonus because people flat out refuse to bring me as a DPS) my absolute best parse is 2260 (If you look at the DPS leaderboard for Harbinger I am dead last for assassins).

 

So, my point is that with my skill level before I was able to post solid numbers. Same skill level now, better gear, stims, adrenals, etc. and try after try I cant top that 2260. So I would argue that Wild-Berry and one other guy that I saw are indeed exceptional players, and should NOT be compared to anyone.

 

I used to raid with Stomach who parsed 2000 pretty regularly with his powertech before 2.0 nerfed him and he switched up to Sorc (forgot his sorc name) so I am aware that there are certain players who will always be above everyone else.

 

BTW, I can parse 2400 on my marauder with 69 gear and just mashing the keyboard..... Sigh.

[KeyboardNinja]

Now, in 2.0 my best parse with complete 72 gear (no set bonus because people flat out refuse to bring me as a DPS) my absolute best parse is 2260 (If you look at the DPS leaderboard for Harbinger I am dead last for assassins).

 

Dummy parse? Or boss parse? Thrasher is really the best source of DPS comparisons, and shadows generally do fairly well on that fight. I know Bioware trots out the execute phase argument a little too often (see: vanguards), but shadows do get an enormous boost from raid buffs and an execute.

 

Taking wild-berry's parse… We have three raid factors to consider:

 

• Spinning Strike instead of Double Strike below 30%
  
• Execute talent below 30% (+15% to FiB and DoTs)
  
• Armor debuff
  

 

The execute talent is the easiest one to calculate. The talent affects 62.07% of wild-berry's damage and increases the DPS value by 15%. Thus, the talent is worth 0.15 * 0.6207 * 0.3 = 2.79%. (note: that's actually worth a bit less than the vanguard execute talent)

 

The armor debuff can be calculated similarly. 74.97% of wild-berry's damage is affected by armor. Thus, that damage is reduced by 35% on a dummy. The armor debuff would account for the following DPS increase: 0.7497 * ((1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.35) - 1) = 8.07%

 

Spinning Strike does almost exactly 90% more damage than Double Strike does. Double Strike was used 71 times in 300 seconds, which is once every 4.2 seconds. Given that Spinning Strike has a higher cost than Double Strike, we have to cheat that number up a bit below 30%. So, we'll say that Spinning Strike replaces every other Double Strike below 30%. Double Strike makes up 26.47% of wild-berry's damage. Spinning Strike increases the damage from Double Strike by 45% below 30%. Thus, the value of Spinning Strike can be calculated as 0.2647 * 0.45 * 0.3 = 3.57%

 

These buffs stack multiplicatively. Thus, we can compute the total damage buff for a balance shadow going from a dummy to a boss as the following: (1 + 0.0279) * (1 + 0.0807) * (1 + 0.0357) - 1 = 15.05% Going back to wild-berry's parse, his 2772.97 DPS is worth 3190.3 DPS on a real boss.

 

That seems pretty respectable to me.

Edited September 3, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[kwestone]

Dummy parse? Or boss parse? Thrasher is really the best source of DPS comparisons, and shadows generally do fairly well on that fight. I know Bioware trots out the execute phase argument a little too often (see: vanguards), but shadows do get an enormous boost from raid buffs and an execute.

That seems pretty respectable to me.

 

Dummy. But again, that is one fight, and one player. All you need to do is take a look at torparse top DPS on any boss fight to see that wild-berry is the exception, not the mean. Shadows and Assasins are sprinkled in the leader boards, but no where near as many are showing up when you average out all the fights.

 

Again, I am not the best player. But when I can't match DPS with my main that I have played since a couple months after launch than with any of my alts who I spend hardly any time on, then I give up. I cant pay for that product. Sorry, but this is all about $$ at this point to me. Madness is broken, force starved, and boring now. Deception is boring to me and always has been (I love the 10k crits with maul but that isnt enough IMO). Tank is broken, squishy, and looks like Master Computer in the first Tron.

 

I did manage to beat the operations chief NIM with my Jugg last week . Gratz to all the Juggs for the laughable ease of tanking. That class is a joke to tank with.

 

Anyways I wont bounce back and forth, because I have seen the math. I personally cant make it work, top out at 2260, and am tired of wasting my time beating dummies in the hope that some raid team will be retarded enough to bring a madness sin along.

[KeyboardNinja]

Dummy. But again, that is one fight, and one player. All you need to do is take a look at torparse top DPS on any boss fight to see that wild-berry is the exception, not the mean. Shadows and Assasins are sprinkled in the leader boards, but no where near as many are showing up when you average out all the fights.

 

But what would happen if players like Invinc, Red'october, Pizza'da'hut or B'oarder were playing a shadow DPS? The leaderboards are dominated by the best players. The shadow leaderboards are so empty that I'm on most of them as a tank!

 

Anyways I wont bounce back and forth, because I have seen the math. I personally cant make it work, top out at 2260, and am tired of wasting my time beating dummies in the hope that some raid team will be retarded enough to bring a madness sin along.

 

If you're parsing 2260 on a dummy, I'd take you to a raid. Not a nightmare mode, but a hard mode. My guild does take a shadow DPS into nightmare modes (and a shadow tank in both of our NiM groups), but he parses 2.6k on a dummy (thus, about 3k on a boss).

Edited September 3, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[kwestone]

But what would happen if players like Invinc, Red'october, Pizza'da'hut or B'oarder were playing a shadow DPS? The leaderboards are dominated by the best players. The shadow leaderboards are so empty that I'm on most of them as a tank!

 

 

 

If you're parsing 2260 on a dummy, I'd take you to a raid. Not a nightmare mode, but a hard mode. My guild does take a shadow DPS into nightmare modes (and a shadow tank in both of our NiM groups), but he parses 2.6k on a dummy (thus, about 3k on a boss).

 

And there it is. Why would I choose to raid HM with my main, when I can just clear NIM with an alt? I have decently geared Marauder, Jugg, Merc, and an operative. This is my point. I am good enough a player to be pushing NiM numbers, but it takes an act of god and apparently 6 fingers on each hand to be able to do it. That is wrong, and broken IMO. I do appreciate the offer KBN, and if I was on your server I would take you up on it.

[KeyboardNinja]

And there it is. Why would I choose to raid HM with my main, when I can just clear NIM with an alt? I have decently geared Marauder, Jugg, Merc, and an operative. This is my point. I am good enough a player to be pushing NiM numbers, but it takes an act of god and apparently 6 fingers on each hand to be able to do it. That is wrong, and broken IMO.

 

How geared is your assassin? Are you using Ino's/wild-berry's rotation guides?

 

I do appreciate the offer KBN, and if I was on your server I would take you up on it.

 

Server transfer? ;-)

[IronmanSS]

Let's see if I can lend a bit of math to that assertion… The following gives us the expected damage of LS + SS vs CS + SaberStrike in terms of damage-per-force. Note that we cannot compare LS + SS to CS + CS because we need to use another CS after the LS + SS combination in order to double-up our stacks for Project...

 

Well, I'm going to assume that you're aware that after placing 2 initial stacks of CS/VS, that you only really need to hit 1 CS/VS every 10 seconds to maintain the 2 stack Clairvoiance/Voltage buff portion since they don't get consumed but rather "time out" if not refreshed within 10 secs. CS/VS often gets used more often anyhow as "filler", but the minimum necessary would be every 10 secs.

 

If you were referring to building the 2x Circling Shadows/Induction Stacks necessary to use the next Project/Shock with the best efficiency, then remember that a SS/Maul itself builds a stack as in this regard serves as a replacement for CS/VS so long as you have used it within the last 10 secs as stated previously (similar to in execute phase where you replace a CS with Spinning Strike/Assassinate).

 

So both Low Slash+Shadow Strike = 1 Stack and CS+Saber Strike = 1 Stack and either way you were going to have to use 1 more CS at one point in the next 10 secs. Also, did you account for the "auto Sh.Strike buff" on the LS=SS combo?

 

If you already accounted for this in you math that's cool, it's kind of inconsequential anyhow, I only ask because the correct math should give a very similar conclusion to what Inf/Dec players have seen in parsing: it should come out saying basically the same thing but with less slant towards Not using Low Slash. The LS rotation is not flat out unusable, it's just not as efficient. In real boss parses LS rotation comes within 90%-95% of the susutained DPS output of not using it, with the caveat that it is actually "good to use" if there is a 2x damage window (Kephess, Kell Dragon), or if you know that blowing all your force is OK, because you have a "hard stop" coming soon that will replenish you anyhow (Titan rocks).

 

All and all, because LS rotation actually provides better "Burst Window" DPS, and the only thing keeping us from using it is the force drain from using it as sustained. This could be allieviated with a minor tweak to the cost, 25 force would basically make it a replacement for a "filler" CS, giving us better dmg overall, without the force drain drawback.

Edited September 3, 2013 by IronmanSS