Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[Evolixe]

Undying Rage's ONLY purpose is to make you survive. That purpose cannot be countered.

 

So your argument is void.

[DarthNethus]

Undying Rage's ONLY purpose is to make you survive. That purpose cannot be countered.

 

So your argument is void.

 

Per your earlier statements, your main "beef" was that it allowed them to continue doing damage and get healed while being unable to be damaged themselves.

So CC them and they stop doing damage... They can get healed. So can you.

My argument (if you can even call it that... More of a point than an argument, really) is most certainly not void.

 

On a personal note, I have read most of this thread and I think you need to calm down a little bit. The vehemence and blatant hatred you seem to throw at anyone who even remotely disagrees with you on here would be much better suited to the WoW forums.

 

Have a nice day.

[mfourcustom]

smash has been king since launch BUT you know how it can be fixed without a nerf?? *don't get me wrong I think it should be nerfed* BUT if the other two mara dps tress are brought up to speed than every mara might not run smash. Edited September 4, 2013 by mfourcustom

[DarthNethus]

smash has been king since launch BUT you know how it can be fixed without a nerf?? *don't get me wrong I think it should be nerfed* BUT if the other two mara dps tress are brought up to speed than ever mara might not run smash.

 

Honestly, in the light of how strong healing is in PVP currently, I think all DPS AC's (aside from smash) need some love to make at least one of their trees comparable to smash and able to do significant burst DPS.

 

TL ; DR - Every DPS AC/class should have a viable burst DPS tree/option.

Edited September 4, 2013 by DarthNethus

[Evolixe]

Per your earlier statements, your main "beef" was that it allowed them to continue doing damage and get healed while being unable to be damaged themselves.

So CC them and they stop doing damage... They can get healed. So can you.

My argument (if you can even call it that... More of a point than an argument, really) is most certainly not void.

 

On a personal note, I have read most of this thread and I think you need to calm down a little bit. The vehemence and blatant hatred you seem to throw at anyone who even remotely disagrees with you on here would be much better suited to the WoW forums.

 

Have a nice day.

 

My initial point was that marauder have stupid survivability. With 2 full resets on at or less than a minute cooldown

each. That is dumb. And by that definition UR cannot be countered.

 

Also, with keeping up the pressure/damage I don't necessarily mean at that point in time, I'm just saying they don't have to fall back. Like go back to your healer behind the LoS object and recover. They don't have to do that because they have guaranteed survival for 4 seconds twice in a row.

[mfourcustom]

Honestly, in the light of how strong healing is in PVP currently, I think all DPS AC's (aside from smash) need some love to make at least one of their trees comparable to smash and able to do significant burst DPS.

 

TL ; DR - Every DPS AC/class should have a viable burst DPS tree/option.

 

I gotta agree I fell every AC should have a tree they can turn to for good burst but try telling that to the devs.

[Enhancer]

LOL, I remember these types of posts......Ahh yes, like right before sorc's had their first round of nerfs in 1.2 as well as right before the removal of bubble stun. Folks desperately trying to defend their class, rationalizing certain abilities, and even going to the lengths to write up very detailed "How To's" essentially walking the community through how to counter their class. And in this case, OP even has two posts going on at the same time, the other pitching how smash spec is justifiable and even "needed" by posting a pic of arguably two of the best DPS sorcs doing what they do.

 

This forum activity is all too familiar historically, BUT this time, with one notable difference. And that difference being, that even with all of the posts about rage mara's insane DPS output, superior defensive CD's and even the patterned "don't nerf me bro" disguised posts to go along with, the devs have pretty much said that things (for rage mara's that is) will stay as they are going into 2.4. For now at least. So with that said, I guess I'm just not sure why the OP feels the need to come and post all of this "evidence" to build a case as to why smash spec is fine as is, or "needed."

 

No disrespect to you OP, I'm just pointing out the classic trajectory of how the nerf bat usually swings and how, in this case, it's different. That's all.

[mfourcustom]

Remember a time when more than 4 classes were viable, remember before 2.0 when the game from a pvp point of view was enjoyable

[szczypaczek]

So why on earth do u think stun counters UR? Stunned Mara is still immortal and can be healed to full, and u can do nothing about it.

[Evolixe]

So why on earth do u think stun counters UR? Stunned Mara is still immortal and can be healed to full, and u can do nothing about it.

 

It's kind of funny how people say stuns counter UR, since the ability still does everything it says it will do. And it does all people EXPECT it to do. So saying a stun counters it is just a laughable argument :/

[alexsamma]

Remember a time when more than 4 classes were viable, remember before 2.0 when the game from a pvp point of view was enjoyable

 

Ah yes, pre 2.0 when:

 

Juggs were the best mid tank

Sins ruled the off node

sorcs were required to run a hybrid cc build that made everyone hate them

Op healer was OP

and the best dps combo was two smash, two pyro... a really good sniper could take the place of one smash.

 

Now

Juggs are the best mid tank, PT is an okay fill in.

Sins rule the off node

Sorc is a poor man's op, but can work in 8v8

Op healer is OP

Sniper, smash, arsenal, and lightning are all strong dps

 

Sounds like you are looking at pre 2.0 pvp through a very distorted set of lens... then again you are a "retired FOTY assault specialist Vanguard..."

[Simmerr]

So, making smash single target, what's the point to play Rage? Marauder damage is a type of defense because you know the class has no 4sec stun right? See the trade here, see the balance? All the other classes has a 4sec stun.. Marauder need something to fill this lack of crowd control.

Making smash single target you HAVE TO give a 4sec stun for marauders, reduce Undying Rage to 1sec. This is balance, the trade between control + damage.

 

The point to play Rage is the no ramp up time on demand burst, coupled with the strongest DPS cooldowns in the game.

 

If you want a stun that is realistically only used for offensive capabilities (4sec stun wont help when getting focused) then you should be prepared to give up one of you defensive cooldowns, and turn into the glass cannon single target burst dps that you should be.

 

In reality, I'd be fine with UR having a 1 sec up time. That's the kind of survivability nerf that would put them in line with most other dps's, while giving you your 4 sec offensive stun like all the other dps's, and removing the aoe burst damage that no other dps class has.

 

Off note: Don`t you have a 6 sec aoe mez for cc? Not exactly a lack of crowd control, I would say, especially when coupled with the roots carnage has for huttball

 

Also: It's nice to see a smash marauder looking to give and take when it comes to his/her class, instead of screaming "WE'RE NOT OP" at the top of their lungs

Edited September 4, 2013 by Simmerr

[szczypaczek]

I just wait for a reply like " Mara is healed to full while immortal, kill the healer! Stun him! Try to break trough that smashing melee train to get him!"

[foxmob]

Okay, fair enough. Can you counter Force Cloak/stealth?

auto attack & kite. honestly, all you have to do is survive initial burst with ~70% health, and you just killed any lone stealth's chance of killing you before help arrives. I mostly play troopers, so I'll eat the knockdown while spamming reactive shield because the next thing they do is very predictable: re-stun (filling resolve and worth breaking) or cloak. I won't go over every scenario. my point is that with some experience, dealing with lone wolf stealthies is manageable by pretty much any class. they thrive on ignorance. I'm hesitant to say they need a buff across the board, but giving sorcs 2 breaks, 30x stealth detect to snipers and allowing PTs to attack while stunned sure didn't make the rare offensive opportunity for a lone wolf more common.

[Evolixe]

auto attack & kite. honestly, all you have to do is survive initial burst with ~70% health, and you just killed any lone stealth's chance of killing you before help arrives. I mostly play troopers, so I'll eat the knockdown while spamming reactive shield because the next thing they do is very predictable: re-stun (filling resolve and worth breaking) or cloak. I won't go over every scenario. my point is that with some experience, dealing with lone wolf stealthies is manageable by pretty much any class. they thrive on ignorance. I'm hesitant to say they need a buff across the board, but giving sorcs 2 breaks, 30x stealth detect to snipers and allowing PTs to attack while stunned sure didn't make the rare offensive opportunity for a lone wolf more common.

 

We're not talking about 1v1's specifically or nodeguarding for that reference though.

[xAZUREx]

1) OMG the AOE!!!

Dear friend, the AOE will not be an issue in Arenas unless you play against a really bad team, there really is no reason why your smash should be hitting more than one person at any given time

 

cappinng and defending you will be pretty close to each other

 

2) OMG those defensive CDs!!!

Dear friend, by definition, a Smash is a melee class, who typically receives the second most damage in the team next to the Healer, it needs these defensive CDs or it will die more often than a Sorcerer/Sage. The potential damage output of a smash is balanced by the risk that it takes by "face tanking" - tab targetting favors the target that is right in front of you, e.g., the Smash

 

i dont think so people dont go ok take out the healer and then the monkey, they'd go after the tank next

 

3) OMG but other classes are melee too!!!

Dear friend, those other classes have long-term stealth abilities, that fecking roll ability, among other awesome utility skills NONE of which the Smash has, ability to respec into a super strong heal or tank class.

 

i have no idea what you just said, i only know english though

 

4) OMG but what about your surge and power rating???

Dear friend, other classes are putting out 12k + single target hits. Smash will do this only against a PVE geared player. Other classes also have that 30% AOE mitigation ability which results in pitiful 3k smashes.

 

Ive never seen anyone slap a 12k hit attack unless its masterstrike which has a 3s duration and just walking away you avoid the last hit

Im a full conq BiS vigilance guardian and I still take these 8-9k smashes with 33% damage reduction imagine if i got hit full force

 

5) OMG but I just suck at the game and I want to be better!!!!

Dear friend, this is the crux of the "nerf x" threads. You nerf Smash, well that will put either Jugg Smash or Powertech/Vanguard hybrid the next OP class. Still, nobody will play scoundrel DPS, shadow DPS or sage DPS in Arenas.

 

both those classes arent OP the only thing OP is the super huge aoe hit that does more dmg than all instant attacks

 

6) OMG then we should nerf healing, and buff non-Smash DPS classes/builds!

Dear friend, YES! Buff those DOT builds. Buff Sage/Sorc. Also, healing needs to be looked at. Healing was and never should be intended to keep a player up indefinitely - it should just be a measure to prolong your life. Arenas should never go to the acid gas stage. The problem is, the DPS in this game is so weak that it is very hard to burn down a healer with a good tank.

 

the threads have clearly have people asking for healing to be nerfed for a long time but the smash monkey was op way before that

dps can burn a decent sorc/sage healer and mercenary/commando healer but its that OP scoundrel/operative and guess what, people have ALSO asked for that to be nerfed

[foxmob]

We're not talking about 1v1's specifically or nodeguarding for that reference though.

 

auto attack and kite is the answer every time you see cloak (unless you have low slash or some other white stun/mezz/attack). however, since they are pretty **** dealing with multiple ppl attacking them, I'm going to assume they're 1) attackng a node or 2) on a vastly superior team, and it really doesn't matter what they're doing.

[iheartnyc]

You are at the top of the melee DPS food change, have the highest and most reliable burst and about the best survivability. Yes you are a pure DPS class, but this spec dominates.

 

And I think you already saw every class would love to have a autocritting, damage increased, AOE attack on relative low CD, that can in principle be avoided but a lot of time hit to quickly to be effectively countered (you need to have targeted the smasher before he leaps basically) combined with the CDs(and it is not like Smash, is your only hard hitting attack).

 

Just have to say that since we are a pure DPS class with no other function (same with gunslinger/sniper), of course we should dominate the melee DPS and the ranged DPS slots. All other classes with DPS ability can easily respec.

 

And yes, I'm sure other classes would love to have an autocrit high damage DPS. Just the same, I would love the ability to respec to heals or have most of my attacks be ranged, or the ability to scamper roll or have permanate stealth ability.

[iheartnyc]

this is the kind of post that infuriates me. smash is an instant. if he leaps to you and you punt him, he still has time to get back and execute a fully buffed, instant smash. you cannot avoid smash when YOU are the target. stuns don't outlast the smash window anymore than a punt does. you'd have to unload all of your cds just to *maybe* prevent dmg from ONE smash. that is utterly impractical. they can sort of be kited, except they can apply crush/oblit from 10m and enrage/leap from 30m. finisher is good from 10m. kiting will mitigate dmg from any class, but it's fairly ineffective against smash (only mitigates filler), pyro (only prevents rocket punch), and to a lesser extent, deception (a couple 10m attacks, sprint & tons of cc).

 

spread out = realistic

 

kite = yeah right

 

 

Man have you not played arenas? Have you not seen how easy it is to kite around those pillars as a healer with a slowed smasher just sort of walking around after you? The only reason smashsers insist on following the healer around the pillar is at least it prevents big heals from coming out.

[iheartnyc]

What is the point you're trying to get across?

 

Because mine is that a marauder doesn't have to stop and fall back untill he's out of cooldowns. EVER.

 

I do. Even with a decent level of damage reduction abilities.. they are all counterable.

 

You can't counter Camo and you can't counter UR.

 

Because we are a pure DPS class that cannot ever node guard or respec to tank. Why do you expect the two classes to have similar utility?

 

So you would want your class to be simultaneously on par with smasher for DPS, the top node guard in the game, top tank in the game, on top of the hordes of other utility feautres you had such as being able to stealth in huttball and wait at the line for the friendly leap?

 

There's a reason why you couldn't field a ranked team without a shadow.

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc

[iheartnyc]

 

And CC is not a counter. That marauder is still not going to die. No matter if there is CC or not. That undying WILL do it's job and that Marauder WILL NOT die. Under ANY circumstance.

 

"Oh, that smasher popped his guarded. OK CC the healer and hard switch in 4 seconds."

 

A smasher that has popped his guarded is #1 burn-down target.

[iheartnyc]

Honestly, in the light of how strong healing is in PVP currently, I think all DPS AC's (aside from smash) need some love to make at least one of their trees comparable to smash and able to do significant burst DPS.

 

TL ; DR - Every DPS AC/class should have a viable burst DPS tree/option.

 

OMG this is exactly what I have been advocating!!! Glad to see someone else who thinks the same

[iheartnyc]

LOL, I remember these types of posts......Ahh yes, like right before sorc's had their first round of nerfs in 1.2 as well as right before the removal of bubble stun.

 

Yes, and remember how sorcs were nerfed to the ground and rendered absolutely worthless until bubble-stun, and then sorcs were only taken into ranked games for the bubble-stun alone?

 

Nerfing sorc to the ground was the single worst balance change the devs have made so far in this game.

[Evolixe]

"Oh, that smasher popped his guarded. OK CC the healer and hard switch in 4 seconds."

 

A smasher that has popped his guarded is #1 burn-down target.

 

Given that absolutely zero healing is recieved. Which is a very unreal situation. The healer is probebly already at full resolve because that was required to get you low in the first place. And exactly that illustrates why it is OP.

[iheartnyc]

 

In reality, I'd be fine with UR having a 1 sec up time. That's the kind of survivability nerf that would put them in line with most other dps's, while giving you your 4 sec offensive stun like all the other dps's, and removing the aoe burst damage that no other dps class has.

 

And most of other DPS can respec to heals or tank, and have all sorts of other crazy utility like being able to throw down a lot more AOE, stealth out indefinitely, scamper, pull, push...