Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[NathanielStarr]

Marauder/sent - the only class in the game that has no 4sec stun. Oh, this is why they have more defensive cooldown and dps output

"would be ridiculous if they could stun + ravage"... Oh wait whats the difference between:

assuming all hit is a crit..

stun + 9.2k maul + 8k maul

stun + 12kseries of shots + 6k followthrough

stun + 14k unload + 10k heatseeker

 

People really forget about that marauder can't 4sec stun you.

 

14k unload LOL. NEVER seen that! The 10k heatseeker is extremely rare. Both of those would have to be proc'd by tracers too. Besides if the stars did align and you got this and the marauder wasn't using a defense while you did it (the damage would be sooooooo much lower if they were) that marauder could just disappear! If you start to proc the smasher with tracers they usually hit one of their DCDs and then jump over and murder you. Or reappear and murder you. Also, remember the crit chance is small for other classes. 99% resistance of 24k is 240 damage. How much defense do I get when he retaliates? LOL

 

Also the people that think range is the counter forget that marauders have significant ranged attacks and leap. Their leap also interrupts...oh yeah they have 2 interrupts.

 

I see that if a sniper has all his DCDs and you have none you might be in trouble. But other than that I think you could manage.

Edited September 2, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[Evolixe]

This thread and it's OP is one big joke. Can't even take this seriousely.

[ronniehenlau]

Marauder/sent - the only class in the game that has no 4sec stun. Oh, this is why they have more defensive cooldown and dps output

"would be ridiculous if they could stun + ravage"... Oh wait whats the difference between:

assuming all hit is a crit..

stun + 9.2k maul + 8k maul

stun + 12kseries of shots + 6k followthrough

stun + 14k unload + 10k heatseeker

 

People really forget about that marauder can't 4sec stun you.

 

Yeah, because maul, SoS, FT, unload and heatseeker are autocrits.. Oh wait.. Marauder during a 4sec stun:

8k smash -> ravage for -at least- 3.5k+3.5k+6k = 13k + 8k = 21k damage dealth within a stun.

[szczypaczek]

yes give them 4 sec stun and take away undying rage

 

btw 14k unload with all ticks cirtin for almost 5k is rare, 10k HSM/demo round rare, pls give it autcrit mechanic

[stuffystuffs]

do you know the class? rage doesnt speed boost force camouflage, its high up in the carnage tree.

 

Force camo increases movement speed by 30% for all mara specs.

 

Annihilation has a talent high up in it's tree that boosts it further.

[NogueiraA]

See the balance here, you have no 4sec stun? undying rage + auto crit for you.

 

Give a 4sec stun to this class and I agree if you remove auto crit and nerf undying rage to 1sec duration. This is how balance works.

[NathanielStarr]

See the balance here, you have no 4sec stun? undying rage + auto crit for you.

 

Give a 4sec stun to this class and I agree if you remove auto crit and nerf undying rage to 1sec duration. This is how balance works.

 

No smasher would agree to letting go of their autocrit and reduce their undying rage for a mere 4 second stun. That whole argument was just a distraction. I would trade both of my stuns for the autocrit alone, say on heatseeker, without giving me the 99% defensive cooldown.

 

To add to that I don't think any smasher would give up just their autocrit for a 4 second stun.

Edited September 2, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[ToMyMa]

No smasher would agree to letting go of their autocrit and reduce their undying rage for a mere 4 second stun. That whole argument was just a distraction. I would trade both of my stuns for the autocrit alone, say on heatseeker, without giving me the 99% defensive cooldown.

 

To add to that I don't think any smasher would give up just their autocrit for a 4 second stun.

 

I would not give away my stun for HSM auto-crit. That would just screw mercs even more over in regards of 1v1.

[NogueiraA]

No smasher would agree to letting go of their autocrit and reduce their undying rage for a mere 4 second stun. That whole argument was just a distraction. I would trade both of my stuns for the autocrit alone, say on heatseeker, without giving me the 99% defensive cooldown.

 

To add to that I don't think any smasher would give up just their autocrit for a 4 second stun.

I agree with you about players choice.

I disagree with people who doesn't see the trade between auto crit + dcd and stun. People refuse to see the balance.

[PhatMcMuffins]

Force camo increases movement speed by 30% for all mara specs.

 

Annihilation has a talent high up in it's tree that boosts it further.

 

Boomcity. Dropped that knowledge bomb hard.

 

Tone these rage maras down. Tone down my op healer and buff my merc healer!

[AlrikFassbauer]

You do realize that warzone PvP is a team effort, not "every man for himself",

 

Never seen/witnessed an Random/PUG zergfest in the lower levels ?

 

Please, don't tell me that in war zone there are *only* team players, That's just a lie.

I've seen far more "non-team-players" there than anything else. In my experience, team players are rather a rarity there.

Edited September 2, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Taankjr]

The first should be -- because i play it.

[Shakhaar]

6) OMG then we should nerf healing, and buff non-Smash DPS classes/builds!

 

Dear friend, YES! Buff those DOT builds. Buff Sage/Sorc. Also, healing needs to be looked at. Healing was and never should be intended to keep a player up indefinitely - it should just be a measure to prolong your life. Arenas should never go to the acid gas stage. The problem is, the DPS in this game is so weak that it is very hard to burn down a healer with a good tank.

 

Just because you play a DPS doesnt mean you are entitled to defeat a healer. "OMG but dps has to win 1v1 vs healz!!!" is incorrect. Ideally, a healer of equal skill and gear vs a DPS of equal skill and gear will result in a stalemate. Which is more or less how the system seems to work as of now.

 

If guards and players peeling come into play, then the fight essentially becomes a matter of individual skill, not who is a healer. Can you separate the healer from their tank? Can you CC? Can you hardswitch to someone the healer is not focusing? etc. But that has little to do with class balance, its team coordination, which is something people seem to often not take into account despite it affecting PvP quite highly.

 

And reducing healing in Arenas would turn them into a "blow-your-CDs-burst-fest".

[Yeochins]

If anything I want it to be nerfed so the baddies who think they're good at using the class will show. If smash ever takes a nerf you'll instantly find out 80% of the Warrior population are useless - and the other 20% will really shine.

[Heal-To-Full]

Just because you play a DPS doesnt mean you are entitled to defeat a healer.

At equal skill?

Then the point of DPS becomes kinda lost.

I mean, if DPS aren't supposed to defeat a tank and aren't balanced to defeat a healer, why have DPS at all in small groups? It becomes better to go all tanks/healers - if heals are balanced to heal themselves through any damage a DPS can do, they come very close to being invincible.

 

The balance point you advocating would turn group composition on its head. It would make all-healer teams ideal at small scale, healers+tank at medium, and only for larger groups would a couple DPS become worth adding. Healer would become the default class, tanks support, DPS utility.

 

But the class system in this game isn't designed like that. The design is such that all 8 AC can be DPS, only 3 can be healers, only 3 can be tanks. And out of the 3 specs each AC has, only 1 is tank or heal spec.

 

If you put every main tree spec of every AC in one group, you'll have 18 DPS, 3 healers and 3 tanks.

A ratio of 6:1:1.

It's how the game was meant to be played, it's why operations are built around 8, 16 or 24 players - not 7, 10 or 25.

In practice, players roll a lot more healers and a little more tanks, because there's a shortage otherwise. But if everyone just picked at random, you'd have 6:1:1. The group finder calls for 2:1:1, and it's always tanks or heals that you are waiting on and they show up in DPS spec half the time.

 

So what is a healer supposed to do? Just like a tank can take aggro for the whole 8-man group, a healer is supposed to keep up the health of the whole group with DoTs or AOEs - that's why they are there! - be heal the tank a lot and the whole group a little.

Not stack heals on themselves to achieve immortality. Eating up damage is tanks' job. The way the game is now, if healers had a high-threat stance and some taunts...

 

Healing totals are about where they are meant to be. But single target heals are too powerful. Healers are a special, utility, supposed-to-be-rare class. Tanks and especially healers are supposed to be "force multipliers" - someone you add to a large team to multiply its performance, the more effective the larger your team is - not solo superheroes.

 

This is why healers get tank and DPS companions ASAP - the idea being that you'd be healing your companion while he's fighting. Doesn't quite work like that due to poor AI, but oh well.

 

 

If guards and players peeling come into play, then the fight essentially becomes a matter of individual skill, not who is a healer. Can you separate the healer from their tank?

With skilled teams, usually not. You just wait for the acid to come and your the mutual torment.

[Gren-Aluren]

The only thing that makes this spec overpowered is class/spec stacking.

[iheartnyc]

Yeah, because maul, SoS, FT, unload and heatseeker are autocrits.. Oh wait.. Marauder during a 4sec stun:

8k smash -> ravage for -at least- 3.5k+3.5k+6k = 13k + 8k = 21k damage dealth within a stun.

 

Dear friend,

 

Please don't play loose-goosie with your numbers. You forgot to factor in 30% AOE reduction. Also you need to have 3 stacks of singularity. Also, you need to find a target that is not bubbled and not kiting you. Also, you need to be able to reach a target that has slowed/rooted you while running around dancing to kumbaya, while you're healer is screaming for you to come back to peel for him.

 

Thank you.

[smellmop]

1) If the Aoe wasnt an issue then you wouldnt mind us nerfing and removing it.

 

/thread

 

I didn't have to read any further than that

 

lmao....^ winning

[iheartnyc]

If anything I want it to be nerfed so the baddies who think they're good at using the class will show. If smash ever takes a nerf you'll instantly find out 80% of the Warrior population are useless - and the other 20% will really shine.

 

Currently 80% are already worthless. So only the top 20% of the current 20%, or 4% of all current Smashers, would be viable? Excellent my friend.

[iheartnyc]

1) If the Aoe wasnt an issue then you wouldnt mind us nerfing and removing it.

 

/thread

 

I didn't have to read any further than that

 

Dear friend,

 

Please try to understand nuance and context. Whereas a fully stacked smash against your entire team can be avoided by careful kiting and positioning, one of the strengths of a smash spec is the specter of such a smash, which has a great "goat-herding" effect which is tactically important in getting healers out of positioning, etc.

[Evolixe]

Dear friend,

 

Please try to understand nuance and context. Whereas a fully stacked smash against your entire team can be avoided by careful kiting and positioning, one of the strengths of a smash spec is the specter of such a smash, which has a great "goat-herding" effect which is tactically important in getting healers out of positioning, etc.

 

But it's overpowered. So it should be nerfed.

[iheartnyc]

But it's overpowered. So it should be nerfed.

 

I would be totally fine with the smash hitting a total of 2 targets max, and the primary target for the full amount and the second for like half the amount. But then you would need corresponding balance changes throughout the game.

[JackNader]

Just because you play a DPS doesnt mean you are entitled to defeat a healer. "OMG but dps has to win 1v1 vs healz!!!" is incorrect. Ideally, a healer of equal skill and gear vs a DPS of equal skill and gear will result in a stalemate. Which is more or less how the system seems to work as of now..

 

Heh. I'd have to say the most funniest thing in this game by far is troll killing as a healer.

 

Sorcerers have access to what I call a "THE troll" spec. It is a hybrid Madness/ Corruption which is insanely tanky, good healing capacity and does pretty reasonable damage. It has one weakness.. absolutely horrendous force management. I call it the troll spec for good reason. 1v1, No DPS is going to kill you unless your utterly crap and don't have a clue what your doing. The spec can easily self heal through single target damage and do enough off damage to kill any DPS or tank in a respectable amount of time. 2v1, it gets more interesting as a significant amount of kiting is involved. Generally speaking, your going to survive until the point you run out of force. If you haven't killed them both by then, IMO they deserved the kill.

 

Mercenaries can do similar but it's much harder to play. You certainly can't troll like the sorc can. Also unlike the sorc, a solo competent DPS will be able to kill you if try to off DPS at disadvantageous times. You have to be very careful about your health pool and when you choose to damage or self heal. The beauty about the mercenary is that you can actually troll as a pure healer. Electronet is one of the best troll abilities in the game.

 

Ironically, the weakest of the"off dps" healing specs is the operative scoundrel. They don't have access to any spec that is consistently capable of troll killing anyone. Sure, you're still going to be able to kill garbage players but it takes forever and it's just not satisfying. The class just doesn't have very good off damage potential. All it can really do is heal, and heal stupidly well. I generally don't play healing operative for this reason alone. Pure healing to me is absolutely boring. There is nothing entertaining about staring at health bars all game long. The only fun I have is when some DPS comes to solo me and I ***** slap his *** into the ground.

 

Generally speaking, the balance between healers and DPS isn't acceptable to me. While a source of great amusement, I shouldn't be able to troll kill anyone as a healer. My philosophy is that healers should be able to do a really great job of keeping themselves, and ONLY themselves up. They need to do a mediocre job of keeping everyone else up. Currently, healers are basically worth 2 people. It takes far too much coordinated effort to shut them down in proportion to the effort required to heal. Throw in cross healing bonuses that all healers get and it gets absurd.

 

People need to die in PvP in order to advance objectives and they need to die at a decent pace. That's the reality of it.

Edited September 2, 2013 by JackNader

[Evolixe]

I would be totally fine with the smash hitting a total of 2 targets max, and the primary target for the full amount and the second for like half the amount. But then you would need corresponding balance changes throughout the game.

 

Such as? I don't think we would have to change anything else if we did exactly what you suggested (and that is what should happen)

[iheartnyc]

Such as? I don't think we would have to change anything else if we did exactly what you suggested (and that is what should happen)

 

Either:

 

1) Nerf scoundrel healer, making all healing overall weaker so TTK is less than it is on PTS Arenas

or

2) Don't nerf healing in general, just bring other healers in line with scoundrel either through buffs to Commando and Sage healer or nerf to scoundrel, and buff other DPS classes, e.g., DOT specs or scoundrel DPS etc., so that the balance of overall DPS to HPS is shifted further in favor of DPS.

 

This is based on my overall belief that healing in general is overpowered and a guarded healer is too hard to kill in Arenas.

 

Last thing we want to see in Arenas is Smash simply being replaced by DPS Jugg/Guardian or 3 Vanguard/PT stacked teams. If all we do is nerf Smash, this will do nothing to address the unplayability of certain other DPS classes, and will make the game even more frustrating with less pressure on healers being strong as it is.

Edited September 2, 2013 by iheartnyc