Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

Secondly, the Black Sun navy's ships aren't even outclassed. The Interceptor-class frigate of the DS has 6 turbolasers. The Interdictor-class cruiser of the UB has five. And before someone calls "universal tech rule" or whatever, these two capital ships were the most commonly used by their respective navies, meaning that they should be evaluated as is. Neither are advanced for their time.

.

 

Lolwut?

I'm pretty sure ships that are Advanced enough to compete with Ships produced 4,000 years later would be considered "advanced" for their time.... Rakatan technology, like a baus.

 

Edit: Damnit why didn't I remember these ships were produced by Sienar >.>

Edited August 31, 2013 by Selenial

[Warren-Stride]

And in all honesty, with a numbers disadvantage and against lightsaber wielding opponents there is really no chance of the Trade Federation Army succeeding.

 

Are we just ignoring Droidekas completely? You know, the ones that Qui-gon Jinn was no match for?

 

The droids are certainly much more of a match, but even then I'd say half a dozen Sith Warriors or so would be enough to take one down with no casualties.

 

That is a gross exaggeration. Number seven of the most powerful force users ever couldn't destroy it by conventional means.

[Beniboybling]

Secondly, the Black Sun navy's ships aren't even outclassed. The Interceptor-class frigate of the DS has 6 turbolasers. The Interdictor-class cruiser of the UB has five. And before someone calls "universal tech rule" or whatever, these two capital ships were the most commonly used by their respective navies, meaning that they should be evaluated as is. Neither are advanced for their time.

I'm pulling the universal tech rule.

 

Ships should be evaluated by class, not firepower. Like it or not but you can't deny that over several millenia tech would have improved. Saying that the both the Black Sun and the Sith Empire used them as their bread and butter is a moot point. We are talking a criminal organisation and a militarized, authoritarian theocracy here. The latter has heavy emphasis on military, the former does not. Anyway, I digress.

 

The Interceptor class frigate is a light capital ship, used by pirates. Its a frigate. They are very basic and not designed to be used in established militaries, and if Empire at War is any indication, are fairly weak.

 

The Interdictor is effectively a Star Destroyer and therefore when evaluating its firepower next to ships of the Galactic Empire era, should be treated as such. They were one of the most advanced ships of their time are despite the time span, were compared with Victory-II class Star Destroyers.

 

Essentially, as per the tech rule - which encourages that ships are evaluated by class if there is a time difference - I would treat the Interdictor as a Victory and the Centurion as an Imperial-II class Star Destroyer, but a little better.

 

EDIT: Concerning numbers, in Empire at War Black Sun owned worlds tend to have no more than 5 capital ships at a time. So a more realistic number is 1,500+. Add that to Xizor's Personal Fleet, other personal fleets and as you say ships on smuggling runs etc. And I'd say roughly 2,000 vessels.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Warren-Stride]

Essentially, as per the tech rule - which encourages that ships are evaluated by class if there is a time difference - I would treat the Interdictor as a Victory and the Centurion as an Imperial-II class Star Destroyer, but a little better.

 

So what, the ships magically gain more turbolasers? What I'm saying is that, no matter what its quality, the quantity of turbolasers favors the DS, even if the ships that have them are only frigates.

[Beniboybling]

Are we just ignoring Droidekas completely? You know, the ones that Qui-gon Jinn was no match for?

A dozen or so droidekas are unlikely to turn the tide of a battle. Especially given the fact that they were rarely deployed in open battles. In greater numbers this may prove a different story. Though a Force push, crush or lightning attack would likely prove effective.

That is a gross exaggeration. Number seven of the most powerful force users ever couldn't destroy it by conventional means.

In the trailers he makes short work of them, and the game is determined by difficulty levels. Though I would admit they are certainly deadly.

[Beniboybling]

So what, the ships magically gain more turbolasers? What I'm saying is that, no matter what its quality, the quantity of turbolasers favors the DS, even if the ships that have them are only frigates.

Basically. Its seems silly that a non-military frigate would outgun a Sith Destroyer.

 

The gross timespan is the only difference.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Warren-Stride]

In the trailers he makes short work of them, and the game is determined by difficulty levels. Though I would admit they are certainly deadly.

 

I was referring to the Terror Walkers, seen in this clip at 1:00. Sorry, I think I misunderstood. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEuIPHnQOGQ

Edited August 31, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

I was referring to the Terror Walkers, seen in this clip at 1:00. Sorry, I think I misunderstood. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEuIPHnQOGQ

And

is what happens when it isn't shielded.

 

What I'm saying her is that in-game events are far from reliable, and events are portrayed in different ways. However what can be said is that Terror Walkers are far from impervious to lightsaber strikes, are fairly slow and weak against lightning strikes. They certainly have a powerful laser but I would expect when being attacked from all angles it will be taken down. Six sith warriors could do this. Malgus could likely do this by himself.

[Selenial]

I was hoping you would say that.

 

HK-01 will ensure that the UB using droids is a -horrible- idea. HK-01 doesn't need to even be near droids to make them rebel. He can transmit his programming to them, even if they're in other systems. Using spider droids or droids of any kind will only put traitors right among the UB ranks.

 

I'm pretty sure He can't do It alone... I thought he always needed proper Communication stations that had access to the Correct machinery and Frequencies?

[Aurbere]

Which is why I said what I said lol

 

The Mandalorian Navy was roughly 900 ships strong, as was the Republic Navy in its prime. And in KOTOR on numerous occasions the vast size of the Sith Navy is noted upon, up until its revealed that the true source behind their colossal numbers is the Star Forge. I'd say 900 - 1000 is reasonable.

 

Also remembering that they had 2+ years to build. And captured a considerable number of vessels from the Republic.

 

Alright, after reassessing the numbers, 1,000 doesn't seem like a stretch, considering that the Sith Empire stole the majority of the Republic's Navy. It still baffles me that Revan didn't just roll over the Republic with such an advantage, but whatever. Not the time, I suppose.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, after reassessing the numbers, 1,000 doesn't seem like a stretch, considering that the Sith Empire stole the majority of the Republic's Navy. It still baffles me that Revan didn't just roll over the Republic with such an advantage, but whatever. Not the time, I suppose.

Well we have to take into account Revan's methods, he tried to assimilate the Republic rather than destroy it, which would have taken considerably more time. Also taking into account that the Republic must have had at least 300 ships if not more to oppose them, as well as the remainder of the Jedi Order.

 

That said, Revan kinda did roll over the Republic. Within two years he had conquered a third of the galaxy and all the major shipyards. If Revan hadn't been betrayed I expect he would have taken Coruscant within the year and within three years the entire galaxy. In half a decade Revan could have established a powerful and galactic Sith Empire.

 

But I digress.

[Aurbere]

Well we have to take into account Revan's methods, he tried to assimilate the Republic rather than destroy it, which would have taken considerably more time. Also taking into account that the Republic must have had at least 300 ships if not more to oppose them, as well as the remainder of the Jedi Order.

 

That said, Revan kinda did roll over the Republic. Within two years he had conquered a third of the galaxy and all the major shipyards. If Revan hadn't been betrayed I expect he would have taken Coruscant within the year and within three years the entire galaxy. In half a decade Revan could have established a powerful and galactic Sith Empire.

 

But I digress.

 

Strategy or not, it still bugged me. He had unlimited resources, a huge numbers advantage, and a huge tech advantage. Not to mention having more Force users. And I wouldn't say he rolled over the Republic. I've seen better.

 

But, yeah, we are off-topic.

 

On topic, I'm thinking that General Grievous will identify Geonosis as a major and vital target. What happens if the Brotherhood strikes there first, and actually takes it?

Edited August 31, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Strategy or not, it still bugged me. He had unlimited resources, a huge numbers advantage, and a huge tech advantage. Not to mention having more Force users.

 

But, yeah, we are off-topic.

 

On topic, I'm thinking that General Grievous will identify Geonosis as a major and vital target. What happens if the Brotherhood strikes there first, and actually takes it?

I think what he managed to accomplish in two years (possibly less) is fairly impressive. Given the fact that wars such as the Mandalorian Wars and Great Galactic War lasted for decades.

 

And yes, Grievous will realise the importance of both Kamino and Geonosis, having first hand knowledge of the facilities on both. The Supremacy can't really afford to lose these planets else its game over for them. That said G0-T0 will likely have a contingency plan up his sleeve. He doesn't necessarily need an army to win.

[Selenial]

Strategy or not, it still bugged me. He had unlimited resources, a huge numbers advantage, and a huge tech advantage. Not to mention having more Force users. And I wouldn't say he rolled over the Republic. I've seen better.

 

But, yeah, we are off-topic.

 

On topic, I'm thinking that General Grievous will identify Geonosis as a major and vital target. What happens if the Brotherhood strikes there first, and actually takes it?

 

Off topic: But that was Revans way. He didn't mindlessly conquer, he strategically took out worlds and fought a war of Terror, he wanted to take the republic over and strengthen it, not destroy it.

 

The only time I ever saw Revan flat out annihilate worlds was Telos, which he only destroyed as a message to the Jedi, that there was no Turning back.

 

 

On topic: See, this is what I said. Ventress knows the Kaminoan facilities off by Heart, and Grevious knows the Droid Foundries like the back of his hand. They'd easily destroy them, use their prime weaknesses and quite easily take them down with a Strike team. Or grevious could Instruct Malgus exactly where to go, Malgus takes Geonosis whilst Grevious occupies them in space, as a distraction.

[Aurbere]

I think what he managed to accomplish in two years (possibly less) is fairly impressive. Given the fact that wars such as the Mandalorian Wars and Great Galactic War lasted for decades.

 

And yes, Grievous will realise the importance of both Kamino and Geonosis, having first hand knowledge of the facilities on both. The Supremacy can't really afford to lose these planets else its game over for them. That said G0-T0 will likely have a contingency plan up his sleeve. He doesn't necessarily need an army to win.

 

We both know that the whole Revan thing will quickly take over the thread if we continue, so in the interest of saving millions of lives, I shall ignore that.

 

But you are right about G0-T0. But now the question is, how does he go about killing Malgus?

[Warren-Stride]

On topic, I'm thinking that General Grievous will identify Geonosis as a major and vital target. What happens if the Brotherhood strikes there first, and actually takes it?

 

Geonosis (and Kamino) are very far away, along the outer rim, from the UB territories. Striking there will give the DS a lot of time to prepare. The UB also won't be able to surprise any of the DS's worlds, due to intel.

[Aurbere]

Off topic: But that was Revans way. He didn't mindlessly conquer, he strategically took out worlds and fought a war of Terror, he wanted to take the republic over and strengthen it, not destroy it.

 

The only time I ever saw Revan flat out annihilate worlds was Telos, which he only destroyed as a message to the Jedi, that there was no Turning back.

 

Seems my point is lost on practically everyone. Unsurprisingly.

[Selenial]

Seems my point is lost on practically everyone. Unsurprisingly.

 

 

I'll end with this post, 'cause we don't want it taking over the thread, but I know what you mean.

 

I guess he was more interested in slowly corrupting the Jedi and the Republic than taking them by brute force and destroying them. It was Trayas way, and she was his Master first and last, she probably showed him It was more satisfying.

 

To defeat an enemy without striking a blow, and all that.

[Beniboybling]

But you are right about G0-T0. But now the question is, how does he go about killing Malgus?

I'd advise a review of Xizor vs Malgus for an answer on that. Can't quite remember what death scenarios were presented, but I remember poison gas and gloating holograms.

 

Oh and "To contend with Xizor, is to lose."

 

Good times, good times.

[Beniboybling]

I'll end with this post, 'cause we don't want it taking over the thread, but I know what you mean.

 

I guess he was more interested in slowly corrupting the Jedi and the Republic than taking them by brute force and destroying them. It was Trayas way, and she was his Master first and last, she probably showed him It was more satisfying.

 

To defeat an enemy without striking a blow, and all that.

I'm just saying, conquering a third of the galaxy in two years, Revan style, is pretty damn impressive.

[Warren-Stride]

But you are right about G0-T0. But now the question is, how does he go about killing Malgus?

 

Kriffing Malgus. If it would have been any of the squishy leaders this would have been so easy.

 

So we're saying that Malgus is on the front lines? Rather than sitting on a throne somewhere?

 

If so, it seems pretty straight forward. Just concentrate all fire on Malgus. Bomb him, swarm him, stun him. There are so many things that could happen on the battlefield to kill Malgus. In the meantime, G0-T0 is nowhere near harm's way.

[StarSquirrel]

Just to get a handle on this debate I expect the Brotherhood will attempt a possible two-pronged attack on Geonosis and Kamino ASAP - to which G0-T0 will have to construct some kind of defense.

 

I'd also point out that both Kamino and Geonosis are shielded.

 

No, I doubt it

 

First off, consider distance. Seriously it would take weeks for them to arrive at Kamino and Geonosis and they'd have to wait even longer to coordinate. Also, HK-01's reprogrammed utility droids, the Bothan Spy Network, and the resources on Nar Shadda are going to give G0-T0 all knowledge and time in the galaxy to set up a trap that annihilates them. Also, Grievous and Malgus are smart and know that they're fighting a weaker opponent with similar numbers but that it wont always be like that. They wont split their force up initially going into enemy territory because (especially Grievous) they want to make a show of force and win, not risk it on the hopes that G0-T0 doesn't know and divides his forces (rather he'd just mass up and overwhelm them one at a time).

 

Also why the hell would you try to attack an enemy planet so damn far out from your territory only to realize it has shields that you then have to take down?

 

And I saw a good point earlier about how if UB uses the Commerce Guild's droids, they've effectively screwed themselves. Like, the absence of droids in the UB was a good thing until that came up.

 

A few other things. The major point of contention here will be Mon Cal, as it is easily the closest and vital to the space campaign. With the somewhat interesting change in my perception of the makeup of both fleets, I cannot stress this enough, what happens to Mon Cal will decide it all. If the UB can destroy Mon Cal then DS can't build a fleet of more powerful vessels. UB will also get a way to build more than just their fighters. As we've seen from the previous kaggaths, the space battle is often one of the biggest deciding factors

Edited August 31, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

I'll end with this post, 'cause we don't want it taking over the thread, but I know what you mean.

 

I guess he was more interested in slowly corrupting the Jedi and the Republic than taking them by brute force and destroying them. It was Trayas way, and she was his Master first and last, she probably showed him It was more satisfying.

 

To defeat an enemy without striking a blow, and all that.

 

That much is obvious.

[Aurbere]

Kriffing Malgus. If it would have been any of the squishy leaders this would have been so easy.

 

So we're saying that Malgus is on the front lines? Rather than sitting on a throne somewhere?

 

If so, it seems pretty straight forward. Just concentrate all fire on Malgus. Bomb him, swarm him, stun him. There are so many things that could happen on the battlefield to kill Malgus. In the meantime, G0-T0 is nowhere near harm's way.

 

Malgus has been on the frontlines for a long time. I'd assume he knows how to survive.

 

But you are correct. Malgus is in constant danger, while G0-T0 is in no real danger.

[Aurbere]

I'd advise a review of Xizor vs Malgus for an answer on that. Can't quite remember what death scenarios were presented, but I remember poison gas and gloating holograms.

 

Oh and "To contend with Xizor, is to lose."

 

Good times, good times.

 

They caught him in a trap. That could work again.

 

Triple post...

Edited August 31, 2013 by Aurbere