Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[StarSquirrel]

So I assume you've abandoned the argument that together with the Trade Federation army they will massacre the Sith and Massassai forces in a style akin to the Arena Battle of Geonosis.

 

No, but with your suggested tactics by Durge (as I'm convinced he'd be the leader on the ground and also would have the more effective strategies such as dividing their forces) it might only happen to only one of the smaller forces while the others fight in different environments and situations.

 

Basically the goal of any numerically superior force is to surround and destroy... That is why I suggested that would happen and think it still will at some level. One strat among many.

Edited September 3, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

No, but with your suggested tactics by Durge (as I'm convinced he'd be the leader on the ground and also would have the more effective strategies such as dividing their forces) it might only happen to only one of the smaller forces while the others fight in different environments and situations.

 

Basically the goal of any numerically superior force is to surround and destroy... That is why I suggested that would happen and think it still will at some level. One strat among many.

I can assure you Malgus will be on the ground, Durge probably will be as well, and Vindicaa for that matter - but Malgus will lead the primary force.

 

However I think we should also consider the possibility of Malgus not considering the Droid Army as a threat, and considering whatever is being cooked up on Kamino to be of greater importance - he may also see it as a potential asset. And of course destroying those shipyards would ensure space superiority.

[Wolfninjajedi]

It was more than just Durasteel, I think.

 

Vader's armor is a conglomeration of the following...

 

- Durasteel

 

- Obsidian

 

- Plasteel

 

- Plastoid

 

- Armorweave(his cape)

 

- One of Lord Kaan's amulets(his right glove)

 

- Mandalorian Iron(his gloves)

 

- Sith Alchemy

 

In short along with his hax willpower....there is a reason why Vader is THE Juggernaut.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

In short along with his hax willpower....there is a reason why Vader is THE Juggernaut.

 

Yeah. I plan on going into that in depth for Vader's next match of The BattleZone(!).

 

[Selenial]

Yeah. I plan on going into that in depth for Vader's next match of The BattleZone(!).

 

 

Bar the Bane Rap, that was the funniest thing I've ever seen.

[Selenial]

There is not much to say, all I wanted to know is what kind of changes to expect. I still need to give it some thought.

 

Ok, the change from You know Who to the Red thingemabob is the most Important, so that's the one I'd like the most.

[Warren-Stride]

All we know is that Sith Warrior armor can withstand the full force of a blaster rifle, which is what the B1 battle droid uses.

 

I know I'm a bit late to the blaster party, but I'm not so sure abut this.

 

So we're saying that the SWs armor is made out of durasteel, right? Durasteel is used to create starship hulls. Without a shield, the starship's hull could be penetrated by blaster cannon on fighters. Similarly, if the thickness of the durasteel and the power of the blaster are both reduced, a blaster bolt could punch through durasteel armor.

 

Additionally, blaster rifles like those the B1's use need to be equipped with blaster gas. Sig (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sig) was a type of gas so powerful that it was practically outlawed by the Republic. You know who's good with buying outlawed stuff? The Exchange. Blaster gas isn't exactly uncommon either. The B1s could easily be outfitted with the most powerful blaster gas in the galaxy, which could easily punch through plastoid. Although it might not easily punch through durasteel, it will get the job done.

 

Still not convinced? There are these things called Plasma Throwers. Again, a not-so-uncommon blaster rifle that could actually be found on Nar Shaddaa during KotOR II. The Exchange undoubtedly has access to these weapons, remember that they were the most powerful arms trafficking ring in the galaxy at their time. Why are these so great? You know what's also made out of plasma? Lightsabers. And if the Hope trailer taught us anything, it's that the SWs armor sucks against lightsaber/plasma weapons. G0-T0 would undoubtedly stock up on these weapons, and potentially provide each and every battle droid with them in a timely fashion. Either by running them to Geonosis in his fast pirating/smuggling ships, or simply producing them on Geonosis itself.

 

And can we pause for a second and think about how well the Massassi, who have no quality armor to speak of, will fair against these weapons, or really any blaster weapon?

[Warren-Stride]

However I think we should also consider the possibility of Malgus not considering the Droid Army as a threat, and considering whatever is being cooked up on Kamino to be of greater importance - he may also see it as a potential asset. And of course destroying those shipyards would ensure space superiority.

 

Well, the whole point of the Foundry was that Malgus wanted to make a new droid army akin to Revan's, so I think we're on the right track with him wanting to capture the factories of Geonosis to do just that.

 

Though he may abandon the idea once he finds out about HK-01.

[Beniboybling]

I know I'm a bit late to the blaster party, but I'm not so sure abut this.

 

So we're saying that the SWs armor is made out of durasteel, right? Durasteel is used to create starship hulls. Without a shield, the starship's hull could be penetrated by blaster cannon on fighters. Similarly, if the thickness of the durasteel and the power of the blaster are both reduced, a blaster bolt could punch through durasteel armor.

And yet frigates like the Vengeance have no shields at all, and instead depend on superthick armor. Sith Warriors are the Vengeance-class frigates of the ground.

 

Also noting that we are not taking blaster cannons, but laser cannons and turbolasers. And we cannot simply assume that power to thickness ratio is the same. Really any kind of comparison is sketchy at best.

[marcelo_sdk]

So, we have one scenario, UB trying a rush attack on Geonosis, we can continuing debating that, it has a lot of thing to be said about. But I think it's time to explore new scenarios. I have some idead, but not concrete right now, but I'll give some tought about it, and if someone has any new scenarios, please post them.

[Beniboybling]

So, we have one scenario, UB trying a rush attack on Geonosis, we can continuing debating that, it has a lot of thing to be said about. But I think it's time to explore new scenarios. I have some idead, but not concrete right now, but I'll give some tought about it, and if someone has any new scenarios, please post them.

Any thoughts on Kamino would be welcome, remembering it is shielded.

[marcelo_sdk]

Any thoughts on Kamino would be welcome, remembering it is shielded.

 

Kamino is certainly the most attractive planet for Malgus for the possibilities it's cloning facilities presents. But he knows that he needs to take or destroy Geonosis's factories first. Assuming that he succeeds and destroy the droid factories - it seems more likely, after HK begins hacking the forces, which was accepted by most as what will happen - , the most likely options for a strike are Kamino and Mon Calamari. The firts, by the resources it would provide. And the second is kind obvious: if he takes Mon Calamari, DS forces will be reduced to the already crippled navy and the Terror Units on Kamino.

 

Also, if he don't strike while his navy is clearly superios, Mon Calamri's superior shipyards could rapidly produce new ships. DS will never be able to outgun UB, as it's ships are inferior, but with Mon Calamari, they can certainly outnumber if the time is given. So, I think Malgus next move will be for Mon Calamari. To be honest, I think Kamino will come to play in the final stages of the war, or perhaps don't even have to attack it.

[StarSquirrel]

DS will never be able to outgun UB, as it's ships are inferior, but with Mon Calamari, they can certainly outnumber if the time is given.

Actually the DS has MC 80's and Venerator schematics. Given a bit of time they'll outgun and outnumber the UB.

[marcelo_sdk]

Actually the DS has MC 80's and Venerator schematics. Given a bit of time they'll outgun and outnumber the UB.

 

They don't have schematics, they have one MC 80 and some Venerators, all acquired through salvaging. If the Black Sun really had the schematics, they would have produced more, but they never did.

[StarSquirrel]

They don't have schematics, they have one MC 80 and some Venerators, all acquired through salvaging. If the Black Sun really had the schematics, they would have produced more, but they never did.

 

Firstly, they never owned shipyards large enough to build more so obviously they couldn't. That said the ships themselves have computers with all the specs, blueprints, repair info, ect... to keep the ship running. With all that you'd think G0-T0 and his droids would be able to reverse engineer it right (pretty simple concept)?

 

Secondly, the Exchange is an underworld organization, if needed it wouldn't be an issue for them to acquire said schematics through, less than legal means.

 

On top of THAT, they control the Mon Cal shipyards where the MC 80 was designed and built (another Kamino-like situation here imo) so it is safe to say that DS will have MC 80's if not Venerators as well (which btw, would have easily obtainable schematics considering it had been phased out).

 

Also, DS already outnumbers UB ship by ship. UB just has superior firepower. If DS can get enough capital ships out, UB is in trouble.

Edited September 4, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

For the blaster thing just real quick an E-11 was said to put pock marks into durasteel and E-5's had the same punching power. So while a Sith warriors armor could likely take a few shots of the E-5 it would still go down after a few, essentially saying they aren't invicible and they can only deflect so many shots, the more powerful laser cannons on the B2's will also likely take far fewer and they fire at a much faster rate so I don't think this changes the ration of cannon fodder for sith warriors being worth 120-150 B1's and only worth around 60 B2's because the shots will get through. The problem is the DS may not be able to win at geonosis and if in their first strike they can not hault production of the droid army they lose, because they wont be able to take the ground of any planet and the droids don't need food so they cant starve GO-TO out.

[Selenial]

They do Not have Schematics for MC-80's or Venators.

 

The Schematics were never on the Ship, in case it was hijaked. That's why it was Huge when R2 was lost, because he had the Schematics and Technical Readouts of all their ships.

 

Being able to access schematics that easily would have spelt doom for the Seperatists. Or any other Military for that matter, except the Republic, who had already had theirs leaked by Papa Palps.

 

TL;DR: They'd have to RE the ships to get the Schematics, which involves taking them apart piece by piece. Takes time, time the DS does not have, thanks to the efficiency of the UB in space...

[Beniboybling]

They do Not have Schematics for MC-80's or Venators.

 

The Schematics were never on the Ship, in case it was hijaked. That's why it was Huge when R2 was lost, because he had the Schematics and Technical Readouts of all their ships.

 

Being able to access schematics that easily would have spelt doom for the Seperatists. Or any other Military for that matter, except the Republic, who had already had theirs leaked by Papa Palps.

 

TL;DR: They'd have to RE the ships to get the Schematics, which involves taking them apart piece by piece. Takes time, time the DS does not have, thanks to the efficiency of the UB in space...

But with Mon Cal shipyards they'll be able to enlist the help of Mon Cal engineers who - given their experience with MC80s and the like - will be able to RE the vessel in short order. Though the same cannot be said for the Venator.

[Selenial]

But with Mon Cal shipyards they'll be able to enlist the help of Mon Cal engineers who - given their experience with MC80s and the like - will be able to RE the vessel in short order. Though the same cannot be said for the Venator.

 

No Mon Cal engineers that worked on the ships, because they, like the sith, were an organisation, and thus don't exist. Mon Calamari Engineers yes, but not the ones who worked on the ships.

 

At least, that's how I took the rules.

 

Besides, who'd work for an all droid army?

[Beniboybling]

No Mon Cal engineers that worked on the ships, because they, like the sith, were an organisation, and thus don't exist. Mon Calamari Engineers yes, but not the ones who worked on the ships.

 

At least, that's how I took the rules.

 

Besides, who'd work for an all droid army?

As the designated shipyard world the Droid Supremacy owns Mon Calamari Shipyards, however they do not have access to the ships it constructed, or the schematics, simply the expertise and resources of the organisation. Essentially they benefit from having people to run it who know what they are doing. Edited September 4, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

As the designated shipyard world the Droid Supremacy owns Mon Calamari Shipyards, however they do not have access to the ships it constructed, or the schematics, simply the expertise and resources of the organisation. Essentially they benefit from having people to run it who know what they are doing.

 

Ahh Ok, but to be honest, them RE'ing it would still take a helluvalotta time.

[tunewalker]

I don't know that the UB can win with out winning the ground war and from the looks of it they aren't likely to win said ground war. After that the DS are don't really need to engage in a space match if they can continue hit and runs are prime targets as well as constantly planting a never ending army onto the UB's worlds they will wear the UB down until there is nothing left. So they can take Mon Cal and I doubt the DS will even attempt to stop them but after wards it will be hit and runs and a invincible ground droid army (or at least invincible for the UB) 200,000 droids are to much even for the skills of the Sith warriors and massassi.

[Beniboybling]

I don't know that the UB can win with out winning the ground war and from the looks of it they aren't likely to win said ground war. After that the DS are don't really need to engage in a space match if they can continue hit and runs are prime targets as well as constantly planting a never ending army onto the UB's worlds they will wear the UB down until there is nothing left. So they can take Mon Cal and I doubt the DS will even attempt to stop them but after wards it will be hit and runs and a invincible ground droid army (or at least invincible for the UB) 200,000 droids are to much even for the skills of the Sith warriors and massassi.

If the Supremacy attempts a counter-attack, they will find it far more difficult to achieve victory on the Brotherhood's home turf. That is if they survive the intial attack, which regardless of whether successful or not will likely be devastating. Lets remember that even if one retreats, they can still do a lot of damage i.e. the Battle of Geonosis.

[tunewalker]

If the Supremacy attempts a counter-attack, they will find it far more difficult to achieve victory on the Brotherhood's home turf. That is if they survive the intial attack, which regardless of whether successful or not will likely be devastating. Lets remember that even if one retreats, they can still do a lot of damage i.e. the Battle of Geonosis.

 

it will do damage on both ends, if the Brotherhood fails then the DS can recup that damage, the botherhood cant its all or nothing at geonosis for the brotherhood but it isn't all or nothing for the DS. The DS can win with out it but the Brotherhood cant and it is very unclear that they can even win there.

[Warren-Stride]

There's been a lot of "it's only a matter of time" arguments, mostly referring to G0-T0 stockpiling forces. But up until this point G0-T0 has had very little offensive arguments. With that in mind, I'd like to point out that it is also only a matter of time until G0-T0 can successfully kill Malgus.

 

G0-T0 is pretty obviously a fan of traps and unexpected "deletions". For example, the gases of the Jekk Jekk Tar. Or the shock used to subdue the Exile. Or the mine droids used on the Visionary. All of which could be used to defeat Malgus. It's really only a matter of time until everything lines up, like it did with the Exile, and G0-T0 can pull off an assassination. A prime location would be Kamino, though that's not necessary.

 

Long story short, he DS has G0-T0 and Guri. Both of which know quite a bit about assassination, infiltration, and careful planning. They are the perfect pair to lead Malgus into a situation he simply can't walk away from. Two supercomputing cutthroats. Working together. To trap an overconfident Sith. They'll have a field day.

 

There are any number of scenarios of how they could kill him, but really that's quite a bit of detail to go into, and then there's always the "but that will never happen!" argument that will come up to block any, so I'll leave it at it's only a matter of time until they can set up Malgus' doom.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Warren-Stride