Smash balance idea

[NathanielStarr]

Yeah my sage has no knock back stuns or snares/slows totally helpless against that leap

 

They actually have some good ranged attacks too don't forget that. They don't have to channel those either.

[sithBracer]

Death in RWZ is about as common as in real life.

In premade v premade, even the other 4 pugs only die if they overextend.

 

 

Conqueror is crap. Sorry, not quite crap. It's not worse than other gear, it's just about 1% worse than a Conq/PvE mix and 1% better than random level 50 PvE pet crap.

 

 

I believe that, since the game does have respawn, players should average about 2 deaths per warzone, and the average number of deaths should not depend on average skill, assuming it's equal on both sides.

 

This is the big problem.

 

In Noobs vs Noobs matches players drop like flies, while even the worst scubs in RWZ never get to see the inside of the penalty box.

 

Defense scales massively with skill and coordination; damage and even damage concentration do not.

 

Ok, so it seems like your whole complaint is the structure of the game. When a ranked team plays a ranked team, when everyone does everything correctly, not many people die. Tanks switch guard and taunt, healers LoS and heal, and dps concentrate attacks and pressure the healer. It seems like you just don't like playing against people on your own level because they can counter what you do, know when to use mezz and DCs and instead of chasing kills coordinate together to stay alive and achieve the objective. I can understand why are like arenas.

 

Once again, what is your QQ about the healer? It seems like tanks are much more of a problem when not being able to kill someone guarding people which make your hits take next to nothing and taunting making them take 30% less than next to nothing. If there were no tanks then as I already showed with numbers there is no way healers can keep up with focus target dps.

[sithBracer]

They actually have some good ranged attacks too don't forget that. They don't have to channel those either.

 

In a 1 v 1 sages are pretty strong against marauders if they know how to kite properly, but when they are attacked 2 v 1 in a wz they go down very fast-even with a healer healing them. Marauders have some nice DCs that can keep them alive and have the controversial move "undying rage" which makes them invincible and allows a healer to heal them to full very easily. So 2 smashing marauders with kolto probe and an AoE heal on them could do A LOT of damage with no repercussions as long as they activate undying rage. By the time it disappears they could kill 2-3 of those 5 if they coordinate properly.

[Heal-To-Full]

It seems like you just don't like playing against people on your own level because they can counter what you do,

No. Have you read my post?

 

Let me recite myself:

The average number of deaths in a match between two equal teams should not depend significantly on their absolute skill level.

 

Look at real PvP games. Quake, Counter-Strike, Unreal, Battlefield, Armed Assault.

At high skill levels, just as players learn to stay alive better, they also learn to kill others better, so a deathmatch remains a deathmatch.

 

SWTOR's PvP is broken: once you reach just a bit of skill, no one ever dies.

[sithBracer]

No. Have you read my post?

 

Let me recite myself:

The average number of deaths in a match between two equal teams should not depend significantly on their absolute skill level.

 

Look at real PvP games. Quake, Counter-Strike, Unreal, Battlefield, Armed Assault.

At high skill levels, just as players learn to stay alive better, they also learn to kill others better, so a deathmatch remains a deathmatch.

 

SWTOR's PvP is broken: once you reach just a bit of skill, no one ever dies.

 

You can't really compare games like counter-strike or battlefield to this one since the mechanics are different. PvP is broken in your point of view if you compare them to a hide and shoot to kill game but that is not what this game is about. I'm not saying it's perfect, but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Also you still haven't answered my one question "why are healers to blame for this?"

Edited September 1, 2013 by sithBracer

[Yeochins]

In a 1 v 1 sages are pretty strong against marauders if they know how to kite properly, but when they are attacked 2 v 1 in a wz they go down very fast-even with a healer healing them. Marauders have some nice DCs that can keep them alive and have the controversial move "undying rage" which makes them invincible and allows a healer to heal them to full very easily. So 2 smashing marauders with kolto probe and an AoE heal on them could do A LOT of damage with no repercussions as long as they activate undying rage. By the time it disappears they could kill 2-3 of those 5 if they coordinate properly.

 

Sages/Sorcerers are not strong at all. You've been playing baddies or are one.

 

Marauders when played correctly can man-handle a Sorcerer.

[Helig]

Nerf Smash? Sorry that ship has sailed...whatever that means. I take it to mean "sorry too many people play that spec, you should too"

Too many bads play it. I'm sure you'll feel right at home rerolling Smash.

 

It's too tactically limited. That's why I mainly run Carnage.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Helig

[UndyingHadyn]

First of all, the original suggestion for a new smash, is not good. If they wanted to reduce the numbers Rage spec can deliver, they could make smash a more skill-based, frontal 180• cone attack. Not my preference, I state this only to reduce the potential infractions.

 

Secondly, competitive teams simply do not fear smash. Select from a variety of twitch channels, and you will see players simply standing there and eating it. Healing is good. Healing is damn good at its present state. Coupled with good tanks/taunts, is crazy good. The crying comes from coordinated dps strats. In this regard, Smash is simply the easiest patsy to point at. Rage spec has always been a powerfull spec. It's hilarious to see the new generation of crybabies create posts about it tho.

 

Here's an example of how another attack, examined under the same template of qq, could be examined.

 

I'll run with another Vengeance jug from time to time, and we'll coordinate our Ravages. Let me tell you...that target dies very quickly, very easily. So riddle me this... Is it then reasonable to "nerf" ravage? Or is it the result of coordinated attack strategies that truly bothers you?

 

Smash is fine. Hate the player, not the game.

[Helig]

First of all, the original suggestion for a new smash, is not good. If they wanted to reduce the numbers Rage spec can deliver, they could make smash a more skill-based, frontal 180• cone attack. Not my preference, I state this only to reduce the potential infractions.

Cone design is good when there are no server hiccups. Can't possibly fathom the number of times my Sorc/Sage cone knockback missed, despite the target being straight in the middle of the target sector. Very, very inconvenient. To subject a spec-centric skill to this kind of awfulness is to simply have a malicious intent to make Focus/Rage players suffer countless frustrations.

[NathanielStarr]

Too many bads play it. I'm sure you'll feel right at home rerolling Smash.

 

It's too tactically limited. That's why I mainly run Carnage.

 

and those bads do pretty damn good

[Helig]

and those bads do pretty damn good

Retribution Paladin syndrome. Good against bads, even in the hands of bads, nothing special against someone who knows what they're doing.

[Heal-To-Full]

What makes the Smash spec so awesome is that it's still good in the hands of a bad, excellent in the hands of a casual, and amazing in the hands of a good player.

 

Meanwhile most options suck for a bad, get good for a good player, and become amazing with the very best players.

Smash may have a low skill ceiling - but performance at it is right on par with the ceiling for every other good class.

 

In terms of class balance, Smash doesn't have any particular weaknesses. It's great in most cases and good against everything except for skilled MM snipers. You just can't go wrong with it; or you can, but the penalty for going wrong is very small.

Edited September 2, 2013 by B-Dick

[NathanielStarr]

What makes the Smash spec so awesome is that it's still good in the hands of a bad, excellent in the hands of a casual, and amazing in the hands of a good player.

 

Meanwhile most options suck for a bad, get good for a good player, and become amazing with the very best players.

Smash may have a low skill ceiling - but performance at it is right on par with the ceiling for every other good class.

 

In terms of class balance, Smash doesn't have any particular weaknesses. It's great in most cases and good against everything except for skilled MM snipers. You just can't go wrong with it; or you can, but the penalty for going wrong is very small.

 

I couldn't have said it better. Lets qualify the very best players for other classes though. The very best players on classes like dps operatives, mercs, powertechs, and sorcerers that are the top 1% with the proper support backing them. Anything less than that and they fall into the good category. Most of those players would have more success with a smashers btw.

Edited September 2, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[Helig]

I couldn't have said it better. Lets qualify the very best players for other classes though. The very best players on classes like dps operatives, mercs, powertechs, and sorcerers that are the top 1% with the proper support backing them. Anything less than that and they fall into the good category. Most of those players would have more success with a smashers btw.

By advice is - if you think Smash is so amazingly powerful - *play it*. I'm not the "underdog spec hipster" type, I prefer stronger specs, and my conscious choice is Carnage for my Marauder. Smash is very, very limited and fills an extremely narrow niche.

 

Play the class. PvP with it. Its shortcomings will become evident.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Helig

[NathanielStarr]

By advice is - if you think Smash is so amazingly powerful - *play it*. I'm not the "underdog spec hipster" type, I prefer stronger specs, and my conscious choice is Carnage for my Marauder. Smash is very, very limited and fills an extremely narrow niche.

 

Play the class. PvP with it. Its shortcomings will become evident.

 

I have an easy time on one, though admittedly I never got it to 55. I do well as long as the other team didn't have more smashers or we weren't lacking healers. The only "shortcoming" if you want to call it that is realizing which buttons you don't need to push at all and finding the 12 that you need. But all classes have a lot of buttons. It's just they have more useful ones to choose from. It's actually an embarassement of riches.

Edited September 2, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[Heal-To-Full]

Smash is very, very limited and fills an extremely narrow niche.

Play the class. PvP with it. Its shortcomings will become evident.

Well, I play Rage, Vengeance, Immortal, Veng/Immortal hybird, plus Combat and Focus.

There's really no such thing as a bad spec for Warriors and Knights of both ACs.

 

However, the times I'm in Rage and I wish was in Veng (or any other spec) are far more scarce than the times I'm in another spec and wish I was in Rage. Yes, some other specs are a little better at single target, but Rage is by no means lackluster.

 

Limited? Niche? There is a niche Rage fills - breaking a tank-healer combo. You can put pressure on them; with pushbacks or making them to evade you, you either pull them apart to break the guard or bring them together to do 150% to the tank. There's a very narrow window, between 11 and 14 meters, of distance they have to keep to avoid both. The only way you'll reliably maintain it is by focusing on one another and restricting your own mobility instead of using all your tools.

 

But while utterly superior in this niche (other classes' AOE casts/channels are a cakewalk to avoid), even outside of it you can say, "yeah, I'd be doing 10% better in another spec", but you're never really the one getting screwed, you're always doing at least well.

Among all the broken classes and specs with hair-pulling procs, interruptible casts, cleansable dots, it stands out as a spec that's done tight, that doesn't have a flaw, that just works. You can perform with it whether you just had your morning workout, your 10th red bull for the night, or your third bottle of Jack.

 

Smash is a jack of all trades and a master of quite a few.

Edited September 2, 2013 by B-Dick

[NathanielStarr]

LOL that niche is killing other classes in PvP, taking objectives and winning warzones.

[Helig]

Well, I play Rage, Vengeance, Immortal, Veng/Immortal hybird, plus Combat and Focus.

There's really no such thing as a bad spec for Warriors and Knights of both ACs.

 

However, the times I'm in Rage and I wish was in Veng (or any other spec) are far more scarce than the times I'm in another spec and wish I was in Rage. Yes, some other specs are a little better at single target, but Rage is by no means lackluster.

I also run all Warrior specs. My first main is Guardian, and I use it either as Defense (rateds, mostly), or Vigilance, myself, and, ironically, the times I wish I was Focus/Rage are much less when I run Vigilance or Carnage than vice-versa. Probably playstyle thing.

 

Limited? Niche? There is a niche Rage fills - breaking a tank-healer combo. You can put pressure on them; with pushbacks or making them to evade you, you either pull them apart to break the guard or bring them together to do 150% to the tank. There's a very narrow window, between 11 and 14 meters, of distance they have to keep to avoid both. The only way you'll reliably maintain it is by focusing on one another and restricting your own mobility instead of using all your tools.

 

But while utterly superior in this niche (other classes' AOE casts/channels are a cakewalk to avoid), even outside of it you can say, "yeah, I'd be doing 10% better in another spec", but you're never really the one getting screwed, you're always doing at least well.

Among all the broken classes and specs with hair-pulling procs, interruptible casts, cleansable dots, it stands out as a spec that's done tight, that doesn't have a flaw, that just works. You can perform with it whether you just had your morning workout, your 10th red bull for the night, or your third bottle of Jack.

 

Smash is a jack of all trades and a master of quite a few.

Rage is utterly reliant on steady support, is extremely susceptible to CC, and is only really strong when you have 2+ smashers coordinating, it has mediocre-ish utility.

 

Not saying Rage is a weak spec, mind you. It's strong. Just not quite as overpowering as some of the more vocal and apparently sore players are trying to make it look. A lot of Rage myths just go away once the player knows the spec more intimately, in more challenging conditions than pre-55 PvP.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Helig

[NathanielStarr]

 

Rage is utterly reliant on steady support, is extremely susceptible to CC, and is only really strong when you have 2+ smashers coordinating, it has mediocre-ish utility..

 

Honestly who is not reliant on steady support even more? Most only have a 1 weak shield so we need the support MORE. Who is not susceptible to CC? A lone smasher is better than most classes still btw. 2 just makes it seem like 3.

[Heal-To-Full]

Rage is utterly reliant on steady support, is extremely susceptible to CC, and is only really strong when you have 2+ smashers coordinating, it has mediocre-ish utility.

I can't say it stands out as particularly high-maintenance, but in ranked, support is a given.

In regs, you don't need it. Mercs need support, Sorcs need it, others variously use it or provide it, but Warriors, and Maras especially, are probably the most self-reliant class in any spec. I feel far more comfortable overextending as a Sentinel than as anyone else.

Only a few classes have the CC to stall off a smash auto-crit, and your rotation is much shorter than their cooldowns.

 

And while Smash does require some coordination, it's the easiest spec to coordinate. Knights/Warriors are extremely plentiful, so there's always a second and usually a third smasher around, and all you need to do is follow another smasher and do what he does. "Monkey see, monkey do", literally.

 

 

Not saying Rage is a weak spec, mind you. It's strong. Just not quite as overpowering as some of the more vocal and apparently sore players are trying to make it look. A lot of Rage myths just go away once the player knows the spec more intimately, in more challenging conditions than pre-55 PvP.

It's not a delicate spec to learn.

It's good 45-55, it's good at reg 55, it's good at ranked 55 with multiple melee.

Overpowering? Against skilled opposition, no, just one of the several leaders.

 

But if you could only ever have one character and only ever one spec, for life - which would it be?

For me, probably not smash. Probably Veng/Immortal Jugg for versatility, or one of the Agents.

But most, I believe, would have to pick a Rage Mara, and you could hardly call them wrong.

Edited September 2, 2013 by B-Dick

[Helig]

Honestly who is not reliant on steady support even more? Most only have a 1 weak shield so we need the support MORE. Who is not susceptible to CC? A lone smasher is better than most classes still btw. 2 just makes it seem like 3.

Depends heavily on the environment. I need a lot less support as Carnage/Vigilance in regs. In rateds, I just don't get focused, unless I make a stupid positioning mistake, but then again, cloak+pred takes care of most everything.

Just started running rateds on an Infiltration Shadow (we have "alts nights"), and I also feel very comfortable without heavy support. Granted, I'm more busy harassing nodes, pressuring Operative healers and assisting backline defense than shanking people in thick melee, but, quite frankly, that's the job of other classes/specs.

 

As far as ranged goes, Gunnery Commando feels extremely comfortable. Great class to reinforce your group's backline with, because it has solid peels, Electronet to assist focus fire, high-larious burst/spike damage and a significant degree of self-sufficiency between field aid and TO-heals (ironically, I find myself in less need of using TOs to fire instant gravs than to provide some spot burst heals). Admittedly, I don't run it regularly in rateds, but when I do, I'm very satisfied with its performance.

Hybrid Lightning/Madness Sorc is also quite self-sufficient. Granted, I don't run it in rateds, but I generally end regular matches to 0-1 deaths and arseloads of damage/kills.

 

So pick your poison.

In ranked, you get that support. In regs, you don't need it.

Only a few classes have the CC to stall off a smash auto-crit.

 

And while Smash does require some coordination, it's the easiest spec to coordinate. Knights/Warriors are extremely plentiful, so there's always a second and usually a third smasher around, and all you need to do is follow another smasher and do what he does. "Monkey see, monkey do", literally.

 

It's not a delicate spec to learn.

It's good 45-55, it's good at reg 55, it's good at ranked 55 with multiple melee.

Overpowering? Against skilled opposition, no, just one of the several leaders.

Quite what I said, Retribution Paladin syndrome. Good against bads in the hands of bads. Fairly balanced in competitive environment.

But if you could only ever have one character and only ever one spec, for life - which would it be?

For me, probably not smash. Probably Veng/Immortal Jugg for versatility, or one of the Agents.

But most, I believe, would have to pick a Rage Mara, and you could hardly call them wrong.

Tough choice for me. Either Vigilance, or Carnage. Or Gunnery.

 

Also, can't bear to run Veng/Immortal anymore. The loss of Unstoppable in Soresu was just too discouraging. Full Immortal has better utility in 2.0 anyway.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Helig