Plz make tankasins not suck

[Andryah]

Pure ignorance. This is not about developers designing content to force theory crafters to establish optimal group compositions. This is about developers not caring enough to test content with certain classes, or even making a reasonable effort to balance the individual classes.

 

And enough with your protips. Your demonstrated lack of competence nullifies any perceived value these condescending tidbits may have to offer.

 

Resorting to insults and making demands of others is always a good way to establish credibility in a discussion.

[Andryah]

pretty sure operations are not designed to be only beaten by certain classes maybe raiding in other games but I am fairly confident that it is biowares objective to make all classes viable in both their roles for every operation and mode

 

maybe I read your comment wrong but a game designer would have to be pretty out of touch with the game to say "sorry assassins aren't meant to tank in this fight use something else", or even worse if it was "sorry if you want to tank NIM mode don't roll a assassin tank"

 

You did in fact read my comment wrong. My point was that there are optimal and sub-optimal ways to beat an encounter. Smart raid groups figure out the optimal ways and apply them.

 

But the fact remains.. some class types are more optimal for some parts of encounters. This is true even in this more causal MMO as it has been true in MMOs for a long time now. And I do believe it is deliberate on the part of encounter designers to encourage teamwork and something other then just mindless tank and spank.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[Jimvinny]

Resorting to insults and making demands of others is always a good way to establish credibility in a discussion.

 

You would know....

 

That being said, I was not insulting you, only stating a fact. You are clearly ignorant on this matter. That is not a insult to your intelligence, only a comment on your lack of knowledge.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jimvinny

[Andryah]

You would know....

 

That being said, I was not insulting you, only stating a fact. You are clearly ignorant on this matter. That is not a insult to your intelligence, only a comment on your lack of knowledge.

 

Vain presumption does not help your cause or cred either.

 

Please stop with the name calling and insults.

 

I play this class and do well with it. It's not perfect.. no class is... they all have weaknesses. Then again.. I don't expect to be superman and solo Ops bosses either. Ops are a team effort.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[mmjarec]

Your core issue is you want to play like a stand_your_ground heavy armor tank.. but you want to do it with a finesse based cloth wearing tank. You insist that by comparing damage parses between them you can demand that Bioware fix your clothie tank to be a stand_your_ground tank. It's not going to happen... no matter how much you insult others and stomp your feet. Reroll to a tank class with mechanics suited to your desired play style.. problem solved.

 

Cloth tanks are not for everyone. Leave it to those that can and do appreciate it for what it is.. understand how to play it.. and are successful with playing it.

 

No i dont a tank with a politically charged reference. I want one that is balanced in line with other tanks and had similar capabilites. Nice try

[Jimvinny]

Vain presumption does not help your cause or cred either.

 

Please stop with the name calling and insults.

 

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit either.

 

Please, though, tell me more about credibility; I would imagine that you are just drowning in it, right?

 

*edited to point out that I did not snip, you edited after I quoted.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jimvinny

[Andryah]

No i dont a tank with a politically charged reference. I want one that is balanced in line with other tanks and had similar capabilites. Nice try

 

Play one of those "good" tank classes then and leave this one to others to play IMO.

[mmjarec]

You did in fact read my comment wrong. My point was that there are optimal and sub-optimal ways to beat an encounter. Smart raid groups figure out the optimal ways and apply them.

 

But the fact remains.. some class types are more optimal for some parts of encounters. This is true even in this more causal MMO as it has been true in MMOs for a long time now. And I do believe it is deliberate on the part of encounter designers to encourage teamwork and something other then just mindless tank and spank.

 

You can make whatever excuses you want and fact is no matter what tactic you use a sin tank fares worse numerically and until you play one and provide experience based info ts just another uninformed troll tryig to exert his will on others unjustifiably

[mmjarec]

Play one of those "good" tank classes then and leave this one to others to play IMO.

 

If you would read whats there instead of cherry picking youd realize i have multiple tanks and experience to base my information. You however just have weak insulte based on an inferior invalid biased viewpoint

[Andryah]

You can make whatever excuses you want and fact is no matter what tactic you use a sin tank fares worse numerically and until you play one and provide experience based info ts just another uninformed troll tryig to exert his will on others unjustifiably

 

Based on your behavior in other threads.. I have to say.. petty name calling is apparently a forte.

 

I'm exerting my will on nobody. I'm participating in a discussion. I'm sorry that you feel so threatened by disagreement in a public discussion... but that feeling is on you.. you own that.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

My point was that there are optimal and sub-optimal ways to beat an encounter. Smart raid groups figure out the optimal ways and apply them.

 

Which is a strange reply to a post where I point to an example of a tank not being able to tank an encounter without dying through no fault of his own, and then state that all tanks should be able to survive, but don't. Unless you consider sub-optimal as "subject to dying without any preventable action", and that that's acceptable.

[Andryah]

If you would read whats there instead of cherry picking youd realize i have multiple tanks and experience to base my information.

 

I'm very aware that you have multiple tank classes. This is precisely why I suggested you play one of those instead.

 

You however just have weak insulte based on an inferior invalid biased viewpoint

 

LOL at the irony presented here.

[Andryah]

Which is a strange reply to a post where I point to an example of a tank not being able to tank an encounter without dying through no fault of his own, and then state that all tanks should be able to survive, but don't. Unless you consider sub-optimal as "subject to dying without any preventable action", and that that's acceptable.

 

My comment was not to you. Please stop hijacking and distorting.

 

If you want to have an honest discussion.. I'm fine with that. If you are going to continue as you are.. I'll ignore you.

[MillionsKNives]

Play one of those "good" tank classes then and leave this one to others to play IMO.

 

Your solution to "we want balance" is to go play the better class?

[Jimvinny]

My comment was not to you. Please stop hijacking and distorting.

 

If you want to have an honest discussion.. I'm fine with that. If you are going to continue as you are.. I'll ignore you.

 

But you aren't demonstrating an interest in honest discussion. You seem far more interested in being patronizing and showing off your ability to use a thesaurus.

 

Your solution to a tank being flat-out incapable of tanking a certain encounter is to "play another class". But some of us don't want to play another class. I want to tank on my shadow. I want my shadow to be capable of tanking every encounter, even if it's not the ideal solution. I want BALANCE.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jimvinny

[Andryah]

Your solution to "we want balance" is to go play the better class?

 

I'm pragmatic.

 

I understand that this tank class plays differently then the other tanks. I'm also aware that there is no such thing as "class balance". All classes are by definition in an MMO at various stages of balance relative to one another. This has been true in MMOs for years now. There's always at least one red headed stepchild class at any given time.

 

It's simple really:

1) Concerns about the class have been well articulated in the class forum.

2) Some people enjoy the class and play it well in it's current state

3) Some people are not happy with the class in it's current state

4) Play a class you are OK with.. not create more threads to complain and bluster about it in general forum.

 

Since the topic is well covered and discussed in the class forum already.. this thread right here exists for one purpose.. to collect tears and throw them at anyone within reach.

 

Play a class you enjoy. I'm sure they will make adjustments over time to classes (that's what MMOs do) and this time next year.. you will be crying how this tank class is too powerful compared to the other two and the cycle will repeat endlessly until the game is closed sometime years from now.

 

Pragmatism in MMO play: play the MMO for what it offers, play it to enjoy it. make suggestions and contribute ideas.

 

Whiny redundant tearful complaint threads are not pragmatic.. they are silly and childish IMO. Does not mean I won't contribute discussion to them however.

[MillionsKNives]

My comment was not to you. Please stop hijacking and distorting.

 

If you want to have an honest discussion.. I'm fine with that. If you are going to continue as you are.. I'll ignore you.

 

Yes actually your comment was directed at me, if indirectly. The phrase I quoted was a clarification to a point you made that was made in response to my own comment. In other words, what you said in response to him was a simple rephrasing of a comment you made to me.

 

I found the rephrased version (being written as an attempt to clarify meaning) more apt a quote to use for my response than the original (which by needing clarification, would imply that it is less representative of your original meaning). I would argue that I provided less distortion of your argument by responding the way I did than I would have otherwise. If not I would appreciate you pointing out how and what I have distorted.

[Andryah]

But you aren't demonstrating an interest in honest discussion. You seem far more interested in being patronizing and showing off your ability to use a thesaurus.

 

Nonsense. I am discussing the topic with other players. I am allowed to disagree with you and explain why. Get over yourself IMO.

 

Your solution to a tank being flat-out incapable of tanking a certain encounter is to "play another class". But some of us don't want to play another class. I want to tank on my shadow. I want my shadow to be capable of tanking every encounter, even if it's not the ideal solution. I want BALANCE.

 

You have two choices... wallow in apparent misery.. or go play something fun (either in this game or some other game). Or.. like some others.. you could play this class and stop complaining... others are doing so.. why can't you?

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Yes actually your comment was directed at me, if indirectly.

 

 

You are not the center of the universe.

 

Indirectly directed at you.. that's a new one.

[Jimvinny]

I'm pragmatic.

 

I understand that this tank class plays differently then the other tanks. I'm also aware that there is no such thing as "class balance". All classes are by definition in an MMO at various stages of balance relative to one another. This has been true in MMOs for years now. There's always at least one red headed stepchild class at any given time.

 

It's simple really:

1) Concerns about the class have been well articulated in the class forum.

2) Some people enjoy the class and play it well in it's current state

3) Some people are not happy with the class in it's current state

4) Play a class you are OK with.. not create more threads to complain and bluster about it in general forum.

 

Since the topic is well covered and discussed in the class forum already.. this thread right here exists for one purpose.. to collect tears and throw them at anyone within reach.

 

Play a class you enjoy. I'm sure they will make adjustments over time to classes (that's what MMOs do) and this time next year.. you will be crying how this tank class is too powerful compared to the other two and the cycle will repeat endlessly until the game is closed sometime years from now.

 

Pragmatism in MMO play: play the MMO for what it offers, play it to enjoy it. make suggestions and contribute ideas.

 

Whiny redundant tearful complaint threads are not pragmatic.. they are silly and childish IMO. Does not mean I won't contribute discussion to them however.

 

Oh, the irony.

 

I wonder how many of the posts in this whiny, redundant, tearful complaint thread can be directly attributed to your involvement. Either by you commenting yourself, or by other replying to you. I wonder if this thread would have died a slow death on page 2 and beyond if you hadn't felt the need to correct everyone.

 

At this point, this thread only exists for 2 reasons; for Andryah to show herself how smart she sounds, and for all those foolish enough to try, to show her how silly she is.

 

Anyways, back to work!

[Andryah]

let's distill all this down to some common sense. eh?

 

This thread is redundant to class threads already in play.

 

I'll continue to play my cloth tank.. warts and all.. because it's fun and it matters not how it compares to other tank classes to me.. it matters if I can get the job done with it. And I can.

 

You do whatever you want to do.

 

Class balance is an myth. No such thing in MMOs. There are years of tears in MMO forums to prove this. So the argument for "class balance" a red herring to the entire discussion.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Oh, the irony.

 

I wonder how many of the posts in this whiny, redundant, tearful complaint thread can be directly attributed to your involvement. Either by you commenting yourself, or by other replying to you. I wonder if this thread would have died a slow death on page 2 and beyond if you hadn't felt the need to correct everyone.

 

At this point, this thread only exists for 2 reasons; for Andryah to show herself how smart she sounds, and for all those foolish enough to try, to show her how silly she is.

 

Anyways, back to work!

 

bye bye

[MillionsKNives]

 

You are not the center of the universe.

 

Indirectly directed at you.. that's a new one.

 

I never claimed to be. Let's not pretend that you don't know what I mean, despite your shallow representation to the contrary?

 

If I shine a laser pointer at you through a mirror I am still directing it at you, indirectly.

 

Now would you prefer to address my contentions or continue to ignore them in favor of snarky comments.

 

Class balance is an myth. No such thing in MMOs. There are years of tears in MMO forums to prove this. So the argument for "class balance" a red herring to the entire discussion.

 

Then why bother changing classes at all. If no one attempted to achieve balance then we should still have all classes play the same as they did from launch.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Andryah]

I never claimed to be. Let's not pretend that you don't know what I mean, despite your shallow representation to the contrary?

 

If I shine a laser pointer at you through a mirror I am still directing it at you, indirectly.

 

Now would you prefer to address my contentions or continue to ignore them in favor of snarky comments.

 

 

 

Then why bother changing classes at all. If no one attempted to achieve balance then we should still have all classes play the same as they did from launch.

 

I stand by my earlier comments.

[Kitru]

See.. this is classic "stand your ground" tactics and thinking. It's simply an outdated concept in the modern MMO era. Maybe I have the benefit of having played rogue tanks in Rift.. so the mechanics of finesse over stand your ground are more real to me.

 

I'm curious how exactly one would "finesse" that situation. We're talking about a 43k hit on someone with 41k hp. The attack comes up more often than a DR CD or adrenal is available for it (it can still punch through Deflection) so it's not like you're able to click anything. You could argue that a Sage should throw a bubble up on you right as the cast is landing, but that's not really "finesse" since it's not the tank doing it at all. Maybe they're supposed to stop tanking and give threat to someone else? But, at that point, you're just telling them not to tank because they can't. Maybe you're supposed to have a Gunslinger put up his shield to keep you alive. Once again, that's not a tool in the *Shadow's* tool kit; that's the Gunslinger and, even if you're saying that Shadows should be *forced* to run with a Gunslinger or a Sage healer, your finesse argument still doesn't stand because that's not something that *you* have access to. That's having to rely upon someone else to do your own job for you, which is pretty much *the* definition of being incapable of doing your job.

 

The entire argument is that you *cannot* finesse a Shadow tank in the spike damage situations that they are *forced* to go through as part of their job at tanking. Arguing that you *can* finesse a Shadow tank on fights like Ops Chief is simply laughable. You *can't* finesse it because it's entirely RNG based. There isn't anything in the tank's control that they can use to actually survive said bad RNG. Sure, you can use Battle Readiness to ensure survival on the first one, blow an Exotech Adrenal on the second, but, after those 2, you're going to be forced to use an RNG based mechanism: Deflection, use relic, etc. You can't argue "finesse" when there simply aren't the tools available to *allow* you to utilize skill to survive.

 

Seriously, if we're playing it wrong, start telling us how to survive. If you have some super secret method for doing so that isn't just having the other tank do it, let us know. It's all well and good to say "l2play" but, unless you can actually *tell us* how to play, especially when we're saying that you *cannot* play it such that you will survive, your argument doesn't hold water.

 

Also, as someone said before, anecdotal evidence, which is all you've got, isn't the same as the massive amount of actual *empirical* evidence that also supported by *****ton* of theory. We've got *craptons* of parses that show a Shadow tank taking 80+% of their total hp in less than 1 GCD. Hell, we've got parses that actually show Shadow tanks tanking more than their entire hp bar in less than 2 GCDs. And, even better, a lot of these parses just so happen to be from fights where the burst DPS *cannot* be predicted so, unless you can tell how the RNG is going to behave, you can't even pop a CD to avoid it.

 

Basically, your argument is conjecture ("Shadows are finesse tanks and the only reason you're having problems is because you're not playing them right") and anecdote ("I do fine so obviously the class is awesome"); our argument, on the other hand, is logic ("Shadows are incapable of actually having a non-RNG based survivability mechanism for every instance of burst damage as well as having a chance if completely unsurvivable and unpredictable spikes"), sound theory ("We have put together 3 separate models available for public scrutiny that demonstrate that there are fundamental problems that prevent Shadows from being able to perform at or acceptably near the same level as the other tanks"), and empirical evidence ("we've actually got the parses to prove it").

 

So, yeah, *obviously* we're just whining and need to learn to play because the class isn't screwed up. It's not like we didn't look into the possibility that it might be an l2play issue before doing all of the math, data gathering, and information analysis that we've done. Of *course* we overlooked that most simple of solutions that doesn't even actually make sense under any kind of scrutiny.

 

Seriously, you can talk as fancifully as you want (honestly, I didn't even think it was that impressive; I was writing like that in 4th grade, though, at that time, I at least had a grasp of basic logic which seems to escape you), but when your argument is completely vacuous, it doesn't matter *how* you dress it up: it's still just worthless rhetoric.