ops/scoundrel dps

[Gren-Aluren]

I sincerely look forward to you all getting spots on arena teams and showing us how viable the class is.

 

Simple fact, without some buffs and adjustments there is zero reason to bring an operative of either DPS spec over another class (assuming skill is equal). Making a fight 4v4 rather than 8v8 doesn't change that, seriously the amount of non 55 characters and people with no idea on how competitive PvP works in this thread is amazing.

 

Actually the size of the team battle does matter. Scoundrel has always performed outstandingly well in OWPVP in small team combat which essentially what arenas are. They lack the utility and survivability to maintain combat for prolonged periods of time in large group battles in small confined spaces such as defending/attacking an objective. There is also the issue where classes or specs can appear in more then one slot on a team in 8v8s which upsets balance and counters which makes very few classes/specs viable. This will not be the case in 4v4.

You honestly think the current 8v8 BiS classes/specs will still be the big dogs on campus in 4v4? There will be more viable specs and more viable classes with the exception of the healer classes.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[HBMalachorfive]

Honestly the only real issue I've found with playing my DF scoundrel is that in prolonged fights energy management, even with pugnancy and cool head, can be a little troublesome. I love how this spec can rip tanks apart if they don't have a healer. After initial setup 5 wounding shots later they are at roughly 30% health or less (depending on crits, and the RnG gods). The beauty about wounding shots is that the 2 extra attacks are not white damage they are internal.

Yes this spec and class are squishy but a well played one will outperform most other DoT spec classes even if they are well played.

[Ravashakk]

OP is right.

 

Survivability isn't that bad on DF because you aren't locked to 4m. In 4v4 I see no reason this spec won't be viable.

 

Survivability IS an issue when you are single target bursting and have to get close. We don't have FF protection....all our defensive cooldowns are avoidance outside of shield probe which is laughable. If we sit in the back and do what the masses think that we ONLY do (tab dot) then sure survivability isn't an issue.

[Zunayson]

My main is an operative.

 

I love lethality, it has very good sustained damage, and 3 culls in a row are devastating, the free kolto infusion from roll is also very good.

 

Concealment is also very good at bursting when you do it right. HOWEVER, deception assassin does the same thing and is even better. Concealment can off heal and throw down an orbital and flashbang, but it seriously needs a bit better survivability.

 

Proof:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/conejellos/c/2766647

 

Are you the streamer in that link?

[Godlymuppet]

I sincerely look forward to you all getting spots on arena teams and showing us how viable the class is.

 

Simple fact, without some buffs and adjustments there is zero reason to bring an operative of either DPS spec over another class (assuming skill is equal). Making a fight 4v4 rather than 8v8 doesn't change that, seriously the amount of non 55 characters and people with no idea on how competitive PvP works in this thread is amazing.

 

Your forgetting something very important. While I don't doubt that the top 10% of teams, will have very set classes (which could change, with balance changes), for the other 90% of teams, having the very best team composition, is not as important. So for 90% of teams viable is what matters, not optimal.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather be in the 90% and play a class/spec I enjoy than in the 10% and playing sawbones.

 

Also, as they are adding matchmaking, those 10% won't be playing against everybody else, just themselves, so non optimal teams won't have to worry about them.

 

Arenas are going to be a whole lot more popular than ranked was. So we are going to see an influx of new players playing it. It won't just be the same old hardcore players from ranked, that played fotm classes only (even the old 8 man teams won't break down in to 2 optimal arena teams). There will be players playing the classes they enjoy, end game PVP just went casual, shocking I know.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Godlymuppet

[Zerogates]

I sincerely look forward to you all getting spots on arena teams and showing us how viable the class is.

 

Simple fact, without some buffs and adjustments there is zero reason to bring an operative of either DPS spec over another class (assuming skill is equal). Making a fight 4v4 rather than 8v8 doesn't change that, seriously the amount of non 55 characters and people with no idea on how competitive PvP works in this thread is amazing.

 

Just to clarify, my sig is not accurate, so I hope you were not trying to use that.

 

Please, tell me more about how often you can get those 2.5s cast heals off. Even if they don't interrupt you and the heal crits you take more damage than the heal was worth. Can't flash bang and heal because everyone else is aoe/aoe dotting people constantly and your two defensive CDs melt immediately under any sort of ff. DPS ops won't be any more viable in arenas than 8v8s IMO.

 

My cast time for underworld medicine is 1.8 seconds on my DF scoundrel, it builds upperhand which allows me to use more wounding shots, I can get an instant-use heal from a proc on my roll ability, my AOE and regular dots do not effect my flashbang, and I would seriously hope you are not equating stupidity as some sort of reason for why scoundrels are not viable as a DPS.

 

The stupidity part being players who AOE break AOE stuns...this is PVP 101 here and you are acting like serious PVPers are going to be doing this all the time.

 

 

 

P.S. During the gree event me and a sentinel were taking on groups of 4 while I was in DPS spec, the heals are difficult to use if you are against a good group, but if you are not the main healer then you can heal quite well while building upperhands for DPSing. Of course, my points in the heal tree may be uncommon, they work very well in small groups and 1 v 1.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Zerogates

[KevMeup]

For some comedy..

 

8v8 Ranked with all Lethality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklx3BQIV4w

[Ravashakk]

For some comedy..

 

8v8 Ranked with all Lethality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklx3BQIV4w

 

Nice to see someone else ran with my ideas.

[Racter]

That's cool, concealment needs the 30s stun more, number 1, though I do pick up that talent for duels. Number 2, that heal and your instant proc heal (which conc also doesn't have) do not heal you for jack *********** squat when you're actually getting attacked. A single DPS can way outburst both of those and not even have to interrupt your cast.

 

lol @ serious pvp'rs not AOEing, you do realize that smash (and more often than not double smash) is going to be a staple in every serious comp that gets anywhere right? Go play a few arenas or 4v4s and get back to me when you wake up. You can't use corrosive grenade at all, burning someone down requires coordinated mez, you will NEVER be able to rely on your fb to cc the healer and tank to setup a burst combo period, which means 1s into the mes your dots just broke one or both of them out and now your focus target is guarded and/or getting healed and/or got peels and didn't die gg

 

All of which is irrelevant because before the game even starts every teams plan is to instagib you the second you pop out of stealth anywhere, instantly making it a 4v3. Operatives are by FAR the squishiest DPS in the game, your probe stops less than half a smash and evasion is totally worthless when you're getting trained. The class can be raped in <5s even with ccing the tank/heals and because of this you will see exactly zero DPS ops in serious teams. Did you even play on the PTS this weekend? Their a joke, same as on live. Out of the 40+ games I played this weekend, I saw a whopping 6 teams willingly running dps operatives (all but one of which were almost instant 4v3s, as I mentioned above) and every time I saw one in the solos it was the same plan. Pop the op.

 

tl;dr get real dude without serious defensive buffs there is zero zilch nada chance of DPS ops doing well in arenas. Wouldn't matter if we could do 20k in 2-3 globals, without survivability it's irrelevant.

 

Btw, the one comp it worked with? 3 smash maras and a conc op. AOE stealth setup for an instagib.

[Zerogates]

Operative in voice chat "AOE stun inc"

 

Rest of the group holds off on spamming tons of AOE.

 

 

When this becomes complicated let me know.

 

Also, just because you can't survive on an operative/scoundrel does not mean others cannot. You may have your strengths with other classes, but do not assume your failure is universal to all of us.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Zerogates

[Racter]

Operative in voice chat "AOE stun inc"

 

Rest of the group holds off on spamming tons of AOE.

 

 

When this becomes complicated let me know.

 

Also, just because you can't survive on an operative/scoundrel does not mean others cannot. You may have your strengths with other classes, but do not assume your failure is universal to all of us.

 

Okay bro, clearly your god's gift to operative DPS and the classes blatantly obvious weaknesses do not apply to you. Enjoy being in the 1000 bracket for life

[Ravashakk]

Okay bro, clearly your god's gift to operative DPS and the classes blatantly obvious weaknesses do not apply to you. Enjoy being in the 1000 bracket for life

 

Maybe he doesn't give a **** about his rating and wants to have fun with the class/spec he likes instead of being a Fotm rerolling ***** just to get a better rating.

 

Even if he had a 4k rating someone would say "you aren't on 'x' server so ur rating doesn't matter."

[Gren-Aluren]

Maybe he doesn't give a **** about his rating and wants to have fun with the class/spec he likes instead of being a Fotm rerolling ***** just to get a better rating.

 

Even if he had a 4k rating someone would say "you aren't on 'x' server so ur rating doesn't matter."

 

+1

 

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

[Deviltreh]

That only applies to your own cc. Not other people's. I agree that dirty fighting scoundrels can do huge Dps though, I break 700k (with most killing blows) on mine quite a lot. Very few do more damage than me in a wz. But shhhhh, no one expects the back end burst, keep it that way.

 

700k while multi dotting? Right now my Arsenal Merc is 47 and I do 600-700k SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE

 

Aoe dots are irrelevant, 8k heatseeker missiles to the healer followed by 5k rail shot - yeah.

[Godlymuppet]

700k while multi dotting? Right now my Arsenal Merc is 47 and I do 600-700k SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE

 

Aoe dots are irrelevant, 8k heatseeker missiles to the healer followed by 5k rail shot - yeah.

 

Ill say it again for the hard of hearing. We are only comparing Dps specs of scoundrel, for those who want to Dps on their scoundrel. What you do on you aunt fanny class does not matter (I can easy break 1m on my slinger with single target). That's not what we are discussing.

 

I know full well what the optimal teams will be and that it will include a scoundrel but not a Dps one. People seem to be forgetting about match making, all compositions will be able to do arena, just some will be at lower/mid ratings.

 

Some people play for the love of a class and don't want to join a sawbones, guardian and two Mara team.

 

Only the top 10-20% of teams need to think about optimal teams, the other 80% won't play against them after ratings are awarded, due to match making.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Godlymuppet

[Ravashakk]

700k while multi dotting? Right now my Arsenal Merc is 47 and I do 600-700k SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE

 

Aoe dots are irrelevant, 8k heatseeker missiles to the healer followed by 5k rail shot - yeah.

 

And I've done >2k dps against a team that didnt have 5 healers, and games in the 2 million area. No I havent played in any stalemated nc/cw since coming back. I'd prob break 3 -4 if I had.

 

Before you start yapping your gums about tab dotting, only 45% of my dmg was from dot sources most games. While u hit 8k then 5k, I was culling for 7k then 7k then 1-2 more culls while you tried to get LOS.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Ravashakk

[Godlymuppet]

And I've done >2k dps against a team that didnt have 5 healers, and games in the 2 million area. No I havent played in any stalemated nc/cw since coming back. I'd prob break 3 -4 if I had.

 

Before you start yapping your gums about tab dotting, only 45% of my dmg was from dot sources most games. While u hit 8k then 5k, I was culling for 7k then 7k then 1-2 more culls while you tried to get LOS.

 

It's not worth arguing about the figures. Some people don't understand that parses don't get inflated by aoe. Lethality ops single target parse very close to the highest of all classes, which is single target only, but people still think most of our damage is fluff aoe. Muppets.

[Racter]

Ill say it again for the hard of hearing. We are only comparing Dps specs of scoundrel, for those who want to Dps on their scoundrel. What you do on you aunt fanny class does not matter (I can easy break 1m on my slinger with single target). That's not what we are discussing.

 

I know full well what the optimal teams will be and that it will include a scoundrel but not a Dps one. People seem to be forgetting about match making, all compositions will be able to do arena, just some will be at lower/mid ratings.

 

Some people play for the love of a class and don't want to join a sawbones, guardian and two Mara team.

 

Only the top 10-20% of teams need to think about optimal teams, the other 80% won't play against them after ratings are awarded, due to match making.

 

Basically see previous post, I've broken 1m as concealment quite a few times if the other team doesn't sit on me the second I come out of stealth. Doesn't mean I'm going to be playing my operative in even a somewhat serious 4s team unless they buff the **** out of and give us additional DCDs. FOTM Reroll is a cute insult considering I've had a Jugg, Mara and Sent since 2011.

 

Even when doing solo queue on the pts, the strat is always going to be the same. Kill the DPS Op. We're not just easy to kill, we are the EASIEST to kill. Until we are not the obvious bottom of the totem pole, these two specs will not be viable. I'm not even talking optimal (top 10% or whatever you want to call it), I'm talking about playable. If you can be killed in a single stun while guarded with all your DCDs popped WHILE GUARDED AND GETTING HEALED, you will not be welcome anywhere near competitive pvp. Especially not when 3/4 of the team you're going to see in competitive pvp can hit you for 12-24k the second you hit 30% HP.

 

You can argue this all you want, get on the PTS and try and pug a group. Or bring your team, and try and win some games. Good luck.

[Godlymuppet]

Basically see previous post, I've broken 1m as concealment quite a few times if the other team doesn't sit on me the second I come out of stealth. Doesn't mean I'm going to be playing my operative in even a somewhat serious 4s team unless they buff the **** out of and give us additional DCDs. FOTM Reroll is a cute insult considering I've had a Jugg, Mara and Sent since 2011.

 

Even when doing solo queue on the pts, the strat is always going to be the same. Kill the DPS Op. We're not just easy to kill, we are the EASIEST to kill. Until we are not the obvious bottom of the totem pole, these two specs will not be viable. I'm not even talking optimal (top 10% or whatever you want to call it), I'm talking about playable. If you can be killed in a single stun while guarded with all your DCDs popped WHILE GUARDED AND GETTING HEALED, you will not be welcome anywhere near competitive pvp. Especially not when 3/4 of the team you're going to see in competitive pvp can hit you for 12-24k the second you hit 30% HP.

 

You can argue this all you want, get on the PTS and try and pug a group. Or bring your team, and try and win some games. Good luck.

I know what your saying and your not wrong. On the pts Dps ops will get ganked.

 

I just happen to believe that only the more serious people will be on the pts, which will mostly be the top 20% when it goes live. The more casual players will not be on the pts.

 

I know what classes play well and I actually fear that if I want to be in a top team, ill have to be sawbones. I don't think that even my slinger will be able to get top ratings, like it can in 8v8 now.

[Zerogates]

And I've done >2k dps against a team that didnt have 5 healers, and games in the 2 million area. No I havent played in any stalemated nc/cw since coming back. I'd prob break 3 -4 if I had.

 

Before you start yapping your gums about tab dotting, only 45% of my dmg was from dot sources most games. While u hit 8k then 5k, I was culling for 7k then 7k then 1-2 more culls while you tried to get LOS.

 

It's generally the same with the way I spec, when the damage starts it just streams out until the target dies usually.

 

The majority of the DoT damage is also to a single-target, not to an entire group, or do people not think that DoT damage matters on a target you are also doing your single-target DPS to? It just happens that the people around my target are also getting DoTs, but I've not even had my lethality sniper produce as much single target DPS because of the way the upper hands / tactical advantages and the whip / knife proc works.

 

 

Why should I play something else if it works for me and it is a lot of fun? No one is questioning the strength of the "top 3" but to argue nothing else should even be used is just non-sense.

[snave]

It's generally the same with the way I spec, when the damage starts it just streams out until the target dies usually.

 

The majority of the DoT damage is also to a single-target, not to an entire group, or do people not think that DoT damage matters on a target you are also doing your single-target DPS to? It just happens that the people around my target are also getting DoTs, but I've not even had my lethality sniper produce as much single target DPS because of the way the upper hands / tactical advantages and the whip / knife proc works.

 

 

Why should I play something else if it works for me and it is a lot of fun? No one is questioning the strength of the "top 3" but to argue nothing else should even be used is just non-sense.

 

If you want to play for fun that's great, I play concealment because it's fun no one is arguing about funs per second in pvp. People are simply pointing out that both DPS specs for operatives are bad and that's simply a fact, I'm sure you do just fine vs pugs and whatnot and I'm sure you have a lot of fun but some people would actually like the class to be viable in real competitive pvp is all.

 

As it stands both Leth and Conc ops will be burst down in pretty much no time at all by any competent team, that's in both arena and rwz so their damage output is pretty irrelevant. Some people think both specs will do better in a 4v4 environment but I don't particularly agree with that either.

 

Glad you enjoy playing Lethality and glad you stuck with it but I'm sorry mate no amount of your posturing on the forums makes this class remotely viable in any sensible set up. I get that if you're just playing for fun and if the matchmaking system works then you'll get some measure of success against the lower/middle teams but again, that doesn't make the class balanced or really viable it just means you don't mind losing to teams with a better set up as opposed to losing to teams with better players.

 

Not having a go at you, I enjoy reading your defence of lethality I'm just injecting a little bit of reality here.

[Zerogates]

What I am having problems with in most of these arguments is how DPS scoundrels can be considered the absolute worst at surviving yet healer scoundrels are the best healers. I could offer an extesive list of differences but let me just shorten this by saying both DPS skill trees offer more or better survival tools or stuns.. A significant difference is also that if I need to survive I can expend energy for getting away where as when I am heal spec my energy can rarely be spared for a series of escape rolls. Keep in mind that if you are not healing then someone else is.

 

As an example of a match, you have a heal scoundrel and a DPS scoundrel in the same group. Would everyone say the DPS scoundrel would be instantly killed while a heal scoundrel would be nearly immortal in the fight? As a legitimate question to everyone, why is it that a healer can keep himself alive while guarded more easily than keeping a DPS of the same class alive while they are guarded instead?

 

 

The DoT specs are a serious threat and produce substantial damage, so if the only issue is their survival then I would appreciate an explaination of why they have a problem with surviving beyond "because they have a problem with surviving". Just to clarify, I have never said scoundrels are not a squishy class, but being squishy and being unable to survive are two entirely different things.

[Gren-Aluren]

If you can be killed in a single stun while guarded with all your DCDs popped WHILE GUARDED AND GETTING HEALED

 

That's not even remotely true. Then Gunslinger and Sages would also be in that group. That statement can only be true in 8v8 where you will have more then 2 DPS focus firing you and only one healer and tank guarding/healing you.

 

The ONLY issue why DF Scoundrel cannot be on the top rated team is because DoTs break ally mezzes. Lack of survivablity is not as exaggerated to a skilled Scoundrel who knows how to react to focus fire unless there is a Commando on enemy team.

 

Scrapper however is crap because of it's requirement to be 4m to deal a majority of it's damage. It's only relevant in open world PvP when ganking.

 

As an example of a match, you have a heal scoundrel and a DPS scoundrel in the same group. Would everyone say the DPS scoundrel would be instantly killed while a heal scoundrel would be nearly immortal in the fight? As a legitimate question to everyone, why is it that a healer can keep himself alive while guarded more easily than keeping a DPS of the same class alive while they are guarded instead?

Because people are stupid. They cry about Scoundrel Sawbones having insane survivability but then turn around and say that DPS Scoundrel die instantly. Same ****** defensive cooldowns and ironically they are more powerful in the DPS specs.

 

Scoundrel defense comes from stealth, mobility and ability to use cover. Nobody seems to use cover correctly in this game or ignore that they can cover in place to prevent Jedi Knight classes from leaping to them or being pulled. Roll to cover can even be used offensively to close gaps if cover exists between you and your target.

 

One problem with their survivability comes from the fact that anyone with a slow or root can shut down their defense; mobility. They lack AoE damage mitigation or an ability that mitigates damage for it's full duration that most specs offer. Defense Screen only blocks the first 3k-5k damage then collapses. Garbage.

 

There are 18 DPS trees, not all of them are going to be considered the best for competitive PvP. Scoundrel DPS, the last two fat kids to be picked on a dodgeball team...

Edited August 20, 2013 by Gren-Aluren