Rough Draft submissions and vote thread

[Luckygunslinger]

I fixed a few grammatical errors and spelling. I also tweaked a few phrases while additionally respecting the original train of thought you presented. Anyone else think we should press the "submit" button on ^this version?

 

Looks good, first get the okay from Enalis first, just let him have a read over it before we send it on in.

[UncleOst]

Looks good, first get the okay from Enalis first, just let him have a read over it before we send it on in.

 

In addition we'll need a few more votes to support it. Give it more time for people to examine.

[ArenCordial]

Despite Enalis for doing a great job of spelling out our concerns, the problem remains that we need questions. Unless I missed them in the wall of text (certainly possible), I don't think we're quite ready for submission.

 

Also I've included a useful link below that we might find helpful to include if you interested. Its a discussion with a designer on why the training dummy is a bad meter to gauge a class' dps. Its mainly to do with Assassins but they include a break down of what's missing for each class in dummy parsing. Vigilance/Vengeance is considered optimal. I find that a bit funny because every melee class has a spec that has put up higher numbers than Juggs (Lethality Operative, Hybrid Powertechs, Marauders). Only Assassins have it worse than us and they are apparently very unoptimized for dummy parses while we are optimal.

 

http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/03/assassin-developer-interview.html

Edited August 15, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UncleOst]

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

 

 

PVE Question:

 

- We are very happy with our current Jug pve experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec.

 

 

General Question

 

- Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this?

 

aargh..

 

I switched the the pve and pvp domains.. Do you see how trivial they were? I also added one sentence regarding a separate threat dump request. I think Enalis' post would be better served in the lore section, for it literally describes the juggernaut condition. That said, It is really too long. I am going to rest on this.

 

If you all refuse my questions above, in light of our Rep's disappearance, I would then herald SSfish. SSfish was the runner up, and I'd rather place faith into his command of where we go next. I personally thank you Enalis, but I apologize as well.

 

SSFISH. You reading this?

[arkitip]

Go figure, vote someone in that never made an appearance on the forums, they still don't make appearances on the forums.

 

The questions are, IMO, still a little long winded and more of a "hey check out our cool ideas!" but it's definitely progress.

 

I haven't been keeping up much because of work and I've switched back to playing my Marauder for the moment.

[Loufu]

Go figure, vote someone in that never made an appearance on the forums, they still don't make appearances on the forums.

 

The questions are, IMO, still a little long winded and more of a "hey check out our cool ideas!" but it's definitely progress.

 

I haven't been keeping up much because of work and I've switched back to playing my Marauder for the moment.

 

This is what I fear would happen and it actually did. The dude probably bought votes like the Operative class rep. Never started any threads and giving out useful insight, etc etc. Probably unsub'd by now seeing he focuses on pvp and 8v8 rwz is gone in 2.4. Proof us wrong if you are reading this, lMarlFox.

 

Anyway, good call on switching to Mara - I did that too. There's just no place for Jugg in serious progression team. Mara does everything better especially bloodthirst for the group.

 

Edit: Not sure if it was Scoundrel or Operative class rep, but either or.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Loufu

[MarkXXIV]

Go figure, vote someone in that never made an appearance on the forums, they still don't make appearances on the forums.

 

The questions are, IMO, still a little long winded and more of a "hey check out our cool ideas!" but it's definitely progress.

 

I haven't been keeping up much because of work and I've switched back to playing my Marauder for the moment.

 

We voted for him because we think he is the best to help us with jug pvp issues. You are also a great jug though.

[MarkXXIV]

This is what I fear would happen and it actually did. The dude probably bought votes like the Operative class rep. Never started any threads and giving out useful insight, etc etc. Probably unsub'd by now seeing he focuses on pvp and 8v8 rwz is gone in 2.4. Proof us wrong if you are reading this, lMarlFox.

 

Anyway, good call on switching to Mara - I did that too. There's just no place for Jugg in serious progression team. Mara does everything better especially bloodthirst for the group.

 

Edit: Not sure if it was Scoundrel or Operative class rep, but either or.

 

The developers need to balance this game way more often for pvp and pve if they are not ever going to get it right. once or twice a year is terrible.

[UncleOst]

Edit Report Post Quote

 

 

 

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by UncleOst View Post

 

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

 

 

PVE Question:

 

- We are very happy with our current Jug pve experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec.

 

General Question

 

- Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this?

aargh..

 

 

 

 

 

I switched the the pve and pvp domains.. Do you see how trivial they were? I also added one sentence regarding a separate threat dump request. I think Enalis' post would be better served in the lore section, for it literally describes the juggernaut condition. That said, It is really too long. I am going to rest on this.

 

If you all refuse my questions above, in light of our Rep's disappearance, I would then herald SSfish. SSfish was the runner up, and I'd rather place faith into his command of where we go next. I personally thank you Enalis, but I apologize as well.

 

 

 

 

SSFISH. You reading this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...reposted for importance.

[lMarlfoxl]

I have not posted within the past two weeks on the forums because I have had issues with work and other family stuff. I think its absurd for you to say that I bought votes when in fact people voted me for my skill and competence on a Juggernaut. That being said, I am very aware of everything being discussed on the forums and am trying to summarize and get other input from players in the game. As I've stated in previous threads for PvP, Dps Trees biggest problems are their cooldowns "Enraged Defense" being the most noticeable. The enraged defense in vengeance isn't even as good as one of the marauder cooldowns and for rage its absolute trash. I believe that the cooldowns should trump the dps issues and should be a main priority. When discussing PvE I think that the threat drop is a bigger issue than the proc based dps rotation, because dps juggernauts are around the third highest parser's. That being said I think a theres a way the dev's could fix the threat drop problem by attaching an aoe threat drop to intimidating roar since its not used very much in PvE Operations or Flashpoints. This idea was stated a while back in a previous thread and it seems to me to be the best solution to this problem. I am still working on what kind of question I think should be asked for the third part. If we could use this thread to post questions that want to be asked instead of solutions to problems it will provide me a better outline in which to post these questions. Within the next couple of days I will be posting my proposed questions and will be looking forward to educated responses from the community.

[arkitip]

I have not posted within the past two weeks on the forums because I have had issues with work and other family stuff. I think its absurd for you to say that I bought votes when in fact people voted me for my skill and competence on a Juggernaut. That being said, I am very aware of everything being discussed on the forums and am trying to summarize and get other input from players in the game. As I've stated in previous threads for PvP, Dps Trees biggest problems are their cooldowns "Enraged Defense" being the most noticeable. The enraged defense in vengeance isn't even as good as one of the marauder cooldowns and for rage its absolute trash. I believe that the cooldowns should trump the dps issues and should be a main priority. When discussing PvE I think that the threat drop is a bigger issue than the proc based dps rotation, because dps juggernauts are around the third highest parser's. That being said I think a theres a way the dev's could fix the threat drop problem by attaching an aoe threat drop to intimidating roar since its not used very much in PvE Operations or Flashpoints. This idea was stated a while back in a previous thread and it seems to me to be the best solution to this problem. I am still working on what kind of question I think should be asked for the third part. If we could use this thread to post questions that want to be asked instead of solutions to problems it will provide me a better outline in which to post these questions. Within the next couple of days I will be posting my proposed questions and will be looking forward to educated responses from the community.

 

You're off base in thinking that a threat drop is a bigger issue than the RNG of proc rates for PVE DPS.

[ssfish]

You are out of touch if you think we are the "third highest parsers" in a field littered with Marauders, Operatives, and Snipers. We also fall behind Sorcs and Mercenaries, largely due to their ability to ignore a number of mechanics with range, but on the dummy parses as well. We are on about even ground with Powertechs, and ahead of Assassins in generic DPS. A viable threat dump, while it would be nice to have, pales in comparison to the fact that we have no real raid utility.

 

We are viable, but you can't say anything more than that. Viable does not cut it in end-game PvE, which is why some of the top Juggernauts have switched mains - Loufucai and Ark to Marauder apparently, and I to Sniper.

 

I laid out the basic groundwork for what should be the PvE question, and I feel no motivation/obligation to flesh it out any further. Trying to prioritize Enraged Defense and a threat dump over the lack of reason to take a Jugg DPS on a raid (aside, again, for the player behind the toon) is just a horrible decision.

[UncleOst]

I have not posted within the past two weeks on the forums because I have had issues with work and other family stuff. I think its absurd for you to say that I bought votes when in fact people voted me for my skill and competence on a Juggernaut. That being said, I am very aware of everything being discussed on the forums and am trying to summarize and get other input from players in the game. As I've stated in previous threads for PvP, Dps Trees biggest problems are their cooldowns "Enraged Defense" being the most noticeable. The enraged defense in vengeance isn't even as good as one of the marauder cooldowns and for rage its absolute trash. I believe that the cooldowns should trump the dps issues and should be a main priority. When discussing PvE I think that the threat drop is a bigger issue than the proc based dps rotation, because dps juggernauts are around the third highest parser's. That being said I think a theres a way the dev's could fix the threat drop problem by attaching an aoe threat drop to intimidating roar since its not used very much in PvE Operations or Flashpoints. This idea was stated a while back in a previous thread and it seems to me to be the best solution to this problem. I am still working on what kind of question I think should be asked for the third part. If we could use this thread to post questions that want to be asked instead of solutions to problems it will provide me a better outline in which to post these questions. Within the next couple of days I will be posting my proposed questions and will be looking forward to educated responses from the community.

 

A "hey wussup bud" from me in red.

[Loufu]

First of all, I apologize to accuse you wrongly. It was merely a tactic to see if you would show up, but hey it worked.

 

Like the above 2 posters before me, it's true. Jugg dps in pve is not fine. As seen from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=668630, there is no Jugg/Guard dps at all. No guild in their right mind would bring Jugg when other classes, even when undergeared and having less experienced, would perform better.

 

A threat dump is certainly nice, but it's not the priority. Consistency with Vengeance spec would help a lot more for us.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Loufu

[lMarlfoxl]

I must admit that I don't PvE as much as some of the people on these forums. Which is why your input is greatly appreciated in helping me to form this question. I PvE on occasion and PvP every day. So I will continue to gather information on the PvE question and will have one formulated with a focus on Dps for the vengeance and rage trees (more importantly for Vengeance). And I would also say the consesus is that the vengeance build is too focused on RNG and needs a redesign/buff to ramapge and seething hatred for more continuous damage.

[Luckygunslinger]

You are out of touch if you think we are the "third highest parsers" in a field littered with Marauders, Operatives, and Snipers. We also fall behind Sorcs and Mercenaries, largely due to their ability to ignore a number of mechanics with range, but on the dummy parses as well. We are on about even ground with Powertechs, and ahead of Assassins in generic DPS. A viable threat dump, while it would be nice to have, pales in comparison to the fact that we have no real raid utility.

 

We are viable, but you can't say anything more than that. Viable does not cut it in end-game PvE, which is why some of the top Juggernauts have switched mains - Loufucai and Ark to Marauder apparently, and I to Sniper.

 

I laid out the basic groundwork for what should be the PvE question, and I feel no motivation/obligation to flesh it out any further. Trying to prioritize Enraged Defense and a threat dump over the lack of reason to take a Jugg DPS on a raid (aside, again, for the player behind the toon) is just a horrible decision.

 

 

Even though I am a Jugg DPS at heart, I just see no place for my DPS set and spec in our Nightmare runs, luckily however, my Juggernaut is also our tank.

One thing that always gets me is, people who aren't juggernauts look at us and they shrug and think that just because we work, then we don't need any buffs or heavy improvements. A Lack of Offensive Cooldowns, raid utility etc. doesn't matter to them because, they have it. I talked to a guildy last night, he asked me "Okay? What classes have a offensive cooldown?" That conversation proceeded with a list of every advanced class having one, except of course, us. Jugg DPS is.... well, broken is a very strong word, but it isn't working to a point where it's considered a good option to bring along on Nightmare content.

 

Bringing a Jugg DPS on a raid is like driving a car with 4 spare tires. Sure it can get you from point A to point B. But, the ride is painfully unpredictable. You may have the ride of your life, no issues or problems, arrive at the garage and get your new tires or all four of them will blow out and you're screwed. Jugg DPS is so unpredictable on top of the lack of means to have some identity in a raid that we're just well, a spare tire. If you have nothing better, grab a Jugg. Now, I'm not saying regardless of who you are Jugg DPS is going to suck, that's not right. Many of you here are amazing Juggernaut DPS, but in comparison, we just can't catch up to those in many other fights and that's what hurts. Knowing the class itself won't match a Sniper or a Merc or an Operative when Enrages and burning is a painful requirement in Nightmare, if the DPS leak boils down to the Jugg every time, then, there's not much else we can do.

 

I honestly agree with you 100%. Yes, I can see the issue with Enraged Defense crippling our rotation but, guys, lets face it, the current state of Vengeance is so bad, crippling it doesn't really even matter anymore. The proc is what is killing us. Sure the cost for Enraged Defense hurts and if they fix it, then what? We have more rage to spend on a broken proc and that's it. Aggro dumps won't make us viable for NiM. Sure it's an issue, but fixing it won't make us any better than we are now. And if you're thinking I'm saying it's not an issue, I'm not. It's just not the biggest one we have right now.

 

And just in case you missed it in Enalis' post, Offensive Cooldowns are as follows:

 

Merc: Thermal Sensor Override, Power Surge

Assassin: Over Charge Saber, Recklessness

Marauder: Bloodthrist, Berserk, Frenzy

Sniper: Target Acquired, Sniper Volley, Laze Target

Powertech: Explosive Fuel, Thermal Sensor Override

Sorcerer: Recklessness, Polarity Shift.

Operative: Stim Boost and if you're really picky, their stealth out coupled with Hidden Strike.

Juggernaut: <Insert Offensive Cooldown here>

Edited August 16, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[UncleOst]

...guys. Imagine the day vengeance jugs parse higher than marauders.

 

 

*crickets*

 

 

 

I don't know how many times I've posted in the last couple weeks. I've compiled excellent suggestions(which evolved quite nicely), and have coordinated most of the trenchwork. Perhaps some people don't like my prose or refuse to read it lol.

 

The point is, we can not keep asking for more dps more dps. Instead we can ask for more reliance and protection from rng. All this talk for offensive cooldowns, alacrity boosts, I'll warrant will bring disappointment with the response. I say we stick to enraged defense, ask to examine the vengeance tree, And consider a realistic utility. IF we received enhanced "jug specific" debuff capabilities, this would assist the group alot, and would not threaten the developers to rewrite the game. Let's not get carried away.

[Luckygunslinger]

...guys. Imagine the day vengeance jugs parse higher than marauders.

 

 

*crickets*

 

 

 

I don't know how many times I've posted in the last couple weeks. I've compiled excellent suggestions(which evolved quite nicely), and have coordinated most of the trenchwork. Perhaps some people don't like my prose or refuse to read it lol.

 

The point is, we can not keep asking for more dps more dps. Instead we can ask for more reliance and protection from rng. All this talk for offensive cooldowns, alacrity boosts, I'll warrant will bring disappointment with the response. I say we stick to enraged defense, ask to examine the vengeance tree, And consider a realistic utility. IF we received enhanced "jug specific" debuff capabilities, this would assist the group alot, and would not threaten the developers to rewrite the game. Let's not get carried away.

 

Personally, I'm not asking for anything new. I just want rampage fixed, that's all really.

[ssfish]

...guys. Imagine the day vengeance jugs parse higher than marauders.

 

 

*crickets*

 

 

Sadly, I already out-parse a good percentage of Marauders out there. The problem is, even as bad as I am on Sniper/Marauder, I parse above the Jugg with those.

[UncleOst]

Sadly, I already out-parse a good percentage of Marauders out there. The problem is, even as bad as I am on Sniper/Marauder, I parse above the Jugg with those.

 

Not to discredit your claim, but at face value your statement is highly subjective. There could have been many instances of poor performance from teammates, afk's, etc. That said, I'm sure you're a remarkable player.

 

The real problem in this scenario would be "why bring a marauder when jugs do more damage". Once again, we're not talking about a gift bestowed upon you from the RNG gods in one raid. You're referring to your personal skills coupled with really good gear. There is no other solution.

 

P.s.

Why did they remove the crit chance from vicious throw, yet allow it to proc above 30%?

 

In pvp a non crit vicious throw, hits like vicious slash..../meh. With the penalties to crit, we all suffer within vengeance game play. I eagerly await the developer's responses to these concerns.

[Luckygunslinger]

Not to discredit your claim, but at face value your statement is highly subjective. There could have been many instances of poor performance from teammates, afk's, etc. That said, I'm sure you're a remarkable player.

 

The real problem in this scenario would be "why bring a marauder when jugs do more damage". Once again, we're not talking about a gift bestowed upon you from the RNG gods in one raid. You're referring to your personal skills coupled with really good gear. There is no other solution.

 

P.s.

Why did they remove the crit chance from vicious throw, yet allow it to proc above 30%?

 

In pvp a non crit vicious throw, hits like vicious slash..../meh. With the penalties to crit, we all suffer within vengeance game play. I eagerly await the developer's responses to these concerns.

 

 

PVE Vengeance takes the 7.5% crit chance to Vicious Throw from Rage, when it does crit, it's amazing, but, it's not often enough to fix our issues. No idea why they did what they did, but in the long run, it's done more harm than good.

 

Vengeance 4/36/6

Edited August 16, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[ssfish]

Not to discredit your claim, but at face value your statement is highly subjective. There could have been many instances of poor performance from teammates, afk's, etc. That said, I'm sure you're a remarkable player.

 

The real problem in this scenario would be "why bring a marauder when jugs do more damage". Once again, we're not talking about a gift bestowed upon you from the RNG gods in one raid. You're referring to your personal skills coupled with really good gear. There is no other solution.

 

P.s.

Why did they remove the crit chance from vicious throw, yet allow it to proc above 30%?

 

In pvp a non crit vicious throw, hits like vicious slash..../meh. With the penalties to crit, we all suffer within vengeance game play. I eagerly await the developer's responses to these concerns.

 

There is nothing subjective about facts.

Titan 6:

Juggernauts

Marauders

Thrasher:

Juggernauts

Marauder

 

My parses, which are all 2+ months old and not very impressive any more (I'm not even top 5 for 16m Juggs anymore), would still be in the top 30 for Marauders (on all SV fights); which would qualify as better than "a good percentage." So not to try to discredit your retort, but at face value your statement is highly pointless.

 

The point I was getting at is that there is a very basic problem with our class when I can switch to a class that I've never played before, and with the absolute bare-minimum of effort, out perform the class that I worked on perfecting for the last 5 months. I am mediocre at best on Sniper, but I still bring more to any raid on the Sniper than my Juggernaut does. A change to Enraged Defense won't change that. A viable threat dump would do as much as nothing to change that. And the proposal to change how Rampage works will, if not done perfectly, destroy what is so enjoyable about playing this class. Besides, the proposal that I saw would just make us more consistently hit the same numbers that we already hit, while eliminating the chance of having a good burst window.

 

If we're that dead-set on making drastic changes to Vengeance, then I go back to a tongue-in-cheek proposal that I made elsewhere: Up the bleed damage on Impale and Scream and give us a weakening blast/deathfield type debuff to apply and make it a full on bleed spec.

 

As far as the auto-crit V.Throw, they changed that entire mechanic, and if they were to give us that back, then you would see it no longer build a stack for Scream, and with the rotation works presently, you would be giving up every other auto-crit Scream for a crit V.Throw, which would result in an average ~65% crit rate on Scream, assuming 30% Force Crit chance.

 

Though with the 20 second internal on V.Throw, you can probably get half of those non-auto Screams with 1 stack, so that would put you up to a ~78% crit rate on Scream coupled with a 100% crit rate on V.Throw. Now, that's really quick napkin math, and it is subject to inaccuracies due to the exact timeline of cooldowns, but I would still put Scream crit at somewhere between 60-80% to gain 100% crit on V.Throw. Even if I'm overestimating by 10% on the Scream crit rate, that is a very sizable damage increase, and quite likely over the top.

[UncleOst]

There is nothing subjective about facts.

Titan 6:

Juggernauts

Marauders

Thrasher:

Juggernauts

Marauder

 

My parses, which are all 2+ months old and not very impressive any more (I'm not even top 5 for 16m Juggs anymore), would still be in the top 30 for Marauders (on all SV fights); which would qualify as better than "a good percentage." So not to try to discredit your retort, but at face value your statement is highly pointless.

 

The point I was getting at is that there is a very basic problem with our class when I can switch to a class that I've never played before, and with the absolute bare-minimum of effort, out perform the class that I worked on perfecting for the last 5 months. I am mediocre at best on Sniper, but I still bring more to any raid on the Sniper than my Juggernaut does. A change to Enraged Defense won't change that. A viable threat dump would do as much as nothing to change that. And the proposal to change how Rampage works will, if not done perfectly, destroy what is so enjoyable about playing this class. Besides, the proposal that I saw would just make us more consistently hit the same numbers that we already hit, while eliminating the chance of having a good burst window.

 

If we're that dead-set on making drastic changes to Vengeance, then I go back to a tongue-in-cheek proposal that I made elsewhere: Up the bleed damage on Impale and Scream and give us a weakening blast/deathfield type debuff to apply and make it a full on bleed spec.

 

As far as the auto-crit V.Throw, they changed that entire mechanic, and if they were to give us that back, then you would see it no longer build a stack for Scream, and with the rotation works presently, you would be giving up every other auto-crit Scream for a crit V.Throw, which would result in an average ~65% crit rate on Scream, assuming 30% Force Crit chance.

 

Though with the 20 second internal on V.Throw, you can probably get half of those non-auto Screams with 1 stack, so that would put you up to a ~78% crit rate on Scream coupled with a 100% crit rate on V.Throw. Now, that's really quick napkin math, and it is subject to inaccuracies due to the exact timeline of cooldowns, but I would still put Scream crit at somewhere between 60-80% to gain 100% crit on V.Throw. Even if I'm overestimating by 10% on the Scream crit rate, that is a very sizable damage increase, and quite likely over the top.

 

 

hehe. It wasn't a retort, nor was it an attempt to pull parses out of your arse. You could have included numbers with your original statement.

 

I actually liked your suggestion of shifting the emphasis of vengeance bleeds. Currently they are considered a *mild* threat when all stacked during a force choke. The rest of the time, in pvp, your opponents don't even know they're there.

[ssfish]

hehe. It wasn't a retort, nor was it an attempt to pull parses out of your arse. You could have included numbers with your original statement.

 

I actually liked your suggestion of shifting the emphasis of vengeance bleeds. Currently they are considered a *mild* threat when all stacked during a force choke. The rest of the time, in pvp, your opponents don't even know they're there.

 

But, I enjoy a good back-and-forth. And as much as I was joking, I also like the idea of a full out bleed/DoT spec, it would require some other changes, but I think something as simple as leaving Ravage at 30 seconds would help balance it out.

[ArenCordial]

But, I enjoy a good back-and-forth. And as much as I was joking, I also like the idea of a full out bleed/DoT spec, it would require some other changes, but I think something as simple as leaving Ravage at 30 seconds would help balance it out.

 

The unfortunate part would be it would remove any burst we have for PvP. It would probably stabilize our dps PvE-wise though with a couple of changes.