HELP JUGG Tanks are under attack!!!

[kennethdale]

Here are my biggest issues with the whole "Shadow/Assassins are horrible now and Guardian/Juggernauts are too OP. Oh and Vanguards are crap too!" Argument:

 

1) The only time when Assassin/Shadow spikiness becomes an issue is in NiM content. Even then, it is not a guaranteed death. There is simply a chance that IF the tank isn't healed properly and IF they get two to three large hits in a row and IF the player is not using their CDs and IF the hits are not mitigated only then does the tank die. It is not a 'one-shot' and it is purely down to the way in which the bosses hits are split up. It was for this reason that Huge Grenade was changed for NiM to be many hits as opposed to one. In spite of this possible issue, all of the NiM content has been cleared with Assassin/Shadow tanks. Not can be, not might be. Has. The argument Kitru and others use for this is that the guilds that kept their Assassin/Shadow tanks did it because of the player not the class, but isn't that the same reason that guilds used Guardian/Juggernaut tanks pre-2.0? Isn't that the main reason every person in a raid should be brought? Because of the player not the class? I think so.

 

2) In WoW I was a healer in a top US guild. I am very adept at identifying how my tanks are taking damage. I can EASILY tell the difference based on how a tank is taking damage whether they are a Guardian/Juggernaut, Powertech/Vanguard, or a Shadow/Assassin. Is it closer than pre-2.0? Maybe, sure, I'll give you that its a bit closer but a 72 geared Juggernaut/Guardian is still noticeably spikier than a equally geared Vanguard/Powertech. I haven't healed a full 75 tank of any class, so I can't speak to that. I don't know of anyone actually who is full 75. My favorite tanks to heal are Vanguard/Powertech simply because it is so easy to predict how they are going to take damage. I get that there are models and math and a bunch of other stuff that says that they are oh-so-close, but my personal experience has been to the contrary of that math. I can tell you why as well: All of the math out there predicts what might happen, experience tells you what has. End of story.

 

3) So much is made of how over-powered Saber Reflect is and how it is just the best ability in the game. The 'fixes' range from capping the out-going damage to increasing the cooldown but none of them fix the inherent issue: Juggernaut/Guardians cannot generate area of effect aggro in any other way. Sure we can AoE taunt, but so can every other class and it is a temporary fix that lasts only as long as the duration of the taunt. Every other tank can easily generate threat on mobs not in their melee range but Juggernauts, outside of Saber Reflect, cannot. Is that balanced?

 

4) Finally the argument for Powertech/Vanguard tanks needing another cooldown is an interesting one. I've read the threads on the forums and they seem to posit that it is absolutely necessary that Powertech/Vanguards have another cooldown yet every Powertech/Vanguard tank I have actually talked to seems to feel that as a tanking class they are in a good place. Again, I tend to err on the side of people who I have actually healed, tanked with, and dpsed with as opposed to nameless, faceless people who are crying out for something that I can't honestly see a need for.

 

Those are my issues. If you think they are wrong, then do not tell me that the math says this or says that tell me what empirical evidence supports your opinion. I believe THEORY-crafting up until I see it contradicted in practice. Now all that said here is what I believe should be changed:

 

1) Force Shroud needs to be fixed. You can't have a tooltip that says one thing and then have it work differently from that without a reasonable explanation [EG: Honor Among Thieves talent in Subtlety for Rogues in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King was intentionally broken in order to bring them into a better balance]. This skill should never have been broken and it should be restored to removal of any removable hostile effects and 100% resistance to force and tech attacks.

 

2) Assassin/Shadow tanks need to have an armor buff talent re-introduced to bring their base damage reduction back into line with other tanks.

 

3) Kolto Overload (can't remember the Pub name) needs to be re-worked again to make it actually useful in terms of reacting to burst damage as opposed to a minimal heal-over-time that a) gets wasted if not used and b) does not actually help healers bring a Powertech/Vanguard tank's health back into a manageable range.

 

That is what I think should happen. I don't think Guadian/Juggernauts should be changed at all.

[TridusSWTOR]

How can you type this with a straight face? Jugg had threat issues noone denys that. But to say that it is the same issue as shadows dropping dead due to Rng, is just plan wrong. All a good jug had to say was "hey derps! Give me 2-3 seconds before you go all out" bam problem solved.i know this cause are guild used a guardian to MT everything, probably only thing that didn't get clears was Dreadtooth 10 stacks. Im not trying to be little your past threat issues they were real. But hardly any reason to not take a guardian tank.

 

More of my thoughts

 

That's where the blinders need to come off with you.

 

Assassins could tank just as well as juggs pre 2.0.

 

So why bring in a tank that people have to wait for, when in instead you can get a higher DPS tank, no wait time, better AOE thread, and better single target threat....and lower CD's on DC's by a mile.

 

There was no reason to bring a jugg over an assassin pre 2.0- If you believe otherwise, then you are lying to yourself and everyone else. That's like me saying "Well guilds are clearing current content with assassin tanks, therefore everything is fine."

 

But we both know everything is NOT fine now, isn't it? It works both ways.

[Gnimish]

That's where the blinders need to come off with you.

 

Assassins could tank just as well as juggs pre 2.0.

 

So why bring in a tank that people have to wait for, when in instead you can get a higher DPS tank, no wait time, better AOE thread, and better single target threat....and lower CD's on DC's by a mile.

 

There was no reason to bring a jugg over an assassin pre 2.0- If you believe otherwise, then you are lying to yourself and everyone else. That's like me saying "Well guilds are clearing current content with assassin tanks, therefore everything is fine."

 

But we both know everything is NOT fine now, isn't it? It works both ways.

 

Sorry if i wasn't clear i did not mean to say that assassins couldnt tank as well as juggs pre 2.0, i was just saying my guild used a guardian MT. Assassins were fine with all content pre 2.0 i only meant that for whatever reason my guild prefered guardians.

[wetslampigduex]

Nice move reporting me and getting all my posts removed BTW. Sorry I hurt your feelings little buddy... not really

[TridusSWTOR]

Sorry if i wasn't clear i did not mean to say that assassins couldnt tank as well as juggs pre 2.0, i was just saying my guild used a guardian MT. Assassins were fine with all content pre 2.0 i only meant that for whatever reason my guild prefered guardians.

 

That's their right to do so, even guilds now bring assassin tanks on their raids. Nothing wrong with it.

 

If you wanted to get the most advantages out of your tank in pre 2.0, you would bring double Assassin. Post-2.0, you would bring Double Juggernaut or Juggernaut/PT. It's just the way things are now, both versions had something broken and shouldn't be ignored.

 

Like I said though my main issue is this - How does nerfing Juggernauts help shadows? If we are all brought to what shadows are now, well I'm sure most healers would be pretty pissed off.

[Gnimish]

 

Like I said though my main issue is this - How does nerfing Juggernauts help shadows? If we are all brought to what shadows are now, well I'm sure most healers would be pretty pissed off.

 

I think the need for nerfs on Juggs is just to bring them in line. Can you imagine if they brought Shadows up to guardians status, a Shadow with 50% + DR is just not good for anybody. Would be swatted with nerf bat again. They need a small buff 3-5% dr, and they would be fine, honestly i just started tanking with my vanguard, but i cant say they NEED a f/t cheese, other than they are the only ones without one now.

 

In straight tank survivabilty where does a Guardian fall behind the other tanks? I think they need their passive mitigation brought down and their mean mitigation brought up. Not down to shadow status but definitly more of a gap between guardians and vanguards. But honestly with Biowares tweaks i do not think i would push for this, noone wants a broken tank class

[kennethdale]

I think the need for nerfs on Juggs is just to bring them in line. Can you imagine if they brought Shadows up to guardians status, a Shadow with 50% + DR is just not good for anybody. Would be swatted with nerf bat again. They need a small buff 3-5% dr, and they would be fine, honestly i just started tanking with my vanguard, but i cant say they NEED a f/t cheese, other than they are the only ones without one now.

 

In straight tank survivabilty where does a Guardian fall behind the other tanks? I think they need their passive mitigation brought down and their mean mitigation brought up. Not down to shadow status but definitly more of a gap between guardians and vanguards. But honestly with Biowares tweaks i do not think i would push for this, noone wants a broken tank class

 

Are you joking? Where do Juggernauts fall behind? IN TANKING RANGED MOBS. And don't mention Saber Reflect because it is a 45 second CD (same as Shroud) and it is the ONLY way we can tank ranged mobs. Every 45 seconds for 3 seconds we can tank ranged mobs. That is SO balanced. Or how about that Shadow tanks STILL out-damage Juggs. Or that PTs are STILL less spiky. Go ahead and quote theories and formulae that say this or that when I have SEEN all of this to be true. All of these things affect Juggernaut tanks in EVERY PULL. Not just trash, not just bosses, not just FPs, not just SM Ops, HM Ops, or NiM Ops. The ONLY place that Assassins experience any issues at all are in a NiM IF a boss hits two-three times in a row IF the Assassin is not at a reasonable level of health IF the Assassin is not already using a CD IF none of the attacks are mitigated and IF the attacks are then followed by another medium hit and only THEN will the Assassin die. Period. That is the end of the situation.

 

A skilled Assassin should know WHEN these spikes are likely to happen and should have skilled healers who are expecting these spikes so that the Assassin can have CDs ready and the healers can heal appropriately. Here is a great example of the opposite: Juggs tanking Xeno get hit like TRUCKS whereas Assassins can absolutely cheese it in several ways. Thats pretty damn unbalanced. And guess what? The whole "Waaaaah we're so broken" argument is COMPLETELY invalidated by the fact that every good player in this game will tell you "bring the player not the class" and that guilds that have done that and kept their Assassin tanks HAVE DOWNED THE CONTENT THAT SUPPOSEDLY ONE-SHOTS THEM. Not to mention the fact that this "issue" affects less than 1% of the population of all of SW:tOR. Can you even begin to understand how minuscule that is? Why would Bioware ever drop all other development to fix that issue? Or even drop ANY other development. Another pro tip: Professional software developers have chimed in and stated that expecting BioWare to react to such a tiny issue in such a comparably small amount of time is utterly ridiculous.

 

You should *really* stop believing everything other people tell you and instead do your own research because spouting what Kitru and other claim just makes you sound like an brain-washed idiot.

[Gnimish]

Are you joking? Where do Juggernauts fall behind? IN TANKING RANGED MOBS. And don't mention Saber Reflect because it is a 45 second CD (same as Shroud) and it is the ONLY way we can tank ranged mobs. Every 45 seconds for 3 seconds we can tank ranged mobs. That is SO balanced. Or how about that Shadow tanks STILL out-damage Juggs. Or that PTs are STILL less spiky. Go ahead and quote theories and formulae that say this or that when I have SEEN all of this to be true. All of these things affect Juggernaut tanks in EVERY PULL. Not just trash, not just bosses, not just FPs, not just SM Ops, HM Ops, or NiM Ops. The ONLY place that Assassins experience any issues at all are in a NiM IF a boss hits two-three times in a row IF the Assassin is not at a reasonable level of health IF the Assassin is not already using a CD IF none of the attacks are mitigated and IF the attacks are then followed by another medium hit and only THEN will the Assassin die. Period. That is the end of the situation.

 

A skilled Assassin should know WHEN these spikes are likely to happen and should have skilled healers who are expecting these spikes so that the Assassin can have CDs ready and the healers can heal appropriately. Here is a great example of the opposite: Juggs tanking Xeno get hit like TRUCKS whereas Assassins can absolutely cheese it in several ways. Thats pretty damn unbalanced. And guess what? The whole "Waaaaah we're so broken" argument is COMPLETELY invalidated by the fact that every good player in this game will tell you "bring the player not the class" and that guilds that have done that and kept their Assassin tanks HAVE DOWNED THE CONTENT THAT SUPPOSEDLY ONE-SHOTS THEM. Not to mention the fact that this "issue" affects less than 1% of the population of all of SW:tOR. Can you even begin to understand how minuscule that is? Why would Bioware ever drop all other development to fix that issue? Or even drop ANY other development. Another pro tip: Professional software developers have chimed in and stated that expecting BioWare to react to such a tiny issue in such a comparably small amount of time is utterly ridiculous.

 

You should *really* stop believing everything other people tell you and instead do your own research because spouting what Kitru and other claim just makes you sound like an brain-washed idiot.

 

Have you tanked Xeno? Cause you can just pop saber reflect on it now. Or use guardian leap to get out of the way same as shadow with reilience or phase walk. Only one that gets screwed there is vanguards. But your right im wrong, your smart im stupid. Theres no way i have any experience at all, good luck to you

[WooliestWorm]

This whole post is just ignorant. And rude. Craptastic skills? What do you consider saber reflect? I love that you guys got saber reflect for aoe threat. You needed it. But why does a guardian need a cheese skill? And nowthey are changing attacks to where it only works for saber reflect and not resiliance? Whos gonna get hit more by huge grenade a guardian or shadow? A shadow yet guardians are able to take no damage from it. I always figured the only reason shadows got resiliance was to dodge attacks that had a high chance of one shotting shadows? Maybe i was wrong. But i do not see the need for a guardian to be able to cheese mechanics. At most they might get hit for 60% of their health.

 

My thoughts

 

Seeing as grenades are generally tech aoe damage it' seems like the shadow is the class more likely to be able to be able to negate the damage not guardians...

[kennethdale]

Have you tanked Xeno? Cause you can just pop saber reflect on it now. Or use guardian leap to get out of the way same as shadow with reilience or phase walk. Only one that gets screwed there is vanguards. But your right im wrong, your smart im stupid. Theres no way i have any experience at all, good luck to you

 

Thanks for admitting that. And I have tanked it on SM and HM multiple times. Healed both on a merc and a sorc multiple times too. Intercept requires coordination with another player on top of damage taken during the jump (approximately 2 seconds) and while actually getting around the corner. SR gives 3 seconds of immunity, great. After that a jugg needs to be spammed with extreme healing. A sin can phase walk which cancels the cast immediately or just cloak taunt which cancels the cast immediately. Powertechs have it easy too: they can begin running while still tanking and simply pop out of LoS to cancel the cast without taking any damage. Juggs cannot generate ranged threat so they have to stay and eat at least a little of it and even then intercepting means they can't generate threat for a good 8-9 seconds which is more than enough for a good dps to pull threat and start a wipe chain. No a Jugg HAS to eat it. Its good that you already admitted you were wrong otherwise it would have been funny how wrong you still were.

[Gnimish]

Thanks for admitting that. And I have tanked it on SM and HM multiple times. Healed both on a merc and a sorc multiple times too. Intercept requires coordination with another player on top of damage taken during the jump (approximately 2 seconds) and while actually getting around the corner. SR gives 3 seconds of immunity, great. After that a jugg needs to be spammed with extreme healing. A sin can phase walk which cancels the cast immediately or just cloak taunt which cancels the cast immediately. Powertechs have it easy too: they can begin running while still tanking and simply pop out of LoS to cancel the cast without taking any damage. Juggs cannot generate ranged threat so they have to stay and eat at least a little of it and even then intercepting means they can't generate threat for a good 8-9 seconds which is more than enough for a good dps to pull threat and start a wipe chain. No a Jugg HAS to eat it. Its good that you already admitted you were wrong otherwise it would have been funny how wrong you still were.

 

Why are you needing to generate threat? Its a tank swap. SR builds threat for that 3seconds you los and other tank taunts. No reason to eat it

[kennethdale]

Why are you needing to generate threat? Its a tank swap. SR builds threat for that 3seconds you los and other tank taunts. No reason to eat it

 

1) Again, you claim equality when only a Juggernaut need a tank swap since both other tanks can LoS without taking a single hit. I've healed it on HM with both a PT and a Sin MT throughout the encounter without every tank swapping. Its just not possible for a Jugg.

 

2) As stated I have actually healed a Juggernaut through this, its not fun but its possible. What you are implying would require absolute perfect timing on the part of the Jugg, perfect placement on the part of the person being intercepted, and even then it is longer than the 3 seconds of Saber Reflect in which case the Juggernaut severely risks LoSing the healers. Again, this is not something either of the other tanks have to worry about even slighty.

 

3) I absolutely LOVE that you started out claiming that "only PTs would have to eat the damage" but then haven't responded at all to the fact that...they don't. Sure its a bit more tough than Cloak>Taunt or Phase Walk but its still a hell of a lot easier than Saber Reflect > Run a few steps because the range to the pillar is further than the max range of Intercept > Intercept (SR will wear off in the air and you will begin taking damage, here is where you begin praying that your healers were able to, while healing the rest of the raid get into a position to be able to remain in LoS of you throughout this) > Run a few more steps and get behind the pillar. Do you realize how long that actually takes? Thats why generally a Jugg just eats it (assuming the heals are half intelligent) because its just 10 times easier and requires 10 times less coordination.

 

4) Still no mention of the fact that outside of Saber Reflect, Juggs cannot generate ranged threat at all.

[Gnimish]

1) Again, you claim equality when only a Juggernaut need a tank swap since both other tanks can LoS without taking a single hit. I've healed it on HM with both a PT and a Sin MT throughout the encounter without every tank swapping. Its just not possible for a Jugg.

 

2) As stated I have actually healed a Juggernaut through this, its not fun but its possible. What you are implying would require absolute perfect timing on the part of the Jugg, perfect placement on the part of the person being intercepted, and even then it is longer than the 3 seconds of Saber Reflect in which case the Juggernaut severely risks LoSing the healers. Again, this is not something either of the other tanks have to worry about even slighty.

 

3) I absolutely LOVE that you started out claiming that "only PTs would have to eat the damage" but then haven't responded at all to the fact that...they don't. Sure its a bit more tough than Cloak>Taunt or Phase Walk but its still a hell of a lot easier than Saber Reflect > Run a few steps because the range to the pillar is further than the max range of Intercept > Intercept (SR will wear off in the air and you will begin taking damage, here is where you begin praying that your healers were able to, while healing the rest of the raid get into a position to be able to remain in LoS of you throughout this) > Run a few more steps and get behind the pillar. Do you realize how long that actually takes? Thats why generally a Jugg just eats it (assuming the heals are half intelligent) because its just 10 times easier and requires 10 times less coordination.

 

4) Still no mention of the fact that outside of Saber Reflect, Juggs cannot generate ranged threat at all.

 

Its a tank swap mechanic you get a damage increase debuff everyone should swap wether they can eat the damage or not, in at a lost why you wouldnt.

 

You are complaing that your melee tank isnt suited for ranged tanking. I honestly do not know how to help you with that. Maybe we should also be complaing that sentinals can't do sustained ranged damage also

[Gnimish]

1) Again, you claim equality when only a Juggernaut need a tank swap since both other tanks can LoS without taking a single hit. I've healed it on HM with both a PT and a Sin MT throughout the encounter without every tank swapping. Its just not possible for a Jugg.

 

2) As stated I have actually healed a Juggernaut through this, its not fun but its possible. What you are implying would require absolute perfect timing on the part of the Jugg, perfect placement on the part of the person being intercepted, and even then it is longer than the 3 seconds of Saber Reflect in which case the Juggernaut severely risks LoSing the healers. Again, this is not something either of the other tanks have to worry about even slighty.

 

3) I absolutely LOVE that you started out claiming that "only PTs would have to eat the damage" but then haven't responded at all to the fact that...they don't. Sure its a bit more tough than Cloak>Taunt or Phase Walk but its still a hell of a lot easier than Saber Reflect > Run a few steps because the range to the pillar is further than the max range of Intercept > Intercept (SR will wear off in the air and you will begin taking damage, here is where you begin praying that your healers were able to, while healing the rest of the raid get into a position to be able to remain in LoS of you throughout this) > Run a few more steps and get behind the pillar. Do you realize how long that actually takes? Thats why generally a Jugg just eats it (assuming the heals are half intelligent) because its just 10 times easier and requires 10 times less coordination.

 

4) Still no mention of the fact that outside of Saber Reflect, Juggs cannot generate ranged threat at all.

 

For vanguards if we had one tanking we just had a sage pull them out of the way. Never done it without a sage

[Gnimish]

Seeing as grenades are generally tech aoe damage it' seems like the shadow is the class more likely to be able to be able to negate the damage not guardians...

 

In Nim they changed it to direct weapon damage can no longer shroud it

[KeyboardNinja]

Apparently I'm going to jump into the fire on this one…

 

First off, let's be clear about one thing: assassin tanks are dying because of the way the content is balanced and the way the class is designed. And yes, I do nightmare content on my shadow. Yes, my raid brings me, and yes the weaknesses of my class have caused wipes. I have the logs to prove it.

 

Second, Leafy_Bug is overreacting. The whole "NERF Guardian Tanks" is a rather extremist battle cry born primarily of extreme frustration with how Bioware seems to have abandoned and ignored our class. I'm sure you're sympathetic to how that feels, given how terrible the threat issues for juggernauts were pre-2.0. Now imagine that instead of having terrible threat, you simply died. Threat is important but workable thanks to taunt fluffing. Death is non-negotiable. So, you maybe can understand how Leafy (and really the entire assassin tank community) feels a little bitter on this topic. Still, doesn't justify the extremist overreaction.

 

So to summarize the above, shadows/assassins are broken right now both on paper and in the game, and wipes are being caused that strictly stem from the content and class balance. Juggernauts don't need to be nerfed to the extent that some of the more frustrated members of the community are claiming. Oh, and Juggernauts *were* broken pre-2.0 w.r.t. threat, though it certainly wasn't enough breakage to make them non-viable for content.

 

Moving on, we get to some interesting theories of class balance. Here's the thought. Every tank should have some properties in which they are stronger than the others and other properties in which they are weaker. Tanks should also have different skill ceilings balanced such that the "faceroll" tank classes should be unable to achieve the level of excellence that the "high skill" tanks can, but this disparity should be sufficiently low that either class is welcomed by a serious raid group (i.e. the lower skill floor results should translate into better results from high raid awareness and attentiveness). All of the tanks should be balanced to a reasonable mean in terms of mitigation and survivability such that no class causes an above-average number of tank-related wipes on any content.

 

The way that these theoretical concerns were balanced pre-2.0 was in the following way. Powertechs had the lowest mean mitigation by a significant extent, but they also had by far the smoothest incoming damage profile. Thus, in a sense, they were the easiest tanks to heal, but they required the most healing over time. They also had the lowest skill floor as they had very little active mitigation. Assassins sat at the opposite end of the spectrum, with the highest mean mitigation, but also the spikiest incoming damage profile. This spikiness was tuned such that there were some fights where an assassin required incredibly high skill from both the player and the healer to remain viable (e.g. Nightmare Kephess final phase). Juggernauts were balanced in the middle, with a much smoother damage profile than assassins, but still spikier than powertechs. Juggernauts had some active mitigation, but it was mostly applied in rotation. Their mean mitigation was higher than a powertech, but lower than an assassin (for most fights).

 

The main area where things were unbalanced pre-2.0 was threat and damage. Assassins and Powertechs were fairly close in terms of the snap threat they could build, but assassins had much higher TPS over time than powertechs and significantly better damage. More importantly, juggernauts were *royally* screwed in the damage and threat department, both for snap threat and sustained. This was a huge, glaring problem in the class balance that Bioware introduced in 1.2 and didn't fix for a whole year. Redesigning the apex talent for tanks to have even more threat attached to it as well as a serious damage component (like the Assassin's Wither) was one of the best rebalancing decisions in the 2.0 update.

 

So, pre-2.0, the tanks were balanced such that the class with the lowest skill floor (powertechs) had the weakest results for mean mitigation, but the best results for ease of healing; while the class with the highest skill floor (assassins) had the best results for mean mitigation, but the worst results for ease of healing; and the remaining tank class fell exactly in the middle. Threat was not balanced and needed serious adjustment. Cooldowns were extremely well balanced, with assassins getting highly-specialized, powerful but short-duration cooldowns on short timers, juggernauts getting generalized, powerful and long-duration cooldowns on long timers, and powertechs getting…very little at all. :-)

 

Post-2.0, things are a mess, and this is where the whole "nerf" concept has come into the fore. Mean mitigation is much tighter between the three tanks, so there isn't much advantage to taking a "high skill" tank over a "low skill" tank. Powertechs are still the smoothest by a decent margin, and their mean mitigation is still the lowest but only by a small amount. Assassins are spikier than ever, and the content emphasizes this weakness in a way that it never did before. They have the best mean mitigation, but not by a lot, and a large component of their mitigation fails to scale with damage, so they aren't really any better than powertechs on extremely high damage fights (like Thrasher). Juggernauts have been buffed dramatically in terms of smoothness due to the 3% DR buff from the apex talent. They're now nearly as smooth as powertechs, with mean mitigation that rivals assassins on low-damage content. Juggernaut mean mitigation exceeds both powertechs and assassins on high damage content, while being nearly as smooth as a powertech and significantly smoother than an assassin.

 

Cooldown timers have been reduced by 16% for juggernauts such that their powerful and long-duration cooldowns are now on timers nearly as short as an assassin's. Additionally, they have received a new cooldown which is slightly more general than Force Shroud with the same duration and timer. Powertechs have received…nothing (effectively). Assassins have received a new cooldown on a moderate timer with a long duration and a general application, but this cooldown is 37.5% less powerful than the equivalent juggernaut cooldown which is only on a 25% longer timer. Thus, whereas an argument could be made pre-2.0 that juggernaut and assassin cooldowns were approximately balanced (one with short timers, short duration and highly specialized; the other with long timers, long durations and generalized), juggernaut cooldowns are now unambiguously superior. If you add Blade Turning into the mix (which is currently bugged, so I'm not counting it), things get even crazier in terms of balance.

 

Skill ceilings have been changed dramatically. Assassins have been given an additional active mitigation component, and their rotation has been made significantly more complex by an additional proc and a cost rebalance which emphasizes an old proc which was previously ignored. Powertechs have been granted a new active mitigation component, and thus have a slightly higher skill ceiling than before. Juggernauts have had a significant overhaul to their rotation, and now all of their ability CDs and procs align quite precisely (12 seconds ftw). The ideal rotation on a juggernaut is now largely a matter of just hitting the abilities as they come off CD and not Vicious Slashing yourself out of rage. Juggernauts have been given an additional active mitigation component, but this component (like the other two) is achieved simply by using abilities on CD. Thus, the assassin skill ceiling has been increased by a large amount, the powertech skill ceiling has been increased by a small amount, and the juggernaut skill ceiling has been decreased by a moderate-to-large amount (depending on perspective).

 

Threat has been rebalanced to within a tight hair. Currently, all three tanks are capable of doing the same damage and threat, both in terms of snap threat and sustain. This has been quite an achievement in terms of balance, and must not be disrupted by any changes going forward.

 

So in summary. Powertechs have had a slight increase to their skill ceiling paired with a moderate buff to their mean mitigation and a moderate nerf to their spikiness, but are largely unchanged. Assassins have had a large increase to their skill ceiling paired with a massive nerf to their spikiness and a slight buff to their cooldowns. Juggernauts have had a moderate decrease to their skill ceiling paired with a moderate buff to their mean mitigation, a moderate buff to their spikiness and a large buff to their cooldowns.

 

Do you now see why the theory crafting community considers juggernauts to be over-powered at the moment?

 

Only a few minor changes are required to bring things back into line. Contrary to what some people may claim, sweeping changes are not required. Ideally, powertechs would remain the smoothest tanks with the lowest mean mitigation, assassins would remain the spikiest tanks with the highest mean mitigation, and juggernauts would return to the middle ground between the two. In order to achieve this, juggernaut mean mitigation and smoothness needs a very slight nerf, while assassin spikiness needs a large buff and mean mitigation needs a very slight buff. The former is achieved by reducing the DR contribution from the apex talent, as this is the primary source of smoothness and extra mitigation. The latter can be achieved in several ways, but the most promising of which involves trading the 5% accuracy debuff for a 4% DR buff (keeps mean mitigation exactly the same) and/or a nerf to self-healing in trade for a buff to static DR. These are fairly small adjustments that would still keep assassins significantly spikier than the other two tanks (and thus harder to heal) but restore their balance position as the most efficient to heal over time. It would also resolve the current issue with juggernauts, who are both the most efficient and nearly the easiest to heal.

 

Cooldown utility should be balanced between the three, which requires three changes. First, powertechs need a serious defensive cooldown. It's not clear exactly what form this should take, but I'm tempted to say it should be a short-duration F/T 100% mitigation to match Shroud and Reflect from the other two tanking ACs. Second, assassins need a fix to Shroud so that it actually does what the tooltip says (bugfix). Third, juggernaut cooldown timers need to be re-lengthened to their original 3 minute delay (with the exception of Reflect, which should remain a short cooldown and could perhaps receive a slight buff). The lengthening of the cooldown timers restores the previous balance where juggernauts have the most general cooldowns with long durations but also long timers, while assassins have the most specific cooldowns with short durations and short timers. Overcharge Saber (the only general assassin cooldown) might be given a longer cooldown (perhaps nerfed to 2:30) to retain balance.

 

Threat is perfect and shouldn't be touched. Ranged threat is still a lingering problem for juggernauts, and might be improved somewhat by reducing the cooldown on Saber Reflect. I wouldn't consider this to be over-powered providing that Blade Turning is fixed and the other cooldowns are lengthened, and it would be a significant QoL buff for juggernauts pulling ranged trash packs more frequently than once every 45 seconds (note: Force Shroud's cooldown is, practically speaking, about 35 seconds as long as we are taking consistent kinetic/energy damage).

 

This sounds like a long list of nerfs to juggernaut tanks, and it sort of is, but look back at the list of areas in which juggernauts are simply manifestly superior to the other two tanks. They do need a nerf, though far, far less severe than what many people have proposed. These are all very small changes to juggernauts, carefully designed to bring things back into theoretical and practical alignment as a tank which is balanced against the other two.

 

All I want is for all three tanks to be viable. Right now, juggernauts completely roflstomp the other two tanks for serious content in every way except threat, where they are precisely balanced. Raids still take the other two tanks, but they do it with the knowledge that things could be a lot easier if the same player who is struggling to tank on an assassin just buckled down and rolled a juggernaut. I would really like it for all three tanks to have their distinct advantages. I want raids to mull the decision of which class composition they want, and I want them to be painfully aware of the utility that the other tanks bring which they had to forgo for their chosen composition.

 

Right now, that balance is simply not achieved. Assassins are dying left and right, powertechs have insufficient control over their emergency survivability, and juggernauts are curb-stomping anything with the word "tank" in it. This is why things need to be fixed.

[UncleOst]

Right now, that balance is simply not achieved. This is why things need to be fixed.

 

...t'was an eloquent post, if not a wise one.

 

You are wrong on many points. I'd also proceed catiously with your use of the word "skill" If I were you. Your post was nothing other than a long-winded "please nerf jugs thread".

 

Solution to your woes......bring a Jug tank to your next raid.

 

/yawn & carry on.

[KeyboardNinja]

You are wrong on many points. I'd also proceed catiously with your use of the word "skill" If I were you. Your post was nothing other than a long-winded "please nerf jugs thread".

 

Refute points, please? Just saying "you are wrong" serves no purpose and doesn't facilitate productive discussion. I listed a very long series of reasons why things are the way they are and why they aren't balanced and how they can be fixed, both mathematically and practically. You…simply claimed I'm incorrect and unwise.

 

If you read my post again, you'll see I'm not just calling for "zomg nerf teh juggz!", I actually have real productive suggestions for how tank class balance can be rectified across the board. These suggestions include buffs for assassins, nerfs for assassins, buffs for juggs and (yes) also nerfs for juggs. These suggestions were very carefully considered, discussed and theory crafted over quite a bit of time in the community. It's not like I'm just gazing at the game with juggernaut envy and trying to make your class terrible. I honestly and truly want every class to be balanced.

 

Solution to your woes......bring a Jug tank to your next raid.

 

So in other words, you have absolutely no interest in serious class balance and you think every raid group should bring at least one juggernaut? If that's your position, then there's really nothing I can do. I do care about class balance. I care about people being able to play the classes that they want to play and raid groups being able to select the utility and tank composition that they want to select. If you don't care about those things, then fine, but don't claim to be putting forth impartial refutations to the "nerf guardians" camp.

[TridusSWTOR]

Apparently I'm going to jump into the fire on this one…

 

First off, let's be clear about one thing: assassin tanks are dying because of the way the content is balanced and the way the class is designed. And yes, I do nightmare content on my shadow. Yes, my raid brings me, and yes the weaknesses of my class have caused wipes. I have the logs to prove it.

 

Second, Leafy_Bug is overreacting. The whole "NERF Guardian Tanks" is a rather extremist battle cry born primarily of extreme frustration with how Bioware seems to have abandoned and ignored our class. I'm sure you're sympathetic to how that feels, given how terrible the threat issues for juggernauts were pre-2.0. Now imagine that instead of having terrible threat, you simply died. Threat is important but workable thanks to taunt fluffing. Death is non-negotiable. So, you maybe can understand how Leafy (and really the entire assassin tank community) feels a little bitter on this topic. Still, doesn't justify the extremist overreaction. .

 

I stopped reading after that. Mostly because I heard it all before and it's all wrong.

 

First off, even when juggernaut tanks that were on your side, all they received was insults in return. So I don't have to "feel" anything toward you're hateful community. You are actually part of the problem, since you participated in such childish bickering.

 

Basically, I still have yet to hear how nerfing another class magically fixes another one. Once I see a clear cut reason, I will copy paste that reason and use it for merc healers to nerf sorc/op healing. Makes total sense, right?

 

Sorry but it's clear you and the majority of the ignorant shadow community rather resort to insults when things don't go your way.

 

Last bit here- I run NiM content as well, with assassin tanks, we are fine.

 

Come back when you aren't biased.

[TridusSWTOR]

If you read my post again, you'll see I'm not just calling for "zomg nerf teh juggz!", I actually have real productive suggestions for how tank class balance can be rectified across the board. These suggestions include buffs for assassins, nerfs for assassins, buffs for juggs and (yes) also nerfs for juggs. These suggestions were very carefully considered, discussed and theory crafted over quite a bit of time in the community. It's not like I'm just gazing at the game with juggernaut envy and trying to make your class terrible. I honestly and truly want every class to be balanced.

 

For the bolded part. That's nice.

 

Keep offering millions of suggestions, the difference between you and I? I know from history of buffs/nerfs to classes it comes in chunks and not bites.

 

This is where you and kitru need to actually wake up to how nerfs in this game actually work. This is why juggernauts are up in arms about any sign of nerfs because it's not going to be "fixing saber reflect", it's going to be a massacre.

 

A.K.A.- Merc healing 2.1(maybe that was the patch, you get the point.)

[Gnimish]

Well this thread looks like it will die into meaningless insults and nothing productive. So just to recap.

 

Yes most agree that vangaurds need a cd and shadows need spikiness fixed

 

No Juggs don't think they are OP and even if you are, you guys deserve it cause you had threat issues last year.

[UncleOst]

Refute points, please.

 

The fickle position for shadow/sins is none of our concern. The changes you present, while well written, are consumed with main tank/elite boss resolution. Balance in THIS sense, would totally misconstrue the roles vs. class abilities, in all other aspects of game, and henceforth cause irreparable damage.

 

...live with your sins(pun intended).

[KeyboardNinja]

I stopped reading after that. Mostly because I heard it all before and it's all wrong.

 

Glad you have an open mind. I can justify every point and every suggestion.

 

First off, even when juggernaut tanks that were on your side, all they received was insults in return. So I don't have to "feel" anything toward you're hateful community. You are actually part of the problem, since you participated in such childish bickering.

 

I haven't ever insulted anyone on these forums. If you felt insulted by me, I'm sorry, but that was never my intent.

 

Basically, I still have yet to hear how nerfing another class magically fixes another one. Once I see a clear cut reason, I will copy paste that reason and use it for merc healers to nerf sorc/op healing. Makes total sense, right?

 

You're simply misunderstanding the scope of the problem. Yes, assassins are broken, but that's far from the only issue in the tanking balance right now. Even fixing the assassin spikiness problem doesn't do anything to balance the tanking mean without massively over-buffing assassins, and no one wants that. Nerfing juggernauts does nothing to fix assassins. That's not the point. It fixes juggernauts.

 

I don't know how many times I can say this. Juggernauts are overpowered relative to both assassins and powertechs. You mentioned that you don't see how nerfing another class (juggernauts) magically fixes another (assassins). I can turn that around: how would buffing another class (assassins) magically fix another (juggernauts)? Both classes are broken right now, but in different ways.

 

Incidentally, if you had bothered to actually read my post, you would see that I suggested two distinct buffs to juggernaut tanks to address some lingering QoL and balance issues. In addition, my suggestions include at least one cooldown-related nerf for assassins and two separate rebalance-related nerfs to the way their mitigation works.

 

Sorry but it's clear you and the majority of the ignorant shadow community rather resort to insults when things don't go your way.

 

As I said, I haven't insulted anyone. My post was clear and dispassionate. Your post was insulting and clipped. I'm not sure how you could justify your belief that the "shadow community" is insulting and ignorant when faced with the evidence even just in this thread.

 

Last bit here- I run NiM content as well, with assassin tanks, we are fine.

 

Come back to me after your assassin has been one-shot for the third time (in the same pull) by Terminate. Or after they get spiked for three quarters of their maximum HP during Kel'sara's third phase.

 

Come back when you aren't biased.

 

Mathematics aren't biased. I can justify all of my points with hard math. Can you?

 

Keep offering millions of suggestions, the difference between you and I? I know from history of buffs/nerfs to classes it comes in chunks and not bites.

 

This is where you and kitru need to actually wake up to how nerfs in this game actually work. This is why juggernauts are up in arms about any sign of nerfs because it's not going to be "fixing saber reflect", it's going to be a massacre.

 

Neither of us want that. Least of all me. I would rather Juggs be left alone entirely than to be slaughtered in the way you seem to fear. However, Bioware is going to do what Bioware is going to do. My theory crafting and spinning balance suggestions isn't going to change this one iota (which is part of why I do a lot less theory crafting than previously).

 

A.K.A.- Merc healing 2.1(maybe that was the patch, you get the point.)

 

It was 1.2, and that's a really bad example because merc healing was unambiguously overpowered pre-1.2 and needed a serious nerf. The class design for merc healing post-1.2 was really really good, and only suffered from a few alacrity-related energy issues and weak raid healing. They were still viable in all content (faction first NiM EC on my server used a Commando healer). Post-2.0, very little has changed with merc healing, and yet they are currently considered to be one of (if not the) strongest PvE healer.

Edited August 13, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[TridusSWTOR]

Glad you have an open mind. I can justify every point and every suggestion.

 

Glad you seem to forget when you openly insults people. Must come naturally then, like most of the shadow community.

 

I haven't ever insulted anyone on these forums. If you felt insulted by me, I'm sorry, but that was never my intent.

 

The intent was clear, hence why there was no point in reading you're post. Usually if you treat people bad in the past, they kinda don't give you the benefit of the doubt anymore. That's adult 101.

 

You're simply misunderstanding the scope of the problem. Yes, assassins are broken, but that's far from the only issue in the tanking balance right now.

 

Actually you are misunderstanding the scope of the problem. Sorry but unlike you, I have seen what bioware does with nerfs and buffs to classes. You even admit yourself that Bioware doesn't know how to handle it, I will admit that isn't you're fault but that is why I truly believe you and maybe other shadows don't exactly know what you are asking for.

 

I don't know how many times I can say this. Juggernauts are overpowered relative to both assassins and powertechs. You mentioned that you don't see how nerfing another class (juggernauts) magically fixes another (assassins). I can turn that around: how would buffing another class (assassins) magically fix another (juggernauts)? Both classes are broken right now, but in different ways.

 

How can that turn around even work? I mean because guilds are choosing juggernauts as a viable option now, it's broken? I can see how you want to make small nerfs but you are living in a fantasy land if you think any amount of nerfs will be small.

 

Incidentally, if you had bothered to actually read my post, you would see that I suggested two distinct buffs to juggernaut tanks to address some lingering QoL and balance issues.

 

Like I said, if the shadow community only offers me insults and condescension, even when I try to support them. There is no point in giving any of them the benefit of the doubt and only furthermore proves their childish entitlement complex.

 

As I said, I haven't insulted anyone. My post was clear and dispassionate. Your post was insulting and clipped. I'm not sure how you could justify your belief that the "shadow community" is insulting and ignorant when faced with the evidence even just in this thread.

 

Like I said earlier, you said what you said. I guess calling me a liar works for you and now you are attacking me because I decided not to put a smile on my face toward people who insulted me before. You could of left this part out of you're post but you had to point the finger in a last ditch effort.

 

Come back to me after your assassin has been one-shot for the third time (in the same pull) by Terminate. Or after they get spiked for three quarters of their maximum HP during Kel'sara's third phase.

 

As far as NiM progression goes, we aren't that far yet. I love the "comeback" attitude though, I guess I'm not allowed to post anything until I cleared a boss, makes total sense.

 

and you said you weren't insulting....thanks for proving me right.

 

 

Mathematics aren't biased. I can justify all of my points with hard math. Can you?

 

Do current guilds progress through content with assassin tanks? If so, then why do you openly ignore in game experience? Another reason why it's impossible to have an adult discussion with you, you can only see it you're way. Kinda pathetic, really.

 

Neither of us want that. Least of all me.

 

That may be true, but it will happen.

 

It was 1.2, and that's a really bad example because merc healing was unambiguously overpowered pre-1.2 and needed a serious nerf. The class design for merc healing post-1.2 was really really good, and only suffered from a few alacrity-related energy issues and weak raid healing. They were still viable in all content (faction first NiM EC on my server used a Commando healer). Post-2.0, very little has changed with merc healing, and yet they are currently considered to be one of (if not the) strongest PvE healer.

 

 

I honestly don't know how you can say merc healers outshine operative healers currently. It's pretty much required to have an operative healer in a raid group because they offer so much. The recent changes made them better, but at 1.2, you saw the EXACT same treatment shadows are getting now. Raid groups didn't want them.

 

You want me to state another class? Assassin DPS, PT pryotech DPS- These two are a joke compared to snipers. PT Pyro was a beast in the patch before that and now they just aren't the best choice. Another problem you and a lot of "math only" posters(shadow community, again) is that you refuse to look at classes at a whole. Which is why I question if most of these people even raid.

 

Anyways, I'm leaving this game soon, so I won't have to deal with you and you won't have to deal with me. Doesn't mean I won't stop posting my thoughts though.

[Vaidinah]

KBN, I suggest next time you do BiS theory crafting for the tanks... you "forget" to provide the Jugg information....

 

Following the advice of people like KeyboardNinja and Kitru for Shadow/Assassins is part of why they and those who follow have so many issues surviving the NiM content. Other Shadow/Assassins who have posted and disagree with their approach seem to be doing better overall. Anyone trying to beat Nightmare content should be thinking for themselves and figuring out what works best for their team (and healers especially) as opposed to mindlessly following some numbers. Personally, I have no use for his numbers whatsoever and I am only interested in discussion involving why they picked them in the first place.