Shadows, we aren't looking too hot...

[ArchangelLBC]

Whilst I don't agree on the personal hits, this post is exactly in line with my thoughts concerning the nerf-buff argument.

 

Original post edited to remove some of the more uncalled for personal hits. My bad =)

[Altheran]

Nope. Not for killing, at least, but they do make better node-guards because of Stealth, Vanish, Force Shroud, Saps and all that nonsense. Operatives have stealth, vanish and sap too, but are they equal to Shadows when it comes to node-guarding?

 

Nope. Shadows can block blinds and sap with Force Shroud and they have Force wave and Whirling blow to unstealth enemy stealthers and they can effectively node-guard 60m away from the node due to Phase Walk.

 

Yes they equal shadows when it comes to node-guarding. Interrupting one player with a Shadow's sap is easy. Interrupting two players with a Shadow's sap is managable. Interrupting three players with Shadow's sap is a miracle considering the Sap cost as it cost half the ressource pool. Agent's sap is a fourth of the ressource pool and rengerate faster (25 energy to regen with a 6 pts/s rate against a 50 Force cost to regen with a 12.1/12.5 pts/s rate).

As a result, Agents can last longer without having to show themselves when players are multiple.

 

Force Wave and Whirling Blow ? Maybe Agents have "less" on-demand AoEs, but case when the Grenade and the sweeping shots aren't sufficient are extremely rare considerig they also have Orbital Strike. At the same time, if the number of cappers is not to high, Agents do not need to stay in the fray to interrupt.

 

Defending at 60m with Phase Walk ? That's just a warning sign saying attackers "beware of guarding Shadow"

 

What do Shadows have and Agents do not ? A slight chance to survive a stunlock attempt or a sudden focus from multiple stealthers who got you by surprise thanks to Resilience. Better chances in Tank Spec. That's all.

 

Both have advantages.

 

Jesus Christ, you guys sure are defensive. I want this class well, you'll find that I've done my share of complaining when 2.0 hit. But I'm not blind to the fact that even in its gimped state, Shadows are superb at objective play. Operatives are good too but I don't believe they are better. This could be fixed by nerfing something across the board... for instance, sap? Cap time 8s, sap duration 8s. You've one CC breaker. Force lift 8s, Flashbang 8s.

 

Because of how easy it is to ninja objectives in Warzones, stealthers are being pigeonholed into sitting on defense. Not a lot of players are thrilled about it, but that is where Shadows excel right now. For Huttball, Shadow tanks may not be as durable as Juggernaut tanks or Vanguard tanks, but they don't rely on the enemy to play like idiots in order to ease their way to the scoreline.

 

Phase Walk is ridiculously good for Huttball. No other class can warp back to the defense as fast as Shadows can, and no other class can counter being knocked down from the catwalks. You might say that Juggernauts and Marauders can, but if the person who knocked them down is clever, they'd have broken the LoS already, or jumped down themselves. And finally. no CD comes close to being as overpowered as Force Shroud is for Huttball.

 

I really wish that Saps can't be used against players so that stealth become a minor advantage when it comes to node guarding and attacking and that way Shadows and Operatives can be judged by their combat performance rather than this fluff. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of hearing that Shadows and Operatives deserve to not be as good as others because of their ability to ninja and defend objective without fighting.

 

Concerning Phase Walk in Huttball, it can be used as fast retreat yes, but it has to be planned. And because it can only be used with "premeditation", it can't really be used as a counter to a bump unless the opponent is stupid or didn't noticed. As soon as he noticed he should not waste his bump on him, and that's Phase Walk that will become wasted. This kind of use of Phase Walk is gamble at most, a gamble where you bet on the challenger's inability to make the good choice.

 

The only really cheesy thing that can be done in PvP with Resilience is avoiding interrupts to get node captures. Unless all of the node captures are shorter than 3 seconds (I believe they are but I'm not a PvPer so /shrug), anyone that's actually intelligent is going to be able to watch the Shadow and hit them *after* Resilience drops and they're no longer immune.

That doesn't even work. Even if you resist all the damage, you still get interrupted. And that's all for the better since in Voidstar, removing a bomb only need 3s. A tank Shadow would be quite sure to remove it, while ignoring an Orbital Strike or Plasma Probe.

[Majspuffen]

I think I'll back out of this Force Shroud argument before people start to believe I'm anti-shadow. Check my recent posts and you'll see I have pretty much done nothing but complain about the changes made to balance since 2.0 ;p ...

 

I guess I got a bit worked up because people keep pointing at Operatives saying that they have it better. Operatives do the same thing, they point at Shadows and say that they've got it better. I play both Operative and Shadow so I feel I know their strengths and weaknesses (at least for pvp). And for objective play I much prefer the Shadow, still. But I'm not going to write another wall of text about it.

 

One last disclaimer, in response to ArchangelLBC's post:

I didn't suggest to nerf shadows before buffing them, nor did I suggest nerfing only shadows. Let's pretend that SWTOR is a garden and the classes are plants! In order to keep a neat garden, you need to trim the plants! I'll leave it at that.

[Sideblaze]

I think the fact you do more damage and have a better resource system a good justification for why operatives get to be more mobile than you.

[DarthSpekulatius]

I think the fact you do more damage and have a better resource system a good justification for why operatives get to be more mobile than you.

 

you should differentiate between specs PVE & PVP, Balance certainly does not out damage operatives,

neither does infi after the Opener.

Edited August 8, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Leafy_Bug]

This thread is, sorry to say, not a breath of fresh air. We have been talking about Shadows being broken since the first nerfs and some said it is fine. Then more nerfs came and some said it is still fine. Some of us saw the changes on the PTS argued heavily against them, what happened? We got more nerfs because people who cannot see resilience asked for more nerfs. We have reached a point where we are wasting our time talking about the same things over and over.

 

 

I am sorry to say but this class is dead at the moment. In PVE it brings nothing to the table and in PVP it is mediocre in every aspect including node guarding. I have recently started to play my sawbones scoundrel for the fun of it and it has so much potential in guarding nodes it is unbelivable. My scoundrel is also cybertech so you can imagine the cc havoc when someone tries to cap.

 

 

In my opinion, there is no point going in circles with the same things over and over. We have nothing new to bring to the table until the class rep thing pans out or developers start making changes. Dozens of threads have been created, hundreds of pages written, there is nothing new to add.Shadows are broken, BioWare clearly does not care, move on.

 

 

 

I am done with the shadow and tanking forums until I see a change from the devs. This is what they wanted for us to shut up, they won, it seems to be their game at the end of the day, we are just here to give them money so they do what they want. Buff GUARDIAN TANKS!

 

 

My retiring raid. A bit laggy and was very annoyed that I won't be tanking with this anymore. My head wasn't into it at all. I will be doing this until my free time runs out, then I am out.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Ilysanth]

I'll be upfront, I don't have anything useful to add in terms of support numbers or suggestions on fixing the shadow. My DPS shadow is only level 38 and likely will never be used for anything but casual raiding.

 

BUT I have to admit to never having understood the hoopla going around about shadows being broken until recently. I have tanked (Guardian since 12/26/11) with a shadow for the last year and a half. He's competent and talented and we have never struggled through raids because of anything to do with him (admittedly no NiM TfB or S&V). I don't PVP at ALL but for the giggles we occasionally square off with each other in a duel (usually on Ord Mantell in front of the newbies just to put on a show ) .

 

He has beaten me every time. Handily.

 

Last night we were waiting for the rest of our group to assemble and he wanted to test out what his new Treek would do. So we dueled (Him/Treek and me/no companion) and I let his companion chew me up a bit before I burned it down. I was down to about 80% health at that point and we turned on each other to finish it out.

 

AND. I. BEAT. HIM.

 

He is in 3/4 72's and 1/4 69's. Balanced. Has at least 3-4k more health than me. I am in 1/4 72's and 3/4 69's also decently balanced. Roughly 34k health. I started out down health and finished with approx 3k left.

 

Sobering, IMO. Very very sobering. I don't support the wild cries of NERF THE GUARDIANS but I have to say that I now understand better what the Shadows are saying.

 

 

TL;DR

Sorry for doubting you Shadows. You need help and I hope you get it!

[kwestone]

This thread is, sorry to say, not a breath of fresh air. We have been talking about Shadows being broken since the first nerfs and some said it is fine. Then more nerfs came and some said it is still fine. Some of us saw the changes on the PTS argued heavily against them, what happened? We got more nerfs because people who cannot see resilience asked for more nerfs. We have reached a point where we are wasting our time talking about the same things over and over.

 

 

I am sorry to say but this class is dead at the moment. In PVE it brings nothing to the table and in PVP it is mediocre in every aspect including node guarding. I have recently started to play my sawbones scoundrel for the fun of it and it has so much potential in guarding nodes it is unbelivable. My scoundrel is also cybertech so you can imagine the cc havoc when someone tries to cap.

 

 

In my opinion, there is no point going in circles with the same things over and over. We have nothing new to bring to the table until the class rep thing pans out or developers start making changes. Dozens of threads have been created, hundreds of pages written, there is nothing new to add.Shadows are broken, BioWare clearly does not care, move on.

 

 

 

I am done with the shadow and tanking forums until I see a change from the devs. This is what they wanted for us to shut up, they won, it seems to be their game at the end of the day, we are just here to give them money so they do what they want. Buff GUARDIAN TANKS!

 

 

My retiring raid. A bit laggy and was very annoyed that I won't be tanking with this anymore. My head wasn't into it at all. I will be doing this until my free time runs out, then I am out.

 

Eh Leafy I can't blame you. I just read the Marauder/Sniper answers from the dev's and my heart sank. Their reply is basically "yep, it sucks, and don't expect a change any time soon".

 

Doesn't give one a lot of hope when it comes to our class. I wonder if I should just unsub right now rather than wait for disappointment in 2.4.

[Bilirubin]

Eh Leafy I can't blame you. I just read the Marauder/Sniper answers from the dev's and my heart sank. Their reply is basically "yep, it sucks, and don't expect a change any time soon".

 

Doesn't give one a lot of hope when it comes to our class. I wonder if I should just unsub right now rather than wait for disappointment in 2.4.

 

I didn't actually read it like that myself.

[RankorSSGS]

I didn't actually read it like that myself.

 

Please elaborate, because to me it seems like a load of "we don't actually care what you guys think, we are right, we are always right, and go suck a d!ck." Not hope inspiring at all.

[Bilirubin]

Please elaborate, because to me it seems like a load of "we don't actually care what you guys think, we are right, we are always right, and go suck a d!ck." Not hope inspiring at all.

 

I thought there was a lot of good explanation for why particular things were done the way they were, the give and take that is necessary to consider for various changes, a few acknowledgements of issues and realistic projections for when fixes might come down the pipeline. One outright "uh, dunno, that does seem kinda dumb" admission.

 

I am comfortable with the idea that things take time to implement fixes given their long list of fixes and new content to get all working together. I like hearing that considerations are complex, and that they are open to making them. I'm also fine with some answers being no, just as I am fine with people suffering from real or perceived issues preventing them from full enjoyment of the game to unsub until things are working as they want.

[Avicii]

I thought there was a lot of good explanation for why particular things were done the way they were, the give and take that is necessary to consider for various changes, a few acknowledgements of issues and realistic projections for when fixes might come down the pipeline. One outright "uh, dunno, that does seem kinda dumb" admission.

 

I am comfortable with the idea that things take time to implement fixes given their long list of fixes and new content to get all working together. I like hearing that considerations are complex, and that they are open to making them. I'm also fine with some answers being no, just as I am fine with people suffering from real or perceived issues preventing them from full enjoyment of the game to unsub until things are working as they want.

 

I agree with you. People obviously will choose to interpret the answers in a negative light however I thought the Sent/Mar questions and response was detailed well all things considered. They acknowledge issues explained their spec thought process between burst/substained and the idea they want all specs to have some AoE.

 

It appears some people think their rep is gonna say what they want changed and balanced they don't get it. I mean go look at the Mars thread about their concerns I can't imagine how op players would make their class if BW did what they wanted. (Not that us Sins are much better in some regards)

[MasterGladius]

Personally, I'm tired of begging. I mained a Shadow since day one. No other class really appeals to me.

 

Today, I unsubscribed. Forum chatter falls on deaf ears. For BW/EA, it is all about the money, so I cited Shadow problems for why I am unsubbing. Maybe if they have a couple hundred quitters saying they won't pay to play until shadows are fixed they'll see the light.

[Missandei]

Operatives are good too but I don't believe they are better. This could be fixed by nerfing something across the board... for instance, sap? Cap time 8s, sap duration 8s. You've one CC breaker. Force lift 8s, Flashbang 8s.

 

Force lift is a 2 second cast and work only on very dumb enemies.

 

Phase Walk is ridiculously good for Huttball. No other class can warp back to the defense as fast as Shadows can, and no other class can counter being knocked down from the catwalks.

 

lol.. You are funny.

 

First you are saying about utility and then talking about the Phase Walk.

Unlike ANY OTHER 51lvl ability you cant use PhaseWalk just anywhere anytime. You have to prepare its use first. So basically instead of doing the objectives you are forced to spend half of the time preparing the use of the ability that maybe wont shoot anyways.

More over - if you have misused your preparation and placed PhaseWalk in the wrong place (or went more than 60m from the spot) you screwed the ability.

 

The PhaseWalk is so broken that it is a miracle if you manage to use it succefully for your benefit more than once or twice in a WZ.. And now compare the frequency of usage of the other 51lvl abilities of the other AC....

 

PS.. Huttball.. Scoundrel/Slinger with the ball using their 51lvl abilities do not losing the ball.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Missandei

[DarthSpekulatius]

Please elaborate, because to me it seems like a load of "we don't actually care what you guys think, we are right, we are always right, and go suck a d!ck." Not hope inspiring at all.

 

what do you think would all non snipers/Gunslingers & Sents/Maras have done had they implemented the changes?

as I've read it: "we are aware of your concerns and they bother us as well but we are currently not able do fix all of them because you are overall in a very solid Spot."

 

and have you noticed they gave a positive on the Annihilation stacks being increased in Duration and maybe get its mechanic changed?

it won't increase their top DPS, only help with fights where you have to take a brake.

also between questions asked and answered there were only a few days the next deadline to ask the questions is in one week (plenty of time) so they might decide to speed things up.

I expect to get positive answers on the shadow side for the breach proccing shadow technique wasting one stack (has that been posted in the Bug Forums?)

as well as the Precision problems with Madness.

also he stated they will monitor the threads for follow up Questions

Edited August 9, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Missandei]

Shadows is a perfect class now for a casual players.

 

As a casual player you dont really have time to participate in Hard/NiM operations. And why would you even want them? It is timeconsuming and potentially exhausting experience that can bring frustration or irritation ( because of your faults or other ppl faults that cause wipes). So it is good that responsible group wont take you to neither Tank nor DPS the Hm/NiM ops.

 

PvP. It is not for you. Moreover - PvP is usually a very stressful. You want to lose faith in humanity? Solo join the WZ!

As a casual player you are coming home and turn on your computer to get some relaxation. PvP is definitely not the place to calm your nerves. You joined the WZ no matter what? You have stealth! stay at the distance in the stealth. Dont let anyone hurt you. And just watch how they kill each other.

 

So what is left?

To do Flashpoints! Shadows are fine for Flashpoints.

To do Dailies! Shadows are fine for Dailies.

To buy the stuff from Cartel Market! Shadows are excellent class for it!

To play with your appearance and excel your fashion designer skills! Shadows are perfect for it!

 

A lot of relaxing things to do for Casual players! Shadow is perfect relaxing class for a Casual Player!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Missandei

[Simmerr]

Shadows is a perfect class now for a casual players.

 

As a casual player you dont really have time to participate in Hard/NiM operations. And why would you even want them? It is timeconsuming and potentially exhausting experience that can bring frustration or irritation ( because of your faults or other ppl faults that cause wipes). So it is good that responsible group wont take you to neither Tank nor DPS the Hm/NiM ops.

 

PvP. It is not for you. Moreover - PvP is usually a very stressful. You want to lose faith in humanity? Solo join the WZ!

As a casual player you are coming home and turn on your computer to get some relaxation. PvP is definitely not the place to calm your nerves. You joined the WZ no matter what? You have stealth! stay at the distance in the stealth. Dont let anyone hurt you. And just watch how they kill each other.

 

So what is left?

To do Flashpoints! Shadows are fine for Flashpoints.

To do Dailies! Shadows are fine for Dailies.

To buy the stuff from Cartel Market! Shadows are excellent class for it!

To play with your appearance and excel your fashion designer skills! Shadows are perfect for it!

 

A lot of relaxing things to do for Casual players! Shadow is perfect relaxing class for a Casual Player!

 

Sadly, I agree with all of this

[quantez]

Even in our PvP niche with Infiltration, we're not even the outright best in comparison to Scrapper Scoundrels who have better survivability (thanks to better CDs)

 

Can you please enlighten me on this one?

[Majspuffen]

Force lift is a 2 second cast and work only on very dumb enemies.

 

Very easy to use in Voidstar and Ancient Hypergate. Civil War, not so much, due to turrets breaking LoS. You have to sacrifice Force Shroud in order to do it many times but do it right and the enemy is a sitting duck. That's okay?

 

[edit] I suppose it's not so easy to use against an enemy stealth class... and that is just further evidence that stealthers are too damn good at capping nodes and too damn good for defending them and as such I want to see a nerf across the board so that more classes can sit on defense without being victim to the amount of 8s CDs an operative and a shadow has at their disposal.

 

lol.. You are funny.

 

First you are saying about utility and then talking about the Phase Walk.

Unlike ANY OTHER 51lvl ability you cant use PhaseWalk just anywhere anytime. You have to prepare its use first. So basically instead of doing the objectives you are forced to spend half of the time preparing the use of the ability that maybe wont shoot anyways.

More over - if you have misused your preparation and placed PhaseWalk in the wrong place (or went more than 60m from the spot) you screwed the ability.

 

The PhaseWalk is so broken that it is a miracle if you manage to use it succefully for your benefit more than once or twice in a WZ.. And now compare the frequency of usage of the other 51lvl abilities of the other AC....

 

PS.. Huttball.. Scoundrel/Slinger with the ball using their 51lvl abilities do not losing the ball.

 

There are many ways to use Phase Walk in Huttball. Sure, it requires a bit of preparation, but once prepared it is awesome. But I don't like it, to be honest. It is fun to use, but it doesn't fit the IP.

 

As for scoundrel and gunslinger rolls... the scoundrel roll only rolls 6m while carrying the ball. It's still very good, but it's not like you can roll across the entire field, not without taking breaks inbetween. For defensive play the roll is very good as well. Without preparation you can rapidly roll back to defense, even while stealthed. It sucks and should be nerfed as well. Operatives needed a gap closer, not an escape tool... and this is even worse because it feels like lolroll is now the defining ability for operatives.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Missandei]

Very easy to use in Voidstar and Ancient Hypergate. Civil War, not so much, due to turrets breaking LoS. You have to sacrifice Force Shroud in order to do it many times but do it right and the enemy is a sitting duck. That's okay?

 

NO. Thats not ok. If we are talking about different abilities that Shadows have then we should either separate Resilience and Force Lift or count them as one. Because it is not fair to count this abilities as two if the only use they have as one.

 

Why should Shadows spend 2 abilities (one of them is crucial to a Shadows survivability) to gain the effect that other classes easily obtain by using only one ability? Thats the point.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Missandei

[PifferPuff]

Shadows is a perfect class now for a casual players.

 

. . .

 

To do Flashpoints! Shadows are fine for Flashpoints.

To do Dailies! Shadows are fine for Dailies.

To buy the stuff from Cartel Market! Shadows are excellent class for it!

To play with your appearance and excel your fashion designer skills! Shadows are perfect for it!

 

A lot of relaxing things to do for Casual players! Shadow is perfect relaxing class for a Casual Player!

 

Despite your lack in English skill, you hit the nail right on the head. I completely agree with all of your points, but would also add: "Shadows are great at ganking lowbies in OWPvP!"

 

 

 

Can you please enlighten me on this one?

 

How about 'no'.

 

You must be new here, so let me give you a little piece of advice: Do not ask Kitru to "enlighten you." You will be faced with a daunting wall of text that you will likely lack the linguistic skills to fully comprehend, and you will probably have to ask more clarifying questions, to which he will reply with more walls of text, and then refer you to even more walls of text in adjacent threads. NEVER ask Kitru to enlighten you or clarify things for you, unless you are fully prepared for the verbal deluge that would follow.

Edited August 9, 2013 by PifferPuff

[Leafy_Bug]

Shadows is a perfect class now for a casual players.

 

As a casual player you dont really have time to participate in Hard/NiM operations. And why would you even want them? It is timeconsuming and potentially exhausting experience that can bring frustration or irritation ( because of your faults or other ppl faults that cause wipes). So it is good that responsible group wont take you to neither Tank nor DPS the Hm/NiM ops.

 

PvP. It is not for you. Moreover - PvP is usually a very stressful. You want to lose faith in humanity? Solo join the WZ!

As a casual player you are coming home and turn on your computer to get some relaxation. PvP is definitely not the place to calm your nerves. You joined the WZ no matter what? You have stealth! stay at the distance in the stealth. Dont let anyone hurt you. And just watch how they kill each other.

 

So what is left?

To do Flashpoints! Shadows are fine for Flashpoints.

To do Dailies! Shadows are fine for Dailies.

To buy the stuff from Cartel Market! Shadows are excellent class for it!

To play with your appearance and excel your fashion designer skills! Shadows are perfect for it!

 

A lot of relaxing things to do for Casual players! Shadow is perfect relaxing class for a Casual Player!

 

 

 

You are so correct my friend. The occasional Athiss in BIS 72 Underworld is so relaxing. After that ordeal, parking my Taun Taun on the fleet, casually of course, is priceless, for everything else there is MASTERCARD!

[Majspuffen]

NO. Thats not ok. If we are talking about different abilities that Shadows have then we should either separate Resilience and Force Lift or count them as one. Because it is not fair to count this abilities as two if the only use they have as one.

 

Why should Shadows spend 2 abilities (one of them is crucial to a Shadows survivability) to gain the effect that other classes easily obtain by using only one ability? Thats the point.

 

Okay. So why can't Sith Warriors ninja cap? Or Mercenaries, they only have 1 8s mez and they too have to pop two CDs if they want that **** to go off without interruption. Why can't vanguards ninja cap? My point is that Operatives and Shadows have too damn much. I want them both to be nerfed, not just Shadows.

 

[edit] making sap unusable in pvp, for instance, would go a long way...

Edited August 9, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Leafy_Bug]

Okay. So why can't Sith Warriors ninja cap? Or Mercenaries, they only have 1 8s mez and they too have to pop two CDs if they want that **** to go off without interruption. Why can't vanguards ninja cap? My point is that Operatives and Shadows have too damn much. I want them both to be nerfed, not just Shadows.

 

[edit] making sap unusable in pvp, for instance, would go a long way...

 

 

Nerf Shadows!!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Majspuffen]

Nerf Shadows!!

 

And operatives.