Rough draft of our three questions!

[mfourcustom]

Thanks for all the great feedback on the questions guys! again the questions will be expanded on of course but I wanted to at the very least get a rough draft out here so i had something to build upon with all your feedback. Again i'll just be posting the updated and expanded questions up here again for you guys to let loose on them and tell me what you think needs to be done with them.

 

Agreed the "nerf" was probably bad wording that will be changed

 

Thanks again everyone.

[mfourcustom]

UPDATED QUESTIONS.

 

 

So, again hit me with your best shot!! I want to thank scythEleven again for the excellent PVE question with his question it free'ed up our "other" questions which i have switched to a lack of an execution talent (because many people in game and here have sent me PMS and Tells asking to pose the question of lacking an finisher so again we have until the 16th until our questions are due so lets make these the best we can together!

 

 

PVP:

 

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two dps/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cool down that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phase walk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cool-downs (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated PVP) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring, For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?

 

PVE:

 

With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness?

 

( I would like to thank scythEleven for his amazing input on our PVE question he worded it perfectly.)

 

Other:

Both the shadow and the guardian classes have an execute talent (guardians having dispatch and shadows having spinning strike) many players from the community have brought up the question as to why vanguards lack an execute talent? The community feels that an execute talent would greatly benefit the class. Many times in PVP we find ourselves close to killing an enemy player but we come up short due to the lack of a talent like dispatch or sipping strike.Example: in a one versus one with a guardian DPS if we somehow manage to survive through the guardians large amounts of cool downs and we both end up dropping one another to under thirty percent if our stuns are on cool down a guardian can use his or her execute talent to finish us or come close to finishing us were as we are forced to kite and hope for lucky crits. We understand that for example in the assault tree the passive talent “burn out” when specced into acts as a passive finisher (increase the damage dealt by periodic and elemental effects to targets below thirty percent) but since the 2.0 changes and our burst being crippled the lack of a execute talent is even more so apparent after 2.0. So with that said can you offer us any insight as to why our class lacks such a talent or if somehow an exaction talent could be implemented?

Edited August 9, 2013 by mfourcustom

[FeralPug]

Hey guys,

 

This is Jerc Starr, the PT rep.

 

I would urge you guys to revamp your third question. Asking why we don't have an execute talent is not going to get us anything. I've seen this question asked several times since launch, and not only has it been met with indifference by the devs, but I think it is pointing us in the wrong direction.

 

I personally don't want another talent like other classes out there. We need something different, unique and fun. Plus, having an execute ability doesn't necessarily translate to being a viable endgame spec (I'm looking at you Watchman and Deception). Instead of framing questions like this: "Class X has ability Y. PT's should have it too", we need to be asking things like "PT's ability X is not working in your endgame. Here's why it's not working. Here are our suggestions on how to make it work. Whaddya think?"

 

Guys, we are the most underrepresented class in endgame for both PVP and PVE. We are by all accounts the "worst class in the game". We can't softball these questions. We need to attack with data, and with specific examples. As it is, in the current answers to both Snipers and Sents, even though the devs provided detailed answers to the questions, they also stated that class balance is a long way off!

 

Frankly, I'm pissed about this. From our class's perspective, this game is broken. We are forced to play other classes if we want to enjoy endgame, and it shouldn't be like that. Our questions need to put some serious pressure on the developers to come up with near term solutions.

 

Here's a question:

 

Why are we waiting so long for class balance passes? Can't you guys do incremental passes between larger patches? Why can't they take October and make it "Powertech Month".

 

Here's how it would work:

 

The class community is polled for questions and changes.

 

Week 1: Incremental changes to all three PT trees are introduced to live servers.

 

Week 2: Data and feedback is collected.

 

Week 3: Corrective/additional incremental changes made to class.

 

The following month, it's Operatives' turn, etc.

 

------------

 

Asking for an execute is a waste of time. We need to do more and go deeper if we have any chance in reviving our dead class.

Edited August 9, 2013 by FeralPug

[Mathemagica]

PVP:

 

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two dps/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cool down that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phase walk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cool-downs (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated PVP) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring. For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?

 

I think this is a good PvP question, but I suggest to change its wording in the following way:

Replace the part 'For example (in this example... ...that these talents don't stack up to the other two classes talents' by the following:

'While in the right hands skills like Harpoon and Hold the Line are useful, the community feels that Guardians and Shadows possess skills of the same quality or even higher (e.g. A Guardian can combine Force charge and Force push to imitate Harpoon or do even better stuff and both Guardians and Shadows have more or stronger mobility skills.).'

 

I make this suggestion to avoid that they end up talking only about the skills and situations which you mentioned in the part that I suggested to replace. I think we should stay at the level where we only talk about the skills themselves, not about examples (unless the example contains everything we want to talk about in the question at hand).

 

Apart from that: It would help, if you could make our point in a shorter way. The question is quite long.

Furthermore, it is a wall of text. Hitting enter at the right places might give the thing a bit more structure and make it more readable.

 

PVE:

 

With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness?

 

( I would like to thank scythEleven for his amazing input on our PVE question he worded it perfectly.)

 

I like this question. Again, hit enter at the right places to make it more readable. I can't come up with any other improvements for this one.

 

Other:

Both the shadow and the guardian classes have an execute talent (guardians having dispatch and shadows having spinning strike) many players from the community have brought up the question as to why vanguards lack an execute talent? The community feels that an execute talent would greatly benefit the class. Many times in PVP we find ourselves close to killing an enemy player but we come up short due to the lack of a talent like dispatch or sipping strike.Example: in a one versus one with a guardian DPS if we somehow manage to survive through the guardians large amounts of cool downs and we both end up dropping one another to under thirty percent if our stuns are on cool down a guardian can use his or her execute talent to finish us or come close to finishing us were as we are forced to kite and hope for lucky crits. We understand that for example in the assault tree the passive talent “burn out” when specced into acts as a passive finisher (increase the damage dealt by periodic and elemental effects to targets below thirty percent) but since the 2.0 changes and our burst being crippled the lack of a execute talent is even more so apparent after 2.0. So with that said can you offer us any insight as to why our class lacks such a talent or if somehow an exaction talent could be implemented?

 

What I would write without reading FeralPugs post above: I would rewrite something at the very end. In the third line from the bottom you mention the lack of burst. I fear that they will only reply that Assault is supposed to have sustained damage, not burst. Instead I would write something like: 'Even with the passive talent Burn Out we have neither the burst to kill the enemy immediately nor the the survivability to survive until our dots killed the enemy.

 

 

Having FeralPugs post in mind: Maybe we could discuss again, what the last question should be. FeralPug has a good point. I don't expect us to get an execute and if there is a more alternative way to make the dps trees viable again, this might be much more interesting and give us a nice unique tool. (There are too many trees with an execute proc in this game since 2.0. Executes have become boring by now;).)

Edited August 9, 2013 by Mathemagica

[wetslampigduex]

UPDATED QUESTIONS.

 

PVP:

 

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two dps/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cool down that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phase walk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cool-downs (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated PVP) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring, For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?.

 

I believe you miss Riot Gas/Oil Slick in there....

 

And TBH asking for another DCD I don't believe is going to get us very far. I understand DPS feel very helpless ATM, however you give a VG tank another DCD they'll be easily the best tanks in the game most likely OP. I believe you should be working harder at getting the burst back. I.E. pre 2.0 TD,CGC, and armor pen(sorry I don't like you AP players flamethrower is not reliable enough for me). I know I never felt squishy when people started attacking me when I had 3/4 to half HP and turned and burned them in 5/6 GCD's. No reason TD and the armor pen cant be switched right back to the way they were Juggs have an aoe that hits for 7/8k+, why cant we get a single target ability that does 6k. I understand that the PVE question touches on this, but the way I felt pre 2.0 is our burst was our survivability and our utility is/was the ability to kite like a champ.

 

I think the question is fantasic and worded perfectly, I just believe it'll be blown off.

Edited August 9, 2013 by wetslampigduex

[JMagee]

I believe you miss Riot Gas/Oil Slick in there....

 

By suggesting he forgot to mention Riot Gas, you're implying that all VGs are required to run at least 11/x/x in PVP. The skills he quoted for Shadows and Guardians (to the best of my knowledge) are not talented, but are inherent to the base class. In his list of Shadow/Guardian cooldowns, he did not include KW or Warding Call, which would be the talent equivalent to Riot Gas in their respective tanking trees.

 

So I believe his comparison is simply better without the mention of Riot Gas, because including it would be unbalanced.

Edited August 9, 2013 by JMagee

[ctor]

Your questions look pretty good so far. Besides being incredibly wordy, there are a few issues I see that weren't really touched on:

 

1. Personally I think shoulder cannon should be reworked into something less "clumsy." Perhaps something along the lines of contingency charges - adds burst too. Also despite claiming this skill is off the gcd, it still has a small cooldown. Just change it entirely.

2. In assault, there is no reason to pick up AP OR any of the other garbage skills you have to take to even get to AP (combat stims, assault frame, degauss, etc). In order to make an AP build more enticing, those skills need to be reworked. I highly doubt they are going to make AP alone hit hard enough to overcome a hybrid's potential. I would assume after the balance, full AP would be your bursty pvp build, while hybrid will maintain aoe based with less burst.

3. Plasma cell needs a fairly large damage boost to make vanguards viable again as a dps class. I'd say pre 2.0 would be a start. This would help overall raid damage and would help with the pvp burst problem. Less procs more damage.

[foxmob]

PVE:

With the nerfs following 2.0 currently in PVE the highest parsing spec is a hybrid dps spec with assault and tactics, is this intended to be the case? If not what changes could be made to ensure each tree is capable on its own in a PVE setting?

 

Other:

With the nerfs to assault spec in 2.0 and the redesign of the top tier talent assault plastique the vanguard community feels that vanguard DPS is now suffering heavily in PVP lacking burst, is there anyway in the near future the assault spec weaknesses and the overall weaknesses of the spec could be addressed so assault vanguards could stack up to other DPS classes like guardian smashers and infiltration shadows?

 

did not read the replies, so if this already been covered, my bad...but:

 

these are almost the same question. the reason hybrid is ideal is because they nerfed assault plastique (turning pyro into a dot spec, and it was the only burst spec to begin with).

 

My suggestion: keep the PVE question, but make it more directly applicable to assault plastique. Use the "other" question as a forum to address tactics, which has a lot more problems/issues. the capstone for tactics isn't nearly as bad as it is for assault. however, the major dmg dealing ability is ridiculously difficult to perform. most of the suggestions I've read revolve around an alacrity buff that allows pulse cannon to complete in 1.5s. I think this alacrity buff should be chained to/proc'd by an hib crit, thus producing more synergy in what is a schizophrenic "rotation."

 

lastly, check the date for our questions, the powrtech questions, the merc questions, and the mando questions. the assault plastique questions WILL crop up in whichever grp goes first.

[Aelaias]

What does the class do? It does tanking and dps.

 

How is tanking? Not bad, could be better. What is the deficiency that you see in pvp or pve and how would you correct it to make the class more desirable (comparisons to other classes may not be useful)?.... Answer

 

How is dps? 2 specs are both atrocious. Why?

 

1. Assault : Relies on burst from crits of several low damaging abilities. Has 3 dots which can be cleansed by 2 classes in ANY spec in pvp. Abilities do mediocre damage when they crit but stacking works if dots are not cleansed. Crits are very low outside of a 15 second window every 2 minutes. Subpar burst in pvp, parses have demonstrated subpar sustained in pve especially as compared to the hybrid spec. Answer: With only 6 seconds on hold the line, one damage reduction cooldown, and a self heal only active within the execute window the class is subpar to other dps classes in dps and durabilityin both pve and pvp. Question What is the role of the assault spec in your view, does it's current performance as reported by players satisfies that view? If it doesn't, what in your opinion is it lacking?

 

2. Tactics Relies on damage from several low damaging abilities which cannot be stacked -- burst even worse than assault. Good sustained damage with is competetive in endggame pve, not pvp (limited personal experience). Question can be the same as above or more specific vis a vis it has been demonstrated that the spec underperforms in PVE as compared to the hybrid spec and far behind other dps classes. What do you feel the spec needs to bring it up to par with sentinels, and snipers as high end pvp and pve dps.

[Marb]

I am a little concerned that the questions are bloated. There is too much talk of huttball when trying to draw comparisons between tank classes, when its not hutball at all that makes those other tanks stand out in pvp. The question should be stripped down, and be more specific.

 

And please don't bring up an execute talent, if you want to talk about comparative gaps in vanguard skillset, it would be a gap closer, or some form of speed boost now that operatives have their roll.

 

Shoulder Cannon and adrenaline rush are both worthy of being mentioned in some way. Their implementation is clumsy and awkward, though at least we don't have lolphase walk.

[Canga]

The PVE and PVP questions are good, could propably be narrowed down but they deal with our main issues.

 

As for the third question I would be interested in hearing the dev's thought on our role as a dps and are we performing according to thier visions?

- We're partly to full melee with no gap closer, why?

- We don't bring any raid utility (like bloodlust and CC) and still are below more useful classes in dps output, why?

- What are the intended dps niches for the trees? Tactics rely on pulse cannon that suggest aoe but its channel is cumbersome, Assult is dot class with medium burst while mobile?

[VoidBird]

i think the questions are decent but could be worded better..i'd just like to point out some things i wanna see. really the main concerns i'd like addressed are primarily the HIB and the adrenaline rush (defensives in general)..

Hib sucks now and needs a boost, doing so would give us an execute again and make us more competitive without having to change too many things.. there are a few ways to boost the Hib, one would be to give it an automatic crit that isnt only in the tactics tree dependent on stockstrike. i think that would be the best option, make the Hib autocrit whenever... or even if its not the Hib, any kind of autocrit would be nice, prefereably a move that does aoe dmg, explosive surge for example,

nextly is adrenaline rush. i would say that adrenaline rush still sucks and needs some work.. the fact that it only heals once below 30% hp and not very well either means once below 30% hp you're basically already dead and the adrenaline rush was useless.. one thing could be to make it heal you for whatever it does regardless of where your hp is. allow us to pop it and get heals whenever its off cd, rather then make us wait to dip below 30% and face certain death. another thing to do could also be to make one of our moves heal us for a certain amount, ie dmg dealt by such n such also heals you for this much. that would give us some more survivability..

but yea thats pretty much it from my end.. give us a bit more burst, autocrit, and some more decent self-heals

Edited August 11, 2013 by VoidBird

[Aelaias]

I disagree with the above posters on the issue of mobility, in that regard I feel the class is in a decent place. On the issue of execute both dps specs are severely lacking in finishing power and having an execute would correct that. Also, commando suit being the preferred option for pvp should be addressed.

[ZeroPlus]

Just a reminder.

 

We are posing 3 questions so that they can explain their choices to us.

 

We are NOT providing 3 suggestions or indicating what, in our minds, needs fixing.

 

So, comment on the questions or suggest *new questions*. This is not the place for suggestions.

[VoidBird]

Just a reminder.

 

We are posing 3 questions so that they can explain their choices to us.

 

We are NOT providing 3 suggestions or indicating what, in our minds, needs fixing.

 

So, comment on the questions or suggest *new questions*. This is not the place for suggestions.

 

 

actually according to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659814 it states the purpose of the class rep thing is to present the top 3 "issues OR questions" that will then be "answered OR commented on" . the top 3 do NOT need to be questions per say.. rather the top 3 "Issues" presented for a much needed response... so in-fact we are "indicating what, in our minds, needs fixing", that is the point...

 

with that being said the most crucial at this point imo are these three 1) lack of burst and/or an execute/finisher 2) lack of adequate survivability rate ie self-heals and/or defensive cd's 3) the top tier abilities are inadequate compared with hybrid specs

I think also that those 3 issues will suffice for both pvp and pve.. all thats needed is to elaborate on those issues with specific examples and boom there is our submission for review..

[af_raptura]

Just a reminder.

 

We are posing 3 questions so that they can explain their choices to us.

 

We are NOT providing 3 suggestions or indicating what, in our minds, needs fixing.

 

So, comment on the questions or suggest *new questions*. This is not the place for suggestions.

 

Actaully, I think they kind of are asking for some suggestions. If you look at the sentinel questions, they were responsive to some feedback concerning building stacks of centering/fury during their group buffs.

[Ottoattack]

Hey guys,

 

This is Jerc Starr, the PT rep.

 

I would urge you guys to revamp your third question. Asking why we don't have an execute talent is not going to get us anything. I've seen this question asked several times since launch, and not only has it been met with indifference by the devs, but I think it is pointing us in the wrong direction.

 

I personally don't want another talent like other classes out there. We need something different, unique and fun. Plus, having an execute ability doesn't necessarily translate to being a viable endgame spec (I'm looking at you Watchman and Deception). Instead of framing questions like this: "Class X has ability Y. PT's should have it too", we need to be asking things like "PT's ability X is not working in your endgame. Here's why it's not working. Here are our suggestions on how to make it work. Whaddya think?"

 

Guys, we are the most underrepresented class in endgame for both PVP and PVE. We are by all accounts the "worst class in the game". We can't softball these questions. We need to attack with data, and with specific examples. As it is, in the current answers to both Snipers and Sents, even though the devs provided detailed answers to the questions, they also stated that class balance is a long way off!

 

Frankly, I'm pissed about this. From our class's perspective, this game is broken. We are forced to play other classes if we want to enjoy endgame, and it shouldn't be like that. Our questions need to put some serious pressure on the developers to come up with near term solutions.

 

Here's a question:

 

Why are we waiting so long for class balance passes? Can't you guys do incremental passes between larger patches? Why can't they take October and make it "Powertech Month".

 

Here's how it would work:

 

The class community is polled for questions and changes.

 

Week 1: Incremental changes to all three PT trees are introduced to live servers.

 

Week 2: Data and feedback is collected.

 

Week 3: Corrective/additional incremental changes made to class.

 

The following month, it's Operatives' turn, etc.

 

------------

 

Asking for an execute is a waste of time. We need to do more and go deeper if we have any chance in reviving our dead class.

 

Jerc brings a very important point. Facts and evidence are undeniable and unavoidable. The second question specifically can be backed with tons of evidence (TORparse).

 

The third question beside that it won't resolve the class problems in PvP and PvE, you will get a very disappointing answer from the devs. Since the expansion, the tree that took the biggest hit is assault. Your third question was originally about it. I think that assault over all performance in both PvP and PvE is beyond disappointing, that most people who still stick with the class do not use this tree any more. Its lacking in burst and sustained damage and has the worst defensive capabilities of all dps trees. It is the class most precedent issue and can be easily backed-up by evidence (no one plays assault anymore in RWZ, on TORparse highest parser is below 2,700).

 

Remember, we are not marauders or snipers asking for quality life improvements. We are a class that falls between non-viable to semi viable on all trees, while every other class has at least one optimal tree. We are literally the "worst" class as the game balance currently stands. The questions need to reflect that and corner the devs with facts and evidence that they can not give us a BS answer.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Chickensevil]

Be careful, Bioware logic would be to just switch the places of the rail shot proc talent with TD in Pyro, and Flamethrower proc with Immolate in AP. And I would bet they'd be all like "TADAAAAA!! Fixed!"

 

Yeah i was thinking of something similar or some kind of nerf of the hybrid spec without fixing anything (i.e. tying the IP talents to their respective cells)..

 

Sorry for the delayed response. Good point, I was NOT trying to imply that at all, as I was just trying to avoid the "nerf hybrid" tone they would see in the post... course if they did swap the capstone ability with the middle tree ability it would make for an interresting attempt to nerf hybrid AND make us "need" to go full tree... haha! Problem fixed! Right? Right?

 

Then, new hybrid spec: Immolate and TD (or whatever the Vanguard names are)... Could be fun running with both of those (even in their current state)

 

In all seriousness, I really don't want this to end up like that "other" MMO, where one class gets something cool, everyone complains because they have something that REQUIRES you bring them, and now another class just gets dropped off, and the solution was to just give the ability to another class (Bloodlust/Time Warp anyone?)

 

So to that end I agree with Jerc (Feral Pug) that we shouldn't just be given an execute "cause' that is what everyone else has". There should be something uniquely useful about our class that it doesn't matter which spec you run, everyone is like "I gotta have a PT on my ops team/rated pvp". I constantly feel the need to justify my position on my Ops team.

[mfourcustom]

Thanks for the feedback guys.. The exacute talent question was only put in because I received many in game mails on pot5 about it and also some PMS here and whispers about it. I really don't think the class NEEDS an execute talent seeing as how all of our talents are insta cast already ion pulse itself is kinda like a mini execute IMO but i would like you guys to answer me on this DO we really wanna make our third question about lack of burst and just focus on that?

 

That's really something I wanted to do but people didn't seem to like it the first time around. If so I will change it to lack of burst in BOTH tactics and assault (been playing tactics the past few days to gear up with it for rateds) but I mean its up to you guys the lack of burst to me is the biggest problem with the class but the first time around people didn't really seem to like that question being our "other" question.

 

and yes the questions are a bit on the bloated side and will be cut down!

[Mathemagica]

So to that end I agree with Jerc (Feral Pug) that we shouldn't just be given an execute "cause' that is what everyone else has". There should be something uniquely useful about our class that it doesn't matter which spec you run, everyone is like "I gotta have a PT on my ops team/rated pvp". I constantly feel the need to justify my position on my Ops team.

 

Maybe the following idea can be made into a question: What if we could make Shoulder Cannon our replacement of an execute?

During my last few warzones I noticed that this is the way I use it (the enemy is almost dead, somebody tries to stun me while the almost dead enemy tries to run. Even stunned, I get those missiles off to give him the killing blow, so it even has a situational advantage to a normal execute.). This works in Tactics already to some degree due to the increased damage and the number of missiles.

The problem is, that the cooldown of Shoulder Cannon is too long to use it as an execute against every enemy.

I don't know how Shoulder Cannon works with Assault. I guess that it doesn't do enough damage there, because Assault doesn't have the damage boost on Shoulder Cannon, Tactic gets.

 

This could be worded in the following way: The community feels that in PvP Vanguards have troubles to finish an enemy off due to the lack of an execute. Shoulder Cannon seems like it could be used as a replacement for an execute. However, due to its long cooldown and the amount of damage it does in Assault, this currently doesn't work very well.

What is the function you have intended for Shoulder Cannon in the different Vanguard trees? Is it intended to fulfill the function of quickly finishing off an enemy that is near dying (PvP)/that should die in the next few seconds (PvE)? Do you think that it fits the goals you have for the skill? If not, what could be done to improve it?

 

This question is somewhat concrete, if we compare it to the other questions we have. But I wanted to make the suggestion anyway, because it might give a better answer than just asking for an execute.

[af_raptura]

Thanks for the feedback guys.. The exacute talent question was only put in because I received many in game mails on pot5 about it and also some PMS here and whispers about it. I really don't think the class NEEDS an execute talent seeing as how all of our talents are insta cast already ion pulse itself is kinda like a mini execute IMO but i would like you guys to answer me on this DO we really wanna make our third question about lack of burst and just focus on that?

 

That's really something I wanted to do but people didn't seem to like it the first time around. If so I will change it to lack of burst in BOTH tactics and assault (been playing tactics the past few days to gear up with it for rateds) but I mean its up to you guys the lack of burst to me is the biggest problem with the class but the first time around people didn't really seem to like that question being our "other" question.

 

and yes the questions are a bit on the bloated side and will be cut down!

 

Personally, and this is just my opinion and with a pvp bias, I would rather have a burst question than one asking about an execute. I feel that in pvp, having burst is a little more robust than having an execute. You can still make a great class without the execute. For example, arsenal mercs and lightning sorcs, if you're slow to react, will hit for like 10k heetseekers and 9k thundering blasts. Whereas if you give an execute to Tactics and Assault and change nothing else, they might be like annihilation maraders with steady damage + an execute.

 

The execute might help out pve a little more, though, since vanguards/powertechs would see a dps increase in execute phases of bass battles.

Edited August 14, 2013 by af_raptura

[BARSAL]

Lack of burst damage is the biggest problem imo but an execute certainly helps with that considering the ones that exist hit very hard. I personally think Fire Pulse needs to be auto-crit when the target has Gut Bleed on them, like Sages work with Weaken Mind/Turbulence, and/or a pure damage buff to Fire Pulse (even if it's only 5%). Also HiB needs to be buffed (I would say like 15% or give back the extra armor pen) for all the specs to have sufficient and consistent burst damage, not just burst damage when Battle Focus is up.

[Luckyluzi]

Thanks for the feedback guys.. The exacute talent question was only put in because I received many in game mails on pot5 about it and also some PMS here and whispers about it. I really don't think the class NEEDS an execute talent seeing as how all of our talents are insta cast already ion pulse itself is kinda like a mini execute IMO but i would like you guys to answer me on this DO we really wanna make our third question about lack of burst and just focus on that?

 

That's really something I wanted to do but people didn't seem to like it the first time around. If so I will change it to lack of burst in BOTH tactics and assault (been playing tactics the past few days to gear up with it for rateds) but I mean its up to you guys the lack of burst to me is the biggest problem with the class but the first time around people didn't really seem to like that question being our "other" question.

 

and yes the questions are a bit on the bloated side and will be cut down!

 

yeah the 3 questions/problems should focus on

 

1 lack of pvp survivability compared to guardian tanks(with shieldtech) and other melee DPS (sentinel -compared to assault and tactics)

2 lack of pve dps in full tactics /assault

3 lack of burst in pvp (because we have only burst with shoulder canon + combat focus, and they have too long cooldowns) OR lack auf group utility in pve and pvp compared to sentinels

Edited August 14, 2013 by Luckyluzi

[Chickensevil]

Maybe the following idea can be made into a question: What if we could make Shoulder Cannon our replacement of an execute?

During my last few warzones I noticed that this is the way I use it (the enemy is almost dead, somebody tries to stun me while the almost dead enemy tries to run. Even stunned, I get those missiles off to give him the killing blow, so it even has a situational advantage to a normal execute.). This works in Tactics already to some degree due to the increased damage and the number of missiles.

The problem is, that the cooldown of Shoulder Cannon is too long to use it as an execute against every enemy.

I don't know how Shoulder Cannon works with Assault. I guess that it doesn't do enough damage there, because Assault doesn't have the damage boost on Shoulder Cannon, Tactic gets.

 

This could be worded in the following way: The community feels that in PvP Vanguards have troubles to finish an enemy off due to the lack of an execute. Shoulder Cannon seems like it could be used as a replacement for an execute. However, due to its long cooldown and the amount of damage it does in Assault, this currently doesn't work very well.

What is the function you have intended for Shoulder Cannon in the different Vanguard trees? Is it intended to fulfill the function of quickly finishing off an enemy that is near dying (PvP)/that should die in the next few seconds (PvE)? Do you think that it fits the goals you have for the skill? If not, what could be done to improve it?

 

This question is somewhat concrete, if we compare it to the other questions we have. But I wanted to make the suggestion anyway, because it might give a better answer than just asking for an execute.

 

Problem is they said this was just a "utility" skill. Not meant to be "forced" into a rotation (well, correction, they said that specifically about the merc ability... but it is very similar to our shoulder cannon...) Interestingly enough since we are hurting on DPS so much in PVE, if you are leaving out the shoulder cannon to be used on CD then you are doing it wrong.

 

So it wasn't meant to be an execute or burst skill, necessarily. It was just meant to give you another option when you get stunned... but there are many, many problems with it. I wouldn't mind addressing our shoulder cannon issues, maybe in the second round of questions, but not the first... only because I strongly feel there are broader issues with the class than this one ability.

 

But I do like the idea of it being transformed into something more useful to the degree of, you WANT a PT on your team because of shoulder cannon, type thing. That was along the lines of what I was getting at, as opposed to just lets make all the classes the same.

[Chickensevil]

Thanks for the feedback guys.. The exacute talent question was only put in because I received many in game mails on pot5 about it and also some PMS here and whispers about it. I really don't think the class NEEDS an execute talent seeing as how all of our talents are insta cast already ion pulse itself is kinda like a mini execute IMO but i would like you guys to answer me on this DO we really wanna make our third question about lack of burst and just focus on that?

 

That's really something I wanted to do but people didn't seem to like it the first time around. If so I will change it to lack of burst in BOTH tactics and assault (been playing tactics the past few days to gear up with it for rateds) but I mean its up to you guys the lack of burst to me is the biggest problem with the class but the first time around people didn't really seem to like that question being our "other" question.

 

and yes the questions are a bit on the bloated side and will be cut down!

 

As others have stated, I was under the impression (until you posted these three questions) that we were going to go with 1. Survival 2. Hybrid being the only viable dps spec for pve. 3. burst

 

When you posed the questions on this thread it seemed like you were going after those goals by being a bit more specific. But, if it was just because people thought we needed an execute, then I guess I understand that. I am not opposed to an execute, I just think it would be better for the health of the game to not just make every class the same.

 

Content should be designed around being able to take just about any composition into it and down it, within reason. Obviously a raid full of Operative DPS might not be ideal, and I would expect people to have a ton of trouble for not diversifying, but that is not what I mean by "any composition". For PVP, there should be a couple classes in their own unique way of being good at being a node guard, for example. Or Ball runners... not everyone should be able to accomplish this task, and those that can shouldn't necessarily be because they are all big heavy slow moving tanks. It makes the game fresh, fun, and interesting. For example, it is really nice to have bloodthirst in your group, but certainly not required. This is perfect because it makes marauders desirable, while not making them necessary. Every class should have something like this.