The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[LadyKulvax]

Vader had the similar advantage of Dual-phase weaponry, able to change blade length at will, also he didn't only beat people because of his double-bladed lightsaber, the first time he beat Baas was because he called upon a second single-blade saber and beat the snuffing out of him with jar'kai, this by the way is the same person that was considered the best in the Order at the time in countless thousands and thousands of Jedi around the galaxy.

 

Kun was also clearly the best among the time of the Old Republic era, this is among MANY master duellists whom i could go on to list but I am meant to go to the cinema already.

 

To debunk Kun below Vader would be rather unfair given Vader has a similar advantage and Vader commonly used the Force during his duels where as Kun refused to use the Force just to prove his duelling superiority.

 

He was also a match for Ulic Qel-Droma whom was considered the best duellist in the Jedi Order when he arose to prominance and this is way before Ulic admits that Kun blazed right past him by the time of Ulic's announcement that he was attacking Coruscant.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[LadyKulvax]

I'm fairly sure Kun only ever mastered Niman.

 

Wrong he mastered Jar'kai and Juyo mixed Sith combat techniques and had a high proficiency in Ataru.

 

Anyway I will debate this later as I don't have the time, simply put, don't underestimate Kun just because of the timeline he was from.

 

Especially when he considered the duelling skills he witnessed in the NJO 'Most amusing' and later made the comment 'quaint'.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[TalonVII]

Wrong he mastered Jar'kai and Juyo mixed Sith combat techniques and had a high proficiency in Ataru.

 

Incorrect, he did infact master Nimian. infact he took that form to such a level, he just became a human killing machine. Jer'Kai is a two saber form IE a saber in both hands, and Kun never fought like that. He either used a double bladed, or a dual phase saber.

 

But yes for next i'd put him up for #6, or Blademaster Kas'im, who taught Bane and the Brotherhood. One of the best duelests of his day. He mastered EVERYTHING. Bout as good as Mace IMO, cept Kas'im didn't know Vaapad.

[LadyKulvax]

Incorrect, he did infact master Nimian. infact he took that form to such a level, he just became a human killing machine. Jer'Kai is a two saber form IE a saber in both hands, and Kun never fought like that. He either used a double bladed, or a dual phase saber.

 

I never claimed he didn't master Niman at all. also yes he did, as seen the first time he thrashed Master Baas as a Padawan and then proclaimed himself Jedi Master.

 

Anyway I have thirty minutes to get into the city center before my movie starts, have fun gentleman.

 

EDIT: Oh and just for fun, because his videos seem very highly regarded with some member's including you Beni:

Edited August 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

Jar'kai was just as rare as his saber staff in that day and age, using either was a rarity and since that's all he generally wielded everyone he fought he had the advantage of them not really being aware of how to fight some one using such weapons. In Vader's time the opponents he fought were much more aware of dual Phase weapons as well as saber staffs and Jar'kai and so was Vader. Kun is still the greatest master of Niman and I would still put him on around the same lvl as Vader I just regard Vader as slightly better if it were me I would say Vader 6, Kun 7, Dooku 8 since to me Kun and Vader are so darn close it is hard to call, but I feel Vader's hybridization is just slightly better and Kun's success was in part to the unfamiliarity with Saber staffs and Jar'kai at the time that he was using them.

[Beniboybling]

Vader had the similar advantage of Dual-phase weaponry, able to change blade length at will, also he didn't only beat people because of his double-bladed lightsaber, the first time he beat Baas was because he called upon a second single-blade saber and beat the snuffing out of him with jar'kai, this by the way is the same person that was considered the best in the Order at the time in countless thousands and thousands of Jedi around the galaxy.

 

Kun was also clearly the best among the time of the Old Republic era, this is among MANY master duellists whom i could go on to list but I am meant to go to the cinema already.

 

To debunk Kun below Vader would be rather unfair given Vader has a similar advantage and Vader commonly used the Force during his duels where as Kun refused to use the Force just to prove his duelling superiority.

 

He was also a match for Ulic Qel-Droma whom was considered the best duellist in the Jedi Order and this is way before Ulic admits that Kun blazed right past him by the time of Ulic's announcement that he was attacking Coruscant.

That would only be impressive if these duelists Kun surpassed where clearly superior or at least on par with Vader and Dooku, I don't think any of them are. And of course Malgus, Satele etc. aren't in that equation.

 

And Vader using the Force in battle doesn't discredit his abilities at all, if anything it shows a considerable skill with chaining Force powers into lightsaber sequences. The fact that Vader was able to duel an opponent highly effectively while using TK is very impressive indeed, and points to a great deal of mastery over the lightsaber.

[Beniboybling]

Incorrect, he did infact master Nimian. infact he took that form to such a level, he just became a human killing machine. Jer'Kai is a two saber form IE a saber in both hands, and Kun never fought like that. He either used a double bladed, or a dual phase saber.

 

But yes for next i'd put him up for #6, or Blademaster Kas'im, who taught Bane and the Brotherhood. One of the best duelests of his day. He mastered EVERYTHING. Bout as good as Mace IMO, cept Kas'im didn't know Vaapad.

Actually he did master Jar'Kai, but I can't see any mention of him mastering Juyo or Ataru. That said Anakin as a Padawan mastered Jar'Kai to such an extent that he was able to push back Dooku. And he was also highly skilled in Ataru, and incorporated elements of Juyo into his bladework. In fact he achieved a high level of skill over all the forms.

[tunewalker]

That would only be impressive if these duelists Kun surpassed where clearly superior or at least on par with Vader and Dooku, I don't think any of them are. And of course Malgus, Satele etc. aren't in that equation.

 

And Vader using the Force in battle doesn't discredit his abilities at all, if anything it shows a considerable skill with chaining Force powers into lightsaber sequences. The fact that Vader was able to duel an opponent highly effectively while using TK is very impressive indeed, and points to a great deal of mastery over the lightsaber.

 

Chaining force based attacks is an element of the single saber Niman Style.

[Beniboybling]

Chaining force based attacks is an element of the single saber Niman Style.

Well he did incorporate elements of every lightsaber form into his style, Niman included.

[Beniboybling]

EDIT: Oh and just for fun, because his videos seem very highly regarded with some member's including you Beni:

Notice how he makes no mention of Juyo or Ataru when described Kun's lightsaber forms. And he is an expert.

[tunewalker]

Well he did incorporate elements of every lightsaber form into his style, Niman included.

 

I know just pointing out which element of which style he was using that you were describing .

[Beniboybling]

I know just pointing out which element of which style he was using that you were describing .

Well I was more pointing to his ability to fight effectively with an saber while he mind is half distracted performing TK. But yeah that too.

[AlexDougherty]

I would say Kun actually, like him or not he was the best duellist by far during his era.

 

He also mastered multiple forms and implemented them into his hybridized version of Niman which if you take all the way is literally the best form to master because you become a jack of all trades, he didn't just do that, he implemented Ataru speed with masterful Jar'Kai which is displayed with his unmatched use of a double-bladed single hilt lightsaber and used Juyo type ruthlessness and unpredictability removing the moderation the Jedi wielded it with.

 

When he killed Baas, Baas couldn't even tell what form he was using..

 

I don't think Exar Kun was in the same league as the others, the Jedi and Sith learned a lot since his time, and he had a slight habit of antagonising his foes so much that they became more dangerous. Which would eem to suggest his skills were better, but any masterswordsman who causes the enemy to fight better in a fight to the death has a serious flaw, which has to count against him. He did it with the Cathar Sylvar, and he did it with Ulic Qel-Droma, who given his state of discomposure (interupted mis-seduction) should have been an easy target.

[tunewalker]

Well I was more pointing to his ability to fight effectively with an saber while he mind is half distracted performing TK. But yeah that too.

 

Which means he didn't just add it for the sake of adding it but was highly effective and skilled with his application of that particular Niman element into his personalized Djem So.

[Beniboybling]

Any more opinions on Vader, Exar Kun and Dooku for #6?

[AlexDougherty]

Any more opinions on Vader, Exar Kun and Dooku for #6?

 

My personal opinion is that Exar Kun is more on Par with Obi_Wan Kenobi, he is skilled and dangerous, but the advances in lightsaber skill have left him behind, if he had trained in the more modern era He would have learned the techniques and have been brought up to a higher level (provided they didn't just refuse to train him because of his ego and temper).

 

Having thought about tunewalker's posts, I have to say Anakin/Vader probably just has the edge over Count Dooku, but they both have the edge over Exar Kun and Obi-Wan.

 

So I'll say

#6 Vader/Anakin Skywalker

#7 Count Dooku/Darth Tyranous

 

But this is just my opinion, and could easily be wrong.

Edited August 15, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Wolfninjajedi]

Any more opinions on Vader, Exar Kun and Dooku for #6?

 

Vader was described as a machine, his bladework precise, crisp and so forth. Now to re-iterate that....

 

Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed. Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.

 

He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[marcelo_sdk]

Was away for some days, just saw the list now. Personally, I just don't agree with Yoda above Windu. But we can leave that for when the list is done, let's foccus on #6.

 

I'm have no doubts that Vader is superior to Tyranus. What we have to decide is if Exar Kun also is. If yes, we can discussa Vader vs. Kun, if not, Vader gets #6.

 

Also, I think Darth Malgus should be thrown into the discussion. He's on the level of all those contenders, he should be considered for, at least, #7.

Edited August 15, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Beniboybling]

Interesting opinions, I feel that Dooku is at least superior to Kun. Kun mastered Niman to a significant extent, but Dooku went that much further, the fact that he could contend with Yoda and Windu is testament to this.

 

As for Malgus, I don't feel he makes this list. He is certainly an accomplished duelist, but I feel he favors power over skill. And doesn't really go anywhere with his forms. Though his hybrid is impressive.

[LadyKulvax]

Darth Maul even names Exar Kun as a master of the Juyo Sith saber-combat techniques.

 

"There is only one ultimate form against a Jedi for a Sith Lord and that is the specialisation I have chosen to master during my apprenticeship under my Lord Sidious, the form mastered most famously by the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun is my weapon, the Jedi see the saberstaff as some form of Sith weapon and they are right, only a Sith can master Juyo and saberstaff techniques to their greatest degrees and unlock the ultimate form of battle with the double-bladed lightsaber, for a Sith would realise where the Jedi would not, that they are one in the same form, these techniques were made and honed for a Sith Lord and I shall master them just as my master and the ancient Sith did." - Darth Maul

 

He is also mentioned as a highly proficient Ataru user in the KotOR CG, one of the best since the Old Sith Wars started.

 

"Ataru is a form the Jedi have since adopted and made most common among the Order, but one must be wary, the Dark Side can easily use this form against us in a most brutal fashion, those under Darths Revan and Malak have used it in tandem with the more aggressive forms, just as the fallen Jedi Exar Kun once used it to it's highest degrees to maximise the speed of his brutal form against those that challenged him." - Master Kavar

 

And is once more mentioned as one of the most dangerous fallen Jedi in the entire Old Sith Wars:

 

"There is one Jedi that fell in recent history whom we must never forget the tale of, Exar Kun was a naturally gifted duellist and we must hope another like him never rises or most importantly, never falls again, his skills with a lightsaber were unmatched in our time, even among the likes of such Jedi families as the Sunriders and the Qel-Dromas, Kun was still the best of them all, his skills became such that his form became too unpredictable to read, his own master fell to him whilst he was a mere Padawan.

Kun was a revolutionary in Lightsaber combat, mastering techniques we are still yet to catch up with and even create, if another like him ever rises, we must be most vigilant in his training, lest he follow Kun's path, for such Jedi can quickly destroy much of what we built, like Ossus and other sites, our Order has weakened even as we rebuilt." - Master Kavar.

 

So there you have it, he was considered revolutionary and far beyond anyone of his era.

 

Niman is his primary form, of course that is mentioned above everything else, what is left out by many people though is that he perfected the form beyond it's highest state by introducing great speed from Ataru and the techniques required of a Sith specialist in Juyo and Jar'kai.

 

Exar Kun gets six, his absolute mastery of Niman easily puts him right near the top off the bat, because it is the best form to master to the highest degrees, that is not even debatable, then you add in the hybridization into his personal form and you have one of the best of a many thousands of years span and the fact he could do this easily with a single hilt length double-bladed weapon and you begin to understand just how frankly amazing his ability is with his weapons.

 

There is a reason that even the Sith of the Sith Empire use him multiple times as the measuring stick of Sith Warriors, not any of the current Sith, not any others of the past Sith Lords, but Exar Kun.

 

And then you have the fact that he found the duelling skills of the New Jedi Order 'most amusing' and you realise he more than stands the test of time.

 

Just because he didn't fight during the Golden Age shouldn't be an insta-gimp to any argument for him.

 

Not I'd stick around and debate some more, but the next few days decide whether or not I work for dark horse.

Edited August 15, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

That's definitely some food for thought, I wasn't aware of those quotes from Kavar.

 

I'll listen to everyone else's opinions, and perhaps then do an in-depth comparison.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I still don't see Kun over Vader, he has only bested two people. One of which his master, who he had to employ his double bladed saber thus catching his master off guard and given that the double bladed saber wasn't around during the time, this gave him a huge advantage over...well pretty much everyone. I am gonna give that to being a big advantage for him, a saber that pretty much no Jedi knew about during the time.

 

Not saying Kun wasn't powerful, but his dueling skills...I just don't know. Yes he was described as better then everyone else during his time, but honestly is that impressive? Who else was around that could possibly pose a threat to him in combat, that are near anywhere in skill to future duelists?

Edited August 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Some videos from the Jensaarai worth listening two:

 

 

[Beniboybling]

I still don't see Kun over Vader, he has only bested two people. One of which his master, who he had to employ his double bladed saber thus catching his master off guard and given that the double bladed saber wasn't around during the time, this gave him a huge advantage over...well pretty much everyone. I am gonna give that to being a big advantage for him, a saber that pretty much no Jedi knew about during the time.

 

Not saying Kun wasn't powerful, but his dueling skills...I just don't know. Yes he was described as better then everyone else during his time, but honestly is that impressive? Who else was around that could possibly pose a threat to him in combat, that are near anywhere in skill to future duelists?

That's hardly fair, Kun simply didn't have enough duelist to pit himself against.

 

What we can say is:

 

Exar Kun has never one a lightsaber duel.

Exar Kun was the greatest duelist of his age.

 

But like Rayla said, he was ahead of his time. Waaay ahead.

[TalonVII]

Any more opinions on Vader, Exar Kun and Dooku for #6?

 

my view Kun for 6, Vader for 7, Dooku for 8, Blademaster Kas'im for 9.