[Rep] State of the Guardian Address

[Andrew_Past]

Disclaimer:

I want to make it clear that I am addressing where the Guardian fits in the game, fundamental concerns, and solutions. I am not addressing bugs in this thread.

 

Everything in this post is my opinion based on my experience with the class since pre-launch. However, I have been extremely successful on the Fatman and POT5 servers using this class in PVP, and feel that I have a firm understanding of the class. If you want more on my background, check This thread.

 

General State of the Guardian Class:

Guardians are in a fairly good state at the moment. Yes, there are issues and concerns that need to be addressed. However, this hasn't stopped Guardians from being a very viable class in both PVE and PVP. Guardians can be competent tanks and DPS. Guardians have fairly strong defensive abilities, but they aren't as easy to use as a Sentinel's. This combined with less raid utility and overall DPS can sometimes lead to DPS Guardians being overlooked in both the PVE and PVP arenas.

 

State of PVE Guardians:

Tanking:

Guardian PVE tanks are in a fairly good spot right now. Guardians have some of the strongest set of defensive cool downs in the game, and good passive defensives as well. Guardians are competitive for all end game tanking content. However, there are a couple issues. The main issue being threat management. Due to the Guardian's limited range, holding threat on multiple targets can be an issue. Additionally, Guardian's are susceptible to knockbacks at the beginning of pulls, which can cause an issue of not being able to build enough threat to keep the boss from turning to DPS.

 

DPS:

Guardian PVE DPS is in a good, but not great, spot right now. Both DPS trees are usable in endgame content, and can be switched between on a per fight basis. Guardian single target DPS can be high, with good RNG. However, they are still behind both Gunslingers, and, more importantly, Sentinels. There is also the issue of our threat dump being so expensive. These issues coupled with lack of unique raid wide utility compared to Sentinels has caused some otherwise outstanding Guardians to be overlooked.

 

The main issue with Guardian PVE DPS is how they compare to Sentinels. They fall behind in damage output, require more RNG to even get close to that output, and provide less raid utility. The issue is not large enough to exclude Guardians from serious PVE content, but it still is not ideal.

 

State of PVP Guardians:

Tanking:

Guardian PVP tanks are in a great spot right now. Guardians have some of the strongest set of defensive cool downs in the game, and good passive defensives as well. Guardians are almost always chosen to be the main tank for serious rated teams. Guardian PVP tanks have great mobility, a large amount of CC, great tools for peeling and guarding, and great group utility. The only issue I see for Guardian PVP tanks is that their damage is lower than other tanks. However, this isn't a huge issue.

 

DPS:

Guardian PVP DPS have some great points, while needing help in others.

 

Focus:

The damage output of the Focus tree is incredibly high in a PVP environment due to the highest AOE damage of any spec in the game. This damage output is almost too high, but I will get into that in another thread. The rotation is incredibly simple, almost to a fault. The damage potential of Focus Guardians is slightly higher than a Focus Sentinels, due to 6% extra force damage, 6% extra Strength, access to armor sunders, and 10% higher Masterstrike damage. Focus Guardians also can easily snare groups of enemies regularly, whereas Focus Sentinels can only reliably snare one target at a time. Guardians can also taunt enemies and provide better control with Force Push.

 

Despite these strengths, Focus Guardians are usually overlooked for rated team slots due to being less survivable than Sentinels. Focus Guardians have no good general purpose short cool down defensive ability. Focused Defense helps a bit, but isn't even close in comparison to the Rebuke that Sentinels get. Another huge downside is that Focus Sentinels have access to 30% AOE damage reduction. Focus Sentinels can also obtain an extra 4% passive damage reduction, which brings their passive damage reduction close to Focus Guardian levels. Additionally, Focus Sentinels can lower the cool down of Guarded by the Force by a whopping 30 seconds. This greatly out shadows the Guardian equivalent talent that reduces the focus cost of Focused Defense by 2.

 

Vigilance:

Vigilance is one of the most adaptive specs in the game. It has great defensive capabilities, decent burst, and good sustained DPS. A skilled Vigilance player can take down any other class, some harder than others. Vigilance is also the best DPS spec in the game to off tank with, should the situation arise. Well played Vigilance will also be a serious threat to anyone he or she decides to sit on. Vigilance also has a large variety of abilities that keep the spec interesting and complex in a good way. Vigilance's CC immunity coupled with Force Leap's root can also be used for great effect to put a lot of pressure on a vulnerable target.

 

Regardless, these advantages are not enough for most rated teams to bring Vigilance. While Vigilance does very well in a lot of different areas, it doesn't have enough to stand out. The burst it does is good, but not spectacular. The sustained damage is great, but can be mitigated in a rated environment with guard switching and cross healing. Vigilance also has issues with being kited and is highly susceptible to roots.

 

Though, the main issue stems from the fact that Vigilance is the only Knight spec without any unique group utility. Watchman has group heals and a shorter CD interrupt, Combat has greater Transcendence speed and a plethora of roots, Focus has greater group pressure and more/easier to use snares, and tanks have guard, group armor sunders, and a great amount of CC. Vigilance has nothing to offer in terms of unique group utility.

 

Solutions:

General changes:

Focused Defense:

Focused Defense is a great defensive cool down... if you're playing Vigilance. Even then, it is disproportionately expensive compared to other short duration general purpose defensive cool downs in the game. For tanks and Focus players, Focused Defense is an afterthought. It simply does not provide enough mitigation to be worth the focus spent on the ability. Furthermore, PVE tanks can't even use it due to it being a threat drop.

 

I propose that Focused Defense be changed to provide 15% damage reduction, in addition to the healing, whenever Shien or Shii-cho stances are active. Additionally, each tree would have a talent that affects Focused Defense. For tanks, the Inner Peace talent would, in addition to its current talent effects, would remove the activation cost of Focused Defense, increase threat by a moderate amount (instead of decreasing), and provide two seconds of knockback (not full CC) immunity while Soresu stance was active. For Vigilance, the Commanding Awe talent would, in addition to its current talent effects (minus the 15% damage reduction effect,) remove the healing cost (the 1 focus per second) of Focused Defense and removes all negative effects (DOTS, snares, explosive probe, roots, etc..) For Focus, the Through Peace talent would, in addition to its current effect, would decrease the cool down of Enure by 30 seconds and increase the amount it heals for by 10% or 15%.

 

Making these changes to Focused Defense would solve a lot problems. Tanks would have an easier time gaining and maintaining threat, Vigilance wouldn't sacrifice nearly as much DPS to dump threat and would have a way to combat roots, and Focus would gain the short cool down, general purpose defensive that it needs, in addition to having an equivalent to the Guarded by the Force cool down reduction talent.

 

Saber Reflect

The only major change outside the Focused Defense change that I see being needed is changing Saber Reflect to ignore defenses, the Guardian's and his or her attacker's. Tanks shouldn't be punished for having a high defense rating.

 

Vigilance:

The main thing that Vigilance needs is a group utility ability or debuff. My main goal for the suggested changes is to increase Vigilance's PVP damage, mobility, or usability. There will be some suggestion that will increase PVE damage as well, but my main goal for PVE is to suggest a group utility. However, there are some talents that are fairly lackluster or are too RNG based. Let's look at those first.

 

Accuracy:

This talent is fairly straightforward and does help Vigilance out. However, it is very lackluster when you compare it to the accuracy talents of most other classes. For example, a Commando's accuracy talent not only increases accuracy by 3%, but it increases armor penetration of Full Auto and High Impact Bolt by 30%. Vanguards, Shadows, Sages, and Scoundrels also have extra effects on their accuracy talents.

 

Therefore, I propose that Vigilance's accuracy talent also receive additional effects. However, I'm not exactly sure what it should be. Some suggestions would be: 30% increased armor penetration for Masterstrike, 3% alacrity (I'd prefer something else, but it's an idea,) 6% increased melee critical chance, etc.

 

Defiance:

I generally like this talent. However, I also feel that knockbacks should generate focus as well.

 

Gather Strength:

Gather Strength is an "okay" boost to damage, but is far too circumstantial and the buff duration is too short to be of any great value. I suggest that it be returned to its old 5% / 10% per stack model and include all CCs, knockbacks, snares, and roots to what gives stacks. This would include giving stacks when Unremitting is active to further punish players who use control abilities on Unremitting. Additionally, Gather Strength's buff duration would be increased to 20 seconds instead of the current 10.

 

This change would give PVP Vigilance players a decent boost in mobile damage while not effecting PVE damage output by any substantial means.

 

Narrowed Focus

This talent nearly useless. In PVE, AOE damage is mostly avoidable, and in PVP Vigilance has much better ways to consistently gain greater amounts of focus. This talent needs to be reworked or replaced.

 

This would be a great place to add a 30% AOE damage reduction talent to Vigilance. Every other middle tree melee spec has some sort of AOE damage reduction talent, with the exception of Scrapper. Additionally, Vigilance is usually more in the middle of fights than the other melee middle tree specs. This gives it a greater need for such a talent.

 

Sundering Throw:

This talent is a bit lackluster. The cool down reduction should be 10 seconds instead of 5.

 

Zen Strike:

This talent is the bread and butter of Vigilance. Getting these procs can make or break Vigilance. However, this proc relies far too much on RNG. Additionally, Masterstrike's burst wihout DOTs already rolling can be a bit lackluster, which is a problem in PVP. Therefore, I propose two changes to Zen Strike.

 

First, Zen Strike needs to either have Dispatch also have a 30% chance to proc, or Plasma Brand needs to have a 45-55% chance to proc. Doing either of these would greatly help with RNG factor Zen Strike. Watchman has a similar setup for how it procs its Cauterize reset. Merciless Slash and Dispatch have a 66% chance to proc Cauterize, and Slash has a 33% chance. These numbers would need to be played with a bit, but the amount of RNG reliance that Vigilance has currently is unacceptable.

 

Secondly, the Zen Strike talent should cause all Masterstrikes ticks to apply or refresh Burning Blade and Burning purpose (the Blade Storm and Overhead Slash DOTs) and cause the first ticks to auto crit (that is, the ticks that happen with a Masterstrike tick.) This would help solve a couple issues. First, it would give PVE Guardians a bit of a boost without increasing damage output substantially. Secondly, it would increase burst in PVP and allow DOTs to be setup quicker.

 

Preparation:

This talent is utterly useless in all end game talent. In PVE, you never go out of combat during a boss fight. In rated PVP, Vigilance would be in the main fight and constantly engaged due to taunts, snares, and CC. This talent needs to be completely replaced.

 

This talent is also in a good position to add the group utility talent that Vigilance needs. Therefore, I propose that Preparation be changed to lower the cool down of Force Leap by 3 seconds and Saber Reflect by 15 seconds. Additionally, when Combat Focus is activated the Guardian and all nearby (within 30 meters) ops group members have their alacrity increased by 15% for 10 seconds. This talent would finally give Vigilance the added group utility it needs to stand out. An alacrity boost would help in both PVE and PVP settings, and could be used both offensively and defensively (allow healers to cast faster/regen resources faster.) It would also allow for skilled coordination of burst attacks. An example would be a Vigilance Guardian, Combat Sentinel, and Telekinetic Sage working together. The Guardian could use Combat Focus, Combat Sentinel could use Zen, and the Telekinetic Sage could use Mental Alacrity.

 

I've seen other notable ideas for group utility in PVP such as guard removal or adding trauma to Sundering Strike. However, these would only affect PVP when PVE Guardians have group utility needs as well. I am open to suggestions as to a replacement for the alacrity boost, as long as it is usable in PVP and PVE.

 

Focus:

The Focus tree is fairly straight forward, and doesn't require too much reworking outside of a possible reduction in AOE damage output, but I will go over that in another thread. I already made a suggestion to change the Through Peace talent when talking about Focused Defense. There are a couple other talents that should be looked at as well.

 

Second Wind:

This is a very lackluster talent. A 10% heal every two minutes is not worth two talent points. To make this talent more appealing, it should additionally reduce the cool down of Resolute by 30 seconds.

 

Force Guard:

The 6% force damage reduction is fine, but the focus gained from reflecting force attacks is not. It is way too situational to gain focus that the Focus spec is already swimming in anyways. Instead, Saber Reflect should cause all reflected damage to auto crit.

 

Final Thoughts:

Again this is all my opinion on where the Guardian class is, and where it should go. I feel that if my suggestions go through, the Guardian class would be in an excellent position to be competitive in all content without being overpowered.

[Marb]

Juggernaut side of things seems to mirror the desire to see focus aoe damage be folded into single target and some defensive additions. Rampage proc rate needs to be increased also.

 

Honestly, I would be hesitant to mention anything to do with guardian tanks in PvE, because in comparative terms they are flat out the best tanks in the game at present. Gaining threat on ranged packs and knock-backs are issues all the tanks have to deal with, and we are lucky that we get saber reflect to just cheese a lot of those situations. It would seem sensible to devote the three questions to each spec, but at least on the PvE side of things, that spare question would be better spent on the other specs, or a general PvE/PvP question.

 

If anything, I would want to know what the thought process was when they decided to give us force shroud (saber reflect) and change the guardian damage profile to rival powertechs.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Marb

[Ren_simp]

I mostly play vigilance in pvp I feel its in a good place atm with that said I would like to see plasma brand changed to a cleave attack hiting upto 3 players Placing the dot on each aswell as the initial damage

 

Getting to focus why do you feel that the aoe needs to be toned down I think that its damage is in the right place

Inline with other high damage specs 7-10k crits are seen by most class spec whether single target or aoe Or have other ways to acheive similar burst.

 

All in all guardians are in a great position im really enjoying the class

 

Good luck representing the class

Edited August 1, 2013 by Ren_simp

[Aelaias]

The only way focus should be nerfed is if guards and healers are nerfed concurrently. I hate the spec personally but thats about the only thing that works for focusing a guarded healer.

[Kitru]

If anything, I would want to know what the thought process was when they decided to give us force shroud (saber reflect) and change the guardian damage profile to rival powertechs.

 

The first was that they recognized that none of the Jedi classes had the almost archetypal "weaponized deflection" capabilities. The relative *strength* of said weaponized deflection that they provided is questionable in its origin (especially as to why Saber Reflect works on stuff like a giant ball of Telekinetic Energy or a grenade) but the actual intent/thought process on the ability itself is relatively straightforward.

 

The change to the Guardian damage profile was a combination of two things: the need to rebalance Guardians around shields affecting F/T K/E attacks in addition to M/R (their high Defense and low Shield/Abs would mean that they would take substantially more damage than either of the other tanks from those sources) and the need to drastically improve Guardian Slash (which, personally, I think they made *too* awesome because it's got every imaginable thing that it *could* have attached to it: Riposte proc, additional DR, high threat, high damage) to kill any suggestions of hybrid specs. The fact that they decided to use damage reduction exclusively rather than increasing the Shield/Absorb that Guardians got likely stems from a desire to keep Guardians away from the hybrid spec and its 4% additional DR (though the changes they did to deep Defense tree with the threat/CD reductions and CD improvements would probably have done that on its own) while simultaneously being the first thing everyone thinks of when talking about buffing mitigation.

 

My best is that it was a combination of simplicity, a lack of thought concerning alternate methodolgies, insufficient analysis (the devs have explicitly stated that they have no analytical tools for determining or balancing spikiness), and conscious-or-unconscious preferential treatment (since the devs that play tanks all play Guardian tanks). They *needed* a change to their incoming damage profile to adjust for the changes to fundamental mechanics. The manner they chose to implement that change in is the questionable part.

[Andrew_Past]

The only way focus should be nerfed is if guards and healers are nerfed concurrently. I hate the spec personally but thats about the only thing that works for focusing a guarded healer.

I understand this train of thought, but it follows faulty logic. Just because healing is overpowered at the moment, doesn't mean you should have a DPS spec be overpowered to compensate it. The only other alternative to decreasing Focus's AOE damage is to buff other specs' single target damage to Focus damage output levels. That would be an even worse nerf to Focus than what I have in mind.

[UncleOst]

I understand this train of thought, but it follows faulty logic. Just because healing is overpowered at the moment, doesn't mean you should have a DPS spec be overpowered to compensate it. The only other alternative to decreasing Focus's AOE damage is to buff other specs' single target damage to Focus damage output levels. That would be an even worse nerf to Focus than what I have in mind.

 

Hmm, to compliment your train of thought ( just a geuss ), would be to retain all of smash's dps potential.....

 

.....but instead of the existing 360 degree damage field, make smash a forward directional 180 degree cone. It is a simple solution, and would constitute greater skill/awareness from the users. (Using the old "overload" animation would rule).

 

This isn't my favorite solution, but one that would definitely adjust the numbers.

[Marb]

...Guardian Slash (which, personally, I think they made *too* awesome because it's got every imaginable thing that it *could* have attached to it: Riposte proc, additional DR, high threat, high damage) to kill any suggestions of hybrid specs.

 

That ability has to have one of the most ridiculously lengthy tooltips in the entire game. I wish they would break out a lot of those functions and pin them on to other abilities, because atm its just a wonder button. I wouldn't mind it being a simple high threat cleave attack that does more damage on targets with armor reduction. Target centric aoe's just feel awkward.

 

Giving riposte a guaranteed activation is cool to get the defense buff rolling, but feels excessive on every single Guardian Slash (this ability just does too many things). Maybe it should just proc off force leap, and make Guard and Thrust a riposte cooldown reduction that procs from a defense event.

 

Back to what you were saying, how can guards get back some of their tanking identity? I was brainstorming an idea about making saber reflect a channeled ability, which would fit the theme of the class a bit better (standing ground for an attack rather then dodging it, or for the juggernaut he would absorb the attacks with his hand darth vader style).

Edited August 1, 2013 by Marb

[Kitru]

Back to what you were saying, how can guards get back some of their tanking identity? I was brainstorming an idea about making saber reflect a channeled ability, which would fit the theme of the class a bit better (standing ground for an attack rather then dodging it, or for the juggernaut he would absorb the attacks with his hand darth vader style).

 

Change Saber Reflect to only work on melee and ranged attacks and have it apply to all of them. It gives Guardians a very specific niche: the awesome anti-melee/ranged tank, and it makes a lot more sense to be able to push someone's vibrosword back into their face than it does to play baseball with telekinetics.

 

Get rid of the +DR from Guardian Slash and replace it with some measure of Shield or Absorb. Do the same with Guard Stance (I would recommend doing Absorb with Guardian Slash and Shield with Guard Stance). I would recommend something like 5% Shield on Guard Stance and 10% Absorb on Guardian Slash, though that's off of the top of my head rather than doing the math.

 

Keep the Riposte proc on Guardian Slash. It's not needed while tanking but is instead needed for offtanking situations when you're not going to have the Riposte proc naturally.

 

All of this would provide Shadows with their anti-F/T niche once again while once again turning the VGs into the stable tanks and giving Guardians a spikier profile with a niche of their very own. I'd also like to see the CDs on Saber Ward and Warding Call rolled back to their previous numbers but that's less about "unique identity" and more about explicit balancing.

[irojoz]

OKAY THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A PVP QUESTION or PVE. Maybe the optional 3rd question?

Can we get the devs to change the walking animation with the lightsaber out. Like i want to look tough in rateds but that is not possible with the way i hold my lightsaber and run with it.

okay and yea buff vigi

[Riivan]

Overly wordy post as always.

 

A). Go post on your own class' boards, the guards are doing just fine without you.

 

B). Guard tanks are in a good place. There is nothing from a pve perspective that I would add or take away. Our damage profile is fine, our mitigations are fine, our threat generation is fine and our utility to a raid is fine. Leave 'em be. I am quite tired of Shadow tanks who before 2.0 were beyond op compared to the other 2 classes ************ because now they're not the top anymore. They now have to do what every tank should do and what every other tank was doing before. I don't doubt that Shadows need some love, but nerfing everyone else isn't the answer. Every tank should be able to do every bit of content, no niches.

 

C). I appreciate your State of the Guardian Address and feel that you have your finger on the pulse of what Guards need. Keep up the good work and while I fear this is just a PR move, I hope it isn't and you'll help get guards/jugs balanced.

[Moombahcore]

Saber reflect needs a better visual effect to be noticable. When your in games with increasing amounts of lethality and madness etc. The buff debuff bars have like 20 things on them constantly moving, its a little unrealistic to constantly be looking for 1 icon when every other class has gotten a clear visual effect added, Just like hydraulics did for PT before they made it class wide.

 

Its just unrealistic for the current speed of the game. It would also bring more skill to the use of the ability.

[uriaces]

They are good ideas in your post. Now im part of the top 4 guardian dps ( 2924 on OP dummy) and i think that they must change the proc of master strike.

 

I don't want to earn 100 dps with a patch; i just want to do the same dps on each tries. You know, some times, between 2 tries on a boss, there is difference of 200/300 dps because i don't have my master strike proc! In HM opé it's ok, but in Nightmare opé it's realy anoying.

 

I think it's stupid to have just 30% chance to cast THE FIRST DPS SKILL of the vigi' spec. If you can"t cast youre firts damage source , you can do nothing !!

 

As i said before, i don't want to earn 100/200 dps but i just want that my dps depend of MY PERSONAL SKILL and not of a proc....!!!

 

For me that the only thing to change on the vigilance guardian, he's powerfull and don't need more power or maybe just more damages on the dots of the blade storm but it's optional.

[Marb]

Change Saber Reflect to only work on melee and ranged attacks and have it apply to all of them. It gives Guardians a very specific niche: the awesome anti-melee/ranged tank, and it makes a lot more sense to be able to push someone's vibrosword back into their face than it does to play baseball with telekinetics.

 

That would make sense. With this change to Saber Reflect, and depending on what the devs intentions are with anti F/T tank cooldowns, Blade Turning could be changed to instead be 100% resist instead of giving 100% M/R defense chance (In addition to placing the Saber Ward cooldown back at 3mins). This would keep the anti F/T tool while tying it down to Saber Ward would mean you would have to blow a 3min cooldown to block that incoming F/T attack. Along with this I would expect VG's to get some temporary F/T damage reduction on their riot gas.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Marb

[Kitru]

A). Go post on your own class' boards, the guards are doing just fine without you.

 

I actually *have* and *play* a Guardian tank, so I think I'm fully entitled to posting here. Just because I spend most of my time on the Shadow forums doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to go anywhere else.

 

I do find it more than a bit hypocritical for you to tell me to stop posting here when you felt compelled to come start **** on the Shadow forums and got butthurt in the process.

 

By the way, when I posted here, I didn't say *anything* about Guardian performance. I specifically explained the most likely reasoning behind Saber Reflect and the changes to the Guardian damage profile. It was only after I was *prompted* that I responded about Guardian performance at all. In fact, you'd have a hard time explaining how I suggested anything approaching a nerf to Guardians except as an afterthought.

[UncleOst]

Change Saber Reflect to only work on melee and ranged attacks and have it apply to all of them. It gives Guardians a very specific niche: the awesome anti-melee/ranged tank, and it makes a lot more sense to be able to push someone's vibrosword back into their face than it does to play baseball with telekinetics.

 

LoL, if you look at the lore behind lightsabres deflecting blaster bolts, or re-channeling force energy...you'll begin to appreciate what said ability does in game. It was the next evolution from soresu. Sabre reflect is absolutely fine, and if it reflects anymore damage it will be nerfed beyond comprehension.

 

Get rid of the +DR from Guardian Slash and replace it with some measure of Shield or Absorb. Do the same with Guard Stance (I would recommend doing Absorb with Guardian Slash and Shield with Guard Stance). I would recommend something like 5% Shield on Guard Stance and 10% Absorb on Guardian Slash, though that's off of the top of my head rather than doing the math.

 

LoL, you are asking for too much.

 

Keep the Riposte proc on Guardian Slash. It's not needed while tanking but is instead needed for offtanking situations when you're not going to have the Riposte proc naturally.

 

All of this would provide Shadows with their anti-F/T niche once again while once again turning the VGs into the stable tanks and giving Guardians a spikier profile with a niche of their very own. I'd also like to see the CDs on Saber Ward and Warding Call rolled back to their previous numbers but that's less about "unique identity" and more about explicit balancing.

 

I commented in red for the points that were interesting to debate.

[Aelaias]

I commented in red for the points that were interesting to debate.

 

You are disparaging, not commenting.

 

Also, it is my opinion that class balance cannot be considered without considering the overall effect on game balance.

[Aelaias]

Saber reflect needs a better visual effect to be noticable. When your in games with increasing amounts of lethality and madness etc. The buff debuff bars have like 20 things on them constantly moving, its a little unrealistic to constantly be looking for 1 icon when every other class has gotten a clear visual effect added, Just like hydraulics did for PT before they made it class wide.

 

Its just unrealistic for the current speed of the game. It would also bring more skill to the use of the ability.

 

Really? Sniper/gs has an issue with taking any damage at all from the archetype?

[Capt_Beers]

The first was that they recognized that none of the Jedi classes had the almost archetypal "weaponized deflection" capabilities. The relative *strength* of said weaponized deflection that they provided is questionable in its origin (especially as to why Saber Reflect works on stuff like a giant ball of Telekinetic Energy or a grenade) but the actual intent/thought process on the ability itself is relatively straightforward.

 

 

I always laugh when I imagine my Merc punching himself in the face when I hit a guard/Jugg with Rocket Punch while they have Saber Reflect up.

[UncleOst]

You are disparaging, not commenting.

 

Also, it is my opinion that class balance cannot be considered without considering the overall effect on game balance.

 

You are wrong on the first point.

 

You are amusing on your second point. It's basically like saying..." In my opinion, 2+2=4. So therefore we must consider my opinion, as a worthy consideration." <=== this may be "considered" a "disparaging comment".

Edited August 1, 2013 by UncleOst

[irojoz]

Does anybody else want a different stance while holding the lightsaber

[theJediMaste]

Does anybody else want a different stance while holding the lightsaber

 

I know I do,the current one is kinda stupid,tbh.

[irojoz]

I know I do,the current one is kinda stupid,tbh.

 

I know the class needs some tweking but cant this issue be the 3rd random question ;(

[Maelael]

On rateds:

 

I can't fully agree that they won't take Guardians/Juggs who can DPS spec. In situations where you only need one tank, or you need to increase DPS to get past their tanks and 3-4 healers, respec and regearing for Focus or Vigilance is important. If anything, depending on style, its a preferred 8th slot or even a second melee DPS slot if you have a core Sent/Mara already.

 

On Focused Defense:

 

One, I would suggest 20%. But, only gives it in Vigilance and Focus (Make it 3+ steps up in the tree somewhere, or part of the form). This puts it on par with Rebuke.

 

My issue with adding it across the board is Defense already is absolutely ridiculous as is, and when you compare it t the other tanks it's a lol factor. I 100% agree that Focus definitely needs a tiny bit more survivability (not too much, I see the balance of Guardian vs Sent being in that Sent focus is more tanky, but less damage potential), and vigil isn't too bad - but it needs something extra. 20% DR from Focused defense in Vigil and Focus would be fine and not too horrible.

 

On Focus:

You're right, second wind is a crap waste of points for what it gives. Force guard is Meh, but better than nothing.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd expect the Juggs/Guardians to do LESS damage in focus than Maras/Sents, but be more tanky. Yet the opposite seems to be true in PvP. Of course, a lot of things in terms of sense with the classes don't happen in this game, I guess thats intended?

[Ottoattack]

On rateds:

 

I can't fully agree that they won't take Guardians/Juggs who can DPS spec. In situations where you only need one tank, or you need to increase DPS to get past their tanks and 3-4 healers, respec and regearing for Focus or Vigilance is important. If anything, depending on style, its a preferred 8th slot or even a second melee DPS slot if you have a core Sent/Mara already.

 

On Focused Defense:

 

One, I would suggest 20%. But, only gives it in Vigilance and Focus (Make it 3+ steps up in the tree somewhere, or part of the form). This puts it on par with Rebuke.

 

As a Rage Jugg player no... On top of very high base armor, multiple defensive skills this will put rage/focus way over the edge. Yes, focus sentinels have better overall survivability, but they do not have taunts, or the ability to jump to allies increasing their armor or aoe slow. Add a slight damage advantage per smash to Jugg. Needless to say, Jugg compared to other dps classes, excluding marauder, probably tops survivability right now.

 

A possible change to enrage defense that is reasonable is making it not costing focus/rage.

 

My issue with adding it across the board is Defense already is absolutely ridiculous as is, and when you compare it t the other tanks it's a lol factor. I 100% agree that Focus definitely needs a tiny bit more survivability (not too much, I see the balance of Guardian vs Sent being in that Sent focus is more tanky, but less damage potential), and vigil isn't too bad - but it needs something extra. 20% DR from Focused defense in Vigil and Focus would be fine and not too horrible.

 

Vigelence issues are burst damage and staying on target, not defensive capabilities.

 

On Focus:

You're right, second wind is a crap waste of points for what it gives. Force guard is Meh, but better than nothing.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd expect the Juggs/Guardians to do LESS damage in focus than Maras/Sents, but be more tanky. Yet the opposite seems to be true in PvP. Of course, a lot of things in terms of sense with the classes don't happen in this game, I guess thats intended?

You are totally correct. But switching seems as too much work and may create issues with other trees both classes have. Probably leaving it as is now is the best option.

 

My responses are in red above.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Ottoattack