Not so advanced PVP

[Foambreaker]

You forget one rule:

 

Tanks, get a real spec

[bsbrad]

Tanks are perfectly viable in WZs, they just need a good healer behind them. A PT in my opinion makes a better all rounder than either a sin or Jug for most of the WZs. The Sins and Jugs shine in certain WZs but the PT is above average on all. It is a shame the scoreboards don't always reflect how important tanks are.

 

Typically when playing WZs with my guildies (I usually solo queue due to the times that I am online) I go in a healer and another goes in as a tank and unless 5-6 ppl are focusing on one of us neither of us will die during the WZ. It also allows me to go to the other node knowing that if I get a shout from him I can get back and heal him in time without him dying.

 

Just like a good PVE Ops team, a balanced strat in PVP would be to take 2 healers (1 Operative and 1 other), 2 tanks (preferably a merc and sin, the sin can switch to DPS if needed on VS/Huttball), 4 DPS (typically 1 Mara, 1 Sniper, 2 others)

 

Very rarely do you get the chance to try out a balanced strat as in PUG matches you cannot depend on the matchmaking system and in rated matches most people prefer to play their mains which forces a team composition not suitable for a balanced PVP team.

 

For most PVP players the choice becomes do you want to win the WZ or try to inflate your numbers, it is rare nowadays that I top the leaderboards as I spend most of my time moving between objectives on my operative or coordinating a kill on an enemy healer (if a person is marked please focus them, rarely will you ever be focusing the tank). Occasionally I may go for records as I did a couple of weeks ago with the most killing blows but for the most part winning the WZ is more important to me.

[Foambreaker]

Tanks are perfectly viable in WZs, they just need a good healer behind them. ....

 

Exactly, without a healer they cannot do anything useful.

 

Defend a node? Not without a healer, any DPS can kill a healer-less tank, and if all you have is tanks and healers you won't take nodes in the first place.

 

Run the Hutt ball, like I said, "useful", should not be running the Hutt ball in the first place.

 

The only tank class that was ever viable in PvP in any game was the Warrior in LK WoW and only then because they had so many stuns and interrupts they could kill healers; and that only worked with BiS gear.

[bsbrad]

I agree that going in as a tank doing solo-queuing is a bit of a waste of time unless you get lucky with the matchmaking system and get one of the approximately 10 good PVP healers still around.

 

The point of tanks defending a node is to stall the other team long enough for reinforcements to arrive (assuming they bother to type inc). A tank in the middle of a slugfest can be the difference in turning the battle also as they can taunt down the DPS, use their guards wisely and prevent capping as most tanks have AOE abilities on a short CD.

 

The downside of being a tank is that you are not rewarded with votes at the end as people generally look for healers, objective points, highest DPS first but if I had a choice between taking a mediocre tank or a good DPS I would take the tank. I am fairly lucky in that the tanks in the guild I am in know how to PVP and what their roles are so when I go in (with one of them) as a premade my job becomes a lot easier.

[Maelael]

Exactly, without a healer they cannot do anything useful.

 

Defend a node? Not without a healer, any DPS can kill a healer-less tank, and if all you have is tanks and healers you won't take nodes in the first place.

 

Run the Hutt ball, like I said, "useful", should not be running the Hutt ball in the first place.

 

The only tank class that was ever viable in PvP in any game was the Warrior in LK WoW and only then because they had so many stuns and interrupts they could kill healers; and that only worked with BiS gear.

 

Man you play with/against a lot of crappy tanks. Unfortunately, so do I. Thankfully there is about 5 on each side that are good.

 

I agree that going in as a tank doing solo-queuing is a bit of a waste of time unless you get lucky with the matchmaking system and get one of the approximately 10 good PVP healers still around..

 

This about hits the nail on the head, and why my PvP tank became an alt. Believe it or not I kinda follow around you, and a few others when you're on your healers and Im on my tank. You guys actually know what to do heal wise and how to receive peels*.

 

There is honestly more than 5 on each side (and more than 10 pvp healers), but they mostly hide unless it's ranked, or they spec DPS or play alts it seems. I seriously don't blame them.

 

*Receiving peels is a lost art. Even on my DPS toons when I peel with the meager amount of CCs I have, healers seem to just run off, hide, and pretty much do nothing instead of heal up. I'm like, super in love if the damn healers know how to stay within guard range, let alone the rest of the aspects...

Edited August 7, 2013 by Maelael

[bsbrad]

*Receiving peels is a lost art. Even on my DPS toons when I peel with the meager amount of CCs I have, healers seem to just run off, hide, and pretty much do nothing instead of heal up. I'm like, super in love if the damn healers know how to stay within guard range, let alone the rest of the aspects...

 

I try my best on my operative it is much easier to stay in range as I can run circles around most DPSers and still heal at almost full effectiveness, on my sorc I am little more dependent on the tank staying in range of me rather than the other way round.

[Foambreaker]

...

The point of tanks defending a node is to stall the other team long enough for reinforcements to arrive (assuming they bother to type inc). ...

 

Stalling till he dies, then the node is lost, whereas a DPS might actually win the 1v1; with a tank you have to send at least one to back him up even with 1 inc, which leaves the rest of the team 6v7.

 

As far as "preventing an enemy from clicking a node" that can be done by any spec; as can peeling.

 

The most useful thing tanks do is occupy terribad pugs, most other people don't beat on tanks, they are like a rock, harmless unless thrown.

[bsbrad]

A good tank can hold a node against 2 or 3 DPSers for a long time, and if they are fighting against 1 eventually the DPS will win (assuming they know how to CC at the right time) but by that time the other nodes will be captured and the DPS will be overrun.

 

You obviously don't play with very good PVP tanks who know their classes and more importantly the enemy classes. Most of the DPSers do not know how to effectively kill a tank in time, as they typically open with their highest bursty attacks which the tanks expect and can be nullified easily or they use simple rotations like Smash spec which are predictable and can be dodged.

 

Just like tanks if a DPSer doesn't have a competent healer behind them they will fall quickly too (in the DPS case a lot quicker unless they are running some hybrid tank spec, a la Zu, or are one of the few marauders/sents who know when to use their cooldowns, a la Wrecks). The amount of DPSers who think they can solo a node and get a shock when they can't is funny, even on my sniper unless the defender is caught completely by surprise and doesn't know how to react it takes me awhile to take down a tank.

 

The days of stealth (1v1) caps against competent teams are all but over hence the reason why a lot of high level PVP has turned into turtlefest and comes down to who caps first (CW), who kills the most (NC, AHG, VS) or who protects their ball carrier the most (HB).

 

When you have a competent team against an incompetent team they get swept and is the reason I made this thread to give people a heads up on what to expect. Now I admit I am nowhere near the best player in any of the classes that I PVP with but the above insights can hopefully be useful to people who have not had as much experience PVPing as me, or people who don't know what the other classes typically do.

Edited August 8, 2013 by bsbrad

[gocard]

Yesterday was a really frustrating night of PVP. Nabi mentions this, and I can't stress it enough, don't overcommit. Use your map and see who is heading to help defend a node. If enough guys are there or headed there, don't go. Or even if you get there first (or are headed there first), and another teammate is going to cause an overcommit, be the bigger man and turn around and go back. Don't commit more than plus one the opposition number. If your teammates seem to have the edge in battle, just have even numbers as the opposition there.

 

And when the fight is winding down (for example, you've whittled down a 4v4 to 4v2), whatever number the current mismatch is (minus one, possibly) is the number that should start heading to the other node before those last guys are killed, especially if it's the closer node for the opposition (south, mid, left/right door).

 

Yesterday felt particularly bad in these respects.

Edited August 8, 2013 by gocard

[Foambreaker]

...very good ..

 

Don't bother with that whole very good thing, a very skilled DPS will take a very skill TANK apart the moment that tanks cool downs end.

 

Making in-equal comparisons proves nothing, 3 DPS beating on tank? All that proves is all the DPS are bads

[Aliensorigin]

I seriously an bothered by the fact you think 1 dps should win against 1 tank, this is so very not true, not to be rude but its possibly a l2p issue, because we don't have very many "skilled" tanks on BC.

 

Any good tank should be able to solo the very best of dps (with the acception of a sniper, or possibly an extremely good arsenal merc). And even then just use saber reflect (if your a guardian) or force shroud when they use there exploding probe thingy or there heat seeking missiles, and interrupt the tracer spammers >.>

Edited August 8, 2013 by Aliensorigin

[taxidermis]

I agree that tanks are awsome node holders. The secret is to know the other classes. Don't blow all your CDs at once. When I as a dps try to ninja, I open with a high damage burst, hoping that the tank will blow all CDs. Then I stealth out, wait for the dps reinforcement to leave and hit the tank hard while most of his CDs are still not ready. As a Tank solo defending, I space my CDs out and call the instant I'm attacked. When done right, a tank can hold a node against 2 to 3 dps just long enough for help to get there. Powertechs shoulder cannon is also one if the greatest node defending tools ever. Stand right on the node , load it when u get attacked. Use hydraulic overrides, toggle adrenaline rush so it's ticks when u hit 30. First mezz, use cc breaker, pop shield. Second mezz, usually a long cc, sit there and giggle as u break their caps with shoulder cannon. When u come up, pop wz adrenal and medpack. By that time help should be there.

[Aliensorigin]

Exactly what taxi said, all you gotta do is know your enermy a class, and space your cooldown out, use saver ward 1 second before last tick of ravage or ambush or anything white text that really hurts and let your 100% defence chance slap them in the face >.> or saber reflect when you are bout to get hit with ambush or heat seeking missiles or discharge or project and so on, and shroud, saber deflection, diversion for gunnery commandos,, you get the points it's about knowing the class your fighting and using what you need at the perfect time, I mean I have soloed a sniper in bout 3 seconds as a tank, just use saber reflect 0.5 seconds before ambush finishes and let his rotation kill him >.>

[bsbrad]

The easiest way I remember the differences between the classes and who are each others foils are to place them in a rock->paper->scissors metaphor.

 

Tanks = rock

Healers = paper

DPS = Scissors

 

if you have 2 people of equal skill facing off in a PVP matchup, the Tank should beat the DPS, the DPS should beat the Healer and the Healer should beat the Tank. This is assuming perfect balance between the classes which as we know some classes are a little disproportionate for their role, e.g. Operative Healers, Smash bombers, Hybrid snipers etc...

 

For each AC there are 3 trees to spec into and assuming no hybrids we get roughly:

 

Sniper/GS: 1 Bursty, 1 AOE, 1 DOT tree

Operatives/Scoundrels: 1 Heal, 1 Bursty, 1 DOT tree

Maras/Sents: 1 Bursty, 1 AOE, 1 DOT tree

Jugs/Guardians 1 Tank, 1 Bursty. 1 AOE tree

Sorcs/Sages: 1 Heal, 1 Bursty, 1 DOT tree

Sins/Shadows 1 Tank, 1 Bursty, 1 DOT tree

PTs/Vanguards 1 Tank, 1 AOE, 1 DOT tree

Mercs/Commandos 1 Heal, 1 Bursty, 1 DOT tree

 

this gives us 3 tanks in the form of Jugs, PTs and Sins (ordered in hard rock order), 3 healers Operatives, Sorcs, Mercs (in paper order), and 16 DPS trees (make up your own order here, basically Maras, Snipers at the top)

 

As mentioned in a previous post, in my opinion with the current metagame the PT/Vanguards are the most versatile tanks for the current WZs, the Operative/Scoundrel healers are too OP and therefore invaluable and for the DPS the Snipers/Gunslingers, Maras/Sents and then followed by the rest.

 

Depending on the level of the player behind the keyboard the other classes can shine through and overpower the current metagame especially when we start talking about hybrids.

 

Exactly what taxi said, all you gotta do is know your enemies class,

 

and 100% this

 

TL;DR Tank=rocks, Healers=paper, DPS=scissors

Edited August 8, 2013 by bsbrad

[Foambreaker]

I seriously an bothered by the fact you think 1 dps should win against 1 tank, this is so very not true, not to be rude but its possibly a l2p issue, because we don't have very many "skilled" tanks on BC.

 

Any good tank should be able to solo the very best of dps (with the acception of a sniper, or possibly an extremely good arsenal merc). And even then just use saber reflect (if your a guardian) or force shroud when they use there exploding probe thingy or there heat seeking missiles, and interrupt the tracer spammers >.>

 

When in doubt, dis...

[Darkojin]

Another thing I keep seeing people do in warzones - DO NOT ATTACK SAGE/SORC IN BUBBLE. You are wasting whatever your action pool is, and your time trying to kill them. Soon as you see bubble go up, switch targets and a lot of the time they will instantly drop the bubble. Then you can go back to beating on them. If they don't drop bubble, you at least locked that player out of the fight for the duration.

[Aiax]

 

The only tank class that was ever viable in PvP in any game was the Warrior in LK WoW and only then because they had so many stuns and interrupts they could kill healers; and that only worked with BiS gear.

 

The inaccuracy of this statement actually made me laugh out loud

[SimplyKupo]

Another thing I hate to see is a healer with ZERO freakin damage done. Like... really?! You NEVER had an opportunity to hit an enemy? Stop a freakin cap? NOTHING?! There was always some one dying wherever you were? 100% of the time?! I could maybe believe that on very rare occasions...

 

But overall to me that just says, "I don't really care about winning the wz, I just want top heals."

 

Don't get me wrong, some moments make it really hard to decide what to do and I think I have a bad habit of choosing attack instead of heal when I should heal... but trying to "fix" that problem by NEVER attacking a single person? Fail.

[Foambreaker]

The inaccuracy of this statement actually made me laugh out loud

 

So you can't kill tanks with your either of your 55?

[LaVall]

Another thing I hate to see is a healer with ZERO freakin damage done. Like... really?! You NEVER had an opportunity to hit an enemy? Stop a freakin cap? NOTHING?! There was always some one dying wherever you were? 100% of the time?! I could maybe believe that on very rare occasions...

 

But overall to me that just says, "I don't really care about winning the wz, I just want top heals."

 

Don't get me wrong, some moments make it really hard to decide what to do and I think I have a bad habit of choosing attack instead of heal when I should heal... but trying to "fix" that problem by NEVER attacking a single person? Fail.

 

It always baffles me when I see this as well. Your stuns, grenades, and slows do light damage... so if you do 0 damage you're not using them, which means you're not getting away when attacked. The people that end with 0 damage done always end up with massive damage taken and that's often with a tank guarding and peeling for them. Just between stopping cap and using CC to escape you should get 10k in a regular match. Helping out DPS finish somebody off when everybody's at full health should net you more and contribute to the team.

[Aiax]

So you can't kill tanks with your either of your 55?

 

Wait...I thought we were discussing WoW

[ZooMzy]

Another thing I hate to see is a healer with ZERO freakin damage done. Like... really?! You NEVER had an opportunity to hit an enemy? Stop a freakin cap? NOTHING?! There was always some one dying wherever you were? 100% of the time?! I could maybe believe that on very rare occasions...

 

But overall to me that just says, "I don't really care about winning the wz, I just want top heals."

 

Don't get me wrong, some moments make it really hard to decide what to do and I think I have a bad habit of choosing attack instead of heal when I should heal... but trying to "fix" that problem by NEVER attacking a single person? Fail.

 

This lol. Healers should be relying on stuns and escape tactics to void DPS that are hitting them, where pretty much every single method will result in some form of damage.

 

If there is no damage done, that means there is literally nothing the healer did besides tunnel vision and planted down, with maybe some running. Some DPS classes finish with 0 healing simply because some specs don't have a heal, but there is no excuse for a healer to finish without a single point of DPS. Close match ups would mean the healer would have to peel for themselves, one sided match ups in their favor means they could've contributed more to the team by adding DPS since they wouldn't have to heal much, and one sided match ups where they were getting stomped would mean they would have to peel heavily. Meaning that there isn't a scenario where a dedicated healer would have to hit 0 in DPS unless they were left alone for an entire match, which also shouldn't be happening at the 55 bracket if they are hitting very high numbers xD

[Joritan]

Do you guys really see that very often? I've seen a healer with 0 damage like 3 times, and it's usually those quick 6 - 0 huttball matches where the other team doesn't even have a chance to focus the healer.

[hugofer]

Do you guys really see that very often? I've seen a healer with 0 damage like 3 times, and it's usually those quick 6 - 0 huttball matches where the other team doesn't even have a chance to focus the healer.

 

Its more common now

[SimplyKupo]

Yep yep Jordo, didn't see it much before but lately I have been seeing it a few matches in a row (by different punks too.) It had me totally confused... I didn't know that stuns and slows and all do light damage too. Cripes! That makes it way worse. D: