Not so advanced PVP

[Devinia-Hex]

Flying a kite is normally standing still with a device that is light enough to be picked up by the wind and will stay in the air the more slack you give to the line holding it to you the farther it goes into the air. The Kite isn't trying to catch you and do bad things to you while you run away from it do whatever you can to keep it away. Kind of like trolling has nothing to do with a Troll something that is undead.... they are both words I call interenet speak that someone made up and people on the internet allowed it to become a word that had some meaning.

[Maelael]

Sigh. You youngins.

 

Kiting goes back to the EQ1 days. Where people would slow the mob or use a speed boost, and drag a mob behind them (Ala, a kid dragging a kite behind them on a beach) while nuking or DoTing it.

 

It expanded into a more of a definition from there with "Fear Kiting" and into how we use it today. But that's where it comes from. People put LOS into that category now, along with anything that involves using movement to mitigate or avoid. Until a better word is adopted, its what we have as a catch all that is most likely being misused, but most of us understand what people are getting at.

 

LOS is also a terrible term for how we use it, but its what we've got. Like rap music and video games replacing our education system.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Maelael

[Foambreaker]

the first caveman that kicked the other caveman in the knee and ran like hell was the first kiter, lol, EQ1

[Maelael]

the first caveman that kicked the other caveman in the knee and ran like hell was the first kiter, lol, EQ1

 

Given your comments in these and other threads, I have just one question which may lead to others:

 

Did you live under power lines when you were a kid?

[Foambreaker]

Given your comments in these and other threads, I have just one question which may lead to others:

 

Did you live under power lines when you were a kid?

 

Insulting someone who disagrees with you is a sign of insecurity

[ZooMzy]

Successful kiting it not solely done through LOS. There's a reason it's called kiting. You're keeping distance between yourself and your opponent (like you're flying a kite). The way to get that separation is either by knockback or by having a difference in movement speed, either through CC/roots or by difference in running speed through speed burst or slows.

 

Really, the only time LOS works by itself is if you step behind something because you're getting focused by ranged attackers. Yes LOS is important for kiting knights/warriors/vanguards/PTs since they'll just leap back. But you won't get behind something to LOS without a difference in movement speed.

 

So in reality, you're saying kiting is successful by keeping distance between your opponent? Meaning if the person is focusing you knows what a stun, root, slow, or a knock back is, you aren't going to successfully "kite" them?

 

LoS is effective simply because it actually can not be countered as easily as straight distance and running. It completely breaks ranged DPS output, along with melee DPS with a stun and a 10 meter move around, say, a pillar. Using both of those cases as a healer gives you an immediate window for casts, while your definition of kiting means the healer spends more time running while your team kills them. So if you want to be literal, then I guess you can have the true definition of kiting on your side of the argument.

 

But if you play against a DPS that knows what they're doing, then making anything that isn't an operative attempt to follow your definition of kiting means the enemy DPS are succeeding in their job: stopping the healer from effectively healing. Waste time running, and try to keep an enemy at a distance that knows one of their short defensive CDs negates everything you throw at them as slows or stuns, especially stealth DPSers.

 

And regarding your point about not being able to LoS without movement speed.........wut? You do realize the whole key to healer positioning is to make sure you aren't standing in the open and to go unnoticed, right? Good healers postion themselves out of the way and know there is always something nearby to break LoS. If you need a speed boost to get to something that will LoS, then you probably don't know how to properly LoS.

 

Sigh. You youngins.

 

Kiting goes back to the EQ1 days. Where people would slow the mob or use a speed boost, and drag a mob behind them (Ala, a kid dragging a kite behind them on a beach) while nuking or DoTing it.

 

It expanded into a more of a definition from there with "Fear Kiting" and into how we use it today. But that's where it comes from. People put LOS into that category now, along with anything that involves using movement to mitigate or avoid. Until a better word is adopted, its what we have as a catch all that is most likely being misused, but most of us understand what people are getting at.

 

LOS is also a terrible term for how we use it, but its what we've got. Like rap music and video games replacing our education system.

 

Yeah, to be honest, I just use it as a general term referring to strategy players use when they have the enemy team focusing on them. Didn't really know there was an authority on the matter or even where it came from xD

Edited August 17, 2013 by ZooMzy

[gocard]

So in reality, you're saying kiting is successful by keeping distance between your opponent? Meaning if the person is focusing you knows what a stun, root, slow, or a knock back is, you aren't going to successfully "kite" them?

 

LoS is effective simply because it actually can not be countered as easily as straight distance and running. It completely breaks ranged DPS output, along with melee DPS with a stun and a 10 meter move around, say, a pillar. Using both of those cases as a healer gives you an immediate window for casts, while your definition of kiting means the healer spends more time running while your team kills them. So if you want to be literal, then I guess you can have the true definition of kiting on your side of the argument.

 

But if you play against a DPS that knows what they're doing, then making anything that isn't an operative attempt to follow your definition of kiting means the enemy DPS are succeeding in their job: stopping the healer from effectively healing. Waste time running, and try to keep an enemy at a distance that knows one of their short defensive CDs negates everything you throw at them as slows or stuns, especially stealth DPSers.

 

And regarding your point about not being able to LoS without movement speed.........wut? You do realize the whole key to healer positioning is to make sure you aren't standing in the open and to go unnoticed, right? Good healers postion themselves out of the way and know there is always something nearby to break LoS. If you need a speed boost to get to something that will LoS, then you probably don't know how to properly LoS.

 

 

 

Yeah, to be honest, I just use it as a general term referring to strategy players use when they have the enemy team focusing on them. Didn't really know there was an authority on the matter or even where it came from xD

 

Do you not attack an enemy healer simply because he's standing behind a pillar? Healers WILL get attacked during a warzone. They WILL have to move and reposition constantly. Seriously, have you ever played a warzone against a good team where your healer could sit back and free cast because he was standing behind something? And yes, there are a number of ways to help them escape, and yes, transcendence wouldn't but the first on that list because, you're right, it does have a higher cost than other abilities to help out healers, but it's still on that list. Just like using a grenade on a single target wouldn't be first on my list to assist a capper, I'm gonna do it if that's the best option available to me.

Edited August 17, 2013 by gocard

[bsbrad]

Speed boosts are generally useful in PVP (esp when they affect the group), however as a healer myself I cannot usually rely on the Rauders around me to pop it if I am in trouble so I will usually leave the kiting and LOS'ing to myself.

 

Whether I am on my Operative or Sorc, the key is to know when to use you hard/soft stuns (or grenades) to get you out of tricky positions. If I have a good tank with me and they haven't spotted the aggro I am taking I will kite the attackers to them (if melee) or if ranged will find a way to LOS them yet stay within range of the tank.

 

The key is always know what skills the opposition will use and where able time your stuns/interrupt to stop their highest damage attack, i.e. never show your back to a sin, LOS a sniper when they are using Cull or an Explosive probe is put on you, etc... and also know when to use your own defensive cooldowns, static bubble is your friend if you are a sorc, just like defensive probe if you are an operative.

[ZooMzy]

Do you not attack an enemy healer simply because he's standing behind a pillar? Healers WILL get attacked during a warzone. They WILL have to move and reposition constantly. Seriously, have you ever played a warzone against a good team where your healer could sit back and free cast because he was standing behind something? And yes, there are a number of ways to help them escape, and yes, transcendence wouldn't but the first on that list because, you're right, it does have a higher cost than other abilities to help out healers, but it's still on that list. Just like using a grenade on a single target wouldn't be first on my list to assist a capper, I'm gonna do it if that's the best option available to me.

 

First off, I did not say LoS is going to cause DPS to stop DPSing: I said it was more effective. Simply because you force the DPS to maneuver around obstacles, giving you actual windows for casts, while running away and using ONLY speed boosts can easily be countered through roots, stuns, and even knockbacks (I use my Overload sometimes because even though it knocks them back a few meters, they actually land and stop for a second or two).

 

Situations vary, as I agree, and I also agree that Carnage spec Predation/Transendence is normally going to be a more effective in a WZ (I actually pop it now more because the alacrity boost isn't as much of a help as predation's defensive increases, as I have actually been having trouble finding purpose in my 30 stacks after I survive for longer than 2 minutes). But still, two specs are basic wastes and still, there are more benefits to Bloodthirst, Beserk, etc.

 

Just to reiterate, my point is simple: it's like abandoning a node in Hypergate to grab orbs when you think the enemy team isn't going to send someone to attack it. Sure, you can think that all you want, and even still, you might be able to run into middle, grab orbs, and get back without an attack. It's just, like you put it, not first on my list as the smartest thing to do.

[gocard]

Just to reiterate, my point is simple: it's like abandoning a node in Hypergate to grab orbs when you think the enemy team isn't going to send someone to attack it. Sure, you can think that all you want, and even still, you might be able to run into middle, grab orbs, and get back without an attack. It's just, like you put it, not first on my list as the smartest thing to do.

 

Is that seriously the best analogy you can come up with? The usage and the risk/reward tradeoff isn't remotely close between those two. Let me make a similar analogy: not using a warzone adrenal is like abandoning a node in Hypergate to grab orbs when you think the enemy isn't going to send someone to attack it.

 

The original question was, what are things people can do to help healers. Popping transcendence is on that list. Yes, it's not first, but people should still know it's an option.

 

Using my CC to help out healers is not first on my list for how I want to use CC. First on my list would be to use them for CC cap. Second on my list would be to use them to prevent an enemy healer from healing himself so I can spike him out. Third would be to help out my healer. Just because it's third on my list for uses of CC doesn't mean it's a waste to use CC to help out a healer.

[Bellumpvp]

 

Speed boost as an operative is the only thing I see that working for since they are mobile healers, even if most successful kiting is done by LoS not overall speed. But if you're expecting to successfully kite smart DPS as a sorc, a little speed boost isn't going to save you.

 

That's like saying a DPS sorc shouldn't use force speed to get away from melee dps... You clearly are not smart.

[ZooMzy]

Is that seriously the best analogy you can come up with? The usage and the risk/reward tradeoff isn't remotely close between those two. Let me make a similar analogy: not using a warzone adrenal is like abandoning a node in Hypergate to grab orbs when you think the enemy isn't going to send someone to attack it.

 

The original question was, what are things people can do to help healers. Popping transcendence is on that list. Yes, it's not first, but people should still know it's an option.

 

Using my CC to help out healers is not first on my list for how I want to use CC. First on my list would be to use them for CC cap. Second on my list would be to use them to prevent an enemy healer from healing himself so I can spike him out. Third would be to help out my healer. Just because it's third on my list for uses of CC doesn't mean it's a waste to use CC to help out a healer.

 

Again, you fail to read. I told you that in the situation, it could be useful. However, if you are not a certain spec as a Marauder/Sentinel, it is a waste because you are using 30 stacks to give a single player a speed boost that isn't really a speed boost where it can easily be countered by stuns, roots, and knock backs, instead of using those stacks to create a more beneficial output for the team.

 

My analogy works because simply put, you can do that plan and it works in a given situation. You count 8 enemies at their pylon, your defender can orb collect while someone keeps track of the head count if everyone is battling at the other node. The node gets abandoned, sure, but why worry if you are keeping count of their total team at their pylon?

 

Like you said, not the "top on your list" decision. But if you aren't a certain spec, you shouldn't pop predation at all similar to how you shouldn't abandon a node if the head count of an enemy team in one single area is 7.

 

That's like saying a DPS sorc shouldn't use force speed to get away from melee dps... You clearly are not smart.

 

Sigh.

 

It's not something I consider to be an effective strategy in the long run, no. But that's actually not even close to what I'm saying.

 

I'm saying LoS is more effective than speed, which I can prove with how easy it is to counter basic Force Speed and Predation. Force Speed doesn't cost the user really anything besides two seconds of time, in exchange for a much larger boost in speed away from something. Kind of like a roll where it's an immediate gap creator.

 

And secondly, because LoS is more effective than speed, it is more of a healer failure if they are advising people to waste 30 stacks of Fury for a speed boost that isn't very effective, Carnage Maras/equivalent Sentinel spec being the exception.

 

So do you understand now? Or was that too much for your simple mind to understand?

[colmiak]

give it up guys, you can't read nor are you smart enough to write/read/understand these epics or game mechanics

[Bellumpvp]

Sigh.

 

It's not something I consider to be an effective strategy in the long run, no. But that's actually not even close to what I'm saying.

 

I'm saying LoS is more effective than speed, which I can prove with how easy it is to counter basic Force Speed and Predation. Force Speed doesn't cost the user really anything besides two seconds of time, in exchange for a much larger boost in speed away from something. Kind of like a roll where it's an immediate gap creator.

 

And secondly, because LoS is more effective than speed, it is more of a healer failure if they are advising people to waste 30 stacks of Fury for a speed boost that isn't very effective, Carnage Maras/equivalent Sentinel spec being the exception.

 

So do you understand now? Or was that too much for your simple mind to understand?

 

Well I play a Sage, and every single speed boost or speed reduction helps me in the long run. I use weaken mind debuff to slow them down by 20% (As well as force slow), force wave to knock them out of melee range, and I use my stuns as a last resort. Now LoS is only good if your main objective is to survive, when you run out of LoS as a healer you are most likely leaving your team and/or the objective behind.

 

You need to remember that when DPS get a on a healer their main objective is not to kill you, but to supress your healing. By running out of LoS they do just that. So id prefer the quick speed boost so I can still heal/dps my target, then to simply run out of LoS.

 

Smart DPS will not follow you around like a cat chasing a mouse, but rather wait for you to start healing targets again.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Bellumpvp

[gocard]

give it up guys, you can't read nor are you smart enough to write/read/understand these epics or game mechanics

 

[SnowmanSD]

uhh... why are we fighting again?

*throws party bomb*

[CKHelseth]

uhh... why are we fighting again?

*throws party bomb*

 

It is just the usual Forum PvP. Pointless, raging egos, no good loot and always the same, just like... PvP in game...

 

I just depressed myself

[bsbrad]

Cant we all just get along....

 

quickly runs out of LOS and starts healing myself

[SnowmanSD]

It is just the usual Forum PvP. Pointless, raging egos, no good loot and always the same, just like... PvP in game...

 

I just depressed myself

 

People get too easily mad in this game. I don't think PvP is pointless though. I have fun doing it so to me thats the point.

[ZooMzy]

Well I play a Sage, and every single speed boost or speed reduction helps me in the long run. I use weaken mind debuff to slow them down by 20% (As well as force slow), force wave to knock them out of melee range, and I use my stuns as a last resort. Now LoS is only good if your main objective is to survive, when you run out of LoS as a healer you are most likely leaving your team and/or the objective behind.

 

For starters, your entire rotation above can be easily countered. Ranged DPS will still be able to target you as long as you keep within 30 meters, and melee DPS have multiple methods/CDs to easily counter your slows and stuns. Such as assassins having the 2 second god mode against Force attacks+Force Speed, Warriors/Knights with the leap roots, PTs/Vanguards with Hold The Line/Hydralic Overrides and even Operatives with the roll. So if running around using speed boosts and speed reduction is the main concern over positioning and using LoS even as a DPS, you're focusing on the details rather than the big picture.

 

Secondly, LoS isn't just moving behind a pillar and then coming back out into an enemy's LoS. It's all positioning, forcing the enemy to move and relocate as a ranged or even a melee.

 

A good healer that knows how to LoS wouldn't simply move back and forth into your LoS. They would postion themselves out of your LoS and force you to relocate to continue attacking, which makes your job harder. Yours maybe to suppress the healing, but they can just as easily make your job as hard as you make theirs with the right positioning and forcing DPS to work for damage on them.

 

You need to remember that when DPS get a on a healer their main objective is not to kill you, but to supress your healing. By running out of LoS they do just that. So id prefer the quick speed boost so I can still heal/dps my target, then to simply run out of LoS.

 

See above. Speed is not beneficial by itself in the long run, not even with slows, roots, and stuns considering the fact that you are playing a game of CDs against an attacker where 2 focusing on controlling you = a lost game everytime.

 

Smart DPS will not follow you around like a cat chasing a mouse, but rather wait for you to start healing targets again.

 

Don't see what you're getting at. Smart DPS counter the healer's heals, using interrupts and preventing them from running away. Both have different methods and strats to work with depending on class and bring melee/ranged, but each melee class has a major counter to runners. While positioning and LoS have no easy counter, making them more effective while speed boosts/reductions are a small detail.

Edited August 19, 2013 by ZooMzy

[Foambreaker]

..no good loot ...

 

I miss UO, there is nothing like dry looting your victim for that final emotional ©rush

[Bellumpvp]

For starters, your entire rotation above can be easily countered. Ranged DPS will still be able to target you as long as you keep within 30 meters,

 

I honestly cant understand where you are going with this, I simply gave examples of how speed boosts/reductions help healers immensely. I use speed debuffs religiously, including any other form of movement impairing abilities to escape from dps attacking me.

 

 

You act is if a wall will magically appear in the middle of a warzone, sorry bro that LoS you want is roughly 20meters away from your current location. Goodluck getting to it without using speed boosts xD

 

You are quite the gem Zuhara.

 

playing a game of CDs against an attacker where 2 focusing on controlling you = a lost game everytime.

 

If 2 dps are attacking you

 

One does not simply go out of LoS

[ZooMzy]

I honestly cant understand where you are going with this, I simply gave examples of how speed boosts/reductions help healers immensely. I use speed debuffs religiously, including any other form of movement impairing abilities to escape from dps attacking me.

 

The point I am making is simple: speed boosts are not very effective. As I have told you, in the post above, speed boosts and attempts to slow attackers are easily countered through roots, stuns, slows, and knockbacks. If you are attempting to play the little back and forth game against a DPS by using only speed, you are not playing your role in a WZ. Making it speed boosts by themselves something that wastes time for little to even no gain.

 

You act is if a wall will magically appear in the middle of a warzone, sorry bro that LoS you want is roughly 20meters away from your current location. Goodluck getting to it without using speed boosts xD

 

So you're telling me that you don't position yourself close to a structure you can kite someone around? You stand out in the middle of the open, or something?

 

I can understand maybe if you're say, IE, running from the node back to mid in Hypergate or switching sides, but in all reality, there is always something nearby to get the enemy targeting you entangled up in. My point is the using speed by itself with NOTHING else as a strategy in mind is a waste, as it can easily be countered.

 

Guess what usually happens to ranged DPS/healers that try to sprint to a structure for LoS? They get rooted and stunned to death 90% of the time, where running without a speed boost is nearly just as effective. So thanks for illustrating my point further, as you are showing how ineffective speed boosts are by themselves with your example above.

 

You are quite the gem Zuhara.

 

Indeed I am. There's a reason why I am still a factor in WZs, after all.

 

Speaking of factors, I haven't seen you in the queue. Did you transfer off with some of ASB and ITK?

Edited August 22, 2013 by ZooMzy

[Joritan]

Do you even play a healer? This is starting to remind me of that time you said "jugg tanks are worthless in pve" in general chat, because "they don't have a stance that generates more threat" Edited August 22, 2013 by Joritan

[ZooMzy]

Do you even play a healer? This is starting to remind me of that time you said "jugg tanks are worthless in pve" in general chat, because "they don't have a stance that generates more threat"

 

I actually do, an operative I switch between DPS and healing. It's quite amazing how your positioning can determine if you'll survive or not.

 

You know, if you stand in the back nearly behind a pillar, but enough to peek out and heal? That way, most pugs don't even notice you and if some of them are smart, you immediately have an object to kite people around. It's even better when you have peelers, but if you have to rely only on yourself, roots and weaving around pillars gives me time to even cast the Kolto Injection (Big heal, 1.5-2 second cast in case you didn't know) without someone being quick enough to interrupt it. That's how my survivability comes into play, and since it's all about HoTs and the spam 3k instaheal as an operative, I rarely die when I actually use her to heal.

 

While on the other hand, I can easily see other healers failing because of how easily they present themselves. Standing out in the middle of the open in the back, free casting until you actually put some DPS on them. Then they usually spend so much focus and time on getting away from someone that's countering their slows and roots that they let themselves drop below half health in the first few seconds, not to mention the damage their teammates are taking.

 

So inefficient, and in most cases, so ineffective. The good healers/ranged DPS I see usually kite melee DPS/LoS ranged DPS around objects and move around, using speed boosts as more of a small part in a rotation rather than solely relying on it to save them. The bad ones usually just try to sprint away when they get focused, often wasting their time and effort trying to play the defensive CD game against an attacker when that's exactly what the enemy DPS wants.

Edited August 22, 2013 by ZooMzy