Class Rep is here!

[mfourcustom]

Amazing input so far guys Thanks again for all of it!

So just a reminder over the weekend i'm going to read and reread all of the threads in the Vanguard forums and such and come up with three questions and post them here they should be up by Monday at the latest again once the questions are up I would love to see all the input you guys can throw at me on the questions so we can have the perfect three questions for our first round coming up on the 18th!

 

Thanks again guys.

 

-Banksy

Edited August 2, 2013 by mfourcustom

[Arch_Angel_Gabe]

Wow, great suggestions from everyone. I agree with all of them! (err, most anyway)...

 

I'd like to see the pure specs (tactics and assault) get damage buffs without buffing the hybrid option. I am ok with hybrid existing and being competitive, but right now, it is CLEARLY in the lead by about 300 DPS over Tactics and 400 DPS over assault. From what I gather, as gear gets better the gap will continue to widen!

[Darth_Dreselus]

I may be repeating some issues, so just think of it as agreeing with them.

 

1. More useful def cds fo Tanks

 

2. Is BW happy with current damage, where a hybrid seems to be the highest performing spec yet still quite below some other classes (but still viable)

 

3. Is BW happy with current VG DPS PvP performance, both in terms of burst, survivability and sustained DPS.

 

Sorry for not fleshing these questions out, but I think you know what I mean by them.

[Aelaias]

We are of course coordinating with PT's rep?

[ArenCordial]

Here's some thoughts on Vanguard right now. I've Tanked and done DPS as Assault then the hybrid. Quite frankly I'd love to see the hybrid die and for Tactics/Assault to actually be decent specs again.

 

Anyway...

 

Shoulder Cannon-I'm sorry but I hate this ability. Its annoying and unwieldy. I'd rather it be redesigned where the damage is reduced but it fires X number of time after you make an attack. X being dependent on if you took any talent increasing the missile number. Combine this with Battle Focus and you've got some good potential burst.

 

Adrenaline Rush-Liked the old version better.

 

-Shield-

Riot Gas-Rework so its a better defensive cool down. Rather than only affecting mob accuracy have it a buff centered on the Vanguard raising the VG's defense. This way its useful against mobs and operations bosses.

 

Battle Focus-Alternatively I could see having Battle Focus have a different bonus if you're in Ion Cell that increases defensive stats.

 

 

-Tactics-

Honestly I don't know where to start. Fire Pulse aught to deal more damage but I'll leave this to those that have played it more.

 

-Assault-

Plasma Cell-Give back some but not all of the original damage that the cell used to do.

 

Assault Plastique-Do some decent upfront damage then have it put a debuff on the boss where the Vanguard's burns deal more damage. Between this and a Plasma Cell that deals better damage should help.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ArenCordial

[eatmydeece]

Well i can only attest to playing shield and tactics (was never fond of assault) so i wont go into assault

 

From a tanking perspective we aren't too bad a tank class.....but things could definitely be improved though.

I loved the addition of pulse engine, helps a ton with threat gen.

Shoulder cannon was a bit of a letdown.

It has a 1min cool down from when the last missile is fired and only has 4 rockets for tank tree, it also doesn't do that much damage or increase threat enough to be worth having.

 

- another defensive cool down that is tree specific or rework shoulder cannon, place a perk in the shield tree to make each shot increase either absorb/shield/def for a 3 sec making it a 12 sec defensive cool down or one that be be spread out.

[edit]

- a <30% finisher (every other tank class has one why not us?)

 

 

As for tactics, i rather enjoy the spec. started playing it while leveling through Makeb to speed things up.

IMO some of these could really help the spec perform closer to the other dps classes.

 

- a <30% finisher (during a cut scene we always have a pistol......give us a finisher that uses it )

- make storm a AC ability not just a tank tree ability

- either increase the damage of shoulder cannon or reduce its cool down (or both)

- give a damage increase to fire pulse, for a top of tree ability shouldn't it hit harder? or maybe if it was given a burn added to it? make it more of an incentive to go for a pure tree rather than a hybrid.

Edited August 4, 2013 by eatmydeece

[Kitru]

- Make riot gas able to use on Operation boss's (it seems like a lazy copy of a gunslingers smoke grenade)

 

It *does* work on Ops bosses already.

[eatmydeece]

It *does* work on Ops bosses already.

 

 

shows how much notice i took then

[BARSAL]

I would agree with the most interesting question being whether they plan on implementing a baseline execute move for vanguards for two reasons; number one being vanguards are the only tanks without an execute which clearly means they will do less damage and generate less aggro than the other two tanks, and number two being that an execute would also give the damaging specs the ability to close the dps gap but not make them do more dps than pure damage classes. Also in pvp this would give vanguards some very needed burst damage and finishing power.

 

The only other easy fix for damage issues I can see is a strait damage buff to High Impact Bolt for the vanguard (not commando as well) which would give vanguard tanks another heavy hitting ability to put their moves on par with the other tanks and give the dps specs much needed burst.

[Kitru]

number one being vanguards are the only tanks without an execute which clearly means they will do less damage and generate less aggro than the other two tanks

 

Once you've gotten to the execute range, you've already generated so much threat as a tank that you could stand still and still never have anyone pull aggro. Execute abilities have nothing to do with threat since threat is only a concern for the first 15 seconds of a fight and any enemy that's in the execute range that quickly is *not* something you have to worry about in the least.

 

Secondly, as to damage, VG tanks have the best damage outside of the execute phase since they have only one high threat ability, which is the weakest of all of the high threat abilities, and still maintain the same threat generation as the other tanks. The higher DPS during non-execute is balanced out by the lower DPS during execute.

 

Now, as to whether an execute type ability is needed for VGs, I'm doubtful but, rather than adding a new ability, which is, in my opinion, generally a cumbersome fix to preexisting and well established rotations that already have enough buttons to press, a better option would be to have a talent or baseline functionality that increases the damage done by Stockstrike (a fundamental ability for all VGs) by XX amount against targets below 30% hp. The simplest solution, in my opinion, would be to have it automatically crit (effectively a 47% increase to its damage for DPS specs and a ~37% increase its damage for the tank spec) in the execute range, which provides an equivalent increase to damage during execute as provided by the literal executes.

[Aelaias]

People say that assault plastique is an irrelevant skill past 2.0. In my experience playing assault pre 2.0 I would say that AP is more relevant than before. Previously you could do spectacular deadly fast burst without AP or relying on the dots. Now you need everything you have in PVP to stack the damage for the burst.

 

People didn't complain so much about cleanses because we mostly relied on a single easily reapplied dot, the plasma cell. Now cleanses are a killer to the class' dps. I think part of bioware's reasoning in smacking a dot on plastique was to provide a way for not having to reapply dots immediately after a cleanse to be able to use HIB (in addition to nerfing the burst, of course). They went too far, the dot doesn't need to be that long or do as much damage as it does, the direct damage did not need to be nerfed so much. In any case, when the other 2 dots are cleansed the +30% damage to targets under 30% health skill becomes laughable. I believe that the class should either be immune cleanses to some degree (perhaps fully) or it needs to get an execute ability on a longish cooldown. As it is the dots are too expensive and do too little damage due to long running times and high possibility of being sheared..

[Is-ith]

I have played VG tank since the game started so I do have some bit of knowledge about the topic. In 2.0 VG gained some very needed help however it still didn't totally match up. Also on another note all the classes got 2x the buff we did and that is being modest.

 

VG tanks have been ignored since the start.

 

The VG tank class as I see it and how many others see it is that VG tanks are slow but sturdy and I am totally fine with VG being set up in that way however we are missing the sturdy part.

 

The only thing VG tank has going for it is that we have snares, roots and stuns out the yin yang. Our ability to keep the enemy out of range is our only strength and is easily countered by a well played or half way intelligent player by simply snaring us. Which every class has easily accessible.

 

Now isn't the above paragraph kind of out of place since bw has always stated that the VG has always suppose to be the best mitigation tank not the one with the best control.

 

So if you can form this into one question then that is it lol... Got your work cut out for you.

 

And dont even get me started on how extremely one sided the combat rolling system is. I Mean im sorry but it looks like a 3 year old wrote it... Simple is not better when it comes to this.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Is-ith

[Kitru]

VG has always suppose to be the best mitigation tank not the one with the best control.

 

Actually, it never was and never *has* been intended to be the best mitigation tank. From the very beginning, the design construct behind the VG tank was to have it be the *simple* tank: simple to play, simple to heal (thanks to the smoothest incoming damage profile). In fact, because of this, VGs were always supposed to be the tanks with the *worst* mitigation, which was the balancing factor behind their smoothness.

 

The problem with VG tanks, at the moment, is that Guardians got buffed too much and have stolen the VG schtick of simplicity while providing better utility and packing a better CD suite. Guardians do everything VGs do and more. Rather than fixing VG tanks, the issue is that Guardian tanks need to be fixed so that they're so good that they're stepping on the toes of the other tanks and running around as super simple tanks that are the de facto best tanks.

 

Beyond Guardians getting brought down to a reasonable level and giving VGs back their schtick, the only real issue that needs to be addressed is the lack of an F/T mechanic for VGs, which would address the fact that they've got the *explicit* weakest CD suite. They're *supposed* to have a weak CD suite, but, at the moment, the difference between VGs and Guards/Shads is *way* too massive, especially with the changes to Adrenaline Rush (which made it *way* harder to use such that you really can't use it most of the time you'd want to bring in some self healing) and the significant improvements to the CD suites of the other tanks. Reactive Shield and Riot Gas both got buffed but not *nearly* to the same extent as the other CD suites. To prevent ability bloat, the only really effective solution would be adding some new functionality to an existing ability with the proper CD, like Battle Focus or Riot Gas, that fulfills the needed F/T CD functionality.

 

The basic phrasing for a question to address this would be something like...

 

"Vanguard tanks were designed and intended to be the simple tanks: simple to play thanks to a comparatively easy resource management model and comparatively simple ability interaction and simple to heal thanks to an incredible stable incoming damage profile. With the changes to Guardians, Vanguards no longer because the simplest tanks in *either* sense. On top of that, the improvements to the various tank CD suites widened the gap between the already weak Vanguard CD suite and those of the Shadow and Guardian. Is there any plan to return the original design intent to Vanguards and to address the comparative weakness of the Vanguard tank CD suite, specifically by addressing the lack of an F/T specific CD that, now, only VGs lack?"

 

And dont even get me started on how extremely one sided the combat rolling system is. I Mean im sorry but it looks like a 3 year old wrote it... Simple is not better when it comes to this.

 

I'm curious as to how exactly the two-roll system is somehow one-sided, unless you're referring to crit taking precedence over shield rating. It's, honestly, a *way* better system than what WoW uses since it's impossible to overflow the chart by overstacking mitigation stats and abilities and, normally, gets people annoyed because it's actually *more* complex.

[Is-ith]

Actually, it never was and never *has* been intended to be the best mitigation tank. From the very beginning, the design construct behind the VG tank was to have it be the *simple* tank: simple to play, simple to heal (thanks to the smoothest incoming damage profile). In fact, because of this, VGs were always supposed to be the tanks with the *worst* mitigation, which was the balancing factor behind their smoothness.

 

The problem with VG tanks, at the moment, is that Guardians got buffed too much and have stolen the VG schtick of simplicity while providing better utility and packing a better CD suite. Guardians do everything VGs do and more. Rather than fixing VG tanks, the issue is that Guardian tanks need to be fixed so that they're so good that they're stepping on the toes of the other tanks and running around as super simple tanks that are the de facto best tanks.

 

Beyond Guardians getting brought down to a reasonable level and giving VGs back their schtick, the only real issue that needs to be addressed is the lack of an F/T mechanic for VGs, which would address the fact that they've got the *explicit* weakest CD suite. They're *supposed* to have a weak CD suite, but, at the moment, the difference between VGs and Guards/Shads is *way* too massive, especially with the changes to Adrenaline Rush (which made it *way* harder to use such that you really can't use it most of the time you'd want to bring in some self healing) and the significant improvements to the CD suites of the other tanks. Reactive Shield and Riot Gas both got buffed but not *nearly* to the same extent as the other CD suites. To prevent ability bloat, the only really effective solution would be adding some new functionality to an existing ability with the proper CD, like Battle Focus or Riot Gas, that fulfills the needed F/T CD functionality.

 

The basic phrasing for a question to address this would be something like...

 

"Vanguard tanks were designed and intended to be the simple tanks: simple to play thanks to a comparatively easy resource management model and comparatively simple ability interaction and simple to heal thanks to an incredible stable incoming damage profile. With the changes to Guardians, Vanguards no longer because the simplest tanks in *either* sense. On top of that, the improvements to the various tank CD suites widened the gap between the already weak Vanguard CD suite and those of the Shadow and Guardian. Is there any plan to return the original design intent to Vanguards and to address the comparative weakness of the Vanguard tank CD suite, specifically by addressing the lack of an F/T specific CD that, now, only VGs lack?"

 

 

 

I'm curious as to how exactly the two-roll system is somehow one-sided, unless you're referring to crit taking precedence over shield rating. It's, honestly, a *way* better system than what WoW uses since it's impossible to overflow the chart by overstacking mitigation stats and abilities and, normally, gets people annoyed because it's actually *more* complex.

 

Im sorry when i was saying best mitigation i ment best passive mitgation which is far better than burt imo (obviously if they are set up correctly which BW never does)... And yes VG has always been advertised as best passive mitigation

 

And saying TOR's roll system is good because its better than WoW's is like saying i only killed 5 people so i am a good person because Hitler killed millions.

 

And the point that most people miss about combat roll systems is that people should be able to tank like a mofo and people should be able to be able to dps like a mofo because there is balance... (something most people dont really understand) If u tank like a beast then u should have no damage whatso ever. If you DPS like mad then you are paper... its pretty simple.

 

As far ar the mechanics go most of the best attacks are force/tech so defense is off the table... Also most of the main/best attacks also have some sort of crit increase which pushes shield off the table...

 

Pretty basic argument really i hope i dont have to go into further detail because we are kind of getting off topic.