Marauder class representative questions/discussion thread.

[MarkXXIV]

Carnage spec's procs being random is very irritating in PVP. TBH, marauder is fine as is for PVE, so the question that Gudarzz picks should be a PVP question, and carnage's procs being random is definitely worth a question.

 

Do you think carnage and annihilation are fine as they are in warzone?(besides the random proc of carnage)

What changes If any do you think should be made to either for pvp?

Edited August 2, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Gudarzz]

On this point specifically, Carnage/Combat is preferred for many of the top raiders for NiM as well as many of the top parses on TORParse. (There are examples where Annihilation/Watchman can also post great numbers on a dummy and in Raids.) It does not seem that the over-reliance on RNG has prevented Carnage/Combat from being used by top players, right? It may make the spec harder to play, and it may mean that you achieve good numbers instead of great numbers when RBG is not in your favor. So is this really an issue?

 

It is an issue in a progression race or even in an everyday operations run when a statistically relevant number of wipes are caused by bad carnage RNG. Just because players continue to play a spec doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it. Ask any top carnage raider (I literally just now asked ElvynFrenzy/Steadfast from Suckafish) and they will tell you about the RNG issues. For every top carnage parse there is an untold story of lackluster dps caused by RNG. The point here is to remove the luck factor and let skill take precedence.

 

Regardless, you can't tell me that RNG isn't an issue when literally every carnage post in this thread suggests otherwise.

[TheCourier-]

Do you think carnage and annihilation are fine as they are in warzone?(besides the random proc of carnage)

What changes If any do you think should be made to either for pvp?

 

Carnage's berserk making masscre cost 2 rage instead of 3 and repairing the RNG issues of carnage spec would make carnage spec fine for PVP.

 

Annihilation almost needs a complete overhaul for PVP. My personal opinion about annihilation is to make the annihilate buff tied to juyo form (1 second per stack of juyo), and make hemorrhage increase bleed damage by 15% (5% per point, which is what hemorrhage did before patch 2.0). Those two things alone would make annihilation work for PVP.

[Lafay]

I like where this thead is going. I have some suggestions on making anni viable in ranked, 1v1, and pug wz.

 

1. Extend duration of annihilation buff or speed up stack gathering

2. Do something about DOT cleansing.

3. This is a biggie that I want all of you to think about and push! Make Agonizing Sabers put a debuff on the healer that not only reduces his healing output by 10% but in turn feeds that back into the marauder! How awesome would that be, They will be healing like crazy but also healing the marauder that is beating the crap out of them! haha OP slaps a 10K heal on the opposing teams tank, then BAM marauder gets a nice 1k heal out of it to help him survive! Anni marauders are supposed to be healers nightmares right? MAKE THEM BE THAT!

Edited August 2, 2013 by Lafay

[JediMasterSLC]

Also, as the vast majority of PvP is done in regz, we should prolly avoid the ranked talks.

 

Um, no thanks Balancing the game more around competitive play than around pug groups is probably a good idea, even if most people don't play ranked regularly, because the competitive sphere is really where class imbalances are going to be made convincingly apparent.

 

Also I can find more people that would disagree with you on that composition, with even vids to prove it, on your composition, than would agree with you (Especially on the DPS Sorc). Truth of the matter is you're more of bringing the player than the class or gear. I can think of two mostly-partisan Guardians I'd bring over several I know in nearly full min max conq to tank for me. *shrug* do whatever comp makes your team click, unless youre on Bastion, then bring three ops for the turtle fest.

 

Yeah, I also disagree on the "1 marauder, 1 sniper, 1 DPS sorc, and 1 powertech (or DPS assassin)" comp. I think that comp is okay, but wouldn't say it's the best. Personally I think a mando/merc DPS is slightly better than a DPS sorc, if you don't count that sorcs are better healers for when you respec. If you do count that, they're probably about even.

 

And no, I dont laugh that the DPS powertech or Sin for 8th slot. That slot is so group and player dependent I wouldn't be surprised at anything in that slot (Besides maybe, a madness sin who refuses to respec).

 

I might laugh if it was a full pyro PT (or madness sin haha), but yeah theoretically an AP or hybrid pyro with oil slick is ok.

 

Annihilation almost needs a complete overhaul for PVP. My personal opinion about annihilation is to make the annihilate buff tied to juyo form (1 second per stack of juyo), and make hemorrhage increase bleed damage by 15% (5% per point, which is what hemorrhage did before patch 2.0). Those two things alone would make annihilation work for PVP.

 

I don't think it needs an overall, mostly just some tweaks. However, making the CD of annihilate easier to lower and stay lowered (with stacks) and reverting the increased dot damage talent 2.0 nerf would probably not quite be sufficient imo. At least a little something needs to be done to prevent or discourage dot cleansing.

[KeyboardNinja]

I've updated the thread on the Sentinel forums with a set of draft questions. Please comment! The winners were Annihilation ramp-up and downtime (an obvious one), Rage single-target sustained damage, and Carnage RNG issues. Close runner-up was Fury not building under Bloodthirst or Predation, but that issue didn't garner enough community interest.

[oofalong]

It is an issue in a progression race or even in an everyday operations run when a statistically relevant number of wipes are caused by bad carnage RNG. Just because players continue to play a spec doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it. Ask any top carnage raider (I literally just now asked ElvynFrenzy/Steadfast from Suckafish) and they will tell you about the RNG issues. For every top carnage parse there is an untold story of lackluster dps caused by RNG. The point here is to remove the luck factor and let skill take precedence.

 

Regardless, you can't tell me that RNG isn't an issue when literally every carnage post in this thread suggests otherwise.

 

ElvynFrenzy just posted two above you and stated in his opinion Carnage is fine in PvE. I find his comments regarding its use in PvP insightful. And, that is how I can say there is not consensus on the RNG issues with the spec.

 

In my opinion, the underlying issue with Carnage in PvP centers on its inability to capitalize on each Gore window. This stems from stuns, knockbacks and inopportune Gore procs (RNG). Based on this, a fix to RNG does not fix the dominant issue with the spec in PvP. Again, that dominant issue is its inability to capitalize on each Gore window.

 

In any event, it's moot at this point as KBN already asked the RNG question. Hopefully, you will consider the issue I identified here as worthwhile enough for a question.

Edited August 2, 2013 by oofalong

[Maelael]

Um, no thanks Balancing the game more around competitive play than around pug groups is probably a good idea, even if most people don't play ranked regularly, because the competitive sphere is really where class imbalances are going to be made convincingly apparent.

 

 

While I like talking about Ranked (although its a joke skill wise on both servers I have active toons on), and ranked play *should* be where optimal talks *should* be centered, we are talking to the company that runs the game. And the vast majority of PvP does not take place in ranked.

 

Ranked play should be considered, but it should not be our focus in terms of balance for the class. Ranked on each server is different (as I am seeing on Bastion vs BC...lulz), and group composition vs what others are fielding is becoming more important than anything individual classes can do (Unless youre the FOTM class, which we semi aren't).

 

Save a few double premade vs double premade regz, what is experienced in Regz is NOTHING LIKE Ranked. At all. Whatsoever. There could be 5 tweaks made for ranked that wouldn't affect Regz (or make some really overpowered crap happen in regz) and that would not have a good impact for BW in terms of results. They have limited time and money to make changes - they have to make it count for everyone or as much customers possible.

 

Both should be considered, with respect to how it impacts both, but especially regz since thats where most PvP takes place.

 

Call me selfish, but sure make Combat more powerful. Just means I can solo more people at nodes in regz (And ranked on BC if the wtfs keep queuing). But I don't think that would be a good idea for the game as a whole.

 

[KeyboardNinja]

ElvynFrenzy just posted two above you and stated in his opinion Carnage is fine in PvE. I find his comments regarding its use in PvP insightful. And, that is how I can say there is not consensus on the RNG issues with the spec.

 

I play Combat in Nightmare Mode content as well. ElvynFrenzy didn't really address the RNG issue, which is certainly a problem that I notice. I mean, it's manageable, but you still see a lot of variation between pulls. The more irksome problem is timing interaction with the ICD, which is brutally tight. On Writhing Horror for example, if I get all the timing right, I can parse almost a 2.9k without touching *any* of the adds, even with all the movement. If I make even a single mistake, my DPS drops to under 2.6k due to the timing of the burrows.

 

In my opinion, the underlying issue with Carnage in PvP centers on its inability to capitalize on each Gore window. This stems from stuns, knockbacks and inopportune Gore procs (RNG). Based on this, a fix to RNG does not fix the dominant issue with the spec in PvP. Again, that dominant issue is its inability to capitalize on each Gore window.

 

Introducing a bit more control over the RNG resolves the inopportune Slaughter proc issue as well as the issue of lacking the Execute proc when Gore comes up (also falling under the heading of inability to capitalize). I feel that stuns and knockbacks are the correct counter to Carnage. Something like a stun immunity during Gore would be unbelievably overpowered, since Carnage would have completely unavoidable burst. Turning Gore into a buff that lasts until damage done (like Acid Blade) is an interesting idea, but still leaves you vulnerable to the main problem (stuns and knockbacks). Basically, Gore as a buff really only addresses the issue of knockbacks between Gore and the very first ability in the window, and that gap should never be more than a few milliseconds (even in PvP).

 

In any event, it's moot at this point as KBN already asked the RNG question. Hopefully, you will consider the issue I identified here as worthwhile enough for a question.

 

I haven't actually asked the questions yet, they're just drafted. Nothing is set in stone. :-) I really would rather have my third question be about the Fury building issue (especially w.r.t. Rage spec), but the community seems to feel more strongly about Carnage RNG.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[oofalong]

I play Combat in Nightmare Mode content as well. ElvynFrenzy didn't really address the RNG issue, which is certainly a problem that I notice. I mean, it's manageable, but you still see a lot of variation between pulls. The more irksome problem is timing interaction with the ICD, which is brutally tight. On Writhing Horror for example, if I get all the timing right, I can parse almost a 2.9k without touching *any* of the adds, even with all the movement. If I make even a single mistake, my DPS drops to under 2.6k due to the timing of the burrows.

 

I would be interested in some more data here. While I believe the range you cite is technically possible, every ability has some variability by design (range in hilt damage), then there is variation caused by crit/surge and finally there is variation caused by inopportune procs (RNG). Holding all else constant, I would be shocked if RNG contributed a 10% swing on its own.

 

 

I haven't actually asked the questions yet, they're just drafted. Nothing is set in stone. :-) I really would rather have my third question be about the Fury building issue (especially w.r.t. Rage spec), but the community seems to feel more strongly about Carnage RNG.

 

When they are set in stone take a picture of it will you? I am literally picturing something like this.

[KeyboardNinja]

I would be interested in some more data here. While I believe the range you cite is technically possible, every ability has some variability by design (range in hilt damage), then there is variation caused by crit/surge and finally there is variation caused by inopportune procs (RNG). Holding all else constant, I would be shocked if RNG contributed a 10% swing on its own.

 

I'll see if I can get you some good dummy parses. I see variation between 3k and just under 2.7k at the farthest extreme. Some of that may be errors on my end, but I'm pretty confident in my ability to execute the rotation at this point. In order to get down to 2.7k, there would need to be some happenings that I could *probably* avoid (e.g. HoJ ICD being very tight on the Precision Slash CD combined with being a little less sharp on timing), but it's still very RNG-driven. The Writhing Horror example that I cited though is simply due to the timing of the burrows. Under ideal circumstances, the boss burrows exactly 2 seconds prior to the natural CD on Precision Slash, which is fantastic since I can just pause, leap and then jump right into the PS window. If I make a tiny mistake though, PS drifts back relative to burrow and I start getting interrupted windows.

 

When they are set in stone take a picture of it will you? I am literally picturing something like this.

 

Willdo. :-)

[TheCourier-]

Yeah, I also disagree on the "1 marauder, 1 sniper, 1 DPS sorc, and 1 powertech (or DPS assassin)" comp. I think that comp is okay, but wouldn't say it's the best. Personally I think a mando/merc DPS is slightly better than a DPS sorc, if you don't count that sorcs are better healers for when you respec. If you do count that, they're probably about even.

 

I don't think it needs an overall, mostly just some tweaks. However, making the CD of annihilate easier to lower and stay lowered (with stacks) and reverting the increased dot damage talent 2.0 nerf would probably not quite be sufficient imo. At least a little something needs to be done to prevent or discourage dot cleansing.

 

I honestly don't see a lot of players cleansing dots. The only dot that I've noticed that I've used that got cleansed intentionally (not with dodge) is force exhaustion, and not everyone does that. I don't see dot protection as an issue. Lethality relies on cull a lot, and lethality's dots are long duration dots (15 and 21 seconds) which are part of the reasons that lethality has dot protection.

 

As for the ranked composition, The Watchmen runs 3 medics some, and sorcerer is far superior to mercenary at healing.

Edited August 2, 2013 by TheCourier-

[Gudarzz]

ElvynFrenzy just posted two above you and stated in his opinion Carnage is fine in PvE. I find his comments regarding its use in PvP insightful. And, that is how I can say there is not consensus on the RNG issues with the spec.

 

In my opinion, the underlying issue with Carnage in PvP centers on its inability to capitalize on each Gore window. This stems from stuns, knockbacks and inopportune Gore procs (RNG). Based on this, a fix to RNG does not fix the dominant issue with the spec in PvP. Again, that dominant issue is its inability to capitalize on each Gore window.

 

In any event, it's moot at this point as KBN already asked the RNG question. Hopefully, you will consider the issue I identified here as worthwhile enough for a question.

 

First, ElvynFrenzy didn't state that Carnage was "fine" in PVE. He was responding to your comment that annihilation can keep up with carnage. He clearly states some problems with carnage. Remember what I told you before, just because someone plays a spec and makes it work, doesn't mean it can't be improved. This entire class rep initiative is about improving our classes.

 

However the lack of utility that Carnage has makes it the less favorable spec to play for progression. However, pvp wise the damage outputs from both specs are hindered by things like stuns and knock-backs equally(unchecked Annihilation and unchecked Carnage are both deadly). Note there are some boss fights that hinder carnage and annihilation equally(losing stacks/gore windows ETC.

 

Second, you state that the true problem is "the inability to capitalize on each Gore window". What do you think causes this inability to capitalize on each Gore window? 1. Bad slaughter procs due to RNG that deny extra gores. 2. Excessive knockbacks/stun. I address both these things in the sample question with ideas provided by the community. You are simply giving another title for what I have already stated. If you feel I am still wrong here, please feel free to provide another source (outside of RNG and knockbacks) that contributes to this inability to take advantage of gore. If we identify another source, it will be added to the final question immediately.

 

I feel that stuns and knockbacks are the correct counter to Carnage. Something like a stun immunity during Gore would be unbelievably overpowered, since Carnage would have completely unavoidable burst. Turning Gore into a buff that lasts until damage done (like Acid Blade) is an interesting idea, but still leaves you vulnerable to the main problem (stuns and knockbacks). Basically, Gore as a buff really only addresses the issue of knockbacks between Gore and the very first ability in the window, and that gap should never be more than a few milliseconds (even in PvP).

 

The idea here is to introduce more skill into countering carnage. A good player should still be rewarded by paying attention to a carnage marauder's buff and stunning appropriately. I want to penalize players that simply knockback/stun on cooldown when a marauder approaches them, providing some layer of protection to gore. As stated above, any buff beyond this, such as cc immunity during gore, would be too overpowered.

[ElyvnFrenzy]

The main issue that i find with all 3 specs is the "penalty" to using predation/transcendence and bloodthirst/inspiration over berserk/zen. The reason for this is because we cannot build fury/centering during this buffs duration. Marauders/sentinels run on fury/centering and seem to pay a price for using buffs to help the group out rather then increase dps for all 3 specs and I don't see this as absolutely necessary even during berserk(especially in carnage/combat and rage/focus) you're losing potential stacks because you have the berserk active. This hurts all the specs and i believe should be addressed above all else.

 

 

Carnage/combat overall has some RNG quirks but for example if they increase execute/opportune attacks proc chance by 30% theoretically enabling it up be at all times and changing slaughter/hand of justice so that you control it. It would take almost all of the RNG out of Carnage/Combat now this is potential warning for a nerf because you would be in full control of a spec that personally i only have a +-75 dps with drop that to 0 i would be hitting way to hard way to consistently and realistically this is doing nothing for the pvp side of things. I'm not sure what the change is that needs to be made to fix Carnage/combat for pvp but its defiantly something to do with the momentum you lose by getting stunned/knocked back(gore windows ETC.) Annihilation/Watchmen has the same problems with losing that momentum with losing stacks/not being able to apply the 3 stack bleed in some cases.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ElyvnFrenzy

[Gudarzz]

The main issue that i find with all 3 specs is the "penalty" to using predation/transcendence and bloodthirst/inspiration over berserk/zen. The reason for this is because we cannot build fury/centering during this buffs duration. Marauders/sentinels run on fury/centering and seem to pay a price for using buffs to help the group out rather then increase dps for all 3 specs and I don't see this as absolutely necessary even during berserk(especially in carnage/combat and rage/focus) you're losing potential stacks because you have the berserk active. This hurts all the specs and i believe should be addressed above all else.

 

I like this. This can be easily bucketed with the problems surrounding any of the specs.

[CellPerfect]

Carnage/combat overall has some RNG quirks but for example if they increase execute/opportune attacks proc chance to 30% theoretically enabling it up be at all times and changing slaughter/hand of justice so that you control it. It would take almost all of the RNG out of Carnage/Combat now this is potential warning for a nerf because you would be in full control of a spec that personally i only have a +-75 dps with drop that to 0 i would be hitting way to hard way to consistently and realistically this is doing nothing for the pvp side of things. I'm not sure what the change is that needs to be made to fix Carnage/combat for pvp but its defiantly something to do with the momentum you lose by getting stunned/knocked back(gore windows ETC.) Annihilation/Watchmen has the same problems with losing that momentum with losing stacks/not being able to apply the 3 stack bleed in some cases.

 

I don't see how being in control of procs would not help carnage / combat in pvp. In fact, I think this would be a pretty big buff for the spec in pvp. Not missing any gore procs (unless cced through it) would mean that I get more gores, more gores = more chance for massive burst damage which is amazing for pvp. You can try to cc a marauder through every gore, but eventually he will get full resolve from all the ccs, or you will run out of ccs. Either way more gores means I have many more chances to get off my burst and If ccs are blown on the carnage marauder then they can't be used on someone else. This means they can use their full burst on a person uninterrupted (or for the most part).

 

I personally main a carnage marauder / combat sentinel and I think the spec is great in pvp. These small changes (Slaughter not proccing unless gore is on cd and the static gore buff) would make the spec even better spot. Yes it is Susceptible to being shut down due to ccs, but every class has to have a way to counter it or it would be op. Even with ccs being the counter, I don't find that I get cced through every gore window (in fact, I usually get off what I need to during gore more often than not). Annihilation's dots are the same way. As Thecourier said, I don't see them being cleansed every time. A buff to these weaknesses would be nice though so that when either spec is countered in this way, we aren't totally useless. We should obviously be weakened (otherwise we would be overpowered) but not lose such a large portion of our damage.

[MarkXXIV]

I don't see how being in control of procs would not help carnage / combat in pvp. In fact, I think this would be a pretty big buff for the spec in pvp. Not missing any gore procs (unless cced through it) would mean that I get more gores, more gores = more chance for massive burst damage which is amazing for pvp. You can try to cc a marauder through every gore, but eventually he will get full resolve from all the ccs, or you will run out of ccs. Either way more gores means I have many more chances to get off my burst and If ccs are blown on the carnage marauder then they can't be used on someone else. This means they can use their full burst on a person uninterrupted (or for the most part).

 

I personally main a carnage marauder / combat sentinel and I think the spec is great in pvp. These small changes (Slaughter not proccing unless gore is on cd and the static gore buff) would make the spec even better spot. Yes it is Susceptible to being shut down due to ccs, but every class has to have a way to counter it or it would be op. Even with ccs being the counter, I don't find that I get cced through every gore window (in fact, I usually get off what I need to during gore more often than not). Annihilation's dots are the same way. As Thecourier said, I don't see them being cleansed every time. A buff to these weaknesses would be nice though so that when either spec is countered in this way, we aren't totally useless. We should obviously be weakened (otherwise we would be overpowered) but not lose such a large portion of our damage.

 

Lol at the full resolve from cc part. If your at full resolve your probably dead. I am going to play carnage in pvp, a lot of you guys are saying its good, I wonder what im doing wrong.

[CellPerfect]

Lol at the full resolve from cc part. If your at full resolve your probably dead.

 

Depends. Am I in ranked or regs? Did I have defensive cds up? Was against good players or bads? Was it from mezzes or hard stuns? It always depends on the situation and I don't find that I die every time I'm at full resolve .

[BARSAL]

While marauder is not my main, carnage was in my top 3 favorite specs to play in the game prior 2.0. I can definitely agree that the main issue is being able to control the burst, but I feel that the most annoying thing they changed was rage management. With berserk no longer giving a reduce rage cost to massacre you can blow through your rage very quickly, and there is almost nothing you can do to avoid throwing in some basic attacks in prolonged fights, which is almost every fight in a rated warzone and raid.

[oofalong]

I am really not trying to be argumentative here so please don't interpret it that way...

 

First, ElvynFrenzy didn't state that Carnage was "fine" in PVE. He was responding to your comment that annihilation can keep up with carnage.

 

I am sorry if my wording wasn't clear on this. I never meant to insinuate the Annihilation was an inferior spec or unplayable or couldn't keep up. Still, I think if you go way back in time, it was the dominant spec for PvE Marauders. With changes to both specs as well as new Operations, Carnage became preferred by many people. That was my point.

 

He clearly states some problems with carnage.

 

Not to pick on ElyvnFrenzy, but the only problems he clearly stated for Carnage centered on PvP. He does mention lack of utility in PvE, but does not define it. My guess would be fewer self heals and no group heals. Still, its ability for burst is unrivaled. In any event, they should each have their pros and cons. In my opinion no class/spec should be able to do everything very well. The game should encourage trade-offs.

 

Remember what I told you before, just because someone plays a spec and makes it work, doesn't mean it can't be improved.

 

But improving a spec that is already solid leads to imbalance. I believe there could/should be changes to things out of balance, not blanket improvements.

 

This entire class rep initiative is about improving our classes.

 

Is it really? Based on Musco's post it is about opening communication between the Devs and player base specifically around class balance issues. And, he is clear to point out that the questions may not lead to action.Or do you have some other information?

 

 

Second, you state that the true problem is "the inability to capitalize on each Gore window". What do you think causes this inability to capitalize on each Gore window? 1. Bad slaughter procs due to RNG that deny extra gores. 2. Excessive knockbacks/stun. I address both these things in the sample question with ideas provided by the community. You are simply giving another title for what I have already stated. If you feel I am still wrong here, please feel free to provide another source (outside of RNG and knockbacks) that contributes to this inability to take advantage of gore. If we identify another source, it will be added to the final question immediately.

 

While it may seem like semantics I was trying to organize around the concept of inopportune Gore windows. If this is the agreed underlying issues I think there are solutions in addition to what you first identified here, including:

 

• Eliminating the Gore proc and reducing the CD of Ravage to 15s. This provides a more opportune Gore window.
  
• Keep the Gore proc, but have it finish the CD on Ravage instead of freeing up Vicious Throw. This reduces the concerns around resource depleted Gore Windows.
  

 

I am sure there are other ideas as well. My purpose in posting on this concept of inopportune Gore windows was to hopefully get others to brainstorm on this.

 

You have responded/refuted many of my posts, but I didn't see any comment on this; I'd be interested to hear your perspectives.

[znihilist]

May I suggest something ?

Considering what has been achieved on the Sentinel side of the discussion (here). And seeing how the questions raised by KeyboardNinja are actually isomorphic to what we were doing here. Wouldn't be better to move on to other (specific) issues ?

 

I do realize that the questions have more of a general tone to them, but they do help us constrain our questions.

 

Edit:

For example this is the Annihilation question which actually addresses the ramp up time (PvP and PvE issue):

Watchman/Annihilation currently suffers from a very long ramp-up time and is severely punished for any downtime due to the Merciless/Annihilate stacking buff. This ramp-up makes the spec nearly unconscionable in competitive PvP, and the downtime penalties cause severe issues in both PvP and certain PvE encounters (such as Titan 6 or Dread Guard). Would it be possible to improve the ramp-up and downtime penalties in this area? Perhaps by talenting Valorous Call/Frenzy to build Merciless/Annihilate stacks. Another idea would be to decrement Merciless/Annihilate stacks upon expiry rather than removing them entirely.

We can focus in our Annihilation question on dots in PvP (since this is the most raised issue here).

Edited August 3, 2013 by znihilist

[MarkXXIV]

May I suggest something ?

Considering what has been achieved on the Sentinel side of the discussion (here). And seeing how the questions raised by KeyboardNinja are actually isomorphic to what we were doing here. Wouldn't be better to move on to other (specific) issues ?

 

I do realize that the questions have more of a general tone to them, but they do help us constrain our questions.

 

Edit:

For example this is the Annihilation question which actually addresses the ramp up time (PvP and PvE issue):

 

We can focus in our Annihilation question on dots in PvP (since this is the most raised issue here).

 

Don't forget about dot cleansing problems and the heals especially!

@oofalong I think carnage needs to be about as strong as rage or ranged dps in warzone, or rage/ranged dps(lol sniper) need to be nerfed(to make carnage/annihilation more balanced). There are a lot of good marauder but rage spec is really the only spec that can put out similar total damage to ranged dps and there isn't much reason to pick carnage/annihilation over rage. What do you guys think? Do you think carnage is as good as rage/ranged dps in warzone before skill is a factor, and if not why isn't it? For carnage to be balanced it needs to be about as good as the top specs and I don't think it is atm. Do you guys think total dmg dealt is important in warzone or do you think the burst damage it does makes it fine?

If you think carnage is as effective as rage/ranged dps in warzone, please let me know why. If not can you help to make it so.

 

The game shouldn't have fotm classes, some people say people pick these classes because they are easy to play and other classes are just as strong if played by a good player but I disagree. Fotm classes are usually bandwagoned because they are stronger than the others before player skill is a factor. A lot of time people bandwagoning or abandoning a class or spec is because of game imbalance.

 

pvp abandoned spec(1.7 merc,2.0 powertech, non ranged/rage dps)

pvp fotm spec(healer,sniper,rage)

^this should not happen.

Edited August 3, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Avicii]

Total dmg is a misleading stat in WZs and you can't use that to aim for balance. Rage does AoE dmg so its totals can look absurd conpared to some single target specs. PTs and Madness Sorc/Sin can dot the crap outta everything and have good looking numbers at the end on the scoreboard but they are not desired in high end PvP. Snipers are an outlier to a degree and their tools make them essential on some maps for entrench in HB in particular.

 

Different classes and specs have different roles. Some classes are all burst like Deception sins yet their substained is at the low end of the classes.

 

Point being score boards aren't whar balance should be aimed for as its unreliable not to mention skill plays a factor as well as opponents. I think the classes function is what should be noted such as the idea of Anni being a healer killer like it was at launch when everyone played it. Yet on the score board total dmg wouldn't match AoE specs dmg yet locking down a healer is a very valuable role that can win matches and none of this takes into consideration that PvE and all classes need to stay balanced to a degree in relation with each other.

 

I don't know particularly how to go about that but score board dmg isn't what needs to be used as the metric of balance.

[CellPerfect]

While it may seem like semantics I was trying to organize around the concept of inopportune Gore windows. If this is the agreed underlying issues I think there are solutions in addition to what you first identified here, including:

 

• Eliminating the Gore proc and reducing the CD of Ravage to 15s. This provides a more opportune Gore window.
  
• Keep the Gore proc, but have it finish the CD on Ravage instead of freeing up Vicious Throw. This reduces the concerns around resource depleted Gore Windows.
  

 

I am sure there are other ideas as well. My purpose in posting on this concept of inopportune Gore windows was to hopefully get others to brainstorm on this.

 

These are some interesting ideas. It would certainly give some better damage and better utility (with a 3 second root being on a 15 - 20 second cd). Having ravage for every gore would make it quite easy to determine when we use gore thought (if your rooted and you see a ravage being channeled then it is quite obvious that we have it up). This first change would certainly be a buff to the spec for pve but for pvp I think it may be bad. We would only have one gore (instead of the reset) so getting cced through it would be hurt us more than it does now. Although if you use ravage as a root and not during gore then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Who knows (perhaps this is where a pts should come in to see how this would effect the spec).

 

The second change would fix the issues I had with the first change. The only thing is that I don't see this being a huge change for resources. Slaughter makes our execute free (and I noticed that it usually builds one rage when I use it, maybe I missed something in the talent tree though) and dual saber throw is free. As long as you have a little bit of rage (which every carnage marauder should make sure they have before they use gore) before you use gore then everything should be fine.

 

I would defiantly like to see how these changes would work though because more ravage = more damage and utility which would be great seeing as we are a high utility spec.

 

@oofalong I think carnage needs to be about as strong as rage or ranged dps in warzone, or rage/ranged dps(lol sniper) need to be nerfed(to make carnage/annihilation more balanced). There are a lot of good marauder but rage spec is really the only spec that can put out similar total damage to ranged dps and there isn't much reason to pick carnage/annihilation over rage. What do you guys think? Do you think carnage is as good as rage/ranged dps in warzone before skill is a factor, and if not why isn't it? For carnage to be balanced it needs to be about as good as the top specs and I don't think it is atm. Do you guys think total dmg dealt is important in warzone or do you think the burst damage it does makes it fine?

If you think carnage is as effective as rage/ranged dps in warzone, please let me know why. If not can you help to make it so.

 

Carnage's damage is usually on the lower end of the scoreboard because it is a lot of burst and has little "fluff" damage. Specs like rage have a lot of aoe so their damage will be higher seeing as they are hitting more people at once. Just because the damage is higher does not mean the spec is necessarily better. Otherwise we would all be playing dot specs because those can top the scoreboard in damage quite easily, especially when they spread their dots around. Carnage on the other hand has no real "fluff" damage like the other specs. It is all single target so nothing gets spread around. It also loses more damage while cced compared to the dot based specs because those dots still tick while they are cced (basically they have more up time on the target). When carnage gets cced, it literally does no damage during that time so it loses a lot more dps than other classes may.

[KeyboardNinja]

I have now posted the Sentinel top 3 questions for this month: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=667987

 

Steadfast made a pretty convincing case in PMs for setting aside the Combat/Carnage RNG question for the time being and prioritizing the Centering/Fury build up issue. This mirrored my own feelings on the issue, as well as the comments of oofalong, Gudarzz and several other luminaries. Thus, the questions I asked were in the following archetypes: Annihilation ramp-up and downtime penalties (PvP *and* PvE), Rage single-target DPS (PvE), and Fury building during raid buffs (all).