[Class Questions] Let's Start Fresh: 3 Questions to Devs RE: Powertechs

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

OMG someone needs to be blunt about it. IF YOU'RE HAVING HEAT ISSUES YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. STOP SPAMMING IM, 1 RAPID SHOT WHEN OVER 25 HEAT FTW!

 

Do not waste a question on needing heat relief just because people don't know how to play the class properly.

 

I've said it before if they wanna fix pyro just simple revert it back to pre 2.0. TD armor pen on RS G2G. No need for DcD's.

 

Dude. That's a Design flaw if EVERY other class has an easy way of regaining heat EXCEPT Pyro. And you cant tell me that Pyro is meant to spam Rapid Shots to dump heat. That's a net DPS loss if so. If DoT Crits degaussed 2 heat at a 100% rate im pretty sure that Pyro DPS would increase by 10% - 20% Because of not needing to spam Rapid Shots as much. You may still need to spam it a bit, but it helps. It's not a not knowing how to play the class it's a design flaw within the class. Either that or Pyro needs a 20% damage increase to Rapid Shots. Either way. Current Pyro is losing out on alot of DPS when they spam Rapid Shots.

[wetslampigduex]

Dude. That's a Design flaw if EVERY other class has an easy way of regaining heat EXCEPT Pyro. And you cant tell me that Pyro is meant to spam Rapid Shots to dump heat. That's a net DPS loss if so. If DoT Crits degaussed 2 heat at a 100% rate im pretty sure that Pyro DPS would increase by 10% - 20% Because of not needing to spam Rapid Shots as much. You may still need to spam it a bit, but it helps. It's not a not knowing how to play the class it's a design flaw within the class. Either that or Pyro needs a 20% damage increase to Rapid Shots. Either way. Current Pyro is losing out on alot of DPS when they spam Rapid Shots.

 

Nah bro, I believe this is a perception problem on your part . Heat is a complete non issue, you're obviously doing something wrong in your rotation. Pre 2.0 I had the highest recorded PT DPS on toreparse(second highest dps recorded of any class other than a sniper), I never once ran into heat issues(unless I spaced out and spammed FB or applied IM while my heat was too high). I have not touched PT DPS since returning to the game 2 months ago, but I am aware a pure pyro rotation hasn't changed one bit. Their is no need to spam Rapid shots at all, a single rapid shot in the rotation to keep your heat down is not losing out on a ton of DPS. Assuming you are getting your RS procs the second they are up you should never ever have a issue with heat. To think you can sit there and spam all your hard hitters is not how the class is played. It's the most simple DPS class to play in the game, learn when to use your vent heat and TSO you'll have no issues with heat.

Edited September 6, 2013 by wetslampigduex

[Mathemagica]

I will definitely have to disagree with you on moving Flame Engine out of ST will FIX the spec. It will actually lower down our overall TPS, DPS, and Heat venting. Having 2 Flame Throwers every 21 seconds for the cost of 1 FT is a bigger TPS and DPS boost than any kind of benefit that Energy Rebounder would give.

 

I second this. Flame Engine is very useful for Tanks while it completely disturbs the AP rotation (Flamethrower coming off cooldown when you are setting up a Rail Shot auto-crit etc). I can also foresee complaints about the high RNG dependence of APs damage, as soon as AP gets Flame Engine.

In short, I completely disagree with this idea.

 

The only place where I would like any shifting of any talents is in the two bottom tiers of the three trees for the following reason.

If you climb up the whole Pyrotech tree, you have to skip some very nice talents at the bottom of the other trees. In particular, you have to choose between Hyperfuel and Prototype Cylinders (or taking neither of them).

The problem here is, that most of the 'general damage boosting talents' are at the bottom of Shield Tech and AP. If those talents could be switched around a bit, such that both dps trees can get the talents I list below, it would help Powertechs a lot.

 

Hyperfuel

Steely Resolve

Rail Loaders

Prototype Burn Enhancers

Puncture

Prototype Cylinders

Iron Fist

 

If you check you will see, that it takes 16 points to get all these talents. No matter how you distribute them in the lowest two tiers of the three trees, one tree won't be able to acquire all of these talents (by one point in an optimal-case scenario).

Unfortunately, switching some of the talents listed above with more defensive talents at the bottom of AP and Pyrotech will force Shield Tech to trade damage (and hence threat) against endurance. I'm not sure how much this will impact tanks, since I rarely have threat issues, but I wanted to mention it.

 

So we could ask, whether there is a chance they will redistribute some of our bottom tier talents in favor of Pyrotech without hurting the other two trees.

 

And I want to repeat myself: Jerc, where are you? We need to choose the topics our questions will be about. Otherwise we don't have enough time to make the questions come out right. This discussion goes nowhere without our Class Rep.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Mathemagica

[OlosBC]

Nah bro, I believe this is a perception problem on your part . Heat is a complete non issue, you're obviously doing something wrong in your rotation. Pre 2.0 I had the highest recorded PT DPS on toreparse(second highest dps recorded of any class other than a sniper), I never once ran into heat issues(unless I spaced out and spammed FB or applied IM while my heat was too high). I have not touched PT DPS since returning to the game 2 months ago, but I am aware a pure pyro rotation hasn't changed one bit. Their is no need to spam Rapid shots at all, a single rapid shot in the rotation to keep your heat down is not losing out on a ton of DPS. Assuming you are getting your RS procs the second they are up you should never ever have a issue with heat. To think you can sit there and spam all your hard hitters is not how the class is played. It's the most simple DPS class to play in the game, learn when to use your vent heat and TSO you'll have no issues with heat.

 

This.

 

Pyro heat management is super simple. Even playing hybrid DPS, I usually only need like one rapid shots every other rail shot cycle, don't need it at all with good procs.

 

PPA is our heat regen mechanic. Makes rail shot free and restore 8 heat, effectively regennin 24 heat every time you use it.

 

Helps to remember too: bottoming out your heat is almost as bad as overheating. If you proc rail shot and are still under 20 heat, use another ability first (IM, TD, RB, FT(if hybrid)), and then, when your heat is at like 30, use rail. Heat will go to 15 and you'll be set for your next go at the proc. If you're at 5 heat and use rail, you are effectively forcing yourselfto do an extra rapid a few gcds down tthe line.

[ellenbec]

I second this. Flame Engine is very useful for Tanks while it completely disturbs the AP rotation (Flamethrower coming off cooldown when you are setting up a Rail Shot auto-crit etc). I can also foresee complaints about the high RNG dependence of APs damage, as soon as AP gets Flame Engine.

In short, I completely disagree with this idea.

 

The only place where I would like any shifting of any talents is in the two bottom tiers of the three trees for the following reason.

If you climb up the whole Pyrotech tree, you have to skip some very nice talents at the bottom of the other trees. In particular, you have to choose between Hyperfuel and Prototype Cylinders (or taking neither of them).

The problem here is, that most of the 'general damage boosting talents' are at the bottom of Shield Tech and AP. If those talents could be switched around a bit, such that both dps trees can get the talents I list below, it would help Powertechs a lot.

 

Hyperfuel

Steely Resolve

Rail Loaders

Prototype Burn Enhancers

Puncture

Prototype Cylinders

Iron Fist

 

If you check you will see, that it takes 16 points to get all these talents. No matter how you distribute them in the lowest two tiers of the three trees, one tree won't be able to acquire all of these talents (by one point in an optimal-case scenario).

Unfortunately, switching some of the talents listed above with more defensive talents at the bottom of AP and Pyrotech will force Shield Tech to trade damage (and hence threat) against endurance. I'm not sure how much this will impact tanks, since I rarely have threat issues, but I wanted to mention it.

 

So we could ask, whether there is a chance they will redistribute some of our bottom tier talents in favor of Pyrotech without hurting the other two trees.

 

And I want to repeat myself: Jerc, where are you? We need to choose the topics our questions will be about. Otherwise we don't have enough time to make the questions come out right. This discussion goes nowhere without our Class Rep.

 

I definitely agree with you about changing some of the things around to help out Pyro. That tree is just a mess in general really.

 

The issue though with changing things around and affecting ST isn't that it will affect our overall TPS (it will slightly, since most of our threat is based off our damage output moreso than any kind of high threat modifier) but moreso our DPS. A lot of people forget that developers design Boss Health and Boss Enrage Timers to factor in Tank DPS. If tanks do slack on optimal DPS, which for a ST follows our Priority List, then we are not pulling our weight to clear out boss health.

 

My guild's first kill of Kephess SM at 50, due to my guild not having seen the fight and know just HOW to kite the yellow circles, I was the only one left alive and soloed the last 20kish of his health kiting and attacking. If our outgoing damage profile was negligible and we held threat (like some people think) just off high threat modifiers and taunt, then doing things like that would be efforts in futility.

 

YES! Tank DPS isn't equal to a primary DPS, but we DO provide DPS that dev teams factor in. If they didn't then enrage timers would be shorter and Boss Health Pools would be lower and everyone would be beating them easily.

[Mathemagica]

I definitely agree with you about changing some of the things around to help out Pyro. That tree is just a mess in general really.

 

The issue though with changing things around and affecting ST isn't that it will affect our overall TPS (it will slightly, since most of our threat is based off our damage output moreso than any kind of high threat modifier) but moreso our DPS. A lot of people forget that developers design Boss Health and Boss Enrage Timers to factor in Tank DPS. If tanks do slack on optimal DPS, which for a ST follows our Priority List, then we are not pulling our weight to clear out boss health.

 

My guild's first kill of Kephess SM at 50, due to my guild not having seen the fight and know just HOW to kite the yellow circles, I was the only one left alive and soloed the last 20kish of his health kiting and attacking. If our outgoing damage profile was negligible and we held threat (like some people think) just off high threat modifiers and taunt, then doing things like that would be efforts in futility.

 

YES! Tank DPS isn't equal to a primary DPS, but we DO provide DPS that dev teams factor in. If they didn't then enrage timers would be shorter and Boss Health Pools would be lower and everyone would be beating them easily.

 

I completely agree with you. But since the talents I listed above require 16 points, it would be possible - in theory - to spread them such that even Shield Tech could access all of them, except for two points. This should be acceptable by design of the bosses (after all, even now not all Powertech tanks take all the damage boosting talents, even though they could). The problem is that there are too few talents that could be put in Shield Tech instead and to few talents that could be taken out of Pyrotech to make the distribution I described above reality (the first two tiers of Pyrotech have very few talents that are interesting for AP and Shield Tech).

It might be an interesting question to ask, what they had in mind when they put so many damage boosting talents at the bottom of Shield Tech and AP, making it impossible for Pyrotech to get all of them and whether they have any plans to maybe reconstruct the two bottom tiers of the three trees, mainly by shifting things around carefully.

 

Edit: Corrected a mistake. What I wanted to say is: The damage boosting talents can be placed such that Shield Tech could get all but two points, while AP and Pyrotech can get all of them.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Mathemagica

[easeyway]

extremely true. large changes is why we have such OP things like exfiltrate without dropping the ball, and Barrier while still being able to receive heals.

 

Moving two skills will help fix tanking and AP. Switch Energy Redoubt skill in AP with the Flame Thrower proc (Flame Engine). AP doesn't need more defensive abilities than HoL/HO +4s duration and Stabilized armor, Tank needs more Abs. AP also needs better heat management for Flamethrower, BUT it already has it with the new change, so I'm happy either way, if they do or don't switch those.

 

Flamethrower already hits like 10k AoE in 3 seconds. You want to double the DPS (10 in 1.5 seconds)? ...Then again, it's not like it would be op compared to smash...

 

I think it would be actually cool if AP had 1.5 flamethrower proc, but realistically they'd have to get rid of the damage increase and stacks. That would be fine. I don't like stack builds in PvP. Too restrictive rotation.

 

 

AP - Don't reduce damage on Retractable Blade, keep Flamethrower the way it currently is looking for 2.4, get rid of Power Armor for something more useful. Give more than a 1% increase on damage for High Energy Gas Cylinder for Prototype cylinders. That's, on 1000 damage, 10 points of damage. pretty freakin worthless. Even Ion cell gets 8%. It still does more damage. Do something different with pneumatic boots, give 10% increase speed to High Energy cylinder to the prototype cylinder, along with a 5% increase in damage. Maybe MAYBE people will use the cylinder, finally.

 

Ok, I have to explain some things here. First, the tank stance increases the measly DoT. 8% to no DMG is still no DMG (which is what the DoT really does, nothing).

 

So, why 1%, when pyro gets 3% crit? Here's why:

 

Because 3% crit does not mean 3% more damage. It is dependent of your critical multiplier (surge). Let's assume you'd have 70% critical multiplier (this is the soft cap, so going over this is unlikely). +3% crit would increase your dmg, not 3%, but 0.03 x 0.7 = 2,1 %. Remember, this is with the intended max surge. The benefit of +3% crit decreases as you go down in surge.

 

Now, I agree that 1% is not enough. 2% would be on par with 3% crit. And no, the talents do not seem to affect the 1% so much:

 

1.05 (stance) x 1.06 (tank talent) x 1.01 (AP talent) = 1,12413

1.05 x 1.06 = 1,113

 

1,12413 - 1,113 = 0,01113 (1,113 %, so still pretty close to 1%)

 

Whereas:

 

1.05 x 1.06 x 1.02 = 1,13526

1,13526 - 1,113 = 0,02226 (2,226 %, so not too much above pyro 2,1 %)

 

Feel free to use this in your question to the devs on why it's 1% only. Could be because of some procs and talents up the tree (increased critical). Because, when you add 30% critical multiplier to 70%, you get 100%. And then, +critical = +dmg (with 100% critical multiplier +3% critical equals +3% overall damage on average). So I'll admit, 1% is a tad too little.

 

Could have something to do with the fact that pyro is the consistent damage dealer spec, and AP the burst spec? Sounds funny these days. Compared to what the Pyro was back in the day...

[ellenbec]

1 month out from our questions being due. Have we come to any kind of basic consensus for this?

 

Also, I just PMed Eric about Jerk being MIA for almost a month now, said he would try to get ahold of Jerk to see if he is still active or not.

 

As a community though, even if Jerk isn't coming back, we should still try and figure out something to present.

 

I say over the next two weeks try and hash out three rough ideas, then communally get them solidified the week and a half after that.

[easeyway]

1 month out from our questions being due. Have we come to any kind of basic consensus for this?

 

Also, I just PMed Eric about Jerk being MIA for almost a month now, said he would try to get ahold of Jerk to see if he is still active or not.

 

As a community though, even if Jerk isn't coming back, we should still try and figure out something to present.

 

I say over the next two weeks try and hash out three rough ideas, then communally get them solidified the week and a half after that.

 

Is Jerk FeralPug, our representative?

[ellenbec]

Yes. FeralPug is his forum name. Jerk is/was the name of his main. He has referred to himself as both in previous posts.

[Brunner_Venda]

Problem is, I really want to see 2.4 live before we can really figure out what our questions should be.

 

The devs are planning on making some changes and adding new class abilities for AC's that don't have a clear defined role. I'm curious what they have in mind, since we don't really have any group buffs like predation.

 

As it is, here are my questions.

 

1. PT tanks are in a good place, can you please address a couple of their quality of life issues? They just ate a damage need on FT, you can fix that by adding a little punch or crit to flame engine. They can also use an adjustment to defensive cooldowns to make them competitive with juggs.

 

2. Please leave AP alone. Don't take rebounder and give it to tanks, it's more than half of the spec's defenses. Where flame engine is one of the tank's hardest hitters. Just... No. AP is fine. My only complaint is the retractable blade nerf. It's ruined as a finisher move, and the change made no sense except to wreck AP hybrid specs.

 

3. Pyro can use a tad more range and damage. A ranged interrupt would be nice here, and would give them something unique that the other two specs don't have. (Not to mention a role too, as a healer killing spec.)

[af_raptura]

I think Brunner makes some good points. If there is a tank question, and I sincerely hope there is, I think it should go towards some sort of defensive cooldown buff. PT tanks have never had any good "oh crap" buttons because they had a fairly non spikey damage intake, but strong cooldowns are so essential to pvp play as a melee class. Furthermore, Pve players might would benefit from increasing the survivability of their tank for high damages phases in boss fights.

[easeyway]

3. Pyro can use a tad more range and damage. A ranged interrupt would be nice here, and would give them something unique that the other two specs don't have. (Not to mention a role too, as a healer killing spec.)

 

You mean a sorc healer killer?

 

There is no way a tech DoT based build is ever going to kill an equally skilled operative/commando healer.

 

Cleanse cleans all you DoTs, and you don't have heal reduction talents like pure DPS classes. This ends up in you doing no damage whatsoever, and the healer continuing business as usual, even healing his/her teammates.

 

Not to mention that the CD reduction to interrupt is in AP...So yeah.

Edited September 11, 2013 by easeyway

[JollyRen]

Flamethrower already hits like 10k AoE in 3 seconds. You want to double the DPS (10 in 1.5 seconds)? ...Then again, it's not like it would be op compared to smash...

 

I think it would be actually cool if AP had 1.5 flamethrower proc, but realistically they'd have to get rid of the damage increase and stacks. That would be fine. I don't like stack builds in PvP. Too restrictive rotation.

 

Well, it isn't assuming for stacks. Preferrably you would get that proc AFTER you have used FT with full stacks, but currently, you build your stacks just from passive rotation (Immo, RP, RB, FB, FB, FT, RP), you just have to add one more to get full stacks, otherwise, 2 would be perfect, but you'd have to wait anyway to get the CD for FT... OR you have your stacks, but FT is on CD for another 3 seconds and it procs, you get to use FT again on normal CD before that ability procs again. It would seriously benefit. I often get stunned just as i'm FT, or I get knocked because HO is down, and it is interrupted. Really annoying, as it is a big damage dealer, but it isn't being used because it gets interrupted. That's the only BIG DAMAGE that AP has.

 

 

Ok, I have to explain some things here. First, the tank stance increases the measly DoT. 8% to no DMG is still no DMG (which is what the DoT really does, nothing).

 

So, why 1%, when pyro gets 3% crit? Here's why:

 

While I don't disagree with the math, i don't get the prototype cylinder in AP Ion cell, because like you said, it's pointless. I HAVE to spend, so I put it in the damage reduction by 1%, Powered Armor. Horrible. I hate that. it kills me to do. There are few wasted skillpoints on the way up pyro, even doing hybrid. None, actually. AP is a different story.

 

I don't get why you brought in the +3% crit, though, when I didn't mention anythign about it. I think 3% is great, it brings you past the 25% cap you have with crit/mainstat. I don't have ANY crit except in my 2 implants and I still, in pyro, am like 27-28? Not sure, can't remember, but it's insane how easy it is to get crit. I'm going to eliminate it completely in 2.4 and get the crit relic and test that out. I've been testing alacrity with decent results, though. It decreases channel time on FT, and I get extra heat, AND I can get an extra hit in every other rotation, basically.

 

Anyway, 1% damage is pointless, and not worth the skill point. I don't get it for any spec except pyro, and not always. Sometimes I go into shield tech for the direct damage boost.

 

what you forget though, is it is actually 9% you get from skills in pyro, but 6% is invisible, because it applies ONLY to fire effects, from AP tree, proto burn enhancers, so you don't need crit nearly as much as pyro as you would for AP. Although, full AP you dont' need crit either, because of autocrit on RS. But I digress, as I don't play pure AP.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#300230-13232011212201022220322-20

 

or

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-212201022221302-222120122203023

 

I do power augments for that one, so there isn't a loss in damage you would normally have geared with high mainstat. What you lose from mainstat is the crit, but if you don't go power heavy, you lose the crit and damage anyway. I still do 5500+ hits without that power gear though. Bonus of not relying on mainstat as your sole source of crit/power is you get more endurance from switching a couple of those mods to medium power, high endurance. Reduces crit and power on mainstat even further, but you can tank a bit better.

 

from my gear tests it is only 2 more bonus damage, and 1.6% reduction in crit to use power augments instead of main stat, and you save 3 points in steely resolve to use in more damage from another skill in the tree.

 

my most pertinent question to devs would be:

 

"Hybrids are variety that this game sorely needs. They don't need to be better than straight specs, but they can serve a valuable role strattling two trees. For instance, a hybrid tank can leap and get the Hydraulic Override duration increase, and with combat medic 2 set, has decreased CD on Hydraulic Overrides, and I believe increases Reactive shield by 3 seconds, and carry the ball handily in huttball, or stun in fire and get out quick. AP with Ion Cell, not taking any High Energy Gas skills in the tree, obviously, is hard to kill, and still puts out decent, but not great, DPS. An AP/Pyro hybrid can do decent sustained damage, and with a pocket healer, I have out-DPS the rest of the WZ participants, including smash, and allows me to kill snipers, finally. With the many roles Powertech can play, why not encourage Hybrids for this class? Perhaps that would solve your problem of people not being satisfied by the class. After all, aren't Bounty Hunters supposed to have custom augmentations to their gear by lore? Aren't they supposed to be adaptable to take down prey? Seems like all the Bounty Hunters in the galaxy are identical right now.

 

QUESTION: So, with the many roles Powertech can play, why not encourage Hybrids for this class?"

[JollyRen]

Problem is, I really want to see 2.4 live before we can really figure out what our questions should be.

 

The devs are planning on making some changes and adding new class abilities for AC's that don't have a clear defined role. I'm curious what they have in mind, since we don't really have any group buffs like predation.

 

As it is, here are my questions.

 

1. PT tanks are in a good place, can you please address a couple of their quality of life issues? They just ate a damage need on FT, you can fix that by adding a little punch or crit to flame engine. They can also use an adjustment to defensive cooldowns to make them competitive with juggs.

 

2. Please leave AP alone. Don't take rebounder and give it to tanks, it's more than half of the spec's defenses. Where flame engine is one of the tank's hardest hitters. Just... No. AP is fine. My only complaint is the retractable blade nerf. It's ruined as a finisher move, and the change made no sense except to wreck AP hybrid specs.

 

3. Pyro can use a tad more range and damage. A ranged interrupt would be nice here, and would give them something unique that the other two specs don't have. (Not to mention a role too, as a healer killing spec.)

 

more than half of the spec's defenses? Energy rebounde blocks probably up to 1k every, what is it? 20 seconds? I agree with your comment on RB though. It isn't that great as is. It's good. Just not great. I'm not having a hardon for flame engine, but it would be nice to have something similar. It'd be nice if RB/Gut did an armor debuff, since we're literally puncturing them. lol Might be worth having an AP on your team if he's going around adding an armor debuff spamming RB like grav round and then a pyro following behind doing railshot, haha. Or for that matter a marksman/mara.

 

Ranged interrupt/gapcloser = pull. Needs to be used more. I dont' think they need more range or a ranged interrupt. I think their tree needs to be changed a tad in that infrared sensors is seldom used, and so is chaff, but they are doing something with Chaff I think.

[Mathemagica]

I went over the thread again and tried to find the things that were brought up that aren't up to change with the current PTS Patch notes. Maybe we can go on from there to pick three of these points.

 

1) (Tanking, defensive cooldowns) Our suite of defensive cooldowns lacks variety. Half of our four cooldowns (Energy Shield, Oil Slick, Kolto Overload, Shoulder Cannon) are self-heals which can only be used in a reactive way. Energy Shield and Oil Slick are designed for longer phases of 'slightly' increased damage. We miss a counterpart to the Melee/Ranged cooldown of Oil Slick and we miss a tool to defend ourselves against the big-hittters that occur during boss encounters or when one is focused in PvP.

 

2) (Tanking, game mechanics) There is a conflict between defense and the shielding mechanics in our tanking tree. (See post #3 of this thread for an explanation.)

 

3) (Tanking, balance) Many people consider Powertech tanks inferior to Juggernauts. (This isn't really something that can be put into a class rep-question, because the main reason for this is that Juggs are slightly OP. Nevertheless, it has been brought up and I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise.)

 

4) (Dps, gap-closer) We have to few tools to close in on our target. At the same time most of our core attacks have a short range. These two things combined lead to a very low uptime on our targets in many situations and reduce our damage potential.

 

5) (Dps, Pyrotech) Pyrotech still doesn't do enough sustained damage. (My experience with Pyrotech is restricted to reading the talent descriptions and 20 seconds on a dummy pre-2.0. I don't know what effect the 2.4 changes have on Pyrotechs damage.)

 

6) (Dps, AP) Flamethrower is still dodgy. (I don't know whether this changes with the changes to the attached slow in 2.4.)

 

7) (The bottom tiers of all three trees) The generally useful skills in the bottom two tiers of all trees are placed in a way that doesn't encourage to spec full Pyrotech. However, this is hard to change without messing with the other two trees (especially Shield Tech).

 

Which of these should we focus on? Pick your favorite three.

 

 

 

Easeyway brought up something important: The changes to Powertechs in 2.0, together with the changes on the PTS show quite clearly that at the moment, AP is supposed to be the burst spec, while Pyrotech is supposed to provide good sustained damage. Those are the roles they currently fit best and so Pyrotech won't be a healer killer anytime soon, because healer killers need burst.

 

@Bunner_Venda, unfortunately, we can't see the 2.4-changes life before we have to submit our questions. I don't like this either - especially because the Vanguard questions suffered from a similar unlucky schedule, but we have to work with schedule as it is.

[easeyway]

I don't get why you brought in the +3% crit, though, when I didn't mention anythign about it. I think 3% is great, it brings you past the 25% cap you have with crit/mainstat. I don't have ANY crit except in my 2 implants and I still, in pyro, am like 27-28? Not sure, can't remember, but it's insane how easy it is to get crit. I'm going to eliminate it completely in 2.4 and get the crit relic and test that out. I've been testing alacrity with decent results, though. It decreases channel time on FT, and I get extra heat, AND I can get an extra hit in every other rotation, basically.

 

Anyway, 1% damage is pointless, and not worth the skill point. I don't get it for any spec except pyro, and not always. Sometimes I go into shield tech for the direct damage boost.

 

I brought in the +3% crit, because people seem to think it's awesome, but 1% boost to DMG is not, when the difference of the two in total DPS done is really not that much (1%). This is of course just in theory, as we'd have to further investigate how much total DPS is done by elemental/internal in AP, and tech in Pyro. But, that was the point. People generally have trouble with %, and even bigger problems when the variables are small, and seem insignificant.

Edited September 12, 2013 by easeyway

[ScytheEleven]

I went over the thread again and tried to find the things that were brought up that aren't up to change with the current PTS Patch notes. Maybe we can go on from there to pick three of these points.

 

1) (Tanking, defensive cooldowns) Our suite of defensive cooldowns lacks variety. Half of our four cooldowns (Energy Shield, Oil Slick, Kolto Overload, Shoulder Cannon) are self-heals which can only be used in a reactive way. Energy Shield and Oil Slick are designed for longer phases of 'slightly' increased damage. We miss a counterpart to the Melee/Ranged cooldown of Oil Slick and we miss a tool to defend ourselves against the big-hittters that occur during boss encounters or when one is focused in PvP.

 

2) (Tanking, game mechanics) There is a conflict between defense and the shielding mechanics in our tanking tree. (See post #3 of this thread for an explanation.)

 

3) (Tanking, balance) Many people consider Powertech tanks inferior to Juggernauts. (This isn't really something that can be put into a class rep-question, because the main reason for this is that Juggs are slightly OP. Nevertheless, it has been brought up and I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise.)

 

4) (Dps, gap-closer) We have to few tools to close in on our target. At the same time most of our core attacks have a short range. These two things combined lead to a very low uptime on our targets in many situations and reduce our damage potential.

 

5) (Dps, Pyrotech) Pyrotech still doesn't do enough sustained damage. (My experience with Pyrotech is restricted to reading the talent descriptions and 20 seconds on a dummy pre-2.0. I don't know what effect the 2.4 changes have on Pyrotechs damage.)

 

6) (Dps, AP) Flamethrower is still dodgy. (I don't know whether this changes with the changes to the attached slow in 2.4.)

 

7) (The bottom tiers of all three trees) The generally useful skills in the bottom two tiers of all trees are placed in a way that doesn't encourage to spec full Pyrotech. However, this is hard to change without messing with the other two trees (especially Shield Tech).

 

Which of these should we focus on? Pick your favorite three.

 

 

 

Easeyway brought up something important: The changes to Powertechs in 2.0, together with the changes on the PTS show quite clearly that at the moment, AP is supposed to be the burst spec, while Pyrotech is supposed to provide good sustained damage. Those are the roles they currently fit best and so Pyrotech won't be a healer killer anytime soon, because healer killers need burst.

 

@Bunner_Venda, unfortunately, we can't see the 2.4-changes life before we have to submit our questions. I don't like this either - especially because the Vanguard questions suffered from a similar unlucky schedule, but we have to work with schedule as it is.

 

I think the only way to really switch talents in the skill tree without gimping shield tech is to only move Hyper Fuel and have it switch places with Integrated Cardio Package.

 

This shouldn't mess with any PVP or PVE builds for Shield Tech (I just messed around with the Skill Tree calculator and noticed no issues), but it puts Hyper Fuel in arms reach for full tree Pyro's now.

 

I still suggest adding armor penetration to the kinetic damage of TD when IM is on the target...making it "burstier" for PVP and added a bit more damage/synergy for PVE.

 

Shield Tech in PVE is in a good spot, but is often outclassed by Juggernauts who have a similar DR curve and yet have much superior cooldowns. Lack of a force/tech override for PT's should be addressed.

 

AP is in such a good place right now, I find it hard to want to use a question on it.

 

Also, KBN was kind enough to do math for us on Burnout and Armor Reduction. We NEED, I repeat, NEED to use this math when we present our questions!

 

 

On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low.

 

If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.

Edited September 12, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Mathemagica]

I think the only way to really switch talents in the skill tree without gimping shield tech is to only move Hyper Fuel and have it switch places with Integrated Cardio Package.

 

This shouldn't mess with any PVP or PVE builds for Shield Tech (I just messed around with the Skill Tree calculator and noticed no issues), but it puts Hyper Fuel in arms reach for full tree Pyro's now.

 

 

I played with the Skill Tree calculator as well and I agree, this is the easiest and safest change. Pyrotech still has to choose between Prototype Cylinder and the last point of Steely Resolve or Rail Loaders, but at least we would be talking about one point only.

 

I still suggest adding armor penetration to the kinetic damage of TD when IM is on the target...making it "burstier" for PVP and added a bit more damage/synergy for PVE.

 

It sounds nice. Not knowing much about Pyro dps I cannot say if this would be too much, when combined with the changes on the PTS.

 

Shield Tech in PVE is in a good spot, but is often outclassed by Juggernauts who have a similar DR curve and yet have much superior cooldowns. Lack of a force/tech override for PT's should be addressed.

 

Agreed.

 

AP is in such a good place right now, I find it hard to want to use a question on it.

 

Agreed. I put it on the list because Flamethrowers dodgyness was mentioned on occasion in the thread.

 

Also, KBN was kind enough to do math for us on Burnout and Armor Reduction. We NEED, I repeat, NEED to use this math when we present our questions!

 

I'm not sure, how to read this. Do you want to bring up what they said about Burnout and Armor in the Vanguard answers? (I only talk about the part quoted below.) While these calculations are very useful, we can only use it in our questions, if we ask about Pyrotechs dps. What would you ask about Pyrotech dps?

 

Please keep in mind that Pyrotech will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Pyrotech’s damage ignores armor, while for Advanced Prototype this number is around 65%. This means that the Pyrotech has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation.

 

If you want to say that we should use the calculations done which are relevant for question x, when asking question x, then I completely agree.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Mathemagica

[Archimbaud]

I justy play a PT tank in PvE so will only give my concerns about that configuration :

- grapple doesn't generate enough threat and there are really to few attacks that generate an increased threat. That means we may have difficulties to keep the aggro during the few first seconds of a fight. The shield cannon increased threat could be more sensible than 5% and may be have something to add threat to the flame thrower too.

- we have a lot of mobility as it is and have jet pack and grapple as gap closers. I don't think we need anything there.

- I think we have a good survivability. Ok, nothing OP, but nothing critical that would make raids too difficult. I'm not sure that it's a good idea to ask for another CD since we can't really show that the lack of a new CD makes our AC non viable as a tank.

 

On the other hand, when I see a PT, I can see a huge armor that hides every part of the body. Yet, we get the same protection than a Jugg that doesn't appear to be like Ironman/Boba Fett/Whoever has that big metal armor.

Thus, for balance issue, take just the comparison between

- Rebraced armor (16% of armor increase for 2 skill points)

- Guard Stance (15% armor increase for 1 skill point)

Rebraced armor could either :

- add 10% per point for a total of 20%

- or add 8% armor and 2% elemental/internal protec per skill point

- or both (depending of the balancing issues).

That would mean that the PT is the tank-with-armor attitude tank that is tanking mostly in passive mitigation and doesn't need a lot of CDs : all the tanking is focused on mobility and gathering enemies.

We would have a bigger role in raids for the add managements and group fighting : good aoe attacks (no need to specifiy here), jet charge+grapple, HO, 30/10/4 m attacks

 

That's just my idea to avoid having (for balancing issues) a replication of the jugg as a tank.

[ScytheEleven]

 

 

I'm not sure, how to read this. Do you want to bring up what they said about Burnout and Armor in the Vanguard answers? (I only talk about the part quoted below.) While these calculations are very useful, we can only use it in our questions, if we ask about Pyrotechs dps. What would you ask about Pyrotech dps?

 

 

 

If you want to say that we should use the calculations done which are relevant for question x, when asking question x, then I completely agree.

 

Pretty much spot on with the last part about how I viewed using KBN's math.

 

When we ask the question about Pyrotech DPS, we should use KBN's math to open up, which shows that Burnout and the armor debuff don't really bring Pyrotech within the 5% margin. Then we offer up solutions of how to fix this (i.e. switching Hyper Fuel and Integrated Cardio Package, possibly adding armor penetration to TD via Incendiary Missile, etc. etc).

[ellenbec]

My projected questions:

 

1) Tank PvE/PvP

 

Within the tanking sphere of both PvE and PvP, Shield Tech is seen as a second, if not third class, tank behind Juggernaut and Assassins. In the PvE section, the only reason to bring a Shield Tech over a Assassin is due to our lower squish value. We can handle taking a hit better than a Assassin can, which has been proven countless times via math, raid parses, and first person experience posted over in the Sin and Shadow forums by those most experienced on the topic. The issues that Shield Tech has though are small, but still issues none the less.

1) Grapple - Grapple is considered to be a high threat modified ability, used as a pull in PvE by tanks to handle runaway adds, and to engage bosses for a large burst of threat. The problem though, if you compare this ability to the Assassin counterpart, is the actual threat value for Grapple. The value is approximately 2500, whereas Force Pull for Assassins is valued at 9000 (no BDZ jokes please). I understand though that Grapple is usable by all specs of PT, whereas Force Pull is a talent in the Darkness tree. It would be easy though to add a threat value increase through a talent high in the Shield tech tree. By placing it there you would not impact in any way the PvE side usage of Grapple by either Pyro or AP.

2) The lack of a Force/Tech CD - Shield Tech's DCD set is decent as it is, the cool down time, the protection level, and the type of protection that is given is on a level that is passable. But comparing it to the suite of Cool Downs that Assassins and Juggernauts bring to the table, we are considered quite lacking. The nature of the damage reduction type, pure immunity, and strength of their DCD for the cool down time that they have puts us at a lacking, in both PvE and PvP. In both sections, Energy Shield gives us good damage reduction, but the immunity to damage that Juggernauts and Assassins have makes it seem like nothing at all. The addition of another Cool Down, one that affects Force/Tech, or gives us blanket immunity much like Juggernauts and Assassins have would give us a step in the right direction.

3) Shielding attacks vs Defending attacks - Many of our talents and our abilities are centered around shielding attacks, i.e. Heat Screen, heat venting, increased absorb and shield chance. But, according to the current theorycrafting presented by KeyboardNinja and dipstik, for most, if not all content and gearing up to a certain point stacking Defensive rating at the cost of absorb and shield is actually the best possible survival stat and we stack minimal amounts of shield, and no absorb at all until a certain total stat pool. The higher our Defensive chance is, based upon the two roll attack system that is employed in this game, the less of a chance we have to actively shield and absorb damage.

 

Question - With Shield Tech, why is there such a low threat value of Grapple compared to Force Pull, do you as the Development Team see Shield Tech as not needing another Cool Down to cover Force/Tech damage or pure damage immunity like you gave to Juggernauts and Assassins, and why is the current gearing survival model so dependent upon Defense Rating and makes us forgo Shield and Absorb even though our tree has 3 talents that buff our Absorb, 1 talent that buffs Shield, and 1 talent that buffs Defense. Is the Math and theorycrafting listed by KBN and dipstik wrong compared to what your in house metrics are for Shield Tech gearing, and how do you see us actually suppose to be gearing?

 

Will finish after I get home from work tonight...

[Brunner_Venda]

So much to respond to here.

 

I agree that AP should probably take a back seat. Even though I want my retractable blade fixed.

 

Before I start, I'll mention that running AP with no crit is a bad thing, because you need your flamethrower ticks to crit to do any damage with that.

 

I really think we should hand pyro, tanks, and PVE players all three of our questions this time.

 

A few ideas:

Pyro: I would start with the PVP and PVE sets. Basically, without the 15% MERC rail shot crit bonus on the PVP eliminator set, pyro parses absolutely terrible. With that 15% bonus, the spec has a 40-45% rail crit chance total, and it parses up right with AP, and is competitive in PVP. That completely screws the PVE players though, and forces them to play AP or tank. PVP players are stuck with a two point bonus that doesn't do anything, because it boosts merc skills, not PT.

 

If we can't fix gear sets, could we add a rail shot crit bonus somewhere to the PT tree? Let us build a three stack of *something* using TD, Incendiary Missile, and Flame sweep, and let that proc a 15% crit bonus and armor pen increase on our next rail shot. Add some complexity and fun to the class and rotation.

 

More rail shot crits means harder hits, more burst, more damage. Both PVE and PVP need this.

 

Tank: Passive mitigation increase is a must, and I think a flat elemental bonus is fair. I duel the best tanks I know as AP and it is not even a close or fair fight. Most of my damage is elemental, and skips right through all that heavy armor, and the auto crit rail shot hops right through defense and shield chance.

 

Another tank issue: can you maybe consider a slight boost in damage to flame engine? Since tanks just ate a nerf to flame thrower. Most would take the extra heat point for the damage increase. To keep from overpowering AP and pyro, add it to flame engine, which is way out of our reach.

 

PVE: I would leave this to the many many experts on threat generation and management. I have a guy in our guild who knows all of this off the top of his head. I don't PVE outside of the solo content.

[ellenbec]

Questions Part 2

 

Pyro PvP/PvE

 

1) The current DPS profile for the Pyrotech spec, even including the upcoming buffs is still woefully below what other AC specs are able to put out. Per KeyboardNinja's post in another thread in this subforum:

Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja

 

On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low.

If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.

 

KBN is considered by many here as one of the top theorycrafters and math geeks on the forums. He is also the Class Rep for Sentinels and for Shadows, so the Development Team know how dedicated he is to this game and the player base. As was stated before during the Vanguard posting, yes the buffs seen with the 2.4 patch as well as Burnout and Armor Reduction will improve the DPS output of Pyrotech, the numbers as mathed out barely bring them in line with those ACs that are also parsing at the lower end of the spectrum, within the 2700-2900. This will bring Pyro still below KBN's current 7.6% evaluated damage difference between the PvE DPS

 

Top end damage in 72 gear (discounting Sabo) adjusting for executes and armor debuff: 3250 (hybrid sniper and lethality op). Low end damage in 72 gear adjusting for executes and armor debuff: 3000 (focus sentinel). That's a gap of 7.6%, which is just outside Bioware's stated balance goals for the DPS specs (5%).

 

2) The current make up for Pyro lacks burst and the ability to apply pressure to healers due to DoT cleansing and the inability to apply hard hitting burst. Yes, Pyro can apply steady pressure, but in the current meta scheme of cleanses and healing that pressure is eliminated.

Pre 2.0, through the use of talents, Pyro's Rail Shot was able to apply pressure and deliver the hard hitting burst that the spec needed to be competitive in both PvP and PvE. The only way though that is obtainable now is through the 4p PvP Eliminator set bonus, which brings Rail Shot's crit chance to a level where it can actually impact DPS parses and turn the tide in a PvP battle. By doing this though, it forces anyone who is serious about speccing Pyrotech to devote time and effort into farming for the full 4p set, including PvE players who, due to using the lower stats of Aim, will actually be negatively affecting their possible DPS output, possibly negating the gain from the 4pc set bonus.

 

Question:

With the Math and theorycrafting presented, would the further adjustment of talents and abilities, such as adding in Armor Penetration to Thermal Detonator in addition to the added damage boost, this could be accomplished by tying it to Incendiary Missile, or make it a stacking buff through DoT tick/applications much like PTF for AP, and/or the changing of current set bonuses, the PvE Eliminator and Combat Tech 4p bonus is only a increase on Rail Shot's damage by 8%, with the 2p Combat Tech being a 15 second reduction in Explosive Fuel's Cooldown. A change to something similar to the PvP Eliminator 4p would bring more burst and punch to the spec, does Pyrotech's damage output match the current metric that your Development Team is working with, and if it isn't then how do you see any adjustments made to the metric, as well as our own current math and theorycrafting to bring them more in line?

[ellenbec]

Question 3

 

PvE/PvP DPS utility

 

1) Within PvE, Powertech is a purely melee dps class. Yes I know that it was stated during the Vanguard Q/A that we do have some ranged abilities, but truth be told, we are a 10m and under dps class. Rapid Shot, Rail Shot, Explosive Dart, and Missile Blast all carry a 30m range; for AP Flame Thrower (10m frontal cone), Retractible Blade (4m), Rocket Punch (4m), Flame Sweep (5m AoE) and Flame Burst (10m) are all 10m and under range, and for Pyrotech include Incendiary Missile, Thermal Detonator are both 10m abilities. These attacks form most of the core of both Pyrotech and AP's priority list of abilties, while weaving in Rapid Shot for Heat Management, Rail Shot on proc of either PPA, or Charged Gauntlet, Explosive Dart's Damage per Heat is barely usable, only if there is NOTHING available and we have the Heat to spare, and Missile Blast is completely and utterly useless in both PvP and PvE due to the abysmal DpH ratio, the Damage in general, and the worthless AoE splash damage.

Due to being purely a Melee DPS class, we are subject to more Boss localized damage and affects (i.e. Annihilation Droid's stun and knockback, Gharj's Pounce attack to name a few), and as such are, depending on the fight and mechanics, required to vacate our 10m and down range to avoid being caught in these attacks, which a) reduces outgoing DPS due to not being able to use the primary attacks, which all have a 10m and less range and b) applies more healing needed from the Healing group. Ranged DPS though can negate this damage purely by being outside of the Bosses' primary body zone, allowing for them to keep uptime on the Boss to an optimal level. In addition to having to flee this radius, Powertechs, unlike other pure Melee DPS, have one of the worst Gap Closing abilities available to them in Hydrolic Overrides. The 30% run speed is barely noticeable, compared to something such as Force Speed, Exfiltrate, or Force Leap.

Beyond our slower Gap Closing, we also bring little in Raid Utility and Debuffing beyond the ability to switch Cylinders and taunt. Yes, both Assassins and Juggernauts also are able to do this, but Juggernauts are still able to apply Armor Reduction base line through Sundering Assault usage and Assassins are able to use all of their Cooldown package to help assist in Damage Reduction. Powertechs on the other hand, if we were to switch Cylinders and taunt to emergency tank, we are lacking 1 Cool Down in Oil Slick and we are unable to apply Combust's Damage Reduction debuff which in turns increases the already higher incoming damage profile that would be happening due to lack of defensive stats. Yes though, Juggernauts and Assassins would have the same relative incoming damage profile that a dps specced and geared Powertech would, but the Utility provided of switching to emergency tank is lower than that of a Sin or Jugg. In addition to this, a AP or Pyrotech brings no raid debuffs beyond a specced slow for Pyrotech and AP or a raid buff/cool down, such a the Sniper Bubble or Bloodthirst and Predation.

 

2) Pyrotech's utility unfortunately is centered mostly around the ability to slow those around to allow for others to bring down the opposition. This is brought about due to the nature of Pyrotech's current damage profile. One that lacks the heavy on demand burst, and high heavy pressure that other AC's are able to provide, as well as the majority of Pyrotech's damage being cleans-able by healers, as well as some non healer ACs.

Advanced Prototype's utility is (within the upcoming Arena world) moderately better, slow application on targets, increased burst, and within a specific Arena Group make up, (insert Dongcleave information). The big issue though for Advanced Prototype damage output is the severe issue with the bulk of the outgoing damage and burst; Flame Thrower being a 10m cone attack. In order to maximize outgoing damage of Flame Thrower, AP must a) have 3 stacks of PTF b) have a large clump of Enemy PC players in front of them, preferably at the 9m to just under 10m in order to maximize damage and c) all targeted Enemy PC players must remain within that 9m-10m range. If they move closer to the Powertech, further away from the Powertech, or strafe either left or right, they negate as much as all of the incoming damage to them.

Beyond this, there is still the lack of group cooldown/defensive cooldown applicable by both Pyrotech and Advanced Prototype.

There is also the issue of Gap Closing, which was also brought up within the PvE utility part. Yes, Grapple is a Gap Closer, but it is also affected by Resolve, at some point Grapple will be negated and any kind of Gap will remain in place. Hydrolic Overrides does provide some run speed increase, but compared to Force Leap/Obliterate, Exfiltrate, and Force Speed, the speed gain is minor if negated completely.

 

Question

The lack of support abiltiies, i.e. raid buffs/debuffs, Gap Closing, and On Demand/Controllable Burst, places the entire Powertech AC below almost every other AC. Is this attributed to the fact that we have a tank spec? And if so, why is it that Assassins and Juggernaut dps bring more to the table? With all of the above listed, what is the Utility that a Pyrotech and Advanced Prototype is suppose to bring to both a competitive and non-competitive PvP environment, as well as a progressive and non-progressive PvE evironment?