Please make PvE actually PvE-only

[Lugosi]

When the person is going out of their way to ensure that you are going to get flagged though there is a problem.

 

Agreed

 

A problem that has a solution that would stop said griefers in their tracks yet still allow people who CHOOSE to PvP to do so.

 

Agreed

 

The point is, someone doing PvE content on a PvE server in a PvE area should not have to go out of their way to avoid being flagged, yet that seems to be the general response to those people. The same logic, as I pointed out earlier, as blaming the mugging victim for walking down the street minding their own business. Sorry but that is just not an acceptable answer when there are ways that Bioware can stop it from happening.

 

Maybe they shouldn't have to go out of their way to not get flagged. However, a little awareness of what's going on around you can go along way. Griefers are going to grief, dooshes are going to doosh. Don't let that **** ruin your day. But condemning an entire group of people and play style, and calling for the complete removal of PvP from the event because of a select few is over reacting.

[Lugosi]

Bad argument here. Voluntarily entering a PVP match that clearly defined as a PVP match where players defend the objectives from other players (rather then Mobs) is completely different then the situation at hand.

 

 

Kind of like voluntarily entering a PvP zone to do a quest specifically labelled as PvP.

[mikebevo]

I never said it didn't have to have a cool down. The issue is the auto flagging not the auto UNFLAGGING. Either way it would still be preferable to what is in place now, where people on a PvE server doing PvE content has to completely change the PvE game play to acquiesce to people who decide they are going to be a douche and try to auto flag you so they can feel like a "big man".

Again you are only looking at one side of the problem and most likely will even create more...The cooldown I was talking about would be with your magic switch, I personally think it would only be feasible if you were to make it so that it could only be turned on or more importantly off in a safe zone and with a 2 to 5 min cooldown, otherwise I can think right now of a couple of exploits unscrupulous players could use. However, that really isn't the problem, the problem is the exploits normal player can't think of.

 

So again, as long as it solves your issue, fix it and let other suffer.

Edited July 25, 2013 by mikebevo

[Blackardin]

That is not the same. What would be the same is telling the potential mugging victim to be aware of their surroundings see if someone looks like they are suspiciously following you and if they seem to want to cause harm. Get out of the area to where its safe.

 

What if you have to work in that area and have to walk from the parking garage to your office? ;p

 

See, you will never see this demonstrated in a criminal hearing, not ever. The only time it was ever employed was in cases of rape (she dressed provocatively), but it was, and is not excepted. "awareness", and the ability to determine criminal intent is not a responsibility of any civilian, ever (well, within reason). Civilians are not qualified to make such determinations, and cannot. Most trained law enforcement officials cannot, at a glance, do this. It is not at all an argument or excuse applied to victims of any crime.

 

It further falls short because with PVP, there is no avoiding when a player is free to roam the entire area, can stalk you, can even stealth and ambush you.

 

These arguments put forth are not really strong support for this issue....which is another reason the golden rule exists.....it is the only logical functioning solution.

[Blackardin]

Kind of like voluntarily entering a PvP zone to do a quest specifically labelled as PvP.

 

Once again, it is not labeled, and is not PVP. That is the entirety of the issue. It is, by all definition, a PVE event where one must subject themselves to the PVP environment in order to complete a player vs environment goal.

 

Big difference. Huge. ;p

[slim_shady]

I'm tired of PvP-flagged people intentionally jumping in front of the quest objectives I am trying to use, accidentally attacking and getting flagged, and then having a bunch of PvP people kill me.

 

I'm on a PvE-server.

 

I don't want to PvP.

 

I have no intention of PvPing.

 

This kind of stupid thing is what is driving me away.

I posted this earlier in a different thread, I am thinking this is what happened to my group, people already flagged jumped in while we was attacking the droids.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkDisturbed View Post

Hey, you should probably unflag yourself, only the area that contains [PvP] quests and are specifically marked as PvP are world PvP areas if you're not flagged.

 

The Gree event is borked, I was not in a PVP zone nor was I flagged for PVP. But when my group was minding our own business killing the droids for PT during the melee myself and 2 other members became flagged and of course there was a group of flagged ****heads already there who took advantage of the situation, I really don't care if I live or die in a game but through all the lag and droids it was nearly impossible to tell what was going in until to late. I agree with the OP if I want to PVP then it should be my choice. I am there for the Gree grind not for PVP. I know this has happened to others there at the Gree as well.. - BW fix this stupid crap.

[BCelts]

NOBODY CAN FORCE YOU TO PVP on a PvE server in this MMO.

 

There is a factual disconnect here, I think. I believe your above statement is incorrect. I think it is incorrect because a stealthed player, invisible to me, can lurk in a group of PVE enemies and, when I use my AoE attack in the PVE enemies, cause me to be flagged. Your response to this argument from what I understand is that this type of griefing is abhorrent, but rare and avoidable with a little awareness.

 

The "avoidability" (and who should bear the burden of avoiding) is where we apparently disagree. I do not think I can be aware of this stuff when doing my PVE content at all times. Nor do I really want to be. I'd rather lose myself in the game then be wary of griefing tactics. I also believe it is unfair to put the burden on the PVE player of avoiding unwanted PVP conduct in PVE areas on PVE servers.

 

However, I do understand your concern about implementing a fix - stated early in this thread or another - of creating a "hello kitty" game (if I am mis-attributing it is non-intentional). I generally despise regulation/rules that create worse issues/inefficiencies/complexities than the problems they try to solve. But this is not one of those cases in my opinion. There appears no legitimate reason why AoE damages should trigger an auto-flag. The simple step of preventing an auto-flag triggering from AoE damage ONLY seems to prevent what you likely believe is abhorrent behavior without limiting PVP gameplay at all, right? This is not a burdensome fix. This does not affact legitimate PVP gameplay. There is no way that this causes any negative effect, right? Why is this not the right answer for everybody's gameplay perspective (other than people who like to take advantage of this loophole)?

[MillionsKNives]

Once again, it is not labeled, and is not PVP. That is the entirety of the issue. It is, by all definition, a PVE event where one must subject themselves to the PVP environment in order to complete a player vs environment goal.

 

Big difference. Huge. ;p

 

Except that all PVP gree quests are labeled....[PVP]

[BCelts]

Except that all PVP gree quests are labeled....[PVP]

 

If you read back a little farther, these are not concerns about legitimate PVP play in PVP areas. It is a griefing discussion about tricking people into PVP on PVE servers in PVE areas.

[Stoofa]

Once again, it is not labeled, and is not PVP. That is the entirety of the issue. It is, by all definition, a PVE event where one must subject themselves to the PVP environment in order to complete a player vs environment goal.

 

Big difference. Huge. ;p

 

That would be except for the quests which ARE labelled PvP.

[Lugosi]

Once again, it is not labeled, and is not PVP. That is the entirety of the issue. It is, by all definition, a PVE event where one must subject themselves to the PVP environment in order to complete a player vs environment goal.

 

Big difference. Huge. ;p

 

You're wrong.

 

"The Secant’s arrival has changed the terms of the battle on Ilum. This is a PvP region restricted to groups of four players competing over limited resources to achieve daily mission objectives. Operations groups are disallowed in the Southern Bowl, but on PvP servers, the Northern Bowl will still host large-scale conflicts between the Empire and the Republic.

 

Many repeatable missions are available at each research camp, and those that require entering the Southern Bowl are flagged as [PvP]. These [PvP] missions do not directly require killing players, but the nature of the objectives will pit your group against all others in the region as you compete for limited resources in a relatively dense area. Additionally, the Secant’s Droids™ are weaker in the Southern Bowl, making Heroic objectives easier to complete if your group risks a foray into the contested area."

Edited July 25, 2013 by Lugosi

[MillionsKNives]

If you read back a little farther, these are not concerns about legitimate PVP play in PVP areas. It is a griefing discussion about tricking people into PVP on PVE servers in PVE areas.

 

Perhaps you should read back yourself. The specific chain of conversation to which I'm responding (which I quoted by the way) is discussing the actual PVP quests in the PVP zone.

[MisterBlackJack]

Bad argument here. Voluntarily entering a PVP match that clearly defined as a PVP match where players defend the objectives from other players (rather then Mobs) is completely different then the situation at hand.

 

What we are talking about here is a PVE event, where one challenges the environment in order to reach the goals not a defined, queued warzone where the entirety of the event is based on Player vs. Player challenge. This example how we do normally separate PVP and PVE.

 

 

 

Try to refrain from implying that my intellect is lacking if you cannot put forth a valid argument worth debating. You are entitled to your opinion, but not the ad hominem. ;p

 

again wrong. This is not a Soley pve event. This is Primarly a PvE event with PvP quests along with the event.. But the 2 Quests that we are speaking of just points to how what you stated validates my argument. When you pick up the Quest it clearly states PvP in the Title line of the Quest you are thereby VOLUNTARILY agreeing to freely engage in Open World PvP. Picking up the Quest from the Mission Terminal is no different than hitting the Queue button on the Warzone UI.

[mikebevo]

I do not think I can be aware of this stuff when doing my PVE content at all times.

Then please don't do harder mode operations or at least state that before going into the operation for everyone to see.

 

I also love the agrument about having to change playing style to avoid using AoEs because of the risk, yeah not like that never happens in strictly PvE content... Ever use AoEs on the adds on Operator IX, in HM or NiM TfB, anyone?

Edited July 25, 2013 by mikebevo

[MisterBlackJack]

What if you have to work in that area and have to walk from the parking garage to your office? ;p

 

See, you will never see this demonstrated in a criminal hearing, not ever. The only time it was ever employed was in cases of rape (she dressed provocatively), but it was, and is not excepted. "awareness", and the ability to determine criminal intent is not a responsibility of any civilian, ever (well, within reason). Civilians are not qualified to make such determinations, and cannot. Most trained law enforcement officials cannot, at a glance, do this. It is not at all an argument or excuse applied to victims of any crime.

 

It further falls short because with PVP, there is no avoiding when a player is free to roam the entire area, can stalk you, can even stealth and ambush you.

 

These arguments put forth are not really strong support for this issue....which is another reason the golden rule exists.....it is the only logical functioning solution.

 

1. That is a bad analogy. having to work implies that its being forced on you. which is not the case here. You don't have to do the quest. This is more like you voluntering to work at a Maximum Security Prison. You know of the dangers when you take the job. Therefore you are responsible for using your streets smarts to avoid danger as much as possible.

 

2. But even if we use the work senario. You choose to work there and you obviously did your research about it the area having high crime rates. So Knowing the potential dangers, you should use your street smarts to avoid dangeer. People live in dangerous areas all the time but they use their street smarts to avoid being caught up in the danger. you must be smarter with your surroundings.

 

3. Nobody is making the case of civilians knowing criminal intent. However it is expected of Civilians to know their surroundings and take actions to get out of dangerous surroundings. This is taught to kids as early as FIRST GRADE. Don't talk to Strangers. Don't accept things from Strangers. Be careful of your surroundings. This is all tought to us at a young age. And your telling me you shouldn't expect MMO players to use what is taught to 5-6 year olds?

[MisterBlackJack]

There is a factual disconnect here, I think. I believe your above statement is incorrect. I think it is incorrect because a stealthed player, invisible to me, can lurk in a group of PVE enemies and, when I use my AoE attack in the PVE enemies, cause me to be flagged. Your response to this argument from what I understand is that this type of griefing is abhorrent, but rare and avoidable with a little awareness.

 

The "avoidability" (and who should bear the burden of avoiding) is where we apparently disagree. I do not think I can be aware of this stuff when doing my PVE content at all times. Nor do I really want to be. I'd rather lose myself in the game then be wary of griefing tactics. I also believe it is unfair to put the burden on the PVE player of avoiding unwanted PVP conduct in PVE areas on PVE servers.

 

However, I do understand your concern about implementing a fix - stated early in this thread or another - of creating a "hello kitty" game (if I am mis-attributing it is non-intentional). I generally despise regulation/rules that create worse issues/inefficiencies/complexities than the problems they try to solve. But this is not one of those cases in my opinion. There appears no legitimate reason why AoE damages should trigger an auto-flag. The simple step of preventing an auto-flag triggering from AoE damage ONLY seems to prevent what you likely believe is abhorrent behavior without limiting PVP gameplay at all, right? This is not a burdensome fix. This does not affact legitimate PVP gameplay. There is no way that this causes any negative effect, right? Why is this not the right answer for everybody's gameplay perspective (other than people who like to take advantage of this loophole)?

 

No it doesn't. It will only flag you if you target said stealther.

[wishingwell]

it also involved his companion smacking my companion.

 

After a few things that happened last night, I am pretty convinced that there is something going on where people use their companions to flag other people. The most obvious case was when I was out doing the Gree dailies with a guildmate and we were both level 50, so we were probably seen as easy pickings. Regardless, we were off on our own, out of the way of most traffic, fighting some dogs next to a crystal, when I notice a flagged companion right next to me. Suddenly, my companion takes some damage and I'm flagged. Guy runs up and starts attacking me, of course.

 

Now, I was healing. The only AOE I used was my puddle. I double-checked to make sure my companions AOEs were off, and they were. My guildmate did not get flagged until I said, "Hey, this guy is attacking me." We proceeded to wipe the floor with him, then we waited out our flags in the base and continued on with our questing.

 

However... the system is obviously not working as intended. Even workarounds do not work all the time. There is definitely something wrong. Did his companion AOE us somehow? Did my puddle somehow trigger something because of his companion standing in it? I don't know. But something DID happen to get me flagged even though I never even attacked anything, much less him or his companion.

 

Other things I have seen that I have reported as bugs... randomly getting the "reduced healing" debuff for engaging in PVP even though I am not flagged. Getting that same debuff and having it not go away without a relog; I'm pretty sure that one happens when an enemy companion does some sort of AOE nearby, whether it be an attack or a heal (or vice-versa, my heals/my comp's heals are too close to a flagged player/companion). And my favorite... companion attack AOEs getting you flagged and completely ignoring everything about AOEs no longer being able to get you flagged.

 

So, yeah, are there things you can do to avoid/prevent getting flagged if you don't want to? Absolutely. Does it work all the time, and are there no issues with this system? Absolutely not. It's definitely flawed.

[Andryah]

There is a factual disconnect here, I think. I believe your above statement is incorrect. I think it is incorrect because a stealthed player, invisible to me, can lurk in a group of PVE enemies and, when I use my AoE attack in the PVE enemies, cause me to be flagged. Your response to this argument from what I understand is that this type of griefing is abhorrent, but rare and avoidable with a little awareness.

 

I have addressed this already, at least twice in this thread.

 

Don't AoE in a mixed zone UNLESS:

1) you know for a fact your AoE skill will not hit an opposing player if you are not flagged.

2) you don't know if there are stealthers or not.

 

It's not like AoE skills being used with caution mean anything other then it takes a bit longer to kill your PvE targets. If you spend all of your time in a mixed zone.. this would be a mild annoyance IMO. If you play a variety of content and zones.. you rarely even face the potential for inconvenience.

 

Again.. I am walking my talk here. I am giving advice that:

1) I follow

2) has served me well in this MMO and others.

 

Generally speaking.. when I am out PvEing.. I don't want to be distracted by PvP of any type. And I have no issue with the current mechanics. Why? Because I am in complete control of my flag for PvP. You can be as well.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Hyfy]

That is not the same. What would be the same is telling the potential mugging victim to be aware of their surroundings see if someone looks like they are suspiciously following you and if they seem to want to cause harm. Get out of the area to where its safe.

 

That is essentially the same thing we are talking here. If you see a player who is clearly trying to entice you into pvp or find ways to flag you then leave then go to a different area and do your quests there.

 

What we are saying is use your street smarts to detect danger rather than simply walk into a potentially dangerous area with rose colored glasses on like nothing can happen.

 

You are still missing the point. I shouldn't have to worry about being flagged while doing exactly what I described, especially when there is a way to stop it from ever happening In the first place. And my point is still valid because blame is being placed on the victim here as well as in my example which is what the whole point of that example was. Onus should not be placed on the offended player to avoid being briefed, the onus should be on the offending player and ultimately Bioware to stop it from happening.

[Hyfy]

Agreed

 

 

 

Agreed

 

 

 

Maybe they shouldn't have to go out of their way to not get flagged. However, a little awareness of what's going on around you can go along way. Griefers are going to grief, dooshes are going to doosh. Don't let that **** ruin your day. But condemning an entire group of people and play style, and calling for the complete removal of PvP from the event because of a select few is over reacting.

 

 

Wait, I didn't call for.the ouster of PvP players. I .merely suggested a modification of an existing system in the game that could be applied to the flagging system that would stop the auto flagging of people who do not choose to PvP. What I'm talking about is the mechanic that stops you from buffing, healing, and just in general interacting with someone who is in a conversation with a NPC could be modified to apply to people who are not flagged vs flagged. So unless the non flagged player physically turns on their flag or goes into an area that automatically flags you nothing they cast or do will interact with or affect the PvP player whether on the opposing faction or same faction. So if they start running in front of your objective to get you to accidently target them and attack the effect of said attack/heal/spell/etc will do nothing to them. Of course to stop from people abusing that the other way by healing a friend who is flagged and trying to grief someone the same would apply. Unless that healer physically turns it on or goes I to the auto flagging area his heals would have 0 effect on the friendly player. And agjn this sort of mechanic is already in game with people who are in a conversation with an NPC, which stops someone from helping or buffing them all together u til they come out of the convo.

[BCelts]

Then please don't do harder mode operations or at least state that before going into the operation for everyone to see.

 

I also love the agrument about having to change playing style to avoid using AoEs because of the risk, yeah not like that never happens in strictly PvE content... Ever use AoEs on the adds on Operator IX, in HM or NiM TfB, anyone?

 

If I understand you correctly, you believe that it is up to players doing PVE quests on a PVE server to change their styles avoid illegitimate griefing tactics when outside PVP areas. Sure, I can, but I would prefer not to have my style changed by illegitimate tactics but, instead, have it changed by the environment (which is why I am playing PVE). Wouldn't an easy fix to prevent griefing be better for everyone?

[BCelts]

Perhaps you should read back yourself. The specific chain of conversation to which I'm responding (which I quoted by the way) is discussing the actual PVP quests in the PVP zone.

 

If that is the case, I am misreading his emails. I thought he was discussing PVE quests in PVE zones. If you are in a PVP zone you are in, PVP is fair game. That much should be clear to, well, everyone.

[Hyfy]

Again you are only looking at one side of the problem and most likely will even create more...The cooldown I was talking about would be with your magic switch, I personally think it would only be feasible if you were to make it so that it could only be turned on or more importantly off in a safe zone and with a 2 to 5 min cooldown, otherwise I can think right now of a couple of exploits unscrupulous players could use. However, that really isn't the problem, the problem is the exploits normal player can't think of.

 

So again, as long as it solves your issue, fix it and let other suffer.

 

What are you going on about? Can you please at least TRY and stay on the problem here. I even said it can have a cool down or whatever you were babbling about. But that isn't the issue here. The issue is the auto flagging and the system I suggested deals directly with that. Nothing as far as I am concerned would have to change with how you become unflagged. But please don't let me stop you from trying to turn it into some idiotic conversation about how as long as it works for me screw the rest, because NOTHING I mentioned would even to anything like that. And please do continue to argue for PvP players to be able to say it works for me so screw the rest while they continue to intentionally get people to auto flag. So would you like to back up get a better.grip on the conversation here and try again or do you stick with you erroneous conclusions and ill conceived assumptions?

[BCelts]

No it doesn't. It will only flag you if you target said stealther.

 

Many other posts here disagree with this factual assertion. Many instances where people said they laid down an AoE attack on a group of individual NPCs in a PVE area on a PVE server, only to find a stealthed, flagged player in the midst, triggering auto-flag for PVP.

 

If the AoE in that circumstance does not trigger PVP, then I am lost as to what the fuss is about. PVE players can choose to participate in PVP areas or not. Make your own choice, folks. If anyone thinks they have a right to enter a PVP area on a PVE world and not be subject to PVP, well, I disagree.

[GatorAndy]

Link to my thread in suggestions forum regarding a possible fix for this issue:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=665200