Why does Vader remain a robot ?

[Kayriel]

Hi guys ,

 

Lately I've been something and i don't seem to find an answer to this. I did not read the SW books as time does not allow me , so i am hoping that some of you might know the answer

So , my question is this : since we all can agree based on various movies and games in the SW universe that the tech at the time Vader lived was pretty advanced , why didn't he commission a group of scientists to clone or simply grow his damaged organs and limbs and have them attach said parts to him ? Instead of living in his weird life suit for about 20 years or so. I mean from the TFU games it is obvious that the camioans and most likely other scientist groups could clone force users and for what i am talking about , there is no need for a full clone , just use some tissue and engineer the missing stuff.

This way , he could still reach his full potential and not restrict himself the way he did( not to mention he wouldn't have to look like a masochistic sliced and shriveled hairless tomato all the time ) . I'm thinking that with a full living body , even though some of the pieces were replaced with engineered spares , would be much more preferable to a state of constant pain and dependency of wires( I'm imagining him with a few faulty wires in his hands and because of this malfunction hes constantly flipping off the mofs in a meeting instead of killing them for failing him or something ) and oil so he wouldn't squeak when he met the emperor and stuff like that.

Please give your thoughts on this , and if someone knows a source from where i could get an answer please leave a reply.

Edited for grammer

Edited July 22, 2013 by Kayriel

[BenKatarn]

What good is a clone body for Vader if he does not know how to transfer his essence into that clone body?

 

"To cheat death" has been the goal of countless Sith Lords since time in memorial and quite frankly, Vader never was a scholar.

 

And as far as relacing damaged organs and limbs with cloned ones, I do not believe that his damaged body would accept new parts successfully, not to mention that I think that Palpatine would not allow it. Vader had the potential to become more powerful than Palpatine or Yoda, but he lost most of that potential when he was beaten by Obi-Wan, which made him the ideal servant for Palpatine, thus ending the Rule of Two by making Palpatine the single ruler over the entire galaxy.

[Cleux]

I believe the cyborg components of Vader was to symbolize his detachment from his humanity.

[AlexDougherty]

What good is a clone body for Vader if he does not know how to transfer his essence into that clone body?

 

"To cheat death" has been the goal of countless Sith Lords since time in memorial and quite frankly, Vader never was a scholar.

 

And as far as relacing damaged organs and limbs with cloned ones, I do not believe that his damaged body would accept new parts successfully, not to mention that I think that Palpatine would not allow it. Vader had the potential to become more powerful than Palpatine or Yoda, but he lost most of that potential when he was beaten by Obi-Wan, which made him the ideal servant for Palpatine, thus ending the Rule of Two by making Palpatine the single ruler over the entire galaxy.

 

Palpatine might be able to stop a replace everything approach, but Vader should have been able to replace parts slowly, replace these damaged organs, wait, replace an arm, wait, etc.

 

The main problem is growing the parts, if you accellerate the growing process, the parts age quicker and die too soon, if you wait eighteen or so years for them to mature properly, then you need a secure facility, which Vader Lacks (assuming he wants/needs a facility Palpatine can't saboutage). Admittedly some internal organs could be grown in twelve to fourteen years, but most would require eighteen years minimum so that they are the correct size.

[Kayriel]

@BenKatarn - i am not talking about essence transfer here , i am talking about replacing the artificial organs and limbs with living ones , particularly ones created using his own genetic template , so this way he would be able to wield the force with more ease and to a greater extent and without limitations

@Cleux - interesting point , even if a bit illogical , think of Darth Marr , the guy is really powerful and he is always hidden inside his armor , which is designed to instill fear in his enemies , so the same effect could be achived , but in different ways , my only issue is that if dehumanization would be the point , Vader would accept it but it would be a detriment to his growth in power, something which a Sith always strives for

Also , cloning is only as an example , this could easily be done , by simply obtaining the internal organs from compatible "donors" ( this is done even today , with the tech from Vader's era , something like this could be done even more easily ) , and for the limbs... i don't know... same thing possibly ?! Find a guy with the right size and build compared to Vader , alter the stuff through some gene manipulation to have 100% acceptance from the host and replace the stuff?! The compatibility thing wouldn't even be an issue , since we're talking about a force user with the resources of an entire galaxy at his disposal , and the time as well , i mean 20+ years from the moment he was smoked by Obi. Also , we know that the emperor doesn't keep his eye on Vader 100% of time , i mean , again same example , TFU 2 , he had a facility on Camino , where he cloned an entire army of reject Galens in secret , untill he perfected the process.

Edited for typos.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Kayriel

[AlrikFassbauer]

Read the book "Shadows Of THe Empire" - it's one of the rare occations where you'll learn about Vader, how he thinks between TESB & ROTJ.

 

He is working on improving his natural breathing, for example.

 

 

From a drama/story point of view, it is of course obvious that Vader's suit symbolized his departure from Humanity - which begins slowly with losing his arm in AOTC.

 

His face is revealed when he arrives back at Humanity again - and his full body is later restoired when he gets together with his former friends (pre Special edition looking).

 

This just from the dramatic perspective.

 

Luke almost took a similar route, by the way : He lost his hand, and dressed himself in black, later on.

 

Had he survived and taken Vader's place, then he would have had to use a similar suit as well, after the Emperor's damages to him.

 

General Grievous was not part of "Humanity" at all. To him, the death was rather a gift. Because he would have never had a chance to be "restored" again.

Edited July 22, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Callaron]

Read the book "Shadows Of THe Empire" - it's one of the rare occations where you'll learn about Vader, how he thinks between TESB & ROTJ.

 

He is working on improving his natural breathing, for example.

 

I'll have to read that one, thanks!

I always figured it was a matter of Palpatine not wanting it to happen and Vader not caring enough to really go against his Master's wishes.

After all he did ruin everything he once stood for and destroyed all the people that once mattered to him, or at least as far as he knew.

[Sarlegant]

reading too much into Vader...

 

we know about the Sith, via games, books, and movies... Anakin was being groomed a Jedi, not a Sith, none were even known to exist... so what does Vader know about the Sith rule of Two.

 

in fact, think about it... Vader tried to turn Luke, in order to defeat Sidious, and rule the galaxy... but the rule of two doesn't really include an apprentice having an apprentice to kill the master... yes, at one point Vader has a well known video game apprentice, but that's not on the movie timeline... movie-wise, my opinion, Vader wasn't a very good Sith at all... probably his role in destroying the Jedi Temple was more to get the clone troopers into the Temple and maintain the element of surprise longer... I'm sure he killed some Jedi, but obviously the clone troopers could have and did do the same.

 

Anakin, right up until he killed Jedi, and younglings, really had not been in the wrong... I'd argue, that slicing off Windu's hand was the actual lightside choice, as opposed to standing there while Windu killed a defeated Sidious... Sidious may, or may not have been defeated, not the point... real or ruse, Anakin thought him defeated.. Even in his duel with Obi, he still maintained he was still serving the Republic.

 

So, Anakin's main part in destroying the temple, was to seriously put him on a path of no return to the darkside...

 

remember, in the movies, there wasn't alot of redeeming the Sith going on... Maul nor Dooku never got asked to come to the light... that started with Luke trying to turn his "dad" in Return.

 

So, forgetting all the books written filling in the timeline, just thinking movies, what did Vader actually do or know of the darkside... remember, these Sith lords needed a DeathStar... they were just Sith, not these super all powerful Gods sucking life from planets with a thought...

 

just my opinion.

[Seireeni]

Not an expert on Vader, but could it just be too dangerous? Like if you take off the metal parts and then try to attach living tissue to replace it, he could actually die on the table while he was operated?

[Kayriel]

Everyone here seems to be going with the dehumanization theory , thinking the armor and the loss of limbs and vital organs being stages of his transformation . I think that it's something different , since if were going with this theory , if George wanted to make Vader into a monster he could have found a more mistical way , something to do with the force maybe ( thinking of Darth Sion and Nihilus , now those are real dehumanized monsters ) , never read the novels , as i previously said , time does not allow me to do it , but what you said ( @AlrikFassbauer) about his progress with the force to heal himself makes him an idiot in my eyes. I mean , yes the force is this super powerfull energy thing that can make almost everything possible if you have the necessary knowledge , but it all boils down to having an organic body to properly wield it ( even if he was the chosen one and all that , i read on numerous articles that to be able to wield the force to your full potential it must flow through your body , and with the artifical stuff he has on and in him he can't do it, and that's what he was missing and that's why i am wondering if the idea to have the science divisions of the empire work on a solution for granting him human components again never actually occurred to the poor bastard or something else happened.

[Cleux]

@Cleux - interesting point , even if a bit illogical , think of Darth Marr , the guy is really powerful and he is always hidden inside his armor , which is designed to instill fear in his enemies , so the same effect could be achived , but in different ways , my only issue is that if dehumanization would be the point , Vader would accept it but it would be a detriment to his growth in power, something which a Sith always strives for

 

How is what I said illogical?

 

What I said is very logical. He had parts of his body removed thus human parts were removed thus a separation from his humanity this sounds pretty symbolic to me.

 

I did not say it was done as a way to dehumanize Vader but it is symbolic of a detachment from his humanity.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Cleux

[psandak]

First of all, Cyborg, not robot. Picking nits I know .

 

Force sensitive clones are a messy business - they tend to go insane. The Thrawn Trilogy had two of them.

 

Also in the SW universe, as far as I am aware, there is no technology to graft cloned tissue onto an existing humanoid - everything is cybernetics. So it is/was probably not possible to replace Vader's cybernetics with cloned limbs and organs.

 

Lastly, if you read "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader,"

you will find that it took Anakin/Vader a while to adjust to his cybernetic body; his whole fighting style changed because of the "weight" of the armor and the lack of attunement he had with it.

 

To try to replace the armor with "real" body parts probably would have gotten him killed.

 

[captaincr]

I can't remember which book it was that Vader was brooding about the suit, oh wait it was Death Star, which wasn't terrific. But he thought about enhancing the suit. But the mere act of extracting him from the suit would kill him. So even pulling him out of the suit to do organ transplants would have probably been fatal. He was enslaved by Palpatine, enslaved by the suit and enslaved by the Force.

 

On top of that, he just didn't care about the suit anymore, Palpatine in Dark Lord used the Yoda line that they were not basically held back by this crude matter, so the suit eventually wouldn't matter to Anakin as he mastered the force.

[Phorenzyk]

IMO, the reason he never had transplants, and the reason he worked on improving his natural breathing, wasn't because of a danger of rejection or dying on the table or dehumanization or anything like that. He wanted to conquer life and death, and I think he didn't want his...mutilation..to be fixed in any way that wasn't him taking hold of the Force and doing it his own darn self.

[Kayriel]

@Cleux , your right from a symbolic perspective it makes sense , i guess what i wanted to say there , is that if i were in his place i'd try everything at my disposal to get rid of the metal stuff , considering the fact , that from my point of view , the cybernetics , at least to the extent he was modified are a huge disadvantage from every perspective.

@captaincr , as i said in my previous posts , i did not read the books , but from what you are telling me , the part about him not surviving without the suit , that's just lazy writing i think , since , from other articles , that suit has been severely damaged in multiple battles and he had to heal his lungs and breath without it to survive so... you know... i think the writer was just really pushed hard to finish the book and not pay attention to small stuff maybe.

Thank you all for the replies , i am beginning to get a picture or what's been going on in his head

[Arvig]

OP, I've only read your question and not the other replies, so my reply reflects that.

 

My thought on why they didn't regrow limbs and organs for Vader is that despite Star Wars otherwise high tech, they don't seem to be able to do that per-se. Vader gets a mostly cyborg body. Luke gets a cyborg hand. If Bacta (and Kolto in SWTOR/KOTOR) could regrow limbs, they I assume would to that instead of making cyborg limbs and organs. I know SWTOR and KOTOR are about 4000 or so years (if I have that right) before the films but if we assume the tech is the same (on the surface it seems so, with Kolto being the major antibiotic/healing gunk instead of Bacta as far as the "medical goop" goes) we see enough cyborgs in game, NPC's and PC's that again I must assume that limb and organ regrowth isn't possible or isn't seen as practical. Or the tl;dr, Kolto (and in the movies, Bacta) has it's limits when it comes to what it can regenerate. Whole limbs and organs seem to be that limit perhaps.

 

You mention the Kamino cloners. Even they, making clones at an accelerated rate had to take 10 years to make an adult. I half wonder if growing at twice normal rate is the limit, and it just wouldn't be practical otherwise. Remember, at least IMO Vader is not the most patient person, pre or post dark side fall. He probably wouldn't sit around for 10 or more years waiting for such to happen. So even with access to them, there is possibly that issue.

 

There's finally what Palpatine wants. He has a barely alive Vader, probably induced into a coma and/or placed in some form of stasis or maybe even carbonite until they can operate on him. He might not WANT an apprentice that is whole and thus potentially his equal or superior. By having Vader "more machine then man" he can guarentee that Vader stays weaker in the force, but still is strong enough to be useful.

 

I have only read the Thrawn trillogy when it comes to the EU, other then playing KOTOR and of course SWTOR so my knowledge on Vader outside of the films is limited also. But that is my take on why Vader isn't mostly clone tissue.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Everyone here seems to be going with the dehumanization theory ,

 

It is a symbol for me. Really a symbol. A point of Drama, so to say.

 

Like Hamlet holding that Skull in his hands.

 

If people can't see it, then they are just not sensitive enough.

 

 

 

And - besides - Darth Vader's Armor was originally just meant to be a Space Suit - for breathing in the vacuum between the stars.

 

 

 

There's finally what Palpatine wants. He has a barely alive Vader, probably induced into a coma and/or placed in some form of stasis or maybe even carbonite until they can operate on him. He might not WANT an apprentice that is whole and thus potentially his equal or superior. By having Vader "more machine then man" he can guarentee that Vader stays weaker in the force, but still is strong enough to be useful.

 

The evilness of the Emperor/Palpatine/Sidious shines through there : He "reconstructs" Vader to become his mere puppet of Palpatine's mercy.

Vader is a hostage of Palpatine, because he just wouldn't be able to fight against his master and win. Vader just couldn't do that, because he is too weeak now.

And Palpatine could switch Vader's needed machinery off at any point.

 

And even worse : Palpatine is literally what we call "false friends" or "wroing friends" in RL society : Palpatine is Vader's only friend left. Yes, Friend. Because he was Anakin Skywalker's Friend during the Old Republic.

 

Everyone else is dead - most of them killed by Darth Vader himself - and even his wife is dead now - supposedly killed by Darth Vader (indirectly) himself as well.

 

And Palpatine is the only one left.

 

Even that General from the Clone Wars series (forgot his name) cannot be his "Friend" anymore - because he doesn't recognise the Anakin Skywalker behind this giant mask, body and suit anymore.

 

It's like having a brutal & power-hungry Gangsta as your "only true" friend - and him telling you that he ONLY stays your friend if you kill everyone else ...

 

And, besides, THIS is RL, too : Just look at how people recruit "Child-Soldiers" in Africa : They blackmail them into killing their neighbours and even family members, because otherweise they get killed themselves ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children

Edited July 23, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Obadaya]

Seems like something is amiss.

- In SWTOR, doesn't Darth Malgus end up with a rebreather similar to Darth Vader because of his injuries with his fight with Satele?

- In KOTOR, didn't Darth Malak have a prosthetic jaw instead of a regrown part as well?

 

Maybe its not a question of the science, perhaps the prosthetics appeal to the Sith more? Maybe the pain gives them more strength?

[Kayriel]

It seems that my first post stuck with allot of people , regrowth of the organs was just one possible way of doing it , for example , for his lungs , a regular operation from a "willing" donor that is "happy" to provide the spare parts would be another way of going about this , for the internal organs at least . I mean this is done today , if i am not mistaking , you can surgically replace every major organ in your body ( except the Brain for obvious reasons ) if you have the spares and that would not be a problem for the guy who rules the freaking galaxy with as Palatine's second in command , and with the tech at his disposal ( think about it attaching cybernetics to living tissue must be ridiculously complicated , compared to attaching organics to other organics otherwise we would have gone this route as well - making robot spares ) he could have done this , at least for the internal organs at first so no one could suspect if it was an issue of Palpatine knowing.

i guess I'm just insensitive and the symbolism of the suit is lost on me , and the fear of Palpatine thing ,is the same thing i guess , i mean he could hide entire complexes around the galaxy from the albino-raisin faced emperor ( the thing on Kamino , if anyone here played Jedi Academy , there was residence on a planet , forgot the name that was his and the Palpatine never came there ( or at least i got the impresion he didn't )

The

[Minhere]

People make the mistake and think that because in Star Wars, they were able to travel more, that they were so much more advanced than we are. Their travel ability is basically fictitious, and not possible in a completely natural setting as they have in Star Wars. The math works, but nature cannot support it. Other than their ability to streak across the galaxy, nothing of their technology is far beyond our own, including the ability to clone and re-attach organs.

 

Anakin, as Darth Vader, really did not like life. Sometimes we dig too deep for the "answer" when in truth it is the symbolic side of it that is the only answer. This was actually the importance of the scene where Anakin was telling Obi Wan that he hated him. It was also the importance of the scene where the helmet is being put on. The Sith give up their "humanity" in different ways, this was Anakin's way. One would have to assume Darth Vader would WANT his flesh back, and that is just not evident by the storyline. It wasn't a focus of his.

 

So... WHY DOES VADER REMAIN A ROBOT? (I assume you meant cyborg)..... Probably a mix of the technology not being easy or even available, and him not really interested in recovering his flesh. In his final scene, Luke wanted to save him, but he did not want to be saved. That about tells it all.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Minhere

[jedimasterjac]

I'd always assumed it was just too much of a hassle.

 

He can use the Force. He can swing a saber. He can breath. He can see. He can move. Why waste time and effort on a new body?

Edited July 23, 2013 by jedimasterjac

[Dominoris]

How is what I said illogical?

 

What I said is very logical. He had parts of his body removed thus human parts were removed thus a separation from his humanity this sounds pretty symbolic to me.

 

I did not say it was done as a way to dehumanize Vader but it is symbolic of a detachment from his humanity.

 

I have to agree with Cleux. When it comes down to it, the reason for anything in SW is because it is a literary device. It was a work of art written by a man with a poor grasp of science. The SW universe could have the tech to regrow and regenerate the origianl body of any person at any time and Vader would still be a walking machine in a black robe because that's how GL wanted him to look. All black; no emotions or sense of pity. Just a cold and featureless tyrant who does not care about the scars of his own body so why would he give any thought to someone else's pain.

 

Darth Vader is what he is for one reason. Because GL created him that way in order to impart a certian feeling to the viewers when they see him in the movie.

[spac]

I think, IRL, the idea was to make him sound evil and be freaky. In star wars world, he was just that. He spread fear. Humanoid-ish Sith can be just as threatening-- as far as appearances go-- but Vader spread a fear with his voice and breathing. In addition, he couldn't be immortal. And, maybe he actually wanted to be a cyborg.

[Argonloris]

From what I understand about the way things went in the movies, books, and games there were a few things that became problematic. First of is the fact that while some of the things that kept Anikin alive in the suit were medical science, a great deal of it was sith alchemy performed by Palpatine. Vader was pretty much connected to the suit. As for cloning body parts there was a problem with that. Even if they could have good parts replace the damaged pieces they didn't have the cloning facility anymore. The cloning facility was destroyed about the time the empire was formed. That's part of the reason the storm troopers replaced clones as time went on. The only cloning facilities were under the emperors personal lock and key to make replacement bodies. Either Vader was not told of the facilities (which seems likely) or he knew of them but was told they were for use by Palpatine alone.

[Freedannad]

Hi guys ,

 

Lately I've been something and i don't seem to find an answer to this. I did not read the SW books as time does not allow me , so i am hoping that some of you might know the answer

So , my question is this : since we all can agree based on various movies and games in the SW universe that the tech at the time Vader lived was pretty advanced , why didn't he commission a group of scientists to clone or simply grow his damaged organs and limbs and have them attach said parts to him ? Instead of living in his weird life suit for about 20 years or so. I mean from the TFU games it is obvious that the camioans and most likely other scientist groups could clone force users and for what i am talking about , there is no need for a full clone , just use some tissue and engineer the missing stuff.

This way , he could still reach his full potential and not restrict himself the way he did( not to mention he wouldn't have to look like a masochistic sliced and shriveled hairless tomato all the time ) . I'm thinking that with a full living body , even though some of the pieces were replaced with engineered spares , would be much more preferable to a state of constant pain and dependency of wires( I'm imagining him with a few faulty wires in his hands and because of this malfunction hes constantly flipping off the mofs in a meeting instead of killing them for failing him or something ) and oil so he wouldn't squeak when he met the emperor and stuff like that.

Please give your thoughts on this , and if someone knows a source from where i could get an answer please leave a reply.

Edited for grammer

 

Using this logic, wouldn't Padawan Skywalker have had a new arm grown for him when Dooku chopped of his first one? Wouldn't Luke have had a real arm implanted instead of the cybernetic one?