The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Beniboybling]

He still had FAR more experience than Bane ever had, he fought in a time when the Dark Side was more permeable according to Darth Plagueis and he spent from the Exar Kun War to the Dark Wars killing all Jedi he came across.

 

So whilst he may have gone down the Bane route, he still must have been very very experienced and very very well skilled with a lightsaber.

 

He was after all chosen by the greatest duellist of the entire era, age, hell probably the best till the Golden Age of the Jedi, in Exar Kun.

This is very true, but it likely accounts for the majority of his injuries.

 

But yes, Sion clearly knows how to kill Jedi.

 

That said, Bane did train at the feet of Kas'im who was an exceptional lightsaber duelist himself - and he is pretty much undefeated in battle, showing both power and refinement.

[LadyKulvax]

This is very true, but it likely accounts for the majority of his injuries.

 

But yes, Sion clearly knows how to kill Jedi.

 

That said, Bane did train at the feet of Kas'im who was an exceptional lightsaber duelist himself - and he is pretty much undefeated in battle, showing both power and refinement.

 

Whilst Kas'im is impressive, he is unfortunately a victim of the times, the Sith he served with were.... weak, dis-organised and almost all of them lacked real tangible power, he was the best of the best among one of the weakest Sith Orders ever seen.

[Beniboybling]

Whilst Kas'im is impressive, he is unfortunately a victim of the times, the Sith he served with were.... weak, dis-organised and almost all of them lacked real tangible power, he was the best of the best among one of the weakest Sith Orders ever seen.

Lets not forget though that on top of being the greatest swordsman in the galaxy he was also considered to be possibly the greatest who ever lived, that said Bane was unable to best him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Lets not forget though that on top of being the greatest swordsman in the galaxy he was also considered to be possibly the greatest who ever lived, that said Bane was unable to best him.

 

Keyword: Considered, and he hasn't faced anyone else.

 

But anyway kinda going off topic here, so back to....whomever we were debating what was it Malgus vs Traya?

Edited July 22, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Lets not forget though that on top of being the greatest swordsman in the galaxy he was also considered to be possibly the greatest who ever lived, that said Bane was unable to best him.

 

I think he gets pretty over-rated, I mean he beat a Bane that was nowhere near has prime, but then got killed by the collapsing temple entrance, his duelling skills are very impressive, but he still didn't actually kill Bane, he ended up the dead one.

[Selenial]

Ya except with Achilles, he had a weakpoint and wasn't sloppy. Sion doesn't have any particular weakpoints.

 

Also thanks for that mental image of Achilles being a Jedi.

 

He was stupid enough to step on an arrow

[Aurbere]

Whilst Kas'im is impressive, he is unfortunately a victim of the times, the Sith he served with were.... weak, dis-organised and almost all of them lacked real tangible power, he was the best of the best among one of the weakest Sith Orders ever seen.

 

So very true. He was the best of weaklings.

[Selenial]

This is very true, but it likely accounts for the majority of his injuries.

 

But yes, Sion clearly knows how to kill Jedi.

 

That said, Bane did train at the feet of Kas'im who was an exceptional lightsaber duelist himself - and he is pretty much undefeated in battle, showing both power and refinement.

 

The majority of Sions injuries weren't from battle.

 

He was demolished by Traya so he could exist as The Lord of pain, and become immortal as he wanted.

At least, that's what I think happened, if my memory serves.

[sell-dog]

Whilst Kas'im is impressive, he is unfortunately a victim of the times, the Sith he served with were.... weak, dis-organised and almost all of them lacked real tangible power, he was the best of the best among one of the weakest Sith Orders ever seen.

 

Where is it explicitly stated that the Sith of that order (Brotherhood of Darkness) were weak and lacking power? If I recall correctly the only thing that states this is Bane's opinion of how they are ruining the dark side or whatever. Keyword opinion.

 

That Sith Order engaged in a 10 year war with the Republic/Jedi. 10 years > Great Sith War (Kun), Jedi Civil War (Revan/Malak), Sith trio, and Great Hyperspace War (N Sadow). The Quality of the orders I listed is never really questioned that much (except for maybe Revan/Malak) but then I give an example of an Order/War that lasted more than twice as long as the longest of the other previously mentioned conflicts and said order is considered weak? Seems contradicting at first glance.

 

The argument that will come up is that the Jedi of this era are weak too. Again, where is this stated? The only thing that I know of that is stated of the Jedi Order of this time is that they did have a Master who was possibly the best swordsman the Jedi had ever seen to that point. Can't be that weak with her in the front.

 

Unlike previous Sith Orders, the Brotherhood of Darkness was not destroyed/defeated by the Republic/Jedi. Again another feat none of my other listed Sith Orders can claim. Bane's opinion of this Order being weak doesn't imply it really was demonstrated by my comparisons to other orders. (barring a definitive source statement (not Bane's opinion) that states this)

[LadyKulvax]

Erm.... Lord Kaan threw all his army into Ruusan, what happened? they got absolutely demolished by the Army of Light, he resorted to the Thought Bomb after that war losing defeat.

 

Also, the fact that sourcebooks, not just Bane state the same thing as well, makes it practically concrete.

[sell-dog]

Erm.... Lord Kaan threw all his army into Ruusan, what happened? they got absolutely demolished by the Army of Light, he resorted to the Thought Bomb after that war losing defeat.

 

Lord Kaan threw his army into Ruusan after the Army of Light was there then they were in a long long stalemate and then Bane's betrayal thoughtbomb. They did not get demolished by the Army of Light. General Hoth was becoming as out of character/demoralized/depressed as Kaan was.

 

Seriously tho I did not know if it was stated in a sourcebook and thanks for the info

 

Edit: I've only been off and on into EU lore for the past 13ish months so forgive my ignorance. Also I saw the local pharmacist reading Crucible this morning. We talked a bit and he brought up the 501st which I've never really heard much of before as I've been a solo SW EU act. Looked into it a bit. Thoughts on 501st from others?

Edited July 22, 2013 by sell-dog

[LadyKulvax]

Lord Kaan threw his army into Ruusan after the Army of Light was there then they were in a long long stalemate and then Bane's betrayal thoughtbomb. They did not get demolished by the Army of Light. General Hoth was becoming as out of character/demoralized/depressed as Kaan was.

 

Erm no, the Seventh Battle of Ruusan was a resounding victory for the Army of Light, that is why Kaan was desperate enough to trust Bane.

 

They had lost the advantage that they could have gained in the Sixth battle when Farfalla arrived with his 300 Knights and completely turned the tide of Kaan's forces, the Seventh battle was a crushing victory, which was when Kaan activated the Thought Bomb.

[sell-dog]

Erm no, the Seventh Battle of Ruusan was a resounding victory for the Army of Light, that is why Kaan was desperate enough to trust Bane.

 

They had lost the advantage that they could have gained in the Sixth battle when Farfalla arrived with his 300 Knights and completely turned the tide of Kaan's forces, the Seventh battle was a crushing victory, which was when Kaan activated the Thought Bomb.

 

First: Please see my edit

 

Second: When you say "demolish" I think of a literal one sided spanking which yes the 6th and 7th as you say were. The whole Ruusan Campaign (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ruusan_campaign) which was the Brotherhood of Darkness vs Army of Light was not a demolishment as it lasted for 2 years which is longer than the entire Great Hyperspace War, time that Malak was in charage, and the existence of the Brotherhood of Sith. As weak as it may be all I'm saying is that they were very arguably much closer to being successful in their conquest as an Order than several other Sith Orders

Edited July 22, 2013 by sell-dog

[Aurbere]

I find Lord Kaan's success in the war to be due to the groundwork Darth Ruin had laid.

[LadyKulvax]

Whilst this is true it's only because the previous wars absolutely wrecked the Republic, the Brotherhood of Kaan was the very end of the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood was only strong together, not individually, like 99% of the Brotherhood of Kaan was cannon fodder, they were seriously under-trained and churned out within no time at all.

 

Also Bane's opinion is very valid, when he says the Dark Side isn't infinite, this is reflected deeply in the Plagueis novel, his theory is basically canon.

[Beniboybling]

The majority of Sions injuries weren't from battle.

 

He was demolished by Traya so he could exist as The Lord of pain, and become immortal as he wanted.

At least, that's what I think happened, if my memory serves.

That is never directly stated as far as I am aware, Sion says that she 'broke' him but does not explain what that entails.

 

Currently working on that in my fanfic actually.

 

Either way Sion achieved immortality long before he met Traya during the Great Sith War, where he was struck down by an opponent then got back up and killed them

[Selenial]

Currently working on that in my fanfic actually.

 

How dare you throw out teasers like that before you even post the first chapter!!!!

 

HOW DARE YOU >.>

[Beniboybling]

How dare you throw out teasers like that before you even post the first chapter!!!!

 

HOW DARE YOU >.>

I'm working on it!

[Selenial]

Patience, patience my friend.

 

Production is under way, but I'm too busy to really knuckle down and get writing so progress is slow. But once I have the time, I'm going hardcore. Hopefully I'll have it completed early July, but don't quote me on that.

 

Thats right... I'm quoting you on it.

 

 

Also... Answer our kaggath questions....

 

 

Gawwwwwwwd

[tunewalker]

I am so lost as to who the candidates for these last spots even are at the moment. Can we do a feats comparison I am not sure who is even in contention. Best feat I have heard thus far is Traya Force draining the council.

[Beniboybling]

Malgus vs Traya

 

Control

 

Traya: was exceptionally skilled in the use of Force healing which she used to bring both herself and others from the brink of death as well as kill dozens of Sith Assassins simultaneously without raising a finger. She was also skilled in Force concealment and Force cloak, able to hide herself from the Jedi even when in plain sight.

 

Malgus: was incredibly skilled at control and directing his anger, often using it to sustain colossal injury and continue fighting. His Force-powered rage often made him unstoppable. Malgus was also able to conceal his presence. He was also highly skilled in the use of tutanimis.

 

I'd give the edge to Traya in this category, while Malgus has been appraised by the likes of Darth Sidious for his incredible control over his anger. Traya's mastery over healing is unprecedented, and on top of that she has a broader and more refined mastery in this field, that said the gap is by no means large, and is in fact incredibly close.

 

Sense

 

Traya: had a profound ability in shatterpoint which allowed her to perceived 'fractures' in objects, people and the Force itself. She was also incredibly skilled in predicting the future, able to see events that would occur 4,000 years later. Traya was also a skilled telepath, able to communicate with others across vast distances as well as probe the minds of the unwilling. She also forwent her natural sight in favour of sight through the Force.

 

Malgus: had incredibly strong senses, making his able to see through the Force concealment of Jedi.

 

Obviously Traya has shown a lot more in his category and on a much higher level, giving her the edge. However Malgus' senses are by no means lacking, and it is highly impressive that he could see straight through the Force concealment of another Force user.

 

Alter

 

Traya: her most accomplished ability was Force drain, a highly potent technique that could siphon the Force energy of others - Traya used this against the three remaining Jedi Council members to obliterate them entirely, despite them being prepared for an attack. Traya was also proficient in the basic aspects of the Force, especially Force choke which she used to tear through the Force barriers of Darth Sion without a fight.

 

Malgus: is most accomplished in this arena, he has shown exceptional proficiency with Force lightning - able to kill Jedi on the spot, as well as choke them out instantly. His Force screams were strong enough to shatter rock and most impressively experienced Oneness with the dark side of the Force.

 

Malgus' raw power is self evident, yet Traya's is as well. Malgus has dominated Jedi Knights, yet Traya has dominated Jedi Masters. On top of that she choked Sion into submission with little difficulty, a Force User whose raw power would in fact be comparable to Malgus himself, yet perhaps not as refined and honed. So while Malgus's ability in alter is certainly incredible, Traya remains superior in this category. Yet it is a minor edge.

 

Given that Traya surpasses Malgus in all three categories, I'd give the overall edge to her. However that doesn't make Traya considerably superior, as the edges in all three categories are minor.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Well let me do a comparison of Traya and Malgus and we'll see how it goes...

 

Control

 

Traya: was exceptionally skilled in the use of Force healing which she used to bring both herself and others from the brink of death as well as kill dozens of Sith Assassins simultaneously without raising a finger. She was also skilled in Force concealment and Force cloak, able to hide herself from the Jedi even when in plain sight.

 

Malgus: was incredibly skilled at control and directing his anger, often using it to sustain colossal injury and continue fighting. His Force-powered rage often made him unstoppable. Malgus was also able to conceal his presence. He was also highly skilled in the use of tutanimis.

 

I'd give the edge to Traya in this category, while Malgus has been appraised by the likes of Darth Sidious for his incredible control over his anger. Traya has performed healing on an unprecedented scale and then some. That said the gap is by no means large, and is in fact incredibly.

 

Sense

 

Traya: had a profound ability in shatterpoint which allowed her to perceived 'fractures' in objects, people and the Force itself. She was also incredibly skilled in predicting the future, able to see events that would occur 4,000 years later. Traya was also a skilled telepath, able to communicate with others across vast distances as well as probe the minds of the unwilling. She also forwent her natural sight in favour of sight through the Force.

 

Malgus: had incredibly strong senses, making his able to see through the Force concealment of Jedi.

 

Obviously Traya has shown a lot more in his category and on a much higher level, giving her the edge. However Malgus' senses are by no means lacking, and it is highly impressive that he could see straight through the Force concealment of another Force user.

 

Alter

 

Traya: her most accomplished ability was Force drain, a highly potent technique that could siphon the Force energy of others - Traya used this against the three remaining Jedi Council members to obliterate them entirely, despite them being prepared for an attack. Traya was also proficient in the basic aspects of the Force, especially Force choke which she used to tear through the Force barriers of Darth Sion without a fight.

 

Malgus: is most accomplished in this arena, he has shown exceptional proficiency with Force lightning - able to kill Jedi on the spot, as well as choke them out instantly. His Force screams were strong enough to shatter rock and most impressively experienced Oneness with the dark side of the Force.

 

Malgus' raw power is self evident, while Traya's is more esoteric. Ultimately however I would give the edge to Malgus as ability in alter is nothing short of incredible. And he has shown himself capable of much that Traya is capable of i.e. one-shotting Jedi. Remembering that against Force drain there is 'no defense'.

 

This is quite difficult to call, but ultimately I would give it to Malgus. Yes Traya surpasses him in both Control and Sense but the gap is minor, especially in Control in which they are incredibly close. And ultimately Alter, as a display of raw power, takes precedence. And it is in this category that Malgus really shines.

 

I would certainly however nominate Traya for #9.

 

I think I ultimately agree with all of this assessment, with the exception of the control aspect. Here I am not really sure who would be more powerful since, as we have stated, healing is more of an innate talent what we should really be measuring here is their abilities to fight and use their powers after sustaining heavy damage and still dealing with that pain..... and when I look at it like that...... its hard to call lol. I might actually still give it to traya as many of Malgus's ability to keep on trucking could largly be attributed to his cybernetic enhancements while traya proved to be powerful even while missing a hand, and having to deal with the constant pain. The over all is also difficult to call the only thing I am unsure about is Force drain, if it were truly undefendable why didn't she use it on Meetra. Did it have something to do with the wound? For some reason I doubt this, because wasn't the council about to do something similar. All in all I am not sure that the Force drain isn't indicative of at least being more powerful then your opponent. That being said I think I may agree with the overall though.

[Beniboybling]

I think I ultimately agree with all of this assessment, with the exception of the control aspect. Here I am not really sure who would be more powerful since, as we have stated, healing is more of an innate talent what we should really be measuring here is their abilities to fight and use their powers after sustaining heavy damage and still dealing with that pain..... and when I look at it like that...... its hard to call lol. I might actually still give it to traya as many of Malgus's ability to keep on trucking could largly be attributed to his cybernetic enhancements while traya proved to be powerful even while missing a hand, and having to deal with the constant pain. The over all is also difficult to call the only thing I am unsure about is Force drain, if it were truly undefendable why didn't she use it on Meetra. Did it have something to do with the wound? For some reason I doubt this, because wasn't the council about to do something similar. All in all I am not sure that the Force drain isn't indicative of at least being more powerful then your opponent. That being said I think I may agree with the overall though.

Meetra is immune to Force drain being a wound in the Force - effectively there is nothing their to drain. This is why Nihilus collapses and is weakened when he attempts to drain her.

 

And yes, healing is something of an innate talent. But that only solidifies Malgus' position. And I can assure you is resilience as nothing to do with cybernetic enhancements, before being pulverized under rubble he had no such enhancements. Yet he survived and went on too kill two Jedi straight after, despite one collapsing a building on him.

 

No, its explicitly stated that his endurance is attributed primarily to his dark side power. Specifically his ability to control and hone that power. Also missing a hand isn't on quite the same level of injury I feel. Many others have suffered similar injuries with no hindrance to their abilities. And it was implied she was succumbing to that pain.

[tunewalker]

Meetra is immune to Force drain being a wound in the Force - effectively there is nothing their to drain. This is why Nihilus collapses and is weakened when he attempts to drain her.

 

And yes, healing is something of an innate talent. But that only solidifies Malgus' position. And I can assure you is resilience as nothing to do with cybernetic enhancements, before being pulverized under rubble he had no such enhancements. Yet he survived and went on too kill two Jedi straight after, despite one collapsing a building on him.

 

No, its explicitly stated that his endurance is attributed primarily to his dark side power. Specifically his ability to control and hone that power. Also missing a hand isn't on quite the same level of injury I feel. Many others have suffered similar injuries with no hindrance to their abilities. And it was implied she was succumbing to that pain.

 

Ok so that would mostly solidify Malgus as actually being slightly better with Control as he was had a much better usage of Force Valor, which is easily the control ability that requires the most amount of energy argueably on par with most alter abilities. As such I do feel that solidifies him for 8.

 

Still unsure about Force Drain being an instant win against all Jedi though seems a bit off.

[Beniboybling]

Still unsure about Force Drain being an instant win against all Jedi though seems a bit off.

Well this is not exactly the case, I theorise that while Force drain cannot be defended against, it can be endured i.e. simply my being more powerful than your opponent, making them incapable of draining the full scope of your Force energy. Still, this doesn't diminish Traya in anyway. Simply being more powerful likely isn't enough, you have to have the aptitude and the ability to wield such a power to a high enough level. But then we have to ask ourselves how relevant that is to the list.