4v4 warzones are coming!

[otherworlder]

As others have said... this is lackluster if it's meant to appeal to pvpers in general (who are fairly split on whether we even wanted arenas in this game). Arenas were a much-regretted disaster in WoW in terms of class balance, and given some of the glaring discrepancies in this game in that respect (why bring a merc over a sniper, for example) and BW's track record for balancing / bugs / exploit issues, this is likely to be a massive train wreck.

 

Imagine stealth teams, sniper teams, healer teams with a tank... it will be about the gimmick of the month, not a fun test of small scale player skill. Blizzard touted their arenas with that same tagline, but everyone here knows what it turned into: a compfest. You knew right out of the gate if you were going to lose in 9/10 matches based on what comp you were fighting. This will be just like that, arguably worse given the state of tank/healer synergy in TOR right now and some glaring class balance issues (for example snipers being hands down the best ranged dps in all situations with the best survivability and defenses also).

 

For people who were hoping for some fresh 8v8 maps, world pvp incentive, etc, this is a huge let down. I'm all for trying something new, but would it have killed them to add pvp content for everyone in their "pvp update?"

[UncelSam]

Seems BW id going right in the opposite direction of whats good pvp...

 

Players want bigger, more open pvp arenas, not smaller!!

[ObiJuanShenobi]

"This isn’t an exhaustive list, and we are also working on several longer term initiatives. As we get closer we’ll have a lot more juicy details on these and on what’s above. Keep your eyes peeled to the forums and SWTOR.com for more information!"

 

Apparently no one saw this part of the dev's post.

 

But leave it to the typical few who always QQ about things like this before they even know the details.

[Darkshadz]

"This isn’t an exhaustive list, and we are also working on several longer term initiatives. As we get closer we’ll have a lot more juicy details on these and on what’s above. Keep your eyes peeled to the forums and SWTOR.com for more information!"

 

Apparently no one saw this part of the dev's post.

 

But leave it to the typical few who always QQ about things like this before they even know the details.

 

They also didn't read this

 

Hey guys,

 

I am getting that some of you are frustrated that there are also Operations coming in 2.4 as a PvP player. This is in no way taking away from the content you are getting. It just means that on top of being an update with PvP content, it also has PvE content in it as well. It is just a bigger update for everyone!

 

To specifically address some of the concerns I am seeing in the thread. First, the 4v4 Warzone Arenas are not scaled down versions of the current 8v8 maps. They are a brand new Warzone type (deathmatch) on their own brand new maps! Note: Plural! You will see more than one map at launch.

 

As some have said, this is not the only thing coming in 2.4. We have stated before in this thread the purpose of this is to give you an overview, it does not have every detail. Some of your other concerns...such as queuing for Ranked, will be addressed along with 2.4. We are still working on details and 2.4 is still a ways off. We will continue to release information as we lock things in.

 

I want to add on a personal note that one of the things I have enjoyed most over the past month or two at work is our twice a week Warzone Arena playtests. I am someone who primarily PvPs when I play SWTOR and they are so, so much fun. I cannot wait for you guys to get your hands on them!

 

-eric

 

Reading is too hard yo

[Smuglebunny]

Ok, this is my last sub, and this one was only cuz my girlfriend wanted to finish her merc and mara.

 

I have no intrest in more REPEATABLE( ie. crap) content.

 

New PVP Gear? I have 14 toons, don't even have a piece of partisan yet. 2.0 just came out imo. I have a job.

 

You really don't know what to do BW, do you? Which is weird cuz you keep getting told. Bye.\

 

PS. MAKEB SUCKS if you have to do it 7 times for each faction. AND ITS THE SAME!

 

I was sticking around cuz its star wars but WOW you sure can make someone feel like they MUST flee from your game.

 

My sub is up in less than 2 months will never see any of that, and will be well into the NEXT thing.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Smuglebunny

[ObiJuanShenobi]

As others have said... this is lackluster if it's meant to appeal to pvpers in general (who are fairly split on whether we even wanted arenas in this game). Arenas were a much-regretted disaster in WoW in terms of class balance, and given some of the glaring discrepancies in this game in that respect (why bring a merc over a sniper, for example) and BW's track record for balancing / bugs / exploit issues, this is likely to be a massive train wreck.

 

Imagine stealth teams, sniper teams, healer teams with a tank... it will be about the gimmick of the month, not a fun test of small scale player skill. Blizzard touted their arenas with that same tagline, but everyone here knows what it turned into: a compfest. You knew right out of the gate if you were going to lose in 9/10 matches based on what comp you were fighting. This will be just like that, arguably worse given the state of tank/healer synergy in TOR right now and some glaring class balance issues (for example snipers being hands down the best ranged dps in all situations with the best survivability and defenses also).

 

For people who were hoping for some fresh 8v8 maps, world pvp incentive, etc, this is a huge let down. I'm all for trying something new, but would it have killed them to add pvp content for everyone in their "pvp update?"

 

I dont have the link but I'm pretty sure i saw a post where BW says that arenas will be que'd with roles selected (heal, tank, dps, dps). Maybe this means they will have a restriction in game in which, for example, you can't que as DPS if you are a healer. Honestly, I would be shocked if they were smart enough to have restrictions without a loop that can be expoited, but It's a pleasant thought. If there was a way to force us to strictly have a healer, tank, and 2 dps'...i'd be more excited about Arena.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Ok, this is my last sub, and this one was only cuz my girlfriend wanted to finish her merc and mara.

 

I have no intrest in more REPEATABLE( ie. crap) content.

 

New PVP Gear? I have 14 toons, don't even have a piece of partisan yet. 2.0 just came out imo. I have a job.

 

PS. MAKEB SUCKS if you have to do it 7 times for each faction. AND ITS THE SAME!

 

You've never played an MMO before SWTOR, have you? That's so cute.

[Smuglebunny]

As others have said... this is lackluster if it's meant to appeal to pvpers in general (who are fairly split on whether we even wanted arenas in this game). Arenas were a much-regretted disaster in WoW in terms of class balance, and given some of the glaring discrepancies in this game in that respect (why bring a merc over a sniper, for example) and BW's track record for balancing / bugs / exploit issues, this is likely to be a massive train wreck.

 

Imagine stealth teams, sniper teams, healer teams with a tank... it will be about the gimmick of the month, not a fun test of small scale player skill. Blizzard touted their arenas with that same tagline, but everyone here knows what it turned into: a compfest. You knew right out of the gate if you were going to lose in 9/10 matches based on what comp you were fighting. This will be just like that, arguably worse given the state of tank/healer synergy in TOR right now and some glaring class balance issues (for example snipers being hands down the best ranged dps in all situations with the best survivability and defenses also).

 

For people who were hoping for some fresh 8v8 maps, world pvp incentive, etc, this is a huge let down. I'm all for trying something new, but would it have killed them to add pvp content for everyone in their "pvp update?"

 

Oh look this guy is saying what we are all thinking. BIO WARE

[Smuglebunny]

You've never played an MMO before SWTOR, have you? That's so cute.

 

Yeah I have 14 toons but im not really into mmos you got me.

[cycao]

They also didn't read this

 

Reading is too hard yo

 

Well didn't see the dev post until this morning but there are things I (and a lot of other people) would like answers too.

 

I posted this in the general forums as well.

 

Here is what we do know. Arenas were something that since launch the community has been somewhat divided on for a few reasons. One being that (and this will be true for most games) is that class balance is an issue. Right now as with every stage of this game some classes are performing at a higher level than others. Some players have feared that with arenas classes would be balanced around them instead of 8vs8. A just cause seeing as I have already seen peoples expectations about assassins and ops being the only classes you will need (again still early but I have seen them). Gear was also an issue, 4vs4 ranked will be loads easier and will most likely cause 8 man ranked to take a hit as gearing up in end game gear will be loads easier and well, its something new.

 

Now here are some reasons why I am a bit upset and so are others that I know.

 

Season one of ranked

It has been pre season for over a year. I am not sure what they are waiting on but something mentioned of their goals for ranked would put some minds at ease especially since they made it a point to say expect big things for ranked in one of their earlier summer of swtor threads. I mentioned above that I think arenas will cause ranked warzones to lose popularity as the ranked scene on most servers at the moment appear to be as popular as ever since they released them back in June of 2012.

 

Matchmaking

Probably the most brought up topics in the PvP forum is 'premades vs solo' players and 'pug stomping'. There is a rift where some people think the queues should just be split where its only a true solo queue and a group only queue. The other side wants a matchmaking system. Something that actually takes into account wins/losses, maybe gear, possibly valor (nothing to do with skill but with time played), just something to make regular warzones more enjoyable overall for everyone.

 

Bolster

Bolster has been the biggest complaint that came from 2.0. For those that do not know bolster was put in place for two reasons. One being that players leveling in the new lowbie brackets so that a level 30 has a chance against a level 54. The other being that with the removal of recruit gear (mainly due to the fact that not a lot of players put it on) fresh 55's would have a chance. Well bolster has been a broken feature ever since it hit the PTS for patch 2.0 and it is still not 100% effective.

 

New warzones

This is a no brainer it will have been almost a year since we got AHG so it would be nice to have heard something about that.

 

Also there are a number of annoying bugs out there as well as class balance and other things but those are the things I was looking forward to hearing about being addressed with this patch which will feature 'big' PvP changes.

 

Happy we are finally getting something but some of the major topics/issues have not been brought up in a while and part of the gripe a lot of PvPers have with the state of our part of the game is communication or lack there of.

[otherworlder]

"This isn’t an exhaustive list, and we are also working on several longer term initiatives. As we get closer we’ll have a lot more juicy details on these and on what’s above. Keep your eyes peeled to the forums and SWTOR.com for more information!"

 

Apparently no one saw this part of the dev's post.

 

But leave it to the typical few who always QQ about things like this before they even know the details.

 

Call me a pessimist, but given BW's spotty-at-best track record for over promising and under delivering, I'll be astonished if they add much more than they've touted. With them, they generally deliver LESS than they've touted (often pulling features at the last minute, or forcing them live with countless bugs and exploits).

 

I admire your optimism, but I have to look at their history. If that patch was coming out with new larger-scale pvp options, they'd have said something or the data miners would have seen it by now. Note that I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on this point, but BW has stung us too many times for me to get my hopes up.

[otherworlder]

I dont have the link but I'm pretty sure i saw a post where BW says that arenas will be que'd with roles selected (heal, tank, dps, dps). Maybe this means they will have a restriction in game in which, for example, you can't que as DPS if you are a healer. Honestly, I would be shocked if they were smart enough to have restrictions without a loop that can be expoited, but It's a pleasant thought. If there was a way to force us to strictly have a healer, tank, and 2 dps'...i'd be more excited about Arena.

 

Agreed. I would happily try it myself if they limited roles in this way, though the system would still be open to loopholes / gimmick comps.

 

You cannot have a small scale arena system in MMO pvp that's truly balanced unless all ACs perform their roles equally well----and I think we can all agree that's never going to happen in TOR.

 

When I originally heard "arena wzs in 2.4" I had my fingers crossed for some no-frills 8v8 (or bigger!) deathmatch style warzones or Huttball type shenanigans (still the only WZ that doesn't force the usual boredom of node defense on the better players for most of a match). To discover that instead I'll be getting nothing of interest is a serious letdown.

[KhalDrogoe]

4v4 arena's will be boring. 2 tanks + 2 op healers = Snooze fest. Unless they nerf tanking, 4v4 is going to be real slow pace.

 

4 Hybrid operatives will probably be a good team too.

 

DPS Mercs will be put on the shelf, yet AGAIN. And we were just starting to get picked up in rateds.

 

TBH I'd rather them just create 2 new huttball maps, and create a huttball only queue for both rateds and non-rateds. Would be a much better investment of time.

[AlrikFassbauer]

4v4 arena's will be boring. 2 tanks + 2 op healers = Snooze fest.

 

No-one is saying that the Arenas will only throw in 2 tanks + 2 healers.

 

What, if it is radom ?

[cycao]

4v4 arena's will be boring. 2 tanks + 2 op healers = Snooze fest. Unless they nerf tanking, 4v4 is going to be real slow pace.

 

4 Hybrid operatives will probably be a good team too.

 

DPS Mercs will be put on the shelf, yet AGAIN. And we were just starting to get picked up in rateds.

 

TBH I'd rather them just create 2 new huttball maps, and create a huttball only queue for both rateds and non-rateds. Would be a much better investment of time.

 

I guess we will all need to wait until they put it up on the PTS.

[Trevormortis]

Personally, I think this is a step in the right direction. Arena was the only thing that was good about WoW imho (especially WotLK and beyond), even with some class imbalances. Adding it in this game will hopefully bring more serious mmo pvper's back, and that can only be good for our community.

 

Plus, if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. There will still be reg and ranked WZ's as well.

 

I say we wait to see how they plan on impleminting it before we as a community goes all crazy like.

[Morde_]

4v4 arena's will be boring. 2 tanks + 2 op healers = Snooze fest. Unless they nerf tanking, 4v4 is going to be real slow pace.

 

4 Hybrid operatives will probably be a good team too.

 

DPS Mercs will be put on the shelf, yet AGAIN. And we were just starting to get picked up in rateds.

 

TBH I'd rather them just create 2 new huttball maps, and create a huttball only queue for both rateds and non-rateds. Would be a much better investment of time.

 

They've stated that they're going to implement mechanisms to discourage turtle comps.

 

For example I think someone mentioned at a meet and greet that there will be a point where healing is debuffed significantly or disabled after a certain time has elapsed.

 

Don't quote me on that, but it's something along those lines.

[otherworlder]

Personally, I think this is a step in the right direction. Arena was the only thing that was good about WoW imho (especially WotLK and beyond), even with some class imbalances. Adding it in this game will hopefully bring more serious mmo pvper's back, and that can only be good for our community.

 

Plus, if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. There will still be reg and ranked WZ's as well.

 

I say we wait to see how they plan on impleminting it before we as a community goes all crazy like.

 

I think you're missing the point a bit here.

 

Pvpers who are against arenas or have no interest in them have been doing the same WZs for a very, very long time. It gets old and repetitive if it's not kept fresh. BW finally promises a content update for those players, but it actually turns out to be aimed at a smaller subset of those players. That's really where the protest is coming from.

 

All pvpers do WZs in this game. Not all will do arenas. Keeping one up to date and exciting will make everyone happy. Adding the other will not.

Edited July 17, 2013 by otherworlder

[Trevormortis]

All pvpers do WZs in this game. Not all will do arenas. Keeping one up to date and exciting will make everyone happy. Adding the other will not.

 

Not quite true. All pvper's do Wz's in this game because there is nothing else pvp to do. I would argue that if people had more options with pvp content, your statement wouldn't be true.

 

When Arena was introduced in WoW, myself and many others I played with stopped doing battlegrounds (WZ's in this game) all together (except the occasional daily). We were tired of BG's and even when new ones were added they got old very quick.

 

They also had instanced pvp zones (wintergrasp was one i believe...its been too long to remeber all that ****) where there were objectives and 40+ man pvp groups killing each other. There was ALOT more to do pvp wise.

 

Yes, reg WZ's are getting stale, I agree. But adding a new WZ will get stale too if there is nothing to do ouside of that. How long did it take Hypergate to get boring. It's not like you can Q up to a certain map, its random, so 80% of the time your still getting those old maps.

 

This is ALL NEW CONTENT. It won't get stale for a while longer. Yes not everyone will do it, but thats ok (I don't complain when there is something new for pve, and I don't do that at all).

 

I'm also not saying they shouldn't be adding more WZ's too (because they should) but you are saying they should just keep adding more of the same and that will de-stale things. I disagree with that premise.

 

TL;DR We need pvp versatility. This will help that. Yes, it's not for everyone, but by getting this done, it will create a feeling that this game cares about the multiple facets of pvp (which there are, even if you don't like that). Once this is done, then they can start working on new maps for reg WZ's, etc., but this is a part of pvp, and it needs to be implimented to hold and gain serious pvp subscribers.

[otherworlder]

Not quite true. All pvper's do Wz's in this game because there is nothing else pvp to do. I would argue that if people had more options with pvp content, your statement wouldn't be true.

 

When Arena was introduced in WoW, myself and many others I played with stopped doing battlegrounds (WZ's in this game) all together (except the occasional daily). We were tired of BG's and even when new ones were added they got old very quick.

 

They also had instanced pvp zones (wintergrasp was one i believe...its been too long to remeber all that ****) where there were objectives and 40+ man pvp groups killing each other. There was ALOT more to do pvp wise.

 

Yes, reg WZ's are getting stale, I agree. But adding a new WZ will get stale too if there is nothing to do ouside of that. How long did it take Hypergate to get boring. It's not like you can Q up to a certain map, its random, so 80% of the time your still getting those old maps.

 

This is ALL NEW CONTENT. It won't get stale for a while longer. Yes not everyone will do it, but thats ok (I don't complain when there is something new for pve, and I don't do that at all).

 

I'm also not saying they shouldn't be adding more WZ's too (because they should) but you are saying they should just keep adding more of the same and that will de-stale things. I disagree with that premise.

 

TL;DR We need pvp versatility. This will help that. Yes, it's not for everyone, but by getting this done, it will create a feeling that this game cares about the multiple facets of pvp (which there are, even if you don't like that). Once this is done, then they can start working on new maps for reg WZ's, etc., but this is a part of pvp, and it needs to be implimented to hold and gain serious pvp subscribers.

 

You got the impression that I'm on the opposite side; I agree with you almost entirely. Perhaps put more succinctly what I should have said is this: "We were hoping for PvP content that would be for everyone."

 

I agree that WZs get very, very stale and that TOR desperately needs to add in something new (actual quest zone interaction that fosters level-appropriate pvp, world pvp zones with incentives, player bounties, whatever), but small scale arenas are not really it. Sure, most will TRY it, but unless implemented flawlessly (and remember, if Blizzard couldn't get this right, do you think BW will?) it will end up being another experiment like RWZs that only a small minority participate in.

 

New large-scale WZs would have appealed to a broader base for certain, as long as it's not more phoned-in bland map/objective design like NC and AHG were. They need more maps that are truly innovative, like Huttball, and that don't demand the better players sit twiddling thumbs at a node most of a match.

 

I agree that WZs are not the answer to better TOR pvp, but given the limitations of the engine it's the "biggest scale" we're likely to get. They just need a LOT more of them, and a lot more variety in the objectives.

Edited July 17, 2013 by otherworlder

[otherworlder]

One thing we definitely don't agree on is the premise that arena draws more "serious" pvpers. Anyone who understood the arena metagame in WoW knew it was all about class comp, with skill being a distant second. I want competition and player ability to decide who wins a match, not the classes on my team before I even load into the map.

[Trevormortis]

One thing we definitely don't agree on is the premise that arena draws more "serious" pvpers. Anyone who understood the arena metagame in WoW knew it was all about class comp, with skill being a distant second. I want competition and player ability to decide who wins a match, not the classes on my team before I even load into the map.

 

That definately happens in the lower brackets. But in WoW's upper brackets (2600+) it had little to do with class comp and everything to do with skill (I'm talking about 3v3 and 5v5. Not talking about 2v2, as that was a mess and wasnt even considered serious by the players and developers alike).

 

If you think arena in WoW was all about comp i question how much arena you actually did in that game. If that was true, then the top players wouldnt have so many alts also in the 2600+ brackets(which almost all of them did) Class comp ONLY mattered in WoWs lowest brackets. In the upper brackets it only mattered when the team was 100% even skilled, which wasn't often. The better team almost always won.

 

Of course some specs were not playable in arena (nature of the beast). I'm not refering to that and I don't think you are either.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Trevormortis

[Trevormortis]

And as a side note, I would have been fine with an instanced world pvp zone instead of arena, but I fear we will never get that due to the crappy way this game was set up. So really arena is the only way to "expand" the pvp universe. Adding more WZ''s wouldnt really do that (though it would make things better for another month or two (maybe).

[Lightsabermaker]

Hmm... There will be multiple warzones. Another word with the same stem is multiply. The sign for multiply is X. 4x4 is another way of saying arena. 4x4=16.... THERE WILL BE 16 NEW MAPS

[Ottoattack]

The current balance system for classes does not support arenas. I do not enjoy playing sins & ops vs sin & ops. Unless there is a complete revamp of all classes, which is not going to happen, arenas will never be balanced.

 

The only interesting part in the update is PvE part and am a PvPer...

 

What are BW plans regarding bolster? What is the plan regarding class balance updates, considering we have many classes with broken or semi broken trees? What is the plan regarding implementation of season one? Are we ever going to have a match making system?

 

These are way more important questions than implementing arenas that game current balance system can't handle. If PvP does not have a balanced system, adding 1 or 2 more maps or modes does not amount to much if the PvP system is not fixed.

 

BW told us about the least important side of the update in terms of PvP. And that might be the entire update PvP wise, which will be epic fail.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ottoattack