"Traditional" MMO is dead

[Callaron]

I think it is now safe to say this.

WoW has just confirmed that they will be adding an in-game market

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377319765?page=88#1745

Little is known. But I feel this is relevant to SWTOR. Right now every MMO I can think of either has an in-game market, has confirmed plans to implement one, or is shutting down. With the exception of FFXIV however that has not re-launched yet so it remains to be seen.

As of right now, I just find it interesting that WoW is doing this while keeping their Sub.

 

Well, a lot of people say that WoW cheats with their subscribers number - with Asian accounts being counted despite not using the same payment model.

WoW's subscribers number has also been on the decline from a while if the numbers I saw last time are to be believed - I'm guessing that they are looking to make up for those losses with the store.

Free to Play may still happen at some point.

[ImpactHound]

Half-Life was pretty much a game changer for the shooter genre. Due to the popularity of Counter-Strike HL sold exceptionally well. Before HL was released shooters were pretty much enthusiast games.

 

Apart from that, I do not believe the subscription model is dead. What I do believe is that WoW has - directly or indirectly - led to a sort of hiatus.

Due to the huge success of WoW, MMO devs can't just go and make a game people might enjoy, it has to be like WoW. And because no MMO dev has managed to actually make a game that is as good as WoW, all MMOs since WoW have pretty much bombed.

 

What gets me most is that a lot of devs don't properly invest in their combat systems. It's mind boggling. This is one of the keys to WoW's success, a fluid and responsive combat system. When I look at the games that I had some interest in in the past years, they were all flawed by an abysmal combat system. Warhammer Online? Awful and laggy combat experience. The Secret World? Awesome atmosphere and story, but painfully detached and overall boring combat. SW:ToR? Basically WAR in space. The reason I'm still subbed is because playing a mediocre game with friends beats playing a good game without friends.

 

It isn't the subscription model that is broken, it's the stale MMO market that either didn't come up with something good enough to earn their subscription fees. But people have become jaded by the umpteenth WoW clone, and by all the other disappointing attempts to cash in on the MMO craze. This is why no one wants to pay for a game that's just something while waiting for the "next big thing" to arrive. And this is why F2P/freemium is the only successful model right now. I guarantee you that people will be willing to pay a sub if you're delivering a quality product. It's just that no dev has bothered to do so since WoW

 

It happened to RTS for awhile, after Warcraft 3 a lot of other RTS games added "hero units," but it's always been a smaller genre so it wasn't dominated in the same way.

[ImpactHound]

Well, a lot of people say that WoW cheats with their subscribers number - with Asian accounts being counted despite not using the same payment model.

WoW's subscribers number has also been on the decline from a while if the numbers I saw last time are to be believed - I'm guessing that they are looking to make up for those losses with the store.

Free to Play may still happen at some point.

 

Every company does. BioWare is vague on the seperation between paying subscriptions, active premium/free accounts, and accounts that are given up but still technically playable because of the F2P model(people who quit in early 2012 for example). Runescape boasts giant numbers, but has a ton of inactive accounts close to a decade old and alts/rerolls require creating a new account. At least when everyone does it, it normalizes the numbers every company is putting out and they're still correctly to scale with one another.

[Foofie]

"Traditional" MMOs died when WoW was released Now all they are are gear grinds.

 

Gear grinds..... A lot of them are, now.

[Amera]

One of the other issues with cash shops (even in sub games) is that games in 1998 charge $15 a month, and now games in 2013 still charge $15/month and yet cost dramatically more to make in most cases. Even Rift, which was a first attempt from an unknown company, had something like a $50 million budget.

 

Like it or hate it, there's the growing acknowledgement among execs that one of the biggest problems with the sub model is that you "cap" the amount of $ your hardcore fans can spend on the game. F2P games have demonstrated that "harpooning whales" is a massive moneymaker, and as long as your customers let you get away with it, there's no incentive for games not to exploit this. Plenty of people will be willing to pay Blizzard more than $15, so why not let them? Blizzard won't need to lock additional features away from the people who "just" sub (because they still have a healthy base), but I'm really surprised it has taken them this long to expand their shop. People already pay exorbitant prices to server transfer ($25??!) so why not give them other avenues to throw away their cash?

[Alavastre]

It's silly for an MMO to limit the amount of money they could take in by the subscription model. All MMO's should and in the future will have some sort of in game microtransaction market.

 

I love most markets, if they are fun and useful.

 

The problem lies in not having an in game market, but if the said developer puts their effort into the market or the game. If the market is updated here and there, with some cool stuff, more power to them. If it's the focus, then they will get money, but their subs will start to get angry.

 

In WoW's case, I don't think you have to worry about them just focusing on the market. And to be honest, they've already had some microtransaction stuff, just not in game.

[ImpactHound]

It's silly for an MMO to limit the amount of money they could take in by the subscription model. All MMO's should and in the future will have some sort of in game microtransaction market.

 

That's the thinking behind redesigning transactions on PS4, Sony's opened up a lot of backdoors on the developer end to encourage MMOs or games with microtransactions to flourish on the platform when it comes out for both large and indie developers.

 

Microtransactions are still a grey area and usually a dirty word to most customers. I think people hold Blizzard up to a higher standard than other companies(and they do it to themselves too) so they're not going to rush into anything that offends their market. They're still trying every day to distance themselves from Bobby Kotick's ominious money-grubbing Skylanders shadow.

[Andryah]

Well, a lot of people say that WoW cheats with their subscribers number - with Asian accounts being counted despite not using the same payment model.

WoW's subscribers number has also been on the decline from a while if the numbers I saw last time are to be believed - I'm guessing that they are looking to make up for those losses with the store.

Free to Play may still happen at some point.

 

It's not so much that they cheat on their numbers, it's that they have two entirely different access models for East and West and most players do not understand this. And of course Blizzard does not help them understand, because it is not to their advantage. East has always been the higher player base.

 

In the EAST (ie: the China Server Farm) it's tokenized pay-2-access. It's really not a subscription as the players here know it. The problem with this model when trying to use it's numbers as part of "subscriptions" is that they really have no stable revenue from these accounts. There are millions of them, and they operate more like F2P accounts in that they can be open accounts, yet not be played. When they are played, on average they earn $1-$2 per month on pay to play fees. And there are time-caps on the accounts.. where they are not allowed to play more then I think it is 4 hours a day (from what friends in China have told me). The reason it operates this way is because flat fee subscriptions for games are illegal in China.

 

In the West it's a subscription model, with fixed fee for service. And really, when talking about WoW subscriptions in the context of MMOs played in EU and NA.. this is the only number that really counts. They appear to be right around 2M now that the Panda fever has worn off. They do an expac every two to three years.. and the players consume it and get bored in about 6 months these days and unsub until the next one. So yeah, they need alternate revenue streams in the game as they cannot count on their player base being constantly subbed. A lot of the membership is seasonal now.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Andryah

[Alavastre]

That's the thinking behind redesigning transactions on PS4, Sony's opened up a lot of backdoors on the developer end to encourage MMOs or games with microtransactions to flourish on the platform when it comes out for both large and indie developers.

 

Microtransactions are still a grey area and usually a dirty word to most customers. I think people hold Blizzard up to a higher standard than other companies(and they do it to themselves too) so they're not going to rush into anything that offends their market. They're still trying every day to distance themselves from Bobby Kotick's ominious money-grubbing Skylanders shadow.

 

If you have the money to spend, it's not so bad. Which I do, so I don't worry about microtransactions. Also, I agree, Blizzard will tread carefully as they are a sub game, at least in the West. They will sell things that add to the game, and will try to make their subs feel like it's extra while still giving them value for subscriptions.

 

Something SWTOR has been struggling with as of late.

[Callaron]

It's not so much that they cheat on their numbers, it's that they have two entirely different access models for East and West and most players do not understand this. And of course Blizzard does not help them understand, because it is not to their advantage. East has always been the higher player base.

 

In the EAST (ie: the China Server Farm) it's tokenized pay-2-access. It's really not a subscription as the players here know it. The problem with this model when trying to use it's numbers as part of "subscriptions" is that they really have no stable revenue from these accounts. There are millions of them, and they operate more like F2P accounts in that they can be open accounts, yet not be played. When they are played, on average they earn $1-$2 per month on pay to play fees. And there are time-caps on the accounts.. where they are not allowed to play more then I think it is 4 hours a day (from what friends in China have told me). The reason it operates this way is because flat fee subscriptions for games are illegal in China.

 

In the West it's a subscription model, with fixed fee for service. And really, when talking about WoW subscriptions in the context of MMOs played in EU and NA.. this is the only number that really counts. They appear to be right around 2M now that the Panda fever has worn off. They do an expac every two to three years.. and the players consume it and get bored in about 6 months these days and unsub until the next one. So yeah, they need alternate revenue streams in the game as they cannot count on their player base being constantly subbed. A lot of the membership is seasonal now.

 

Thanks, that's the thing that I meant - not exactly cheating but... maybe more "obfuscating" numbers?

I'm pretty sure I got it from one of your posts in the first place.

[VahlkThasan]

I think the problem with the Sub model isn't that it isn't profitable or that people prefer something else. I think it has to do with the intrinsically finite nature of Themepark design.

 

Themeparks end. There is no real game loop or end game. What there is of an end game is nothing more than gear building. This game is much more intensive than WoW, though, because you aren't just gear building for your character, but also gear building for all of your companions. Unfortunately, gear-building for your character is boring enough.

 

The fact that we can put mods in a thousand different selections only makes it worse. Now, we aren't just trying to get that helmet... we're trying to get one piece of that helmet. And not just for ourselves, but for our companions. To get these pieces, we have a couple of options. We can either grind out the dailies to build up the Comms (which will take forever) or we can grind out the dailies to build up the credits (which will take forever) to buy similar grade mods from crafters.

 

This is the loop, and frankly... it's boring as hell. Not because the combat isn't fun or the game isn't slick... but because you're doing the exact same dailies every day, the exact same thing over and over and over and over again.

 

SWTOR isn't the first game to do this. This is how ALL Themeparks are built. They do this so you have something to do until they can release the next big expansion, with content we will eat up in a week. But more importantly, there will be new pieces of gear we have to build up all over again.

 

Subscriptions don't work in this sort of environment. They worked a lot better when games were more of a Sandbox operation. Not that they were completely Sandbox titles - but they were more so than anything we have today.

[xorcist]

I think it is now safe to say this.

WoW has just confirmed that they will be adding an in-game market

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377319765?page=88#1745

Little is known. But I feel this is relevant to SWTOR. Right now every MMO I can think of either has an in-game market, has confirmed plans to implement one, or is shutting down. With the exception of FFXIV however that has not re-launched yet so it remains to be seen.

As of right now, I just find it interesting that WoW is doing this while keeping their Sub.

 

It's because Blizzard saw how much EA is able to rip off the player base and decided that because people are dumb, this will work for them as well. Need all around. Except us. We greed when we should pass. A Realm Reborn Beta plays very nice. I like it. Pass to there for the win

Edited July 10, 2013 by xorcist

[Ishigum]

Hopefully WoW goes FTP soon. I would love to see what I've been missing but it's just not worth the price of a sub to me anymore. FTP allows you to try before you buy which is really cool. Been playing Rift and DCUO and even though I'm subbed here I'm not married to this game so when content goes stale I'll hope over to one of the others and so on so forth.

[Blackavaar]

lol ... lolllo oo loollll LOLL L OLL

 

Translation: Laugh out loud ... Laugh out loud laugh laugh out out out loud out out loud laugh laugh laugh?

 

Dude, if you want to type an exaggerated laugh just use the old - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

At least that makes sense.

 

[thehighestbeing]

I think the problem with the Sub model isn't that it isn't profitable or that people prefer something else. I think it has to do with the intrinsically finite nature of Themepark design.

 

Themeparks end. There is no real game loop or end game. What there is of an end game is nothing more than gear building. This game is much more intensive than WoW, though, because you aren't just gear building for your character, but also gear building for all of your companions. Unfortunately, gear-building for your character is boring enough.

 

The fact that we can put mods in a thousand different selections only makes it worse. Now, we aren't just trying to get that helmet... we're trying to get one piece of that helmet. And not just for ourselves, but for our companions. To get these pieces, we have a couple of options. We can either grind out the dailies to build up the Comms (which will take forever) or we can grind out the dailies to build up the credits (which will take forever) to buy similar grade mods from crafters.

 

This is the loop, and frankly... it's boring as hell. Not because the combat isn't fun or the game isn't slick... but because you're doing the exact same dailies every day, the exact same thing over and over and over and over again.

 

SWTOR isn't the first game to do this. This is how ALL Themeparks are built. They do this so you have something to do until they can release the next big expansion, with content we will eat up in a week. But more importantly, there will be new pieces of gear we have to build up all over again.

 

Subscriptions don't work in this sort of environment. They worked a lot better when games were more of a Sandbox operation. Not that they were completely Sandbox titles - but they were more so than anything we have today.

 

It's true. Sandbox games keep players involved because it's more about building a life rather then completing quests. Maintaining a house, growing plants, crafting that's useful and profitable. Also having things to make that money for like epic gear and fun things. On the other end, hunting/instances that build gear. Some games have tried, Lord of the rings online for example. I think it was too intense for casuals. I'm a moderate gamer and the lore in that game was overwhelming.

[Pietrastor]

As of right now, I just find it interesting that WoW is doing this while keeping their Sub.

Why? The existence of gamers who will spend hundreds of $$$ in cash shop at the top of their monthly sub if they're only given opportunity has been long confirmed, Activision/Blizzard would be stupid to pass on free money. This is basically the basis of F2P/freemium models. There may be tons of players who don't spend a single cent but they will be outbalanced and then some more by the 'whales' who can't control how much hats, map packs or whatever they buy. Edited July 11, 2013 by Pietrastor