Rage VS Vengeance for PvE

[Scooch]

Here is my parse from our kill of With. Horror on NiM TFB last night:

http://www.torparse.com/a/356135/24/0/Damage+Dealt

It is a lot better than what I would get on Vengeance. There I struggled to get over 2000, however, on some of the deaths on this fight I was able to get over 2500.

Still need some work though. My biggest issue is keeping track in my head if I've popped my 3 Shockwave stacks from Enrage or Crush plus the auto-crit from Obliterate before I hit Smash. So I am constantly looking down at my bar...

Don't know if its just going to take me some time or if anyone has any advice for that...

 

It mostly comes from repeated usage. I always tell all dps'ers trying a new build to dummy parse for at least 5mins a pop and at least 5-10 times in a row as often as possible. You build up muscle memory and you start to know what you've used when and not have to continually look at your debuffs/cds to visually verify what you used.

 

Also when in doubt it's easy to spot shockwave at a quick glance at your buffs, it's unique. As Loufu and I have said before dominate is the tough one since it has the same graphic as power buffs you gain from relics.(still hoping for a graphic change on those!!) Another thing I've caught myself doing is that some boss fights I've used FCharge to close the distance to a boss and then just from doing the rotation I'll end up using Obliterate within a few seconds so I've just doubled up on Dominate(not a bad thing mind you, but can cause some confusion sometimes)

 

So I'd say just keep practicing. I'm not sure what your ACC is at, but from that parse I see you missed 1.14% on the boss himself. Fortunately those weren't a Smash or FCrush tho. Still hurts, but not as much. You missed on Scream and V.Slash only. So if you're at 99.5%, I'd suggest swapping 1 Aug for an ACC aug. That'd put you up to 99.91% and should solve the missing issues.

 

You did great Smashing with Dominate tho. Didn't Smash once without Dominate. But you didn't have Shockwave at least once. Again just keep practicing on a Dummy. You'll get there.

 

I've been mostly Tanking and not able to dps for the last month. Guild lost a good chunk of our roster due to RL. So we're working on rebuilding and training new recruits, otherwise I'd share a current parse with you. You can always find others on Torparse tho to compare with other juggs.

[kennethdale]

Sorry to interrupt the Rage discussion but I have a few Vengeance questions:

 

1) Does hitting a Rampage Ravage early cause Ravage to be locked out from another proc until a natural CD? (I ask because it seems to be the case at least when testing on a dummy)

 

2) If the answer to the above is "no" then if the natural CD on Ravage is >9s (Particularly if it is >4 seconds) is it better to: A) Hit it immediately B) Hit it after it would have approximately naturally CD'd or C) Continue to use Shatter/Impale to time the CD on Rampage?

 

3) Since the 3 biggest DPS abilities (aside from Ravage) all build stacks of Savagery, is it worth delaying the use of Impale/Shatter/VT by ~a GCD to allow the use of a 2 stack Savagery FS?

 

Hopefully that all makes sense >< lol!

 

EDIT:

I seem to have an answer to #1. I spent about 20 minutes simply using only Sundering Assault, Assault, Impale, Shatter and Ravage. The first 10 minutes I used Ravage the moment it came off CD (naturally or due to Rampage proc) the second 10 minutes I spent using the Shatter/Impale CD timer method Ssfish told me about. I have yet to look at the parses but it seemed during the fight that there was not much difference in between how often Rampage procced when used after the internal CD (in fact, it could be just perception) but it seemed to be proccing more often while I was using Ravage completely on CD.

Edited July 30, 2013 by kennethdale

[Jurugu]

What you definitely should do is to use Ravage immediately if it comes off CD naturally, especially before any Shatter or Impale. Otherwise you might waste a Rampage proc, which is ... bad. I also tend to delay Shatter or Impale if Ravage has only one or two seconds of CD left, as it would seem an awful waste of a Rampage proc to do otherwise.

 

I am not entirely sure this is correct, though, and more experienced Vengeance Juggernauts should also comment.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jurugu

[metaIsaber]

I would say they are similar dps, however Veng does have the higher potential ST dps. It has this due to Rampage procs, if you get good RNG for it Veng can do about 100dps higher ST.

 

For example - My highest Ship dummy parse for 5 min run is 2866dps. My usual is around 2800 dps as Rage.

 

The best Veng ship dummy parses are up to about 2950dps with good RNG on Rampage procs. The average Veng parses are around 2850dps. (this is all taken from current Torparse dummy logs and just visual comparisons from the top dps'ers)

 

Now that's on a ship dummy and not actual comparisons for boss fights. Boss fights all depend on your guilds strat(there's a lot of variations in strats I've seen) and the boss mechanics themselves.

 

As Metal said, Veng is more RNG based on it's highest potential, whereas Rage is 100% controlled by you. There's no random proc in Rage. If you have low dps as Rage, it's because you made mistakes somewhere(whether it's gear, priority rotation, etc). If you have low dps as Veng you can have made similar mistakes as a Rage jugg, however you also have the procs from Rampage(or lack there of) causing some lower dps. Which you can't control Rampage short of using Shatter/Impale whenever possible when the ICD is off cd.

 

I can go into more comparisons if requested, but I think the point has gotten across.

 

ps- Sorry I don't post as often as some others. I usually do most my internet trolling through my phone. I use a key fob for my security key and I never carry it with me(don't want to lose it) so I can't reply ever unless I'm at home.

 

Yup. Definitely Veng has a higher potential and i've done it numerous times on a dummy. The problem I was faced with is that my new raid group is using 3 melee and we needed more mob dps. So I went rage. I've almost got the hang of it. On Olok clear last night I was 2nd highest dps. We would have had more issues with that fight had I stayed Veng.

Edited July 30, 2013 by metaIsaber

[mlambros]

Yup. Definitely Veng has a higher potential and i've done it numerous times on a dummy. The problem I was faced with is that my new raid group is using 3 melee and we needed more mob dps. So I went rage. I've almost got the hang of it. On Olok clear last night I was 2nd highest dps. We would have had more issues with that fight had I stayed Veng.

 

I'm in exactly the same situation. We often run 3 melee and the group lead wants a Maruader or Deception Assassin on the boss since they have better ST DPS (or so they say...). So I'm add-chasing and that just kills Vengeance. That is why I'm switching to Rage.

[Scooch]

We usually run 2M and 2R dps'ers. But for most fights I'm the add killer. Usually the only thing we have added to kill adds(in HM's anyway) was a sniper orbital. The only fight we don't rely on me to do adds is Thrasher. We send the 2 ranged up to deal with the adds and then they stay up top and dps the boss from there. We even refined that even more and sent only a Sorc dps up top and just had our sniper drop an orbital up there and that would take care of the adds.

 

But with the amount of dmg a good Rage jugg can do with AoE in such a short time, I sometimes wonder why I don't see more out there.

[ssfish]

But with the amount of dmg a good Rage jugg can do with AoE in such a short time, I sometimes wonder why I don't see more out there.

 

Because 1. it's squshy, 2. it's melee, and 3. other classes (Sorc) do it better.

 

Honestly, the only reason to bring a Jugg in progression raiding is because the player behind the Jugg is exceptional, or you run a strat that requires a DPS taunt. Juggernaut offers nothing that cannot be done better by another class. You, Laetius, Loufucai, Ark, and all the rest that run Juggs in progression raiding are successful because you play the class well, not because the class is ideal for the spot.

[Scooch]

Because 1. it's squshy, 2. it's melee, and 3. other classes (Sorc) do it better.

 

Honestly, the only reason to bring a Jugg in progression raiding is because the player behind the Jugg is exceptional, or you run a strat that requires a DPS taunt. Juggernaut offers nothing that cannot be done better by another class. You, Laetius, Loufucai, Ark, and all the rest that run Juggs in progression raiding are successful because you play the class well, not because the class is ideal for the spot.

 

Normally I wouldn't argue about people being better suited for a role than a Jugg. But as I said AoE, I've yet to meet someone who can do more AoE dps in less time than a Rage jugg. As far as a Sorc doing it better, their AoE is actually weaker than most. Unless they get an instant Chain Lightning(as Lightning) their aoe is very weak. Plus their Chain Lightning will never hit for 9k+ and their Force Storm hits for even less than a sweeping slash will. Even Madness won't put out as much AoE as a Rage Jugg.

 

As far a ST, yes a lot of other classes can do more if played by a top player. In fact the top ST dps'ers are generally Snipers. So you could do an entire raid with just snipers, is that an optimal makeup, maybe for some. But since 2.0 most classes are performing so close in ST that it's a moot point. Hence why I only said for AoE mechanics. And Jugg ST(even Rage) isn't that far behind the other ST classes to say they're not worth bringing to raids over other classes. I think the real problem is not enough people play it because of the stigma from pre 2.0 of it being a useless AC for dps.

[Starlite_Chobo]

I want to thank everyone for posting in this thread. This has been invaluable for me as an up-and-coming focus/rage player. There is a shortage of focus/rage guides on the forums and this has helped tremendously.

[Marb]

Well now this thread has been bumped:

 

I am having a lot of trouble even cracking 2700dps as rage, and this is as I have been gearing up compared to my earlier higher parses in 69's.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/403272/time/1377751462/1377751767/0/Damage+Dealt This is very typical of my dummy parses atm. I'm still rocking crafted implants and a few 69 armorings/enhancements, but everything is the good version (no high main stat mods, high endurance enhancements). 99.91 melee accuracy, dread guard damage proc, underworld power proc and force scream set bonus.

 

Which is counter to a previous parse I did little while ago, which put me a lot higher with a lower crit rate:

http://www.torparse.com/a/360458/time/1375098198/1375098500/0/Overview

This parse I had mostly 69's, arkanian power proc, dread guard click relic, less accuracy, ravage set bonus. Higher apm from the click relic.

 

Finding it hard to zone in on what I'm doing differently, the main differences are that I have started using a damage proc over the click relic and the 4 piece vindicator set bonus instead the 2/2.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Marb

[metaIsaber]

can you give us your full stats. I see you are using a proc relic. Which one? I use the underworld boundless ages relic.

[Scooch]

Well now this thread has been bumped:

 

I am having a lot of trouble even cracking 2700dps as rage, and this is as I have been gearing up compared to my earlier higher parses in 69's.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/403272/time/1377751462/1377751767/0/Damage+Dealt This is very typical of my dummy parses atm. I'm still rocking crafted implants and a few 69 armorings/enhancements, but everything is the good version (no high main stat mods, high endurance enhancements). 99.91 melee accuracy, dread guard damage proc, underworld power proc and force scream set bonus.

 

Which is counter to a previous parse I did little while ago, which put me a lot higher with a lower crit rate:

http://www.torparse.com/a/360458/time/1375098198/1375098500/0/Overview

This parse I had mostly 69's, arkanian power proc, dread guard click relic, less accuracy, ravage set bonus. Higher apm from the click relic.

 

Finding it hard to zone in on what I'm doing differently, the main differences are that I have started using a damage proc over the click relic and the 4 piece vindicator set bonus instead the 2/2.

 

Do me a favor and parse with the arkanian power proc instead of the dmg proc. One of the issues with Rage and a dmg proc is that you can't force it to proc as much as any class with a DoT. So you might be losing your dps with just that relic.

 

Your APM is only 1 difference so won't affect your dps by that much of a margin. Same with your Crit. The lower dps had you missing .29%(which was on Sunder only). So overall I would again say it's the Relic difference.(your ave dmg per hit for a lot of moves varied a bit; Some were higher by up to 300 dmg on the higher dps parse, and then again a few were lower by about 200 as well.)

 

Myself I run with the UW Ser Assault and a UW Boundless Ages

Edited August 29, 2013 by Scooch

[Marb]

Both parses were done using a serendipitous assault relic, the only difference is I used a dread guard force energy proc in place of a boundless ages on the first parse. I will do some more parses without the dmg proc.

 

Here are 2 parses using serendipitous assault and boundless ages:

http://www.torparse.com/a/404945/time/1377850330/1377850635/0/Overview

http://www.torparse.com/a/404945/time/1377850781/1377851086/0/Overview

 

I should be doing more damage with the gear I'm in, but my apm seems normal and my ability distribution looks right:

 

3 69 armorings

2 69 enhancements (high power)

Rest is 72 (high power)

Crafted Implants

4 piece vindicator

0 crit, 99.91% accuracy

Underworld Relic of Serendipitous Assault

Dread Guard relic of Boundless Ages

All augmented strength, 1 accuracy aug.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[metaIsaber]

I'll look at it more in depth, but ditch the 4 piece vindicator and go with the 2/2. Why you may ask? Look at Ravage %/dmg vs Force Scream %/dmg. With the 8% increase in scream on the vindicator you were only able to match the dmg of ravage. I did the math calculation and just by swapping the 8% around you will automatically be higher. Then you add the fact that ravage has the possibility to proc 3x vs 1 on FS, the overall dmg will be much higher

 

Here is one of mine. Tried to parse as close to your time as I could.

2829dps

http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/1/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Have you tried parsing without using saber throw in your rotation?

Also notice that i have 30 hits of Ravage vs your 24, so looks like you are not using Ravage as much as you should.

I'm using Vicious Slash more than you. I'm guessing it's in place of your saber throw. That would explain why i have more of the Force Lash than you.

 

Do you have all your Strength/Will Power and +10 datacron? every little bit helps. Seeing that my overall crit % is higher which will help with the dps. 34.26 vs 29.84

Edited August 30, 2013 by metaIsaber

[Marb]

I'll look at it more in depth, but ditch the 4 piece vindicator and go with the 2/2. Why you may ask? Look at Ravage %/dmg vs Force Scream %/dmg. With the 8% increase in scream on the vindicator you were only able to match the dmg of ravage. I did the math calculation and just by swapping the 8% around you will automatically be higher. Then you add the fact that ravage has the possibility to proc 3x vs 1 on FS, the overall dmg will be much higher

 

Here is one of mine. Tried to parse as close to your time as I could.

2829dps

http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/1/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Have you tried parsing without using saber throw in your rotation?

Also notice that i have 30 hits of Ravage vs your 24, so looks like you are not using Ravage as much as you should.

I'm using Vicious Slash more than you. I'm guessing it's in place of your saber throw. That would explain why i have more of the Force Lash than you.

 

Do you have all your Strength/Will Power and +10 datacron? every little bit helps. Seeing that my overall crit % is higher which will help with the dps. 34.26 vs 29.84

 

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I think the priority I'm using is a bit off, as I basically fit ravage in at a set spot as opposed to letting it fit in whenever its up and appropriate. My rage management seems to be off too, I am using sunder less then you, so that would explain the use of saber throw and less viscous slashes/force lash procs.

 

And yea, I have all the willpower and strength datacrons, I think the crit difference is just rng, some of my parses come out with 38%(?) crit rate sometimes, which is utterly random.

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at my parses.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[Scooch]

Yeah your 2 parses you linked seem really low. And the dps difference with the relic swap is odd as well. If you're using the Power clicky on cd, it should be much higher.

 

Here's my dummy parse(it's a little old), which I truncated to be the same length of time as your parses(which is 305s)

 

2863dps

 

APM's are about the same, Miss% is roughly the same, but my crit % is substantially higher. On most of my parses I'm usually around about 35% crit. Once in a while I get bad RNG and it dips to low 30's, but I don't usually see it as low as yours is. My parse wasn't anywhere near a perfect parse, I made some mistakes during it but if you compare them side by side, the largest difference is most of my abilities are having an average dmg per hit higher than yours. Otherwise the ability usage from our moves were within about 2 from all abilities.

 

My gear from that parse wasn't full 72's either, I needed a total of 4 pieces to get full 72(1 relic, 1 implant, 2 enhancements). I also was using the 4pc. The reason being is because your Force Scream crit is based on Force, and your Ravage is based on Melee. So you can have higher potential dmg coming from Force scream simply from crits(my average dmg per hit from Scream is 700 dmg higher and crit% is almost double that of Ravage) however looking at your highest parse(the 2650 one) your average dmg per hit between those 2 is only 171 AND you had a higher crit% on your Ravage by 11.5%. In looking at your parses you're getting significantly less crit from force scream(which if you're spec'd right, you shouldn't have that much of a difference and your melee ability shouldn't have that much higher crit than a force attack since by default you get 6% more force crit) then you are with ravage, which even with Ravage ticking 3 times, shouldn't add up to Ravage being that much higher. Even looking through most of my boss parses from recently my Ravage is never more than 3% higher crit than Scream and usually scream is much higher. So your parsing may just be bad RNG, but something is definitely off with your Force Crit.

[Scooch]

Here is one of mine. Tried to parse as close to your time as I could.

2829dps

http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/1/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Here is your parse truncated to the same exact time frame as his;

http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/time/1377865458/1377865763/0/Damage+Dealt

 

This will give a more accurate comparison to his parse since yours was 19s longer you had a lot more uses of most abilities.

[Marb]

Here is your parse truncated to the same exact time frame as his;

http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/time/1377865458/1377865763/0/Damage+Dealt

 

This will give a more accurate comparison to his parse since yours was 19s longer you had a lot more uses of most abilities.

 

There is nothing the force crit can be put down do other then rng. We are both running 0 crit gear, all datacrons, and I would wager our specs are identical. Apart from those things, there is a massive discrepancy in force crit between what I average and what I see on top Rage parses, but again I'm willing to wager that I just have bad luck.

 

The biggest difference with his parse is that he uses sunder, viscous slash and ravage more then me. I usually delay sunder so it finishes the cooldown on smash, making sure cascading power is reserved for everything else. This means I am using viscous slash less, and subbing in a saber throw to bring obliterate off cooldown sometimes because of the rage shortage.

 

My ravage uses are also slightly lower because of how I use it in a fixed spot (delay its use so it coincides with force crush ticks every time). I need loosen up my rotation a bit, will try some more parses and post results,

Edited August 31, 2013 by Marb

[Scooch]

There is nothing the force crit can be put down do other then rng. We are both running 0 crit gear, all datacrons, and I would wager our specs are identical. Apart from those things, there is a massive discrepancy in force crit between what I average and what I see on top Rage parses, but again I'm willing to wager that I just have bad luck.

 

The biggest difference with his parse is that he uses sunder, viscous slash and ravage more then me. I usually delay sunder so it finishes the cooldown on smash, making sure cascading power is reserved for everything else. This means I am using viscous slash less, and subbing in a saber throw to bring obliterate off cooldown sometimes because of the rage shortage.

 

My ravage uses are also slightly lower because of how I use it in a fixed spot (delay its use so it coincides with force crush ticks every time). I need loosen up my rotation a bit, will try some more parses and post results,

 

When the parse is truncated so that they're equal, he gets the following more than you;(dmg based on the ave dmg per hit) Obviously there could be some slight variance, but basing it on average dmg per hit is the best way to figure the math.

 

1 more Assault = 2215dmg

1 more Ravage = 10588.77dmg

2 more Sunders = 3587.44 dmg

5 more vicious slashes w/force lash = 16073.6 + 1176.05 = 17249.65

Total dmg comdined = 33640.76 combined dmg

 

In the same conditions you do the following more than him;

1 more Smash = 7823.72dmg

1 more obliterate = 3134.39dmg

1 more Force Crush = 4975.56dmg

7 more Saber Throws = 21208.25dmg

total dmg combined = 37141.92

 

 

So over all when you do the math based on average dmg per hit and add it all up, you actually did more dmg based on your choices. So the differences aren't exactly what you guys have been focusing solely on.

 

His Average dmg per hit from EVERY ability is higher than yours.(you beat him on Saber throw but he did only use it once) So the main difference between your parses actually comes from the crit and possibly his power.(I'm assuming he has more power than you) As far as ability usage, your choices added up to more dmg than his did.

 

The reason he has more Sunder usage, is because he's not using Saber throw. Even his 1 use of assault could've been better if he used Saber Throw instead. Assault only adds 2 Rage and even tho it hits 3 times the dmg if it doesn't crit can be horrid. Saber throw adds 3 Rage and if it doesn't crit "usually" equals the dmg from Assault or beats it.(his part he got 2 crits out of the 3 hits) Now if you also compare the dmg and rage between Saber throw and Sunder, Saber throw averages higher dmg than sunder but gives you 2 less Rage. So looking at the Rage management side of it;

 

His Rage;

1 assault(2 rage) + 2 Sunders(5 rage per) = 12 Rage

 

Your Rage;

7 Saber throws(3 rage per) = 14 Rage

 

So taking all of that into account your choices overall were potentially better. The shortcoming again stems from the crit difference(he has almost 5% more) and then his average dmg per hit is higher from his abilities. This stems partly from RNG and then partly from gear.(which I'm betting he's better geared than you are.)

[Marb]

Ok, that makes me feel a bit better, because I feel like my ability use and apm was optimal.

 

Still, that's a lot of dps disparity, and I can't imagine a few more 72's would close that much of a gap. I will post an AMR with my current gear and spec after ops tonight.

[Midorikawa]

Hey everyone, thank you for many great suggestions and tips here in this thread!.

 

I've respeced yesterday from my main's tank spec and I'm really happy with both rage spec itself and the numbers I'm parsing atm. Currently, I got 72 MH/OH, no set bonus and many bad 69/72 mods and enhancements.

 

3163 str

99.23% acc

20,57/27,00% crit

87,4% cm

 

I was probably lucky with crits and my bad acc so I got 2708 DPS

Really looking forward to raiding with this as I see great potential in rage spec!

[arkitip]

Assault is among the abilities that reduce the Obliterate and Smash CD though.

[Scooch]

Assault is among the abilities that reduce the Obliterate and Smash CD though.

 

Right, however Zerkhan didn't use assault and he got 1 more Smash and Obliterate than Metalsaber despite Metalsaber using assault.

 

Also notice I said potentially better. I never said he did everything perfect. I was trying to point out that the comments about his ability usage being why his dps was lower isn't entirely accurate. Because as I showed with the math breakdown that he actually did MORE dmg with the abilities he did over Metal. Again the main thing that was vastly different in the parsing was the crit % and the overall average dmg per hit. As far as abilities Zerkhan actually got 1 more smash in which is better than Metals extra uses of Vicious Slash which is the biggest ability difference.

 

I didn't look through Metalsaber's parse with a fine toothed comb, nor did I do that with Zerkhan's, but if Zerkhan got 1 more smash in even when Metal used Sunder, Assault, and V. Slash more often, then the ability usage isn't exactly the problem when you're comparing their parses to see where Zerkhan's dps is falling short.

[Marb]

The main difference is ravage. I only ever use ravage on a force crush smash cycle, I never attempt to put it in like this: force scream, viscous slash, ravage, obliterate< That is an ability sequence that I never use, and one that top rage parses DO use.

 

Going with my fixed rotation, I get in an extra smash cycle at the cost of a ravage and viscous slashes. This is only comparing 5 minute parses however and ignoring Ravage completely also gives more smash cycles, but results in less dps. There could be an issue with how I'm using Ravage.

 

I'm becoming more and more convinced that it IS a gear thing more than ability use though. My avg damage is lower on nearly every ability because of less power/surge. Bad luck on crits is just making the gap appear worse then it actually is too.

 

Also noting that I am playing with about 170ping from aus, but setting the GCD queue to 1 second has mostly allowed me to bypass the negative effects. My apm may be slightly lower on average due to the odd latency fluctuation.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Marb

[Starlite_Chobo]

Do me a favor and parse with the arkanian power proc instead of the dmg proc. One of the issues with Rage and a dmg proc is that you can't force it to proc as much as any class with a DoT. So you might be losing your dps with just that relic.

 

I use an UW SA relic and an Arkanian Kinetic Tempest dmg proc relic. Would I be better off with a clicky relic instead of the dmg proc? Or is the dmg proc better on average but just more random?