DarthTHC Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Maybe I'm wrong -- but I read Andryah's post as meaning literally only available via the CM. As in, it doesn't exist in-game. Like, if they introduced a level of gear above Kell Dragon that was only purchasable from the GTN, and was literally the best gear in the game. Or, if Kell Dragon had come out and been CM-only. Or if set-bonus gear only came from the CM. Things like that. That may not be what Andryah was getting at -- but that is how I view it. Andryah's post had 2 components in the definition of p2w: 1) Only available via cash shop 2) Gives a player a (winning) advantage over another It is the first component of the definition that I disagree with, and only because the word, "only" is in there. My disagreement is not about the teddy bear specifically, but about the general definition of "pay to win". My reason for that is in the original example I gave. If BWEA put a pvp chestpiece in the CM that was 20% or 200% better than the best that could be obtained via participation in pvp, but also treated it like any other CM item in that it can be posted to GTN within 2-3 days of acquisition, then that chest piece would not be considered pay to win according to the definition. I think reasonable people can agree such a chest piece would be pay to win, so the definition is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uruare Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I'd like to see some of you fine folks grind out legacy level 40 from a fresh account under the steeper legacy XP requirements. C'mon pals, you just have to go do some stuff and you'll have it in no time! See you in six months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) Maybe I'm wrong -- but I read Andryah's post as meaning literally only available via the CM. As in, it doesn't exist in-game. Like, if they introduced a level of gear above Kell Dragon that was only purchasable from the GTN, and was literally the best gear in the game. Or, if Kell Dragon had come out and been CM-only. Or if set-bonus gear only came from the CM. Things like that. That may not be what Andryah was getting at -- but that is how I view it. Correct. D-THC is pin-focusing on the fact that if it's in the CM it must be also tradeable... which is true.. but not relevant since there is no P2W content on the CM. I believe he is suggesting that they get a free "out-clause" on the grounds that because it can be traded to other players it breaks the classic definition of P2W and therefore is not P2W and they can do as they please with it. He want's a tighter definition in essence. But the devs have been clear that they will not be putting top tier end game gear in the CM period.... which means the first part of my definition stand in the context of this MMO. Edited July 2, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Maybe I'm wrong -- but I read Andryah's post as meaning literally only available via the CM. As in, it doesn't exist in-game. Like, if they introduced a level of gear above Kell Dragon that was only purchasable from the GTN, and was literally the best gear in the game. Or, if Kell Dragon had come out and been CM-only. Or if set-bonus gear only came from the CM. Things like that. That may not be what Andryah was getting at -- but that is how I view it. right. point is, you can sell anything in the cartel market on the gtn, so nothing in this game can every be p2w, no matter how greedy and horrible they get. if they put set bonus gear on the cartel market, the gtn would make it available in game for credits after someone pays rl money then puts it on the gtn. if subscribers had to buy an unlock on the cartel market for the new daily area, this would allow an option for them to buy it on gtn, so it's fair and nobody should complain about that. which they shouldn't complain anyway, because cartel coins are free to subscribers, so it the unlock would be free anyway. except bioware said they wouldn't do that. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Im not saying you are wrong with your definition but atleast see that people have different definitions. For example, my definition of P2W would include anything that bypasses content gating by paying real cash for it to open the gate. For me, bypassing legacy unlocks, with cash would be the same thing as paying cash to unlock your skill trees before you are leveled high enough to open them. I understand that some people wish to apply a different definition of P2W. I am simply reminding people how the term came into being and what it classically represents. By the way.. I do not agree with your definition.. but you are free to pitch it anyway. But I will keep reminding people what P2W in the genre means to the broader player base that has coined the term into our vocabulary to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 But the devs have been clear that they will not be putting top tier end game gear in the CM period.... which means the first part of my definition stand in the context of this MMO. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=569897 also, you shouldn't be telling us what the 'classic' definition of p2w is. there is no well accepted classic definition of p2w. you do not have the authority to tell other people what they should accept as a definition for a word. same with your posts that suggest you have some understanding of how large businesses operate. you just don't. one thing you and i have in common, is that we're just regular folks posting on an internet forum. neither of us are all that smart, neither of us are the CEO of EA, neither of us are Jeff Hickman, and neither of us get to retroactively define what everyone believes is the definition of p2w. kind of humbling, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammawaves Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) I'd like to see some of you fine folks grind out legacy level 40 from a fresh account under the steeper legacy XP requirements. C'mon pals, you just have to go do some stuff and you'll have it in no time! See you in six months. Well apparently you can just wave your magic credit card and bypass the level 40 legacy requirement with real money to get the Ewok. So there will be no need to grind anything in game. Edited July 2, 2013 by Gammawaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I'd like to see some of you fine folks grind out legacy level 40 from a fresh account under the steeper legacy XP requirements. C'mon pals, you just have to go do some stuff and you'll have it in no time! See you in six months. It comes naturally by playing the game. That is not a grind. Play flashpoints... legacy xp. Do dailies... legacy xp. Play alts... legacy xp. You are not grinding mobs for legacy xp unless you are not very bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) I understand that some people wish to apply a different definition of P2W. I am simply reminding people how the term came into being and what it classically represents. By the way.. I do not agree with your definition.. but you are free to pitch it anyway. But I will keep reminding people what P2W in the genre means to the broader player base that has coined the term into our vocabulary to begin with. You are correct in your classic definition. I feel as though MMOs evolved and the people playing them are different so definitions can be changed. Its not like its a websters dictionary definition. Laws change all the time... so can MMO terms. MMO term would be a better way to put it then definition IMO. Its fine that you disagree with the way I feel about it. It is however, the way I feel about it and Im sure a lot of other people do to. I wouldn't quit the game or get in an uproar over it, I will express my opinion on it. Edited July 2, 2013 by Soluss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Hi everyone, I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums. Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say: Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them. We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact. It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other. We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction. I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan. Thank you for your patience. This was a post in another thread. I believe it has relevance to this subject. The portion, that I believe, applies is: It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other. I think we can all agree that spending a tiny portion of cash is far more efficient then gaining 40 levels of legacy. So right here, in that very statement, EAware is going against their own stated intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revial Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 It comes naturally by playing the game. That is not a grind. Play flashpoints... legacy xp. Do dailies... legacy xp. Play alts... legacy xp. You are not grinding mobs for legacy xp unless you are not very bright. MMOs lost their way when they stopped making design choices around prolonging game play, and started making design choices aimed at shortcutting gameplay. While I completely agree with you, the person you are responding to is the customer SWTOR is catering to (and, to be fair, most MMOS in general). And, these companies can't figure out why they are unable to generate sustained revenue without designing micro transaction-based revenue streams? I often wonder if the game designers are really as stupid as they appear, or if there are so many levels of management over their head that they really have zero weight in how the game is designed, and are just code monkeys that implement said designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimbeFett Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I will have to respectfully disagree. I am a casual player (like a vast majority in the game) who has little time to "grind" for an "optional" companion. I fully endorse the use of the CM and have personally purchased almost $250 in Cartel Coins in the last 30 days for all of my new characters to unlock gear and legacy perks. I think Treek should be purchasable a multitude of ways INCLUDING Cartel Coins. Thanks Superman is a plant! Always pro-CM and bragging about his vast resources. Sounds more like someone hired by EA to promote CM and make you feel less bad about your own spending! To the OP; I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Correct. D-THC is pin-focusing on the fact that if it's in the CM it must be also tradeable... which is true.. but not relevant since there is no P2W content on the CM. I believe he is suggesting that they get a free "out-clause" on the grounds that because it can be traded to other players it breaks the classic definition of P2W and therefore is not P2W and they can do as they please with it. He want's a tighter definition in essence. But the devs have been clear that they will not be putting top tier end game gear in the CM period.... which means the first part of my definition stand in the context of this MMO. Only until they put the next thing into the CM that gives an ingame advantage. Like maybe bypassing a 40 Legacy Level grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 ^5 to you sir I like that someone who has the game "handled" wants to use CC. Nice timing He has legacy 50 and is looking to use CC's as an alternate method of payment, not bypass the legacy 40 requirement as you are looking to do. There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I've played since early start, high legacy level (40+) on multiple servers, and have multiple raid geared 50's. If I want to earn in game or buy outright should be my choice. I would rather have options. Not signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 we shall see and if is still legacy locked, i will move on. no skin off my back, although QQ you are seeing is coming from those with legacy lvl 40. as far as i am concerned, im good. Legacy 30 here and I oppose being able to bypass the legacy requirement, so you can make all the erroneous assumptions you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) Legacy 30 here and I oppose being able to bypass the legacy requirement, so you can make all the erroneous assumptions you want. In November 2012, they made all Legacy perks by-passable with cartel coins. Why is this one stuck in your paw? Legacy as a game element comes from the early days of the game and was put in to provide perks to players in a subscriber only business model. That model no longer exists. They moved to a flexible access model and with that came more choices for players in how they access content. You don't have to like it, but the game has moved on. That's what MMOs do.. they move forward and leave obsolete content behind all the time. Legacy while still a choice for the player is in many cases augmented with other choices in how to play and experience the game. And the staunch "grind it out" school of MMO is a dying breed. There will always be content accessible only under certain constraints (like raids, PvP, etc.) but there will also be content readily accessible by all and in different pathways. Companions are for solo play. They are integral to solo play in fact. A lot of players do a lot of solo play in this MMO... and I do NOT agree that they need to be heavy legacy veterans to gain access to solo play content. In the end, it's Biowares game and customer base. They will do what they assess is best for the game and the broader player base. Individual needs/wants/desires are of very secondary concern (yours, mine, everyones). Petitions, of any kind are silly. The petition to make Treek accessible via CC was silly and so is this one. We are players, discussing and presenting opinion.. much of which will be lost in another week when the next perceived travesty on the part of the developers falls on wounded souls in the forum. Edited July 2, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 In November 2012, they made all Legacy perks by-passable with cartel coins. Why is this one stuck in your paw? Legacy as a game element comes from the early days of the game and was put in to provide perks to players in a subscriber only business model. That model no longer exists. They moved to a flexible access model and with that came more choices for players in how they access content. You don't have to like it, but the game has moved on. That's what MMOs do.. they move forward and leave obsolete content behind all the time. Legacy while still a choice for the player is in many cases augmented with other choices in how to play and experience the game. And the staunch "grind it out" school of MMO is a dying breed. There will always be content accessible only under certain constraints (like raids, PvP, etc.) but there will also be content readily accessible by all and in different pathways. Companions are for solo play. They are integral to solo play in fact. A lot of players do a lot of solo play in this MMO... and I do NOT agree that they need to be heavy legacy veterans to gain access to solo play content. In the end, it's Biowares game and customer base. They will do what they assess is best for the game and the broader player base. Individual needs/wants/desires are of very secondary concern (yours, mine, everyones). Petitions, of any kind are silly. The petition to make Treek accessible via CC was silly and so is this one. We are players, discussing and presenting opinion.. much of which will be lost in another week when the next perceived travesty on the part of the developers falls on wounded souls in the forum. Obviously we are all entitled to our own opinion, I'm one of the middle of the road guys in regards to this topic. I don't care if they have the companion available via CC alongside being available through in game means but I do feel the legacy level restriction should stand with that CC purchase. Whether or not that means the legacy level needed should be addressed is a different matter I suppose but like I said, middle of the road here on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Since it's only possible to "win" in PvP, P2W only applies in the PvP setting. Treek has no bearing on how a player performs in PvP, therefore Treek is not P2W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentKitty Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I am quite happy with the legacy-lvl requirement. I am also pleased that I can choose to pay with CC or credits. So not signed in my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman_AZ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Superman is a plant! Always pro-CM and bragging about his vast resources. Sounds more like someone hired by EA to promote CM and make you feel less bad about your own spending! To the OP; I agree! I love your tinfoil hat. I'm guessing if I also say I enjoy playing the game, you will assume I parked my spaceship just outside Roswell. Some of us have more money than time, and actually like the game. I know it is hard to believe, especially when your own situation is likely reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman_AZ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 He has legacy 50 and is looking to use CC's as an alternate method of payment, not bypass the legacy 40 requirement as you are looking to do. There is a difference. If you read what he said, he agrees the companion should be purchasable via the CM WITHOUT any of the Legacy restrictions, and then added that he has all of the stories unlocked with a level 50 legacy. The final note was to lend weight to his opinion, not express support for a legacy purchase. Have to do more than see the words, have to understand the comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman_AZ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Since it's only possible to "win" in PvP, P2W only applies in the PvP setting. Treek has no bearing on how a player performs in PvP, therefore Treek is not P2W. True since PvE is never ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 True since PvE is never ending. So is Purgatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 So is Purgatory. I think that's supposed to be a joke of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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