Why do melee NPC have knockback ?

[rlamela]

My favorite NPC's were in the 2 heroic 2's on rep side Belsavis Dailies. They would pull me to them then knock me back. I mean if you didn't want me near you why the Heck did you pull me towards you.

[Cleet_Xia]

So, I'm tanking 3 melee mobs while my friend is killing the 2 ranged mobs. I'm taking damage

from 3 melee creatures - I knock one away - now I'm only taking damage from 2 melee creatures.

By the time the knocked mob returns, his buddies are dead and we finish him.

It seems bad for NPCs to have knockback when they chain them together on one player, but they

only do what their AI tells them (KB off CD = use KB)

In summary : melee NPCs have knockbacks to mitigate some melee damage upon themselves.

 

Yeah... The truth of it is that the AI just isn't sophisticated enough to determine if a KB is an appropriate action or not.

[PLynkes]

Yeah... The truth of it is that the AI just isn't sophisticated enough to determine if a KB is an appropriate action or not.

 

I have the same problem with my own personal AI. Playing my first Sith Warrior I have just gained a knockback ability. I love the effect it has when it sends an enemy flying like that, so I find myself using it a lot just to watch it happen and giggle. Then I think "Doh! He's all the way over there now, and my Force Leap is still on cooldown. What an idiot!"

 

So I do have some sympathy for these NPCs.

[Cleet_Xia]

Wait till you try a KB on a vanguard or a BH

 

to put them off a bridge in the Voidstar WZ

 

and they harpoon you over the side with them.

[znihilist]

My favorite NPC's were in the 2 heroic 2's on rep side Belsavis Dailies. They would pull me to them then knock me back. I mean if you didn't want me near you why the Heck did you pull me towards you.

That the main problem with it, Knockback+Pull. I understand if a human player does that (Sintank), but an NPC ???

[Snordek]

Melee mobs have knock-backs because knock-backs are interrupts. It will make more sense to you if you play a gunnery commando (arsenal merc) or telekinetics sage (lightening sorcerer).

 

There are really only a handful of abilities that NPCs have that can be used to interrupt player actions: pulls, knock-backs, cc abilities (like force choke and cryo-grenade), and that ion pulse that some ranged droids have. They are all very easily identifiable, visually, and thus don't feel "unfair" for the player experiencing them - spending any amount of time in PVP as a cast-time based class will make it clear that actual "interrupts" (mind snap, riot strike, distraction, etc) can blend in quite easily with other combat animations. It can be frustrating for players to suffer ability failure without an obvious cause, and while that is simply a part of PvP, it has no place in PvE.

 

So, no... It is not lazy design, or stupid AI, or any of the other nonsense being spouted in here. It's simply a way to add a bit of utility to a mob's toolkit, while teaching/reinforcing the idea that knock-backs can be used as interrupts to players.

[swtonewbie]

Melee mobs have knock-backs because knock-backs are interrupts. It will make more sense to you if you play a gunnery commando (arsenal merc) or telekinetics sage (lightening sorcerer).

 

So, no... It is not lazy design, or stupid AI, or any of the other nonsense being spouted in here. It's simply a way to add a bit of utility to a mob's toolkit, while teaching/reinforcing the idea that knock-backs can be used as interrupts to players.

 

It's a cheesy way to try to make packs of mobs more 'interesting'. And lets not try to kid ourselves...basic mob AI isnt smart, it's all scripted. They have a set of abilities and they have a set pattern in which they use them. The AI doesnt care if you are a commando or sorc with lots of casted/channeled abilities or a SW/JK with few casted/channeled. It's going to do the same pattern regardless. Some abilities require certain conditions be met before they get used IE they have to be in melee range of you, or you have to get within melee range of them. Or they have to detect an action first IE player is casting/channeling > interrupt.

 

I can go up against a mob that i know has an ion shock interrupt vs casted shots and do a power shot on my BH, watch it get interrupted and go neener neeener and cast a tracer missile at him. Or like the other guy who mentioned face pulling? i do that too on my SW/JK when going up against a turret i facepull or walk right up to it, get knocked back only to charge right back in.

[Snordek]

It's a cheesy way to try to make packs of mobs more 'interesting'. And lets not try to kid ourselves...basic mob AI isnt smart, it's all scripted. They have a set of abilities and they have a set pattern in which they use them. The AI doesnt care if you are a commando or sorc with lots of casted/channeled abilities or a SW/JK with few casted/channeled. It's going to do the same pattern regardless. Some abilities require certain conditions be met before they get used IE they have to be in melee range of you, or you have to get within melee range of them. Or they have to detect an action first IE player is casting/channeling > interrupt.

 

I can go up against a mob that i know has an ion shock interrupt vs casted shots and do a power shot on my BH, watch it get interrupted and go neener neeener and cast a tracer missile at him. Or like the other guy who mentioned face pulling? i do that too on my SW/JK when going up against a turret i facepull or walk right up to it, get knocked back only to charge right back in.

 

I never said it wasn't scripted, or that it was opponent-specific behavior. All of the mobs have predictable actions, but that doesn't equate to "lazy design" or "stupid" AI (as it has been called previously in this thread). These mobs don't exist to provide a great degree of challenge to players, as the vast majority exist to facilitate the leveling process. Part of that process involves a player learning his/her own class abilities, as well as the abilities of the other classes in the game. As was pointed out before, NPCs have abilities that are similar to those possessed by player classes, though not always in the same combinations. This helps familiarize players with the various abilities (and their effects) that they'll encounter in group-based content. Your own example of using power shot as interrupt bait against a mob with the ion shock ability is a perfect example of the sorts of things that players can learn from interactions with these sorts of mobs (and an example of PvP and PvE strategies overlapping - fake casting to draw out wasted interrupts can be quite effective in the right circumstances).

 

So, again, to the original question, melee mobs have knock-backs because a) it acts an easily identifiable interrupt, b) because players (including melee classes) have them, and c) it helps teach and reinforce game concepts. They do not have knock-backs because "herpderp biofail makes dumb npcs."

[swtonewbie]

Your own example of using power shot as interrupt bait against a mob with the ion shock ability is a perfect example of the sorts of things that players can learn from interactions with these sorts of mobs (and an example of PvP and PvE strategies overlapping - fake casting to draw out wasted interrupts can be quite effective in the right circumstances).

 

You know what i call it? i call it cheesing a fight, i'll call it that even though i do it. I know that the NPC is going to interrupt the instant i put a cast up. The NPC isnt going to wait until my cast is 90% complete *then* interrupt and point and laugh at me. The NPC sees a cast and interrupts it at that instant, so obviously you cant even fake cast with the actual ability you want to use. It's done this way because a script that interrupts on cast is simpler to create then one that interrupts when a spell has progressed a certain amount. In PVP it's different because you are playing head games with somebody. An experienced PVPer will know about fake casts and adjust their strat accordingly. But vs an NPC? all i gotta do is use his scripted behavior against him.

 

There's plenty of other examples too. Rounding up punter mobs using my comp and AOEing them down. Going against mobs with cannons and interrupting them as they turn on ion cylinder, because i know it keeps them from doing some specials and they will have to reload it again in a few seconds. Attacking the nearest ranged mob from my max range which will force all spread out range mobs closer towards me and attack me from their max range (which is the same as mine) which puts me in a position to hit them with an AOE.

 

And lazy design? it's kinda hard for me to think they are being creative when i leap into a pack and i get hit with 4-5 poison darts, and their first special attacks leaves 4-5 poison debuffs on me. It's not related to punting or anything, but the pack that does this or opens up with multiple attacks of the same type just seem kinda lame.

 

EDIT: also Star Trek Online has done some changes to the way mobs react. You can use plasma grenades on ground missions and it will leave a patch of plasma fire on the ground. When you throw it at a group of 4-5 mobs they will move out of the plasma fire. To me that is what i think when i hear 'smart AI'...granted its just another script that tells them 'if ground hurts then move'. But in SWTOR a pack will stand happily in your non rooting ground AOE. Then again STOs AI isnt all that great in some areas. Space combat still consists of enemy ships engaging you at 10 kilometers and flying right up to you until you are bumping hulls.

Edited June 30, 2013 by swtonewbie

[znihilist]

You know what i call it? i call it cheesing a fight, i'll call it that even though i do it. I know that the NPC is going to interrupt the instant i put a cast up. The NPC isnt going to wait until my cast is 90% complete *then* interrupt and point and laugh at me. The NPC sees a cast and interrupts it at that instant, so obviously you cant even fake cast with the actual ability you want to use.

 

I never saw that behavoir before! For me (on my melee DPS) I noticed that they use knockback on a regular interval: Every X seconds. So I time my only channeled (Ravage) around that timer.