Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[Cranberries]

Because a portion of the playerbase will pervert it. Have you played WoW at all in the past, oh, 7 years?

 

Damage meters invariably lead to pressure on fellow gamers AND developers to correct some perceived "problem" with Class X's damage or Class Y's healing. What starts off as a metric becomes a tool to flood these forums with calls for NERFS or BUFFS where even a .01% difference is too great for many players to bear.

 

If you need proof of this, look at any WoW forum and the "hybrid versus pure" debates that still come up these days, the number of threads saying "I'm number 3 on DPS meters and should be #1" plus the community pressure of "casuals" versus "dedicated" -- or "you're not modded correctly, learn to play noob, get out of my Op!"

 

Consider these metrics to be the Force. You can do good with it, or evil. These MMO communities tend to go to the Dark Side in such matters.

You give a man a computer and he hacks people.

 

You give a man a child and he hurts it.

 

You give a man damage meters and he abuses them.

 

Should we lose our computers? Our children? Our damage meters? Just because some people abuse them?

[RWScissors]

Wow, awesome!

[Kourage]

Woot just like in WoW, the whiners win!

 

Woot just like in WoW, the baddies lose!

[Samlin]

Absolutely. And it happens all the time. The place kicker gets a ring for winning the Super Bowl, even though his overall contribution is much less than the 5 TD throwing QB. Welcome to real life.

 

We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Any adult who works in a group setting knows there are varying levels of aptitude. Your analogy isn't even close to what we're saying here, anyway. To make it more apt, the 4th person would have done the artistic rendering and display work, while the other 3 did the tougher job of putting together the project. We can say, then, had the 4th person done nothing, the group would have failed. His contribution was just as important as the others.

 

The only metric is success.

 

You're free to make groups with mirror builds and no creative differences, but you're not free to state that this is the only way the project could be done.

 

I often work in groups as an electrical engineer. So yes, I KNOW efficiency. That's precisely why I play a game that doesn't require it. I also know that the BS grad intern hasn't got the skills I do, and may have another way to accomplish a task that wouldn't be my choice. These differences are how we learn to do things better. Simply mimicking someone else is intellectually lazy, and the true genius shows himself by finding a new, better way through alternative means - means people like you would never stumble upon because of your allegiance to "the best way".

 

In fact, I would go as far to say the person trying different things is doing much more valuable service to the game than the people parroting what they get from others. You mimic without questioning, which takes the least amount of effort possible.

 

I worry when an electrical engineer avoids scientific process, the use of tools to objectively prove a methodology, in place of "being creative". I really hope you don't kill anyone.

[AHierophant]

Yeah elitism sucks, but it's going to be there whether or not there is a combat log. >.>

 

I mean really. Poor attitudes come from players, not from inanimate objects (aka tools).

 

And there are just as many people with the poor attitude of "I can do whatever I want and I don't care if it hurts other people because I'm having fun and my fun is all that matters"

as there are people with elitist mentalities.

 

The real answer to all of this is just to find people like minded, whether it be those that don't analyze combat and "leave no child behind" regardless of individual performance or those that min max till the cows come home.

 

I can't argue with the source of the issues involved with DPS meters. That's absolutely true. It's more of a question of "Is the benefits of having damage meters outweighing the costs?" and I have to think it does not. We've all seen how damage meters wrecked the raiding community in WoW - it gave people the tools to instantly discriminate against other players without even giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, simple because the maximized potential damage in an idealized setting was slightly lower for the build they were using - even if such idealized conditions rarely exist in the game.

 

In other words, damage meters are a precursor to the generalizations like "He's not a 34 in Sharpshooter, so automatically a bad."

[Morcova]

Because a portion of the playerbase will pervert it.

 

And?

 

Unless you think those players were somehow made rude by the tool your argument is null and void.

 

Can you imagine what the world would be like if we got rid of every tool that could be misused?

[WereMops]

Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others?

 

Because I don't need/want another group where some moron who refuses to use any CC skill or step out of fire just so he can be top DPS and complain about the other dps who does their job well (CC, offtanking, helping squishier classes etc) but doesn't get the same dps he/she does, got sick of that in WoW.

 

EDIT: I'm fine with combat logs and out of game parsers but I don't want that crap in game.

Edited December 24, 2011 by WereMops

[Battyone]

I can't argue with the source of the issues involved with DPS meters. That's absolutely true. It's more of a question of "Is the benefits of having damage meters outweighing the costs?" and I have to think it does not. We've all seen how damage meters wrecked the raiding community in WoW - it gave people the tools to instantly discriminate against other players without even giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, simple because the maximized potential damage in an idealized setting was slightly lower for the build they were using - even if such idealized conditions rarely exist in the game.

 

In other words, damage meters are a precursor to the generalizations like "He's not a 34 in Sharpshooter, so automatically a bad."

 

I'm going to disagree. Talent trees and the perception of what is best lead to that. In addition damage meters did not "wreck the raiding community in wow" we've had them since at least BWL in one form or another! Man if they ruined raiding was molten core and ony the only raids that were not ruined?!

[Samlin]

Because I don't need/want another group where some moron who refuses to use any CC skill or step out of fire just so he can be top DPS and complain about the other dps who does their job well (CC, offtanking, helping squishier classes etc) but doesn't get the same dps he/she does, got sick of that in WoW.

 

This is such an obvious straw man argument. Just because tools to measure dps exist it doesn't make dps paramount to everything else. Kick the idiot who stands in fire and continue on like normal.

[Yvin]

Hi folks,

 

We've had to remove a few posts from this thread. Please be sure that when replying to threads, your replies are on-topic, constructive and respectful of one another. Please do not attack each other or make rude comments regarding how other community members play. If you feel someone is violating the Rules of Conduct, please use the Flag feature to report the post to the Community Team and do not respond to it.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Battyone]

Because I don't need/want another group where some moron who refuses to use any CC skill or step out of fire just so he can be top DPS and complain about the other dps who does their job well (CC, offtanking, helping squishier classes etc) but doesn't get the same dps he/she does, got sick of that in WoW.

 

That's the raid leaders responsibility to manage. DPS who do their job well can still provide good numbers, people who tunnel on meters are just as bad as people who don't, and it becomes VERY obvious when interrupts are missed at the high end game level when missing them can (And generally does) lead to deaths/wipes.

 

To put this into perspective;

 

I once was the ranged DPS leader of a moderately successful guild. I've had to remove people from raid who topped meters but stood in fire, or missed an interrupt, or otherwise didn't do mechanics properly. If the officer can't stand up to someone because "their numbers are 1337 yo" then they should not be an officer.

 

At the end of the day it all boils down to the players themselves, not logs, not parsers. It's the people that kill people, not the blaster.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Battyone

[Stoicraven]

old news

[Loekii]

Imo, Elitism only works, if the populace wants it, or buys into it.

 

 

If you stop judging people via the Metric Scores, then you are help lesson the chances others will use it as a tool to judge you.

 

 

Imo, meters are simply a tool. How you choose to use it, is what determines if it is 'bad' or 'good'.

 

 

Imo, if you really want to lesson the impact of meters, a good start is stop using it to judge other players first.

[Liberate]

Can't say I will enjoy 'that one guy' who links the DPS meter every time he's first.

 

 

Funny how that works. I won't tank for people who think they're leet because they can cookie cutter spec/mash the correct rotation of buttons. And if general chat is any indication of the lack of tanks, people better watch their elitist attitude or they're gone from my group.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Liberate

[AHierophant]

I worry when an electrical engineer avoids scientific process, the use of tools to objectively prove a methodology, in place of "being creative". I really hope you don't kill anyone.

 

 

Repeating it so you might comprehend.

 

I often work in groups as an electrical engineer. So yes, I KNOW efficiency. That's precisely why I play a game that doesn't require it.

 

In this small paragraph, we learn about implication. The author implies as an electrical engineer, he is intrinsically aware of the need for efficiency in the real life scenarios he deals with. Then he talks of the complete opposite of the real world, a game, so we can follow that he wants to abandon the need for efficiency since it is a fantasy world with no last consequences.

[WereMops]

This is such an obvious straw man argument. Just because tools to measure dps exist it doesn't make dps paramount to everything else. Kick the idiot who stands in fire and continue on like normal.

 

I kicked them, I put them on ignore, ignore list got full, the funny thing is I rarely if ever had that problem with players who didn't use recount or any other damagemeter.

[GoldPush]

I can't argue with the source of the issues involved with DPS meters. That's absolutely true. It's more of a question of "Is the benefits of having damage meters outweighing the costs?"

There is absolutely no cost to it..

 

You say you work as an electrical engineer. When you want to connect two parts would you just randomly connect parts or would you check speCifications? Would you nor use a voltmeter or other tools in your job?!

 

There are always ways to improve on what we have (eg a rotation) but someone always lays down the foundation/basis for others to follow. Should we ignore it? Should we not have the tools to find a baseline to improve on? Should we not be able to compete and improve ourselves? The very core of evolution..

[Battyone]

Can't say I will enjoy 'that one guy' who links the DPS meter every time he's first.

 

 

Funny how that works.

 

One other thing that helps are rules for your raid. It isn't hard to tell someone to not link meters in raid chat or get booted. It's not hard to say "If you think someone is doing poorly take it up with an officer outside the raid or get booted."

 

4-mans will have those people but given how servers are isolated communities the people like that will get their reputation and find it harder and harder to get groups, assuming the player base stands up for what they want and believe in there will be no place in the game for them. Once again, it all comes down to the players, especially the ones who take up a leadership role.

[AHierophant]

I'm going to disagree. Talent trees and the perception of what is best lead to that. In addition damage meters did not "wreck the raiding community in wow" we've had them since at least BWL in one form or another! Man if they ruined raiding was molten core and ony the only raids that were not ruined?!

 

I would argue that yes, the raiding community began a decline around the same time. It hardly was so pronounced, though. But by Wrath it was obvious there was a set of "ok" builds and these were all you could have if you wished to raid.

[WereMops]

That's the raid leaders responsibility to manage. DPS who do their job well can still provide good numbers, people who tunnel on meters are just as bad as people who don't, and it becomes VERY obvious when interrupts are missed at the high end game level when missing them can (And generally does) lead to deaths/wipes.

 

To put this into perspective;

 

I once was the ranged DPS leader of a moderately successful guild. I've had to remove people from raid who topped meters but stood in fire, or missed an interrupt, or otherwise didn't do mechanics properly. If the officer can't stand up to someone because "their numbers are 1337 yo" then they should not be an officer.

 

At the end of the day it all boils down to the players themselves, not logs, not parsers. It's the people that kill people, not the blaster.

 

So if I understand you correctly we could limit the damagemeter to only measure raidgroups and guildgroups so normal people doesn't have to deal with it, yes please.

[Stugotz]

Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others?

 

Players with juvenile attitudes are why a lot of folks can have a lot more fun without the parsers and some players. Personally I don't care if the meters are in or out..I won't bother with them or anyone who finds them important enough to use them to condemn another player. This game is not that important in my live to worry about such childishness.

[qqemokitty]

There is absolutely no cost to it..

 

You say you work as an electrical engineer. When you want to connect two parts would you just randomly connect parts or would you check speCifications? Would you nor use a voltmeter or other tools in your job?!

 

There are always ways to improve on what we have (eg a rotation) but someone always lays down the foundation/basis for others to follow. Should we ignore it? Should we not have the tools to find a baseline to improve on? Should we not be able to compete and improve ourselves? The very core of evolution..

 

I think the whole point is that poster does not want to apply the same amount type of effort to the game that they do to their real life work. Which is fine and understandable.

 

And as long as I don't end up grouped with said people it's no big deal to me.

[Samlin]

Repeating it so you might comprehend.

 

I often work in groups as an electrical engineer. So yes, I KNOW efficiency. That's precisely why I play a game that doesn't require it.

 

In this small paragraph, we learn about implication. The author implies as an electrical engineer, he is intrinsically aware of the need for efficiency in the real life scenarios he deals with. Then he talks of the complete opposite of the real world, a game, so we can follow that he wants to abandon the need for efficiency since it is a fantasy world with no last consequences.

 

Oh that's cute. Really stop trying to justify the fact you willingly waste other peoples time. The game isn't there to be played how you like it, the fact the developers wish to add dps meters proves this. You're a minority you're going to have to either deal with it or move on.

[GoldPush]

I think the whole point is that poster does not want to apply the same amount type of effort to the game that they do to their real life work. Which is fine and understandable.

 

And as long as I don't end up grouped with said people it's no big deal to me.

And thats fine but that doesn't mean the game should'nt have it but that I should not have to play with such casual players by my own choice =]

[Stugotz]

And thats fine but that doesn't mean the game should'nt have it but that I should not have to play with such casual players by my own choice =]

 

That's fine with me as well as I choose not to team with people who takes video games so seriously.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Stugotz