Pyrotech rebalancing

[JackNader]

Pyrotech

 

Anyone familiar with the pyrotech tree knows how badly it was nerfed with the 2.0 changes. The spec got its combust spec DOT cut in half and there were changes made to the flamesweep and the thermal detonator mechanic. These changes were made to rain in pyrotechs burst as well as to try and make hybrids less effective. Unfortunately, the changes made were not well received and as a result, most people stopped playing their pyrotechs for stronger classes.

 

The one thing pyrotechs used to have was burst. Flame burst proccing the combust spec DOT took care of the sustained DPS while Rail Shot and Rocket Punch applied the burst. Halving combust specs DOT resulted in significantly lower sustained damage which also had the effect of cutting its burst potential. The problem with this is that Pyrotechs do not have many defensive cooldowns. They were always considered glass cannons. People overlooked their squishy nature because they had the potential to do a lot of burst damage and tear down targets faster than they could themselves be taken out. This really isn't the case anymore. Pyrotechs have to play a more defensive roll if they want to keep pumping out high numbers.

 

There are essentially 3 main problems currently with the tree:

 

1)

 

The first issue is incendiary missile. The ability is difficult to put into any rotation because of its high heat cost. It's heat to damage ratio is really really bad.

 

According to my tooltip incendiary missile deals 893 - 1013 damage upfront and an additional 3045 damage over 18 seconds. The dot damage starts ticking 3 seconds after it is cast. Let's assume that it applies all its damage instantly. The ability can be treated as doing 3938 - 4058 damage. (3938 + 4058) / 2 / 22 heat cost. This equates to 181 damage per heat expended.

 

 

* EDITED to correct math flaw

 

According to my tooltip, Flame burst deals 1790 - 1911 and applies a combust spec dot which ticks for 361 additional damage per tic. This means flame burst can be treated as doing 2151 - 2272. Flame burst also has a 45% chance to proc PPA. An alternative way of looking at the PPA proc is that it can be viewed as lowering the heat cost of flame burst.

 

Rail shot is listed in my tool tip as doing 2716 - 3154. It has 75% armor penetration and deals an additional 9% damage to burning targets. I do not know what the armor rating of any of the test dummies are so it makes it very difficult to gain an accurate result. I will treat it as doing full damage despite the fact that it will deal anywhere from 4 - 15% less damage depending on armor rating of the target. To be as fair as possible I will ignore the 9% damage bonus to burning targets. Note that combust specs dot will tic on every rail shot proc so it's damage must be included.

 

For simplicities sake I will also ignore rocket punch.

 

Rail shot is on a 6 second cooldown. Every PPA gives you a free railshot. Aditionally, superheated rail vents 8 heat when it strikes a burning target.. Their are 4 GCD events every 6 seconds.

 

The expected heat cost of 3 flameburst + 1 railshot = 16 + 16 + 16 - 8 = 40 heat.

 

( (2151 + 2272) / 2 * 3 + ( (2716 + 3154) / 2 +361 ) ) / 40 = ( 6634.5 + 2935 + 361 ) / 40 = 248.26 damage to heat ratio.

 

 

Now granted, this math isn't perfect. What it does do is give us a rough idea of how incendiary missile performs in relation to the standard flame burst + rail shot rotation. Incendiary missile comes up short in a big way which is why many players don't even both to cast it. To add insult to injury, incendiary missile can also be cleansed and if you re-apply its dot early, you actually decrease its damage to heat ratio even further.

 

 

Suggestion -

 

a) Lower incendiary missiles heat cost to 16 and add some other effect to it that ties it into the rest of the tree.

 

 

2)

 

The next issue is the new volatile igniter talent.

 

Pyrotech is a single target DPS spec. That was always its job. Advanced pyrotech is the powertechs AOE heavy tree. Now I get that nobody was using the flame sweep talent for pyrotech. This is simply because the classes job is to burn down targets fast. Flamesweep does not fit this description. The other problem is that since the combust spec DOT was halved, it's not even worth wasting a global applying it to multiple targets. The talent just doesn't fit the tree at all. If you must add some kind of AOE to the tree then it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't detract from its single target focus.

 

Suggestion

 

a) Railshots that hit burning targets explode applying your combust spec DOT to all targets within 5m. This would actually make the talent worth getting.

 

 

3)

 

The final problem with the tree is Thermal detonator.

 

Virtually nobody uses Thermal detonator. Most players drop it and pick up more utility while sacrificing very little damage in the process. It's a top tier talent and needs to be vital to the tree's success. Imagine AP without immolate, shield Tech without Heat Blast, Concealment without Acid blade. Thermal detonator needs to be critical to the success of the build.

 

Solution.

 

Thermal detonator applies a debuff which causes your next rail shot to hit 10 - 20% harder.

 

 

class fixed

 

kthxbye.

 

ps. One last thing that bugs me is shoulder cannon. Shoulder cannon should load ALL it's missiles instantly so that players can actually burst with it every 1.5 minutes. I would also like to see it given some armor pen or perhaps allow it to do more damage to targets below 30%. This way players would save it as an execute.

 

*EDIT

 

Change the 4m interrupt to 10m please so that its more inline with the 10 - 30m range of almost every other ability they have.

Edited July 3, 2013 by JackNader

[BlockaidRunner]

Very good points, all of them. Bioware, fix this class tree!

[Brunner_Venda]

Add in one more.

 

Automated Defense is a waste of a skill. Unlike Energy Rebounder in the AP tree, it has no defensive redoubt proc. Redoubt gives the AP a shield that can absorb a small amount of damage, it can activate once every ten seconds.

 

Fix: Give automated defenses a random proc to heal us for a small amount every ten seconds or so.

 

Kolto overload by itself is an *** skill. It only works when you're already low enough on health to be executed, and it doesn't take you out of the execute health amount. So it end up being the 'press this and just die anyways" button.

[JackNader]

heheh, yeh. The 2.0 kolto overload changes actually do suck. The random chance to heal a small % of health when taking damage would be a nice addition.

 

Degauss should be changed as well. Hydraulic overrides is enough. I would rather see this talent changed to something that buffs shoulder cannon ... aka armor penetration

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I would rather KEEP the Flame Sweep talent and get RID of the Degauss talent in favor of your suggested AOE Rail shot burn.

[Warforever]

there have been many post regarding VG/PT nerf. The Devs don't care. If they did, we would have heard a response from them by now.

 

I'm a level 43 Vanguard and I have a level 32 PT. I actually just finished playing a WZ and wrote down, what each ability did, damage wise. Its a joke. I could barely take on someone by myself...I did but it took me always. I'm playing tactics. I know the rotations... and I have all purple mods and armoring.

 

stock strike - between 2k and 2800k

high impact bolt with the proc for instant crit - 4900k - 5100k I have yet to go over that number!!!!

Ion Pulse - meh...between 1500k - 2300k

Pulse cannon with 3 stacks - nothing over 2600k and that's only seeing 2600 pop up once.

 

THIS IS F'IN RIDICULOUS AND BW DOESNT CARE. I've been pretty cordial on this post but this is ****-in bad. It's really starting to piss me off that we cant get an answer as to what is happening to our class. W T F BW???????

[Sardonyyx]

Good points, but I disagree with your flame burst theorem, PPA makes you're next rail shot vent 8heat, so it would make the cost of rail shot 8, not flame burst. Also Rocket punch has a 65% chance still. Another tithing that I notice you didn't mention was the nerf to the "Puncture" skill, we lost 15% armor penetration from rail shot, making us way less effective, 90% armor pen was crucial to the build, being knocked down to 75% sucks. Edited June 24, 2013 by Sardonyyx

[Sardonyyx]

there have been many post regarding VG/PT nerf. The Devs don't care. If they did, we would have heard a response from them by now.

 

I'm a level 43 Vanguard and I have a level 32 PT. I actually just finished playing a WZ and wrote down, what each ability did, damage wise. Its a joke. I could barely take on someone by myself...I did but it took me always. I'm playing tactics. I know the rotations... and I have all purple mods and armoring.

 

stock strike - between 2k and 2800k

high impact bolt with the proc for instant crit - 4900k - 5100k I have yet to go over that number!!!!

Ion Pulse - meh...between 1500k - 2300k

Pulse cannon with 3 stacks - nothing over 2600k and that's only seeing 2600 pop up once.

 

THIS IS F'IN RIDICULOUS AND BW DOESNT CARE. I've been pretty cordial on this post but this is ****-in bad. It's really starting to piss me off that we cant get an answer as to what is happening to our class. W T F BW???????

 

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but you're only level 43 and 32, you can't accurately tell us any info about the class because you're not max level, which is mostly what these are for. When you get to 55 is when it matters, until then you shouldn't complain about underperforming in the class because you don't know what everyone else is doing, they could be higher level than you, or just have more expertise. Also the fact that you're not 55 makes me think that you started paying post 2.0 and had no idea what the class was capable of before in the spec you're running.

 

Not trying to be an arse, just hate when lowbies come on here and complain when they have nothing to complain about yet lol.

[JackNader]

Good points, but I disagree with your flame burst theorem, PPA makes you're next rail shot vent 8heat, so it would make the cost of rail shot 8, not flame burst. Also Rocket punch has a 65% chance still. Another tithing that I notice you didn't mention was the nerf to the "Puncture" skill, we lost 15% armor penetration from rail shot, making us way less effective, 90% armor pen was crucial to the build, being knocked down to 75% sucks.

 

Railshot is free with PPA. Any rail shot striking a burning target vents 8 heat. You're right tho, my math i a little out. I did type that up late last night so I will have to take a look at it again and correct it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by JackNader

[Aetrus]

Revert the TD nerf and remake Energy Rebounder into a passive ability for all Powertechs. This would buff Shieldtech to put it on par with Jugg tanks, it would allow them to remove the 2 point Energy Rebounder talent and replace it with something actually helpful to AP, such as a 2 point talent which lowers the CD on Immolate by 2.5/5 seconds and increases its damage by 5/10%. And it would also fix Pyrotech.

 

2 simple moves. Nothing elaborate or something that would screw with game mechanics. PT problems solved. Your move, BW.

[Herbzta]

Pyrotech

 

Anyone familiar with the pyrotech tree knows how badly it was nerfed with the 2.0 changes. The spec got its combust spec DOT cut in half and there were changes made to the flamesweep and the thermal detonator mechanic. These changes were made to rain in pyrotechs burst as well as to try and make hybrids less effective. Unfortunately, the changes made were not well received and as a result, most people stopped playing their pyrotechs for stronger classes.

 

The one thing pyrotechs used to have was burst. Flame burst proccing the combust spec DOT took care of the sustained DPS while Rail Shot and Rocket Punch applied the burst. Halving combust specs DOT resulted in significantly lower sustained damage which also had the effect of cutting its burst potential. The problem with this is that Pyrotechs do not have many defensive cooldowns. They were always considered glass cannons. People overlooked their squishy nature because they had the potential to do a lot of burst damage and tear down targets faster than they could themselves be taken out. This really isn't the case anymore. Pyrotechs have to play a more defensive roll if they want to keep pumping out high numbers.

 

There are essentially 3 main problems currently with the tree:

 

1)

 

The first issue is incendiary missile. The ability is difficult to put into any rotation because of its high heat cost. It's heat to damage ratio is really really bad.

 

According to my tooltip incendiary missile deals 893 - 1013 damage upfront and an additional 3045 damage over 18 seconds. The dot damage starts ticking 3 seconds after it is cast. Let's assume that it applies all its damage instantly. The ability can be treated as doing 3938 - 4058 damage. (3938 + 4058) / 2 / 22 heat cost. This equates to 181 damage per heat expended.

 

 

* EDITED to correct math flaw

 

According to my tooltip, Flame burst deals 1790 - 1911 and applies a combust spec dot which ticks for 361 additional damage per tic. This means flame burst can be treated as doing 2151 - 2272. Flame burst also has a 45% chance to proc PPA. An alternative way of looking at the PPA proc is that it can be viewed as lowering the heat cost of flame burst.

 

Rail shot is listed in my tool tip as doing 2716 - 3154. It has 75% armor penetration and deals an additional 9% damage to burning targets. I do not know what the armor rating of any of the test dummies are so it makes it very difficult to gain an accurate result. I will treat it as doing full damage despite the fact that it will deal anywhere from 4 - 15% less damage depending on armor rating of the target. To be as fair as possible I will ignore the 9% damage bonus to burning targets. Note that combust specs dot will tic on every rail shot proc so it's damage must be included.

 

For simplicities sake I will also ignore rocket punch.

 

Rail shot is on a 6 second cooldown. Every PPA gives you a free railshot. Aditionally, superheated rail vents 8 heat when it strikes a burning target.. Their are 4 GCD events every 6 seconds.

 

The expected heat cost of 3 flameburst + 1 railshot = 16 + 16 + 16 - 8 = 40 heat.

 

( (2151 + 2272) / 2 * 3 + ( (2716 + 3154) / 2 +361 ) ) / 40 = ( 6634.5 + 2935 + 361 ) / 40 = 248.26 damage to heat ratio.

 

 

Now granted, this math isn't perfect. What it does do is give us a rough idea of how incendiary missile performs in relation to the standard flame burst + rail shot rotation. Incendiary missile comes up short in a big way which is why many players don't even both to cast it. To add insult to injury, incendiary missile can also be cleansed and if you re-apply its dot early, you actually decrease its damage to heat ratio even further.

 

 

Suggestion -

 

a) Lower incendiary missiles heat cost to 16 and add some other effect to it that ties it into the rest of the tree.

 

 

2)

 

The next issue is the new volatile igniter talent.

 

Pyrotech is a single target DPS spec. That was always its job. Advanced pyrotech is the powertechs AOE heavy tree. Now I get that nobody was using the flame sweep talent for pyrotech. This is simply because the classes job is to burn down targets fast. Flamesweep does not fit this description. The other problem is that since the combust spec DOT was halved, it's not even worth wasting a global applying it to multiple targets. The talent just doesn't fit the tree at all. If you must add some kind of AOE to the tree then it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't detract from its single target focus.

 

Suggestion

 

a) Railshots that hit burning targets explode applying your combust spec DOT to all targets within 5m. This would actually make the talent worth getting.

 

 

3)

 

The final problem with the tree is Thermal detonator.

 

Virtually nobody uses Thermal detonator. Most players drop it and pick up more utility while sacrificing very little damage in the process. It's a top tier talent and needs to be vital to the tree's success. Imagine AP without immolate, shield Tech without Heat Blast, Concealment without Acid blade. Thermal detonator needs to be critical to the success of the build.

 

Solution.

 

Thermal detonator applies a debuff which causes your next rail shot to hit 10 - 20% harder.

 

 

class fixed

 

kthxbye.

 

ps. One last thing that bugs me is shoulder cannon. Shoulder cannon should load ALL it's missiles instantly so that players can actually burst with it every 1.5 minutes. I would also like to see it given some armor pen or perhaps allow it to do more damage to targets below 30%. This way players would save it as an execute.

 

 

i like your ideas

[PresentlyKyle]

Bump

I've had a PT dps since before launch, not only is it my main it's my only max level toon. I just don't get any enjoyment out of multiple toons, it's not how I personally want to play the game.

I didn't come to argue really, but I'm in favor of rolling back the Pyro PT. At the least I think it needs to be addressed

[Brunner_Venda]

Revert the TD nerf and remake Energy Rebounder into a passive ability for all Powertechs. This would buff Shieldtech to put it on par with Jugg tanks, it would allow them to remove the 2 point Energy Rebounder talent and replace it with something actually helpful to AP, such as a 2 point talent which lowers the CD on Immolate by 2.5/5 seconds and increases its damage by 5/10%. And it would also fix Pyrotech.

 

2 simple moves. Nothing elaborate or something that would screw with game mechanics. PT problems solved. Your move, BW.

 

This.

 

It might take PT tanks over the top though. They'll always have a shield or redoubt proc up, AND you need to crit past their shields.

 

1. I would rather see then fix automated defenses for pyro and make it useful. Give it a periodic heal or something like the redoubt proc.

 

For AP, they need to fix the prototype loader skill. It does nothing if you take it before 55. Why not reduce the CD on rail shot by 2.5/5.0?

[quirez]

remake Energy Rebounder into a passive ability for all Powertechs.

 

myyyy, oh my... Can i please have it?

 

Yeh, but seriosly the skill is too powerful to be in a tank tree.

[Marb]

OP touched on the main points, but here's my spin on it anyway:

 

The Hybrid Problem

This has a lot to do with thermal detonator being lackluster, but the issue is also compounded by the fact that low hanging fruit provides obvious advantages for pyros (prototype cylinders specifically and uniquely buffs CCG). Getting all the direct passive improvements from the lower trees requires sacrificing the top tiers of the pyro tree. This issue is not evident in AP, as that spec can acquire all the low hanging fruit that directly buffs their tree without sacrificing their top tier skills. The top tier of pyro needs be made so enticing and essential that players will be willing to sacrifice some of the low hanging fruit.

 

Incendiary Missile

This ability needs a lower heat cost as target switching is absolutely crippling to heat management. For such a mundane damage and dot effect, it is completely out of wack with its heat cost. It also has no synergy with the tree, not even to enable railshot (CGC).

 

Thermal Detonator

If a pyro could acquire all the low hanging fruit, it may be enough to encourage them to get Thermal Detonator in its current state. Its still a monumentally underwhelming capstone skill, and like incendiary missile, has absolutely no synergy with the tree. TD in its current form still wouldn't do anything to discourage hybrids from using the pyro tree for nothing but Prototype Particle Accelerator. I feel the better option would be to go back to the drawing board with this ability and tie it into the spec in a way that ensures the pyro playstyle would be compromised without it, or make it so amazing that no sane person would spec up to PPA and not get TD.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Marb

[Sardonyyx]

I made a post about all aspects of the powertech, its not prefect, but there's some good stuff in there that I think would be nice changes.

[Aetrus]

myyyy, oh my... Can i please have it?

 

Yeh, but seriosly the skill is too powerful to be in a tank tree.

 

Maybe they could give some small nerfs to Shieldtech in order to do it. What would you give up as a PT tank in order to get Energy Rebounder with the Redoubt proc? Haha.

[Ottoattack]

I defiantly support dropping incendiary missile cost from 22 to 16. Currently it's a drain on heat. I would also like its duration to be shortened from 18 to 15 while the dot damage stays the same (more damage per sec).

[wetslampigduex]

If you're having trouble using IM in your rotation you're doing something wrong. PvP its almost a waste and should only be used on tanks or healers that don't know how to cleanse, if the do cleanse simply don't use it. Pve no issue what so ever. Practice the rotation, anymore then 25 heat L2rapid shot.

 

I do agree they need a very slight DMG increase, going from near the top of the parser to the lower half is no fun.

[Melon_Lord]

Long time Pyro PT here and I like some of the ideas you have especially Rail Shot Exploding for AoE, that would be pretty awesome.

 

Something else I wish PT had was a gap closer, even something small like 15m. I recently had an idea of instead of Shoulder Cannon we had a short jump like Rage tree Obliterate that immobilizes for 1 second and applies a 4th DoT that does similar damage to Electro Net without added stacks or slow. Just a 9 second good damage DoT for 8 heat like our Bounty Hunter counter parts.

 

Also In regards to Degauss I could see it switching places with Rapid Venting and changing it with an effect something like *Increase the damage of CGC by 50% / 100% to targets affected by IM or TD* that way it encourages a full tree since Bioware doesn't approve of hybrids and CGC becomes as strong as it should be.

 

As far as TD is concerned I liked the idea of it making Rail Shot hit 20% harder I think it was

[ZeroPlus]

Interesting to see others in this thread suggesting that "Automated Defenses" should have periodic healing attached to it.

 

I posted something similar here.

 

I'll copy&paste the post here for convenience:

=========================================================

I don't think we will ever get our burst back. Which is a pity.

 

I've said it before (here and on the Vanguard forum), and I'll say it again. What we need now is better survivability.

 

Assault/Pyro are now about "sustained damage" and we do great with that. But Assault/Pyro doesn't live long enough for the sustained damage to actually kill anything in PvP. Allowing us to live longer with a mechanic that is already in the game for the other DoT based melee specs (Watchman Sentinels/Annihilation Marauders and Balance Shadows/Madness Assassins) in the game would be great.

 

I would suggest adding something like:

"Causes critical hits from periodic damage abilities to restore [0.5 / 1]% of your total health."

to "Automated Defenses"/"Adrenaline Fueled" in the Pyro/Assault tree.

 

It would be perfect. The talent is a 2 point talent. It already has to do with our only "selfhealing" ability. It is so high up in the tree that it would be excluded from hybrid builds. It would make going up the tree worth it. It would make having all 3 DoTs active worth it.

 

It wouldn't be overpowered. We are talking about ~300 healing (when you have ~30000HP) when a DoT crits.

 

I think having something like this for Assault/Pyro would go a long way to making us viable in PvP again. =========================================================

 

Again, interesting to see that others feel the same .

[Brunner_Venda]

Something needs to be done about automated defenses.

 

1. It's a defensive CD that doesn't actually help with defense. Something we are sorely lacking.

 

2. They stole rebounder from the pyro tree, something we needed the most. Automated defenses doesn't come close to making up for the loss. Kolto overload sucks the way it is, it basically only works when we're in the easy-execute range for health, and it KEEPS you there.

 

3. It's yet another underwhelming top tier ability that isn't worth the skill points. We survive longer and do more damage by taking low level abilities from other trees. That's terrible, because it means our spec is broken. You don't see AP dropping immolate to take integrated cardio package do you?

 

Please fix.

[mfourcustom]

Its a shame that all the idea's of the OP are good and could really bring life back in to the class but it'll never be done or even considered by the devs. right now there sitting at their round table saying things like "how can we buff smash spec more?" or "whats the next class we can kill?" and less we forget "hey in 2.3 lets give snipers and slingers a one shot kill move on a 15 second cd!!!"

 

These devs

[Brunner_Venda]

The answer is simple. We need to take this to the San Diego Cantina event.

 

They can still choose to ignore it, but at least they'll HEAR it out.

[mfourcustom]

The answer is simple. We need to take this to the San Diego Cantina event.

 

They can still choose to ignore it, but at least they'll HEAR it out.

 

They'll just have all vg/pt players removed from the building to make room for more smasher and sniper players! these ****** bias devs. :cool::cool::cool: