is sidious really the strongest sith

[Aurbere]

Except Vitiate not being able to ''even begin'' pose some challenge is not a fact.It's an overinflated opinion.

 

The canon seems to disagree. I am merely a messenger. You can accept Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord, or you can continue to live in your own fantasy world.

 

You accuse me of stating an overinflated opinion, but you continue to disregard post-ROTJ EU simply because you think it is trash. Is there no reasoning with you?

[Aurbere]

The way I see it, if it comes down to people disputing canon. The debates just not worth it. Which makes me wonder why I got involved in the first place...

 

I can't tell you why you joined, but I can tell you why I joined. This topic has been going on for a while (mainly because Vitiate did the whole Nathema thing), so I join in to correct people. That's why I join in, but it is becoming very clear that this debate will not be going anywhere.

[Aurbere]

And by rejecting a George Lucas-approved novel on that basis that it is 'trash' you have proven yourself to be one of those people.

 

The Dark Empire series is a comic book series.

[Jandi]

I can tell you why both of you joined and kept going. Being right on the internet is AWESOME. Don't even try to deny it. Edited June 15, 2013 by Jandi

[Wolfninjajedi]

I can tell you why both of you joined and kept going. Being right on the internet is AWESOME. Don't even try to deny it.

 

Partly will admit, but most of the time when I join I usually do it so that false information isn't spread around. Though again...its been this way for quite some time now, I just don't see why its being argued.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I can tell you why both of you joined and kept going. Being right on the internet is AWESOME. Don't even try to deny it.

You got me. You got all of us.

[Kaedusz]

The canon seems to disagree.

 

You accuse me of stating an overinflated opinion, but you continue to disregard post-ROTJ EU simply because you think it is trash

 

The last exchange was if Vitiate can ''even begin'' to pose a challenge, just in case Sidious really was the most powerful.About which can be said the stuff i wrote on the last page.

 

I disregard it,not only because it is trash for all kind of reasons in all kinds of areas,which is more than enough in the first place.Post episode 6 EU is about an old Star Wars concept and there are many contradictions and controversy ,factology being one of them.Not to mention that because a new movie is coming out,all this stuff is swiped clean,to be replaced with the events in that movie and its consequences.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

I can tell you why both of you joined and kept going. Being right on the internet is AWESOME. Don't even try to deny it.

 

Yeah, I do like to be right.

[Aurbere]

The last exchange was if Vitiate can ''even begin'' to pose a challenge, just in case Sidious really was the most powerful.About which can be said the stuff i wrote on the last page.

 

I disregard it,not only because it is trash for all kind of reasons in all kinds of areas,which is more than enough in the first place.Post episode 6 EU is about an old Star Wars concept and there are many contradictions and controversy ,factology being one of them.Not to mention that because a new movie is coming out,all this stuff is swiped clean,to be replaced with the events in that movie and its consequences.

 

You put a great deal of faith in the wiping of the EU. What happens if the writers just do some retcons and wrap the rest of the EU around it? What happens if the events of the movies have no impact on early post-ROTJ EU? What if nothing happens to Dark Empire?

[Wolfninjajedi]

You put a great deal of faith in the wiping of the EU. What happens if the writers just do some retcons and wrap the rest of the EU around it? What happens if the events of the movies have no impact on early post-ROTJ EU? What if nothing happens to Dark Empire?

 

Even if the post-ROTJ EU is retconned, which...seems unlikely. Because you don't just dump all that work(the characters, the story, the tech, etc, etc) down the drain that has been around for quite some time....even if it is. You still have Sidious as being the most powerful via other sources and also showing said power.

 

In fact, when the Prequels came out. There was a little bit of controversy regarding Dark Empire, yet its still canon and actually fixed it a little to make sense so as to fall in line instead of just outright destroying the author's work.

 

Who knows, maybe Disney will actually keep the canon system and just make adjustments as you said Aurbere.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Even if the post-ROTJ EU is retconned, which...seems unlikely. Because you don't just dump all that work(the characters, the story, the tech, etc, etc) down the drain that has been around for quite some time....even if it is. You still have Sidious as being the most powerful via other sources and also showing said power.

 

In fact, when the Prequels came out. There was a little bit of controversy regarding Dark Empire, yet its still canon and actually fixed it a little to make sense so as to fall in line instead of just outright destroying the author's work.

 

Who knows, maybe Disney will actually keep the canon system and just make adjustments as you said Aurbere.

 

Well, Dark Empire is what people whine about, so what were to happen if Dark Empire did not get retconned? More whining, I suppose.

 

I would prefer a workaround.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well, Dark Empire is what people whine about, so what were to happen if Dark Empire did not get retconned? More whining, I suppose.

 

I would prefer a workaround.

 

People whine about anything they don't like, I personally don't have any problems with Dark Empire(but then that maybe because by comparison in comics, it seems rather normal). If I don't like something, I just move on....while I may not like something i'll still accept it anyway cause there isn't any use in whining about it. Though...I hardly have any problems with anything, just a few things but I still accept them.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Jandi]

People whine about anything they don't like, I personally don't have any problems with Dark Empire(but then that maybe because by comparison in comics, it seems rather normal). If I don't like something, I just move on....while I may not like something i'll still accept it anyway cause there isn't any use in whining about it. Though...I hardly have any problems with anything, just a few things but I still accept them.

 

The thing is that you can't just pick and choose which EU you like and then debate things based on what *you* think is canon or not. I've made my disdain for the EU clear in other threads because the writing is so poor and the plots are poorly thought out but that doesn't mean I'm going to enter a thread discussing something and declare someone is wrong because *I* don't like certain things.

 

When it comes to a body of work you either reject it as a whole or you accept it, regardless of how you personally feel about individual parts of it. And no, scientific papers and research isn't the same because you can have something factual and then make the wrong theory based on it which does not negate the original fact. Fiction is different as it's all subjective and open to interpretation, facts are not or they cease to be facts. 1 + 1 either is or isn't 2, it's not maybe 2.

 

Over the many years I've been here, since 08 I think, the most common thing I see in the SW section is a SUBJECTIVE point of view presented as an objective fact, then use that as proof to say someone else is wrong. This thread is no exception. It's the same exact stupid cognitive dissonance you hear from hard core religious people who on one hand say "It says so in the bible" and use that as an ultimate argument then go on to say something else in the bible is "open to interpretation" and rejects plain statements they don't agree with.

 

Lucas says Uncle Palpy is the strongest baddie of them all, the end. Any discussion beyond that is fan fiction and nothing more. You can't argue with fan fiction because.... well... it's fan fiction and doesn't mean anything to the official fictional universe of Star Wars. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, it just has no bearing on canon and thus is irrelevant.

 

EDIT: Holy batman that became long. Sorry about that.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Jandi

[Wolfninjajedi]

The thing is that you can't just pick and choose which EU you like and then debate things based on what *you* think is canon or not. I've made my disdain for the EU clear in other threads because the writing is so poor and the plots are poorly thought out but that doesn't mean I'm going to enter a thread discussing something and declare someone is wrong because *I* don't like certain things.

 

When it comes to a body of work you either reject it as a whole or you accept it, regardless of how you personally feel about individual parts of it. And no, scientific papers and research isn't the same because you can have something factual and then make the wrong theory based on it which does not negate the original fact. Fiction is different as it's all subjective and open to interpretation, facts are not or they cease to be facts. 1 + 1 either is or isn't 2, it's not maybe 2.

 

Over the many years I've been here, since 08 I think, the most common thing I see in the SW section is a SUBJECTIVE point of view presented as an objective fact, then use that as proof to say someone else is wrong. This thread is no exception. It's the same exact stupid cognitive dissonance you hear from hard core religious people who on one hand say "It says so in the bible" and use that as an ultimate argument then go on to say something else in the bible is "open to interpretation" and rejects plain statements they don't agree with.

 

Lucas says Uncle Palpy is the strongest baddie of them all, the end. Any discussion beyond that is fan fiction and nothing more. You can't argue with fan fiction because.... well... it's fan fiction and doesn't mean anything to the official fictional universe of Star Wars. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, it just has no bearing on canon and thus is irrelevant.

 

EDIT: Holy batman that became long. Sorry about that.

 

I can't tell...were you agreeing and just expanding on what I put or? Though there is hardly anything subjective about Palps being the strongest sith which is what is going on here, its everywhere from G to C canon and inbetween from the creator to the authors, from the sourcebooks to the novels and comics and so forth.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Jandi]

I can't tell...were you agreeing and just expanding on what I put or? Though there is hardly anything subjective about Palps being the strongest sith, its everywhere from G to C canon and inbetween.

 

Palpy's strength isn't indeed subjective because George Lucas isn't a fictional character, despite what some may think. What he says is a fact when it comes to the universe HE created. Whether someone agrees with it or not is their prerogative, but, that subjective opinion has no bearing on whether or not Palpy actually is the strongest or not, is what I'm saying.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Palpy's strength isn't indeed subjective because George Lucas isn't a fictional character, despite what some may think. What he says is a fact when it comes to the universe HE created. Whether someone agrees with it or not is their prerogative, but, that subjective opinion has no bearing on whether or not Palpy actually is the strongest or not, is what I'm saying.

 

Ahh ok I got ya.

[Aurbere]

People whine about anything they don't like, I personally don't have any problems with Dark Empire(but then that maybe because by comparison in comics, it seems rather normal). If I don't like something, I just move on....while I may not like something i'll still accept it anyway cause there isn't any use in whining about it. Though...I hardly have any problems with anything, just a few things but I still accept them.

 

/agree is all I can say

[Euphrosyne]

Well, Dark Empire is what people whine about, so what were to happen if Dark Empire did not get retconned? More whining, I suppose.

 

I would prefer a workaround.

I personally don't much like Dark Empire, but I recognize that it's canonical, just like the Lusankya being buried underneath the Coruscant cityscape, Jaxxon, Reist, and Waru.

[Kaedusz]

The thing about Palpatine that many people miss is that you can't actually come to the conclusion that he is the most powerful by looking at him in products that have him as a character,unless you are in love with him.

You must read about how he is the most powerful sith that ever lived in third party works,guides,chronologies and canon statements.

 

so what were to happen if Dark Empire did not get retconned? More whining, I suppose.

 

Disregarding and disrespecting for valid reasons is not whining.I would not even pay attention and mention even 1 time anything about post episode 6 EU,if you people don't bring it up like some mad religious crowd screaming geocentrism is canonical.

 

If everything after epide 6 gets swiped clean ,the SW franchise will be better and it will lose most of its bogus elements.Don't worry you can still have Palpatine as most powerful sith,no need to turn your precious little retro world upside down.Except this time the claim would actually have any meaning,because if it is supported by current post ep6 EU,it loses all validity,unless ofc you are old SW fanboy,willing to accept anything as long as it has SW on its cover.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

I personally don't much like Dark Empire, but I recognize that it's canonical, just like the Lusankya being buried underneath the Coruscant cityscape, Jaxxon, Reist, and Waru.

I don't like Dark Empire either, like at all. I mean bringing back Sidious? That just destroys the whole point of the original trilogy. They should have just let him die.

 

And then at that to the fact that they overpower him immensely, I mean being able to conjure each maelstroms of dark side energy, that I can accept... but hyperspace wormholes? That's just silly. My feelings are the same for Vitiate, I mean, dominating the minds of say 100 Sith, that's just about OK. But 8000? Really?

 

Nevertheless I respect the canon system, and realise that if I want to have a reasoned debate about Star Wars I have to accept that these events are canon. I cannot simply reject them on a arbitrary, personal whim. If Kaedusz isn't prepared to accept a standard of 'truth' we simply cannot debate with him. Just as we cannot discuss science with someone who rejects the laws of physics.

[Beniboybling]

You must read about how he is the most powerful sith that ever lived in third party works,guides,chronologies and canon statements.

/facepalm.

[Kaedusz]

 

Nevertheless I respect the canon system, and realise that if I want to have a reasoned debate about Star Wars I have to accept that these events are canon. I cannot simply reject them on a arbitrary, personal whim.

 

You can't reject them in different contexts.You *can* reject it in a forum in which you state *your opinion*.That's the whole point.If i am to just come here and say ''G-canon says it is so,so it is so,the end''.whats the point to even talk about this stuff in the first place.It's your prerogative to not respect EU after ep6 ,if you think its bad.

 

If i do a Star Wars quiz and there is a question,who is most powerful sith,i will write Sidious.But i will do it because it is expected of me and because some SW big shot,decided to make him most powerful.Not because he convinced me he is most powerful in a SW game,movie,comic or book i saw him in.

[Beniboybling]

You can't reject them in different contexts.You *can* reject it in a forum in which you state *your opinion*.That's the whole point.If i am to just come here and say ''G-canon says it is so,so it is so,the end''.whats the point to even talk about this stuff in the first place.It's your prerogative to not respect EU after ep6 ,if you think its bad.

If its just 'your opinion' then cease attempting to impose it on other people. We don't agree with you, because we accept post-ROTJ for what it is. If this is just a battle of subjective opinions then no debate can be had. As I could just as easily reject your argument on the basis that Vitiate's feats in the Revan novel are silly. In fact, the Revan novel was kinda trash too so I guess that's my prerogative, no?

 

And so we are at an impasse, with neither party being able to dispute the others argument because we have no objective basis by which to do so. Any possibility of discussion or debate collapses.

 

But your right, there is no point to this discussion. The Earth is round, gravity exists, G-Canon is law in the Star Wars universe. Disney may retcon it, but they haven't yet, so it still stands.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

...

 

Yep the novel is bad,the author destroyed my favorite jedi,but that is a different topic.

 

* * *

If it is not a ''battle''(w/e) of subjective opinions ,then what should it be then? if we are to agree by default and accept canon statements for our own opinion then whats the point in these threads in the first place?

Edited June 16, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

Yep the novel is bad,the author destroyed my favorite jedi,but that is a different topic.

 

* * *

If it is not a ''battle''(w/e) of subjective opinions ,then what should it be then? if we are agree by default and accept canon statements for our own opinion then whats the point in these threads in the first place?

There isn't any. Unless for a moment we put G-Canon aside and aside and decide who is more powerful based on feats. That's usually what I attempt to do. But then again, it would seem we can't do that either because your not even willing to accept those feats.

 

Do you see? I'm quite happy to put G-Canon aside, but when we do away with all objectivity nothing has any meaning at all and any form of discussion and debate becomes utterly pointless.