is sidious really the strongest sith

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yes, but it is a thing of knowledge, not of power. This is evident from the different ways it has been achieved:

 

Vitiate achieved it from performing large and complex rituals.

 

Plagueis achieved it my manipulating midichlorians.

 

Sidious achieved it by creating clones and transferring his essence.

 

But what feats are really being displayed here? An aptitude with Sith Magic? A knowledge of midichlorians? A clever application of the Force? Achieving immortality itself is not a testament to someones power but there intelligence, how they went about achieving it? Perhaps some feats can be garnered here. But not in the achievement itself.

 

And I wouldn't say Kun achieved immortality, he just became a Force ghost and well ya... that's kinda been done before, like a lot. He just happened to come across some putty to play with.

 

Perhaps there are different ways of going about to said immortality. Different paths, just leading to the same thing...so perhaps its all 3 being displayed from each source.

[XantosCledwin]

Yes, but it is a thing of knowledge, not of power. This is evident from the different ways it has been achieved:

 

Vitiate achieved it from performing large and complex rituals.

 

Plagueis achieved it my manipulating midichlorians.

 

Sidious achieved it by creating clones and transferring his essence.

 

But what feats are really being displayed here? An aptitude with Sith Magic? A knowledge of midichlorians? A clever application of the Force? Achieving immortality itself is not a testament to someones power but there intelligence, how they went about achieving it? Perhaps some feats can be garnered here. But not in the achievement itself.

 

And I wouldn't say Kun achieved immortality, he just became a Force ghost and well ya... that's kinda been done before, like a lot. He just happened to come across some putty to play with.

 

Manipulating Midichlorians and performing certain Sith Rituals probably basically boils down to the same thing in the grand scheme of things. Afterall the Midichlorians were George Lucas' attempt to bring the Force into the world of Science (a stupid attempt, but they were his attempt all the same).

[Eugee]

Errm. The creation of The Rule of Two is not a mystery. There's a whole trilogy dedicated to it. Darth Bane created the Rule of Two, after facilitating the destruction of his fellow Sith 1000 BBY. There's nothing to speculate there: for 1000 years, the Sith lived in secrecy under the rule, until this process created a Sith powerful enough to destroy the Jedi--Sidious.

[Aurbere]

Too much stock is put on Vitiate's ability to rule an Empire of Force-sensitives. For one thing Nyriss attests to the fact that Vitiate had retreated from the Empire to go about his studies, leaving the Dark Council in charge. Plus he's paranoid and did everything in his power to make sure no one betrayed him.

 

Plus I really don't see how ruling an Empire longer than someone makes them the more powerful. By this logic King Adas and Marka Ragnos would be superior to Sidious.

[Beniboybling]

Actually, if anything Sidious practically invented this so called Rule of Two (though it had probably been around for 1 or 2 generations of Sith prior to him). Afterall, the word "SITH" refers to a SPECIES, not to a Religion. It would be quite stupid to claim that there were only two members of the Species of the Sith at any given time. You cannot maintain a species with only two members. Thus the Rule of Two was invented after the Sith became a Religion, not while it was a Race.

 

Additionally, the Sith only became a Religion after Humans exiled from the Republic first encountered the Sith species. These humans were actually former members of the Jedi Order. Bringing with them, the concept of "Master and Padawan" training methods. They incorporated these training methods into their religion that they named after the Sith Species, though they renamed the training method as "Master and Apprentice" instead. this is where the origin of the "Rule of Two" likely comes from... the Jedi use it too, it is not limited to the Sith. So unless we are to say that there can only be TWO JEDI at any given time, then there by proxy cannot only be two Sith at any given time. Unless the Dark Lord of the Sith (read: Emperor) decree's that no other Sith besides himself and his apprentice can exist.

 

Also, if we are going to say that Palpatine is the greatest Sith Lord EVER. Then we must consider ALL of the Dark Lords of the Sith, not just Palpatine.

 

Jen'ari Xendor (died circa 24,500 BBY)

Jen'ari Tulak Hord (Born before 5,500 BBY)

Jen'ari Marka Ragnos (Died 5,000 BBY)

Jen'ari Naga Sadow (died circa 4,400 BBY)

Jen'ari Exar Kun (died 3,996 BBY, Spirit died 11 ABY)

Jen'ari Ajunta Pall (Died 3,956 BBY after his spirit was released)

Jen'ari Vitiate (born 5,113 BBY, assumed dead circa 3,641 BBY)

(Between Vitiate and Palpatine there is a huge gap of time which is not accounted for, we do not know when Vitiate's rule ended exactly, but we know that there were Sith Lords between Vitiate and Palpatine, whether those Sith Lords ever claimed the title of "Jen'ari" or "Dark Lord of the Sith" which is not synonymous with the lesser title of "Darth" is unknown).

Jen'ari Sidious (Born 82 BBY, died (first time) 4 ABY)

 

Ignroing all these other Dark Lords of the Sith when discussing whether Sidious is in fact the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, is doing the Sith throughout history a great injustice. Additionally the Rule of Two as it was understood by Yoda was not invented until the time of Darth Bane in 1,026 BBY which is centuries after Star Wars the Old Republic takes place. And yet at the same time it is Centuries before Sidious' time. So basically, because no Sith for basically 1,000 years has had the experience of ruling over hundreds of other Sith at the same time, Palpatine would have had a very hard time controlling an army of actual fully trained Sith Warriors.

 

EDIT: Dooku was born in 102 BBY. He was freaking older than Palpatine himself. Darth Maul was born in 54 BBY. So yes, they did exist simultaneously. The question is whether Dooku was being groomed as a Dark Side Adept during the events of the Phantom Menace or not. And given how powerful Dooku was in the Dark Side, I find it wholly illogical to assume that he wasn't.

Are you not familiar with the Rule of Two? Perhaps you should give this page a read because some of the stuff your saying just makes no sense to me. To give a brief summary:

 

"Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

 

The Rule of Two was instituted by Darth Bane, once a student at Kaan's Sith academy, in response to what he viewed as inevitable, self-destructive infighting within the Sith Order. The Rule of Two states that there would be only two Sith at one time, a Master and an Apprentice, guaranteeing that when the Apprentice becomes powerful enough in the ways of the Dark Side to take the title of Master, only then would they be worthy of the title. This transfer of power would only take place when the Apprentice takes their Master's life and finds a worthy student to repeat the cycle. Both Master and Apprentice were considered to be Sith Lords.

 

The practice survived with varying levels of enforcement for a thousand years until the murder of Darth Tenebrous at the hands of his apprentice in 67 BBY—Darth Plagueis held the doctrine in contempt, and intended to live forever together with his own apprentice, Darth Sidious. However, Sidious murdered him according to the precepts of the Rule of Two.

 

Parts of this tradition existed in some ways in every incarnation of the Sith, but only in some ways, never in all. I can't stress enough that this rule isn't simply 'master and apprentice' its much more than that. The rules of ascension is the most integral part, not the positions of master and apprentice which are merely mediums by which this can take place. In no universe can this be seen as adopted by the Jedi, the mechanics may be similar but the philosophy is completely different.

 

What I think your saying is that technically the Rule of Two existed long before Sidious and therefore we should take those Sith into account. This is true, but we can still look at the Rule of Two - Bane to Sidious - as a unit. I'd like to mention here that I'm not sure what your talking about when you say Sidious invented the Rule of Two. When it was invented by Bane 1000 years prior, Sidious was merely following tradition. In fact, he broke the Rule of Two by not taking an apprentice. Instead creating what he dubbed the 'Rule of One'. This was because the Rule of Two had served its purpose, they had achieved the Grand Plan and Sidious believe himself to be the pinnacle of dark side power, the greatest Sith to ever live.

 

I'm also confused as to why when discussing the greatest Sith Lord of all time we would only consider one individual... surely logic dictates that we consider all of them? Not sure what your on about there I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that point.

 

And another thing, the word 'Sith' stopped meaning 'species' as soon as the exiled Jedi touched down on Korriban and enslaved the Sith species, adopting the name for themselves. Sith then became equivocal, both referring to the species and the religion. But I really have no idea what your point is here.

 

And finally, yes Dooku was alive at the same time as Maul but he was not Sith. May I note here that we have extensive knowledge of Dooku's life so there is no need to speculate. Dooku became Darth Tyranus not long after Darth Maul's death. So they did not exist as Sith at the same time. Nonetheless he had been considering Dooku as he apprentice for some time and gaining his favor under the guise of Palpatine. But no training in the dark side took place. So no, he wasn't. Let's also remember that prior to that Dooku was a powerful Jedi, so he needed little tutelage in the Force.

 

But, and I'm just going to make this clear, I have no real idea what your talking about in the first few paragraphs. I'm just picking up on various inconsistencies that seem apparent to me. But without knowing what your point is these comments may have no real value. I think your also making the assumption that when I say 'pinnacle of the Rule of Two' I am ignoring every other Sith outside of it, but of course I am not.

 

Anyway I think I'm going to skip the history lesson. I don't believe there were any Sith after Vitiate until Darth Ruin who effectively recreated the Sith Order. And if they were, I doubt any of them were as powerful as Sidious or some mention would have been made of them. Apart from that, I'd rank Sidious higher than any other Sith that exists in canon to date.

 

P.S. Again we are making a leap in logic by saying that because Sidious does not have experience of something, he cannot handle it. I think that's somewhat unfair as Vitiate would fail miserably if forces to attempt to execute the Grand Plan and follow the Rule of Two.

[Maelael]

Great discussion.

 

No. Vader. Vader had more raw power, even if he didn't accomplish as much with it. You could also say Luke Skywalker during his dark side issues, although he wasn't technically "Sith" (although you could say the same about Vader, heh.)

 

With Palpatine, If you read the later books, you find out he outstrips every past Sith Lord/Emperor in terms of raw power and accomplishment. He was able to stretch his consciousness across the galaxy and influence battles, still technically lives on in spirit and clones, had a ton of magic, yadda yadda. Really they kinda went too far with him in the novels.

 

It should be mentioned that the only Sith known to have found oneness with the force is Malgus. That can be said as outdoing the rest of the Sith in force regards.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Great discussion.

 

No. Vader. Vader had more raw power, even if he didn't accomplish as much with it. You could also say Luke Skywalker during his dark side issues, although he wasn't technically "Sith" (although you could say the same about Vader, heh.)

 

With Palpatine, If you read the later books, you find out he outstrips every past Sith Lord/Emperor in terms of raw power and accomplishment. He was able to stretch his consciousness across the galaxy and influence battles, still technically lives on in spirit and clones, had a ton of magic, yadda yadda. Really they kinda went too far with him in the novels.

 

It should be mentioned that the only Sith known to have found oneness with the force is Malgus. That can be said as outdoing the rest of the Sith in force regards.

 

Vader was a Sith, he was anointed as one by Darth Sidious. I still don't see how they went too far, there has to be a bar somewhere in showing how powerful someone can be and Sidious/Luke set the bar.

 

When did Malgus achieve Oneness with The Force? Even then that is just a temp amp.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Vader was a Sith, he was anointed as one by Darth Sidious. I still don't see how they went too far, there has to be a bar somewhere in showing how powerful someone can be and Sidious/Luke set the bar.

 

When did Malgus achieve Oneness with The Force? Even then that is just a temp amp.

After emerging from a tonne of rubble and wreckage and still managing to kill two Jedi.

 

At least that's when I believe it happened.

 

Either way, Malgus is a severely underestimated Sith Lord. He could also achieve Force maelstrom, which was a stepping stone to Force storm. Not on the level of Sidious but I'd say he gets into the top ten. Easily the second most powerful Sith Lord in the Sith Empire.

[Wolfninjajedi]

After emerging from a tonne of rubble and wreckage and still managing to kill two Jedi.

 

At least that's when I believe it happened.

 

Either way, Malgus is a severely underestimated Sith Lord. He could also achieve Force maelstrom, which was a stepping stone to Force storm. Not on the level of Sidious but I'd say he gets into the top ten. Easily the second most powerful Sith Lord in the Sith Empire.

 

That seems more like a feat of durability and will then Oneness..

[Aurbere]

Malgus achieves Oneness in Deceived after killing Eleena Daru. He sacrificed what he loved because he loved her, making his bond to the Dark Side so great that he felt that he had achieved a state of Oneness with the Dark Side.

 

Interestingly, Malgus is one of Sidious' predecessors that he holds in high regard because of his ability to form a Force Maelstrom.

[Maelael]

That seems more like a feat of durability and will then Oneness..

 

Naw its literally described as achieving temporary oneness. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Oneness

 

And what I meant by going too far, is if you read the novels in it's "Somewhat Succession" they do the same with the Emperor as they do with Luke, and just keep adding on more crazy stuff they're capable of. It's like how the fish gets bigger in each big fish story, cause you have to outdo the guy who told the story before you. It's typical, but unnecessary and often thought of as bad writing/editing/storytelling. Check out the Rifts RPG series to see its effects at its worst.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Malgus achieves Oneness in Deceived after killing Eleena Daru. He sacrificed what he loved because he loved her, making his bond to the Dark Side so great that he felt that he had achieved a state of Oneness with the Dark Side.

 

Interestingly, Malgus is one of Sidious' predecessors that he holds in high regard because of his ability to form a Force Maelstrom.

 

That he felt....so he didn't actually achieve it then? He just felt that he did?

 

Edit: Wait ok I see...

 

But anyway were kinda derailing here...meh actually the question has been answered so I suppose its ok.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Here is the passage from Deceived when Malgus attains Oneness:

 

Her eyes fluttered open, focused. She smiled. "Veradun, you are my rescuer."

 

"Yes," he said.

 

"Where is the woman?" Eleena asked. "The Jedi?"

 

"She is gone. She will never hurt you again."

 

She leaned her head back into his arm, closed her eyes, and sighed contentedly. "I knew you loved me."

 

"I do," he acknowledged, and her smile widened. He felt tears forming in his eyes, his weakness made manifest.

 

She opened her eyes, saw the tears, reached up an arm to put a hand on his cheek. "What is wrong, my love?"

 

"That I love you is what is wrong, Eleena."

 

"Veradun-"

 

He steeled himself, stood, ignited his lightsaber, and drove it through her heart.

 

Her eyes widened, never left his face, pierced him. Her mouthed opened in a surpirsed gasp. She seemed as if she wanted to say something, but no sound emerged from her mouth.

 

And then it was over and she was gone.

He deactivated his blade.

He could no longer afford a conscience, or a weakness, not if he was to do what must be done. He could serve only one master.

He stood over her body until his tears dried.

He resolved that he'd never shed another. He'd had to destroy what he loved. And he knew that he would have to again. First the Jedi, then...

- Deceived, Page 288-289

 

Later...

 

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

 

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if her were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

- Deceived, Page 291

 

So, yeah. It should also be noted that one paragraph after the first quote we learn about Malgus' role in the Ilum flashpoints.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

Here is the passage from Deceived when Malgus attains Oneness:

 

- Deceived, Page 288-289

 

Later...

 

 

 

So, yeah. It should also be noted that one paragraph after the first quote we learn about Malgus' role in the Ilum flashpoints.

 

Ya, ya I got it. Anyway I think we can let this thread die now.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[XantosCledwin]

...Stuff about the Rule of Two...

 

Perhaps you should read the page detailing Darth Bane. Because the quote you listed says that Darth Bane was the one who first instituted the Rule of Two. As such the Rule of Two could not have existed prior to his inventing it, except in the form of the traditional "Master & Apprentice" Set up used in most Guilds known in the Medieval Period of Europe and which was borrowed by George Lucas when he designed the Sith and Jedi Orders.

 

It should be noted that the Guild System from Medieval Europe usually entailed a Master who was in charge of SEVERAL Apprentices simultaneously. There was no concept of a Single Master in charge of a Single Apprentice. Thus the Rule of Two as instituted by Darth Bane is a divergence from traditional systems. In fact Sidious is master of Doku, Maul, and Vader of the course of his lifetime. Doku is the master of Asajj Ventress and one of Maul's brothers. It should be noted that Palpatine had wanted to take Luke as his apprentice while he still had Vader as his apprentice. Thereby negating the Rule of Two.

 

That said, the Rule of Two was first instituted sometime during Bane's life, which means it was instituted sometime after 1,026 Before Battle of Yevon. Because that is the year that Darth Bane was born. Our game, Star Wars the Old Republic, takes place in the year circa 3,650 (give or take a decade or so). So this game takes place at least a millenia before Bane was even born. So the rule of two does not apply to the Sith of this time period. Which means that Vitiate had to be significantly more powerful than Palpatine, because he was Master to a significantly higher number of apprentices (every Sith under his command would qualify as his apprentice).

 

 

And incase you missed it, the rules of ascension that you are citing, have existed almost as long as the Sith. Malgus killed his Master. The Sith Warrior kills his Master in the storyline. The Sith Inquisitor basically has the Dashade absorb his Master, and goes on to plot the death of his next master (I haven't gotten past that part on the Sith Inquisitor yet). Point is the laws of ascension exist even prior to our game starting as evidenced by Malgus.

 

 

EDIT: I should have edited the part of Palpatine inventing the Rule of Two out when I found out Bane had invented it... oopsies.

Edited June 14, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Jandi]

Considering that Palpy had no intention of continuing the tradition and instead, just keep himself alive while replacing the apprentice, he pretty much ended the Rule of Two.

 

And with the way the Bane trilogy ended... who knows if Bane really ever died in the first place, making his own rule simply a ruse, a deception to keep the Apprentice growing in power until the right time. It's entirely possible that Bane realized no one would ever surpass him, which is why he went after the ritual in the first place.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Jandi

[BrianDavion]

People state that Sidious is the strongest sith because many sources, George Lucas included said he was. I however have come to the realization that the majority of the statements saying Sidious was the strongest were written before Vitiate as a character even existed. Does this mean that Vitiate has the potential to usurp Palpatine's position as the strongest sith ever.

 

 

if George Lucas himself states Sidious is the most powerful sith and vitate appers to out doe him, honestly? that's poor writeing on BW's part. I was almost dissappointed to learn the true nature of the emperor when the reven novel came out.

 

the big bad of the JK storyline was apparent;y just Nihilas 2.0.

[XantosCledwin]

According to the Timeline of Galactic History on Wookiepedia, Dooku left the Jedi Order in the year 32 BBY, the same year as the Invasion of Naboo by the Trade Federation. This disappearance is exactly when he joins Darth Sidious. It should be noted that Darth Maul is still Darth Sidious' apprentice at this time, and that Darth Maul does not technically die in his encounter with Obi Wan Kenobi and Qui Gon Jinn, at least not according to the Clone Wars TV Series. So technically even though he may not have known it at the time, Darth Sidious had 2 apprentices simultaneously.

 

Additionally, Darth Tyranus (Dooku) was personally training his own apprentice whilst he was still the apprentice of Darth Sidious. So there were in fact FOUR Sith in existence simultaneously for quite a number of years. And lets not forget that Asajj Ventress faked her own death and convinced her sisters to gift Dooku with a new apprentice, meaning that there were effectively FIVE Sith for a while there.

 

if George Lucas himself states Sidious is the most powerful sith and vitate appers to out doe him, honestly? that's poor writeing on BW's part. I was almost dissappointed to learn the true nature of the emperor when the reven novel came out.

 

the big bad of the JK storyline was apparent;y just Nihilas 2.0.

 

And what are we to do if Disney decides to invent a new Sith whom they want to have be more powerful than Sidious? Do they have to not do so because George Lucas opened his big mouth and Word of Godded Sidious into most powerful Sith Status?

Edited June 14, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Aurbere]

This discussion of the Rule of Two is pointless. Until you can prove that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious, then your arguments have zero ground to stand on. As it stands, everything Vitiate has done, Sidious can do (most of it better). The only real thing in Vitiate's favor is that ritual, which doesn't really count because Vitiate required aid to do it.

[XantosCledwin]

This discussion of the Rule of Two is pointless. Until you can prove that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious, then your arguments have zero ground to stand on. As it stands, everything Vitiate has done, Sidious can do (most of it better). The only real thing in Vitiate's favor is that ritual, which doesn't really count because Vitiate required aid to do it.

 

Look, I am not saying Vitiate specifically is more awesomer than Sidious. What I am saying is that arguing that Sidious, who is several thousand years out of touch with a huge chunk of the Sith Teachings (and correct me if I am wrong about this) and who has never visited the Sith Homeworlds of Korriban and Dromand Kaas, is somehow more powerful than his predecessors is a bit childish.

 

Also, arguing that Sidious is the most powerful Sith of ALL TIME, PERIOD. Ignores the possibility that Disney is going to go and re-write Canon to the point of inventing some new Sith who is much more powerful than Sidious himself. I mean if they are writing stories set after the Battle of Endor, then they pretty much have the right to do whatever they god damn well please, even if that means disregarding all the Expanded Universe stuff set after that battle.

[Aurbere]

Look, I am not saying Vitiate specifically is more awesomer than Sidious. What I am saying is that arguing that Sidious, who is several thousand years out of touch with a huge chunk of the Sith Teachings (and correct me if I am wrong about this) and who has never visited the Sith Homeworlds of Korriban and Dromand Kaas, is somehow more powerful than his predecessors is a bit childish.

 

Also, arguing that Sidious is the most powerful Sith of ALL TIME, PERIOD. Ignores the possibility that Disney is going to go and re-write Canon to the point of inventing some new Sith who is much more powerful than Sidious himself. I mean if they are writing stories set after the Battle of Endor, then they pretty much have the right to do whatever they gosh darn well please, even if that means disregarding all the Expanded Universe stuff set after that battle.

 

He has been to Ancient Sith worlds on several occasions.

 

The point is, he is the most powerful Sith Lord. There is no other Sith that exceeds his power. At this time, of course, but, really, you're only speculating that Disney will bring in a more powerful Sith in the new movies. As it stands, Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. End of Story. We can bring this back up after the movies come up.

[XantosCledwin]

He has been to Ancient Sith worlds on several occasions.

 

The point is, he is the most powerful Sith Lord. There is no other Sith that exceeds his power. At this time, of course, but, really, you're only speculating that Disney will bring in a more powerful Sith in the new movies. As it stands, Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. End of Story. We can bring this back up after the movies come up.

 

We are only saying that he is the most powerful Sith Lord because of what George Lucas said in an interview... when was this Interview taken? Was it before the Prequels came out? Was it before Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic came out? Was it Before Force Unleashed? Was it before Star Wars The Old Republic? Each of these released new characters into the fray who could potentially usurp Palpatine as the most powerful Sith. Many of which are actually playable characters. Are you trying to tell me that your Player Characters in Star Wars the Old Republic are somehow inferior to a stage actor just because the guy who invented the franchise says so?

[Aurbere]

Are you trying to tell me that your Player Characters in Star Wars the Old Republic are somehow inferior to a stage actor just because the guy who invented the franchise says so?

 

No, I'm using George Lucas statements, G-canon evidence, and C-canon evidence. Really, the George Lucas statements are only secondary. Sidious' G/C-canon feats and actions clearly define him as the most powerful Sith Lord.

 

You seem to be whining just because George Lucas wanted to establish a "most powerful character."

 

Time to move on.

 

And in regards to post-statement released content. Until George and Chee's statements that say Sidious is the most powerful Sith, Sidious remains in his position.

[XantosCledwin]

No, I'm using George Lucas statements, G-canon evidence, and C-canon evidence. Really, the George Lucas statements are only secondary. Sidious' G/C-canon feats and actions clearly define him as the most powerful Sith Lord.

 

You seem to be whining just because George Lucas wanted to establish a "most powerful character."

 

Time to move on.

 

And in regards to post-statement released content. Until George and Chee's statements that say Sidious is the most powerful Sith, Sidious remains in his position.

 

Okay, using G-Canon only. Which is Absolute Canon (Movies Only). To Define the powers of Darth Sidious, he already is not the strongest Sith in existence. Darth Vader is. I cite the fact that Darth Vader picks Sidious up while Sidious is hurling Force Lightning in an arc in front of him, and promptly tosses him into a ravine. Granted doing this short circuits Vaders life support, but if Sidious were the most powerful Sith in existence, he would have instantly turned off his Force Lightning, pulled out his lightsaber, and lopped off Vaders arms or legs before he could lift Sidious.

 

While accomplishing this act may have redeemed Vader and allowed him to regain status as a Jedi, it does not revoke his status as Sith Lord. Thus Vader, the Chosen One, is in fact the most powerful Sith of all time according to G-Canon.

 

If we expand this to T-Canon (The TV Series). Then Anakin Skywalker becomes even more powerful, because he was able to make both the Daughter and the Son (1,000,000 year old entities composed of Pure Force Energy made conscious) submit to his will. Even if it was only for a short period of time. That feat in and of itself is not something to laugh at. It shows an unbreakable determination.

 

That said, if we are going strictly by raw Force Potential. The Son, is the strongest manifestation of raw Dark Side Energy in existence up until the time of his death. He would easily have beaten Sidious in a matter of seconds. It took 3 Jedi and his Father to defeat him when he was actively fighting. One of these Jedi was Anakin.

 

Now progressing to C-Canon, Luke becomes the most powerful Dark Sider (maybe not Sith) by virtue of the fact that he is the most powerful Force User ever. Period. So during his Dark Side Phase, he was easily more powerful than Sidious.

 

I am going to ignore S and N-Canon because they are questionable Canon.

 

That said, there have been numerous people who could arguably be more powerful by merit alone, if not by raw force potential, than Sidious. Vitiate is stronger by Merit. Exar Kun was able to force at least a handful of Jedi to submit to his mental control. And managed to use one to blow up a few systems (not even Sidious accomplished that).

 

If we are judging Sidious' power based on his Force Potential only. I have yet to see anything he has done which rivals what my Sith Characters can do in Star Wars the Old Republic. And in fact, Malgus in the Opening Trailers for this game, does a hell of a lot more using Force Enhanced Combat techniques than Sidious ever did. I mean Malgus took a Thermal Detonator to the face (so did the Trooper that fired it, which is impressive), as well as a continuous Force Push, and then a Force Avalanche and still survived. You don't see Emperor Palpatine doing anything remotely similar to this. Closest he does is fighting off 3 Jedi, but of course Palpatine has the element of surprise on his side, and cuts 2 of the 3 down before they can really even start defending themselves. Mace Windu fares better but is caught off guard by Anakin's support of Palpatine.

 

The only thing Palpatine apparently has as an advantage over all the other Sith Lords I have ever seen, is that he is a Master of the game of Chess as defined by TV Tropes That in and of itself does not make one powerful in the ways of the Force.

[pan_sObak]

This, mostly the last bit. Vitiate hasn't shown anything that really puts him above Sidious.

 

except he make a living eternal god out of himself by the force

and makes an empire that lasts more then 30 years

 

more to his feats is more on rituals and the like. Sidious outclasses Vitiate by a pretty huge margin even if you take away the statements, the feats are still there.

 

may be if sidious wasn't killed by a boy and a crippled man - he could in a long long long time get the power lord vitiate had

 

sidius did nothing outstanding with his force - only cunning and plotting

Edited June 14, 2013 by pan_sObak