Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Well, if we choose to disregard the fact that he has mastered several forms as he only chooses to use Vaapad, we find his abilities lacking. Mainly because he failed to master Vaapad and his abilities therefore suffered as a result. I mean, unless you incorporate your mastery of each form into a single hybrid form like Vader did, then all that really matters is the mastery of the Form you choose to use. I think this is in part Yoda's weakness as well. Perhaps, but Yoda actually employs all seven forms as well. He's obviously far more offensive, taking advantage of his Ataru mastery, but he is also extremely capable with Soresu. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 George Lucas has said that Yoda is the better duelist.George Lucas is partly the reason why I have grounds for depreciating Yoda's skill. So he can shutup. Plo Koon was also defeated by Padawan Kenobi in a sparring match. I don't think those matches are very good evidence of overall skill. Are we really about to say that Padawan Kenobi could hold his own against Sidious? I can only speak for Plo Koon's match here. Their sparring match was just a test to see how far Obi-Wan had progressed. So take that as you will.Who is this guy?! Your probably right though, in sparring matches when your attempting to test your opponents skill you don't really try very hard. And its kind like 'Ha ha! You disarmed me! Very good my young Padawan.' When in fact he could have he could have ROFLstomped you if he wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Perhaps, but Yoda actually employs all seven forms as well. He's obviously far more offensive, taking advantage of his Ataru mastery, but he is also extremely capable with Soresu.Yeah but in reality, he just attacks attacks attacks and throws strategy to the wind, just to look pretty on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 George Lucas is partly the reason why I have grounds for depreciating Yoda's skill. So he can shutup. Who is this guy?! Your probably right though, in sparring matches when your attempting to test your opponents skill you don't really try very hard. And its kind like 'Ha ha! You disarmed me! Very good my young Padawan.' When in fact he could have he could have ROFLstomped you if he wanted to. Well, we cant really argue with George Lucas. You would have an easier time breaking into Fort Knox. But I do know what you are implying regarding Yoda's abilities, and, like I said, I only partially agree. Yup. We can't really say that Padawan Kenobi is one of the best duelists in the Order because of those spars, but we can say that he eventually becomes one of the best. In my opinion, those duels served as a testament to what he would become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) George Lucas is partly the reason why I have grounds for depreciating Yoda's skill. So he can shutup. [/color] Then take Nick's word when he said "We haven't seen Mace fight, but we know he is only 2nd to Yoda." Now for the life of me I can't find that video. << Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Yeah but in reality, he just attacks attacks attacks and throws strategy to the wind, just to look pretty on screen. You did read Dark Rendezvous, yes? Yoda puts up a staunch defense against Dooku in the middle of the Dark Side nexus that is Vjun. But I feel that his attack and size are his real defenses. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 Then take Nick's word when he said "We haven't seen Mace fight, but we know he is only 2nd to Yoda." Now for the life of me I can't find that video. << Given that Cin Drallig... I mean Nick Gillard created the fighting styles, his word should carry weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Given that Cin Drallig... I mean Nick Gillard created the fighting styles, his word should carry weight. It should given...well he was the one choreographing all the fights for Eps 1-3, and all that and pretty much set the lightsaber combat thing into motion as far as names and such. Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Well, we cant really argue with George Lucas. You would have an easier time breaking into Fort Knox. But I do know what you are implying regarding Yoda's abilities, and, like I said, I only partially agree."If the machine of canon is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of falsehood, then, I say, break the law." ....... You did read Dark Rendezvous, yes? Yoda puts up a staunch defense against Dooku in the middle of the Dark Side nexus that is Vjun. But I feel that his attack and size are his real defenses.I wasn't so much saying that Yoda is incapable of defense or chooses not to fall back on defense, but that his preference to charge in gun's blazing shows a complete lack of strategy or forethought. Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 "If the machine of canon is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of falsehood, then, I say, break the law." ....... I wasn't so much saying that Yoda is incapable of defense or chooses not to fall back on defense, but that his preference to charge in gun's blazing shows a complete lack of strategy or forethought. I remember who said that. And I'll reply with one that I made before. Canon is canon. Don't like it? Deal with it. Harsh? Yes, but whining isn't going to change a gosh darn thing. The source of your information becomes clearer every moment. Your words betray you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 Further proof that Yoda is Mace Windu's superior- An aide appeared at the edge of the transceiver's view of Palpatine, telling the Chancellor in a low voice that he was very late for his next appointment. "Duty calls," Palpatine said, moving to cut the comm channel. Then he paused. "Master Windu, since we are being frank with one another today, let me add in these briefings I wish to hear your own unvarnished opinions- not what you think Master Yoda would have said. He is a great being-perhaps the greatest in the Republic. But Master Yoda is a teacher at heart. You are a warrior. Regrettably, this sad age of the world may be your time more than his. "Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said.- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, page 153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 I remember who said that. And I'll reply with one that I made before. Canon is canon. Don't like it? Deal with it. Harsh? Yes, but whining isn't going to change a gosh darn thing. The source of your information becomes clearer every moment. Your words betray you. Waaah! Not but really, I approach canon as a source of objective truth, but if it's just plain wrong then there is a justification for refuting it. Indeed: "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Regardless saying Yoda is the best duelist in the Order is a very much interpretable statement. He may be the best on paper, but in practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Further proof that Yoda is Mace Windu's superior- - Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, page 153Again intepretable, Yoda is a great tactician and has no troubled dispatching anything other than a lightsaber duelist. And even against lightsaber duelists the likelihood is that he'll overwhelm with with an Ataru flurry. But does this make him an exceptional swordsman? No. Then again I'm not exactly saying that Yoda is not as powerful as Windu. That's not my point. In fact Yoda's probably better. But that doesn't change the fact that Yoda is a staunch traditionalist enslaved to form and in battle displays no tactical ability whatsoever, and does some really silly things, which would leave him very much unstuck against a more unorthodox or more powerful duelist such as Vader, or Sidious. However the fact remains that Yoda is highly skilled, and easily on the greatest duelist in the Order. However he's my no means perfect. (Yeah I know nobody is perfect but Yoda is seriously flawed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Again intepretable, Yoda is a great tactician and has no troubled dispatching anything other than a lightsaber duelist. And even against lightsaber duelists the likelihood is that he'll overwhelm with with an Ataru flurry. But does this make him an exceptional swordsman? No. Then again I'm not exactly saying that Yoda is not as powerful as Windu. That's not my point. In fact Yoda's probably better. But that doesn't change the fact that Yoda is a staunch traditionalist enslaved to form and in battle displays no tactical ability whatsoever, and does some really silly things, which would leave him very much unstuck against a more unorthodox or more powerful duelist such as Vader, or Sidious. However the fact remains that Yoda is highly skilled, and easily on the greatest duelist in the Order. However he's my no means perfect. (Yeah I know nobody is perfect but Yoda is seriously flawed.) Given that Yoda and Mace Windu have sparred several times, I think there is no room for interpretation. Mace says Yoda is better than him. End of story. Yes, Yoda has his flaws, and I know which ones you refer to (even the ones you keep secret), but the fact remains that he has held his own against Darth Sidious. Waaah! Not but really, I approach canon as a source of objective truth, but if it's just plain wrong then there is a justification for refuting it. Indeed: "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Regardless saying Yoda is the best duelist in the Order is a very much interpretable statement. He may be the best on paper, but in practice? Considering that Mace Windu required Vaapad to hold his own with Sidious, and Yoda did without, I think the evidence is clear. Then we have George Lucas, Leland Chee, the ROTS novel, several sourcebooks, and Nick Gillard all saying that Yoda is the best in the Order. The evidence is quite clear. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 I proclaim this match (and the side debate that was created) to be over. Darth Vader was the clear victor here. Stay tuned for the next match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Given that Yoda and Mace Windu have sparred several times, I think there is no room for interpretation. Mace says Yoda is better than him. End of story. Yes, Yoda has his flaws, and I know which ones you refer to (even the ones you keep secret), but the fact remains that he has held his own against Darth Sidious.And yet just before we were discussing how sparring matches aren't indicative of ability. But regardless I'm happy to admit that Yoda could defeat Windu, in fact I'm not sure how we even got into this debate. By challenging canon I just mean the whole idea that Yoda is a amazing duelist when he simply is not. Despite him being more powerful than Windu though I would refrain from calling him the 'greatest duelist in the Jedi Order', the most powerful duelist in the Jedi Order by all means yes. But the greatest? His flaws mean he simply cannot be given that title. And yes he held his own against Sidious, but the fact remains he lost because of those flaws. And is indicative of the fact that despite being the supposed greatest of them all, he could not adapt to an opponent of equal/greater power as him. And yeah, I should probably mention that Yoda has tiny eyeballs on his feet, hence why he's jumping about all the time and favors a hoverchair. Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 [/color]And yet just before we were discussing how sparring matches aren't indicative of ability. But regardless I'm happy to admit that Yoda could defeat Windu. However I would refrain from calling him the 'greatest duelist', the most powerful duelist by all means yes. But the greatest? His flaws mean he simply cannot be given that title. And yes he held his own against Sidious, but the fact remains he lost because of those flaws. And yeah, I should probably mention that Yoda has tiny eyeballs on his feet, hence why he's jumping about all the time and favors a hoverchair. The greatest duelist is Luke Skywalker, by canon fact. Nick Gillard says Mace Windu is second to Yoda. His word should carry weight because he designed lightsaber combat. And then we have George Lucas saying that 'you have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine.' I understand your reasoning (despite you keeping them secret), but the fact is that he has been stated by out-of-universe sources a being the best in the Order at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 The greatest duelist is Luke Skywalker, by canon fact. Nick Gillard says Mace Windu is second to Yoda. His word should carry weight because he designed lightsaber combat. And then we have George Lucas saying that 'you have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine.' I understand your reasoning (despite you keeping them secret), but the fact is that he has been stated by out-of-universe sources a being the best in the Order at the time.I made some edits but doesn't change much, however I mean the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order at that time. And I just said I agreed with you on the Windu part and of course you have to be Windu or Yoda to challenge Sidious, he's Darth Sidious. But regardless, great and powerful are too different things. And I think Yoda is powerful, not great. Canon doesn't necessarily dispute this. And you'll probably find that my reasoning is what you think it is... cause I feel I'm making it pretty clear. So that would be kinda awkward. I mean along with the eyes on his feet I suppose we should mention that Yoda has arthritis... and his eyesight can't be all that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) I made some edits but doesn't change much, however I mean the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order at that time. And I just said I agreed with you on the Windu part and of course you have to be Windu or Yoda to challenge Sidious, he's Darth Sidious. But regardless, great and powerful are too different things. And I think Yoda is powerful, not great. Canon doesn't necessarily dispute this. And you'll probably find that my reasoning is what you think it is... cause I feel I'm making it pretty clear. So that would be kinda awkward. I mean along with the eyes on his feet I suppose we should mention that Yoda has arthritis... and his eyesight can't be all that good. I see your point, but I won't ignore the facts. Well Yoda is 800 years old. Not many people can live so long without their body degenerating. But how many people live that long? Also, I don't know of any evidence saying Yoda's eyesight is bad, but that really didn't bother Kreia. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoshiRaphElan Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 So, who's next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcelo_sdk Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) So, who's next? Patience, we still need the oficial outcome. Wich will be Vader choking Bulq to the death! Edited June 9, 2013 by marcelo_sdk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 9, 2013 Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 Patience, we still need the oficial outcome. Wich will ne Vader choking Bulq to the death! The decision has already been made. Vader won. But to the actual question, I don't know who's next. I usually deliberate who's next during the debate, but this didn't last long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcelo_sdk Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 The decision has already been made. Vader won. But to the actual question, I don't know who's next. I usually deliberate who's next during the debate, but this didn't last long. I just saw the ones who haven't fight yet, and I think that every match you decide to throw will be a very fierce one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 well I guess I am going to save my analysis of vaders abilities for his next fight...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I am not getting involved in these VS threads anymore - but I am Glad Vader won..... (And Seeing People being a bit More reasonable about Windu's abilities) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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