The BattleZone Round 1 Match 09: Sora Bulq vs. Darth Vader

[Aurbere]

Seems the general consensus is that Vader wins. That's expected. To be honest, I didn't make this match under the illusion that Sora Bulq could win. He was a throwaway character to get Vader into Round 2. Seems selfish, but I had two other characters that I was going to pair Vader up with: Darth Plagueis and Exar Kun. I didn't want to lose any of the three so soon, so I used Sora Bulq unjustly to get Vader into the next round.

 

I'll let the thread go for the rest of the day, but I don't expect Sora to get any sort of support.

 

As an aside, I still disagree with the notion that Vader is the superior duelist, but it doesn't matter anymore.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

He is just really...there. I mean he is only really notable, because of Vapaad and his affliction with Dooku(but then there are others afflicted with him). Though I am curious as to why you believe Sora the superior duelist Aurbere.

[Aurbere]

He is just really...there. I mean he is only really notable, because of Vapaad and his affliction with Dooku(but then there are others afflicted with him). Though I am curious as to why you believe Sora the superior duelist Aurbere.

 

Perhaps I worded it wrong. Vader is obviously the better duelist here because his abilities can exploit all of Sora's weaknesses. But in terms of overall skill, I believe Sora Bulq to have a greater mastery of lightsaber combat. He has regularly been seen as Mace Windu's equal and (as noted on the now non-existent version of the Star War databank) he was one of the greatest lightsaber combat instructors in the history of the Jedi Order.

 

But my feelings on the matter are irrelevant as Vader has the tools to take advantage of Bulq's weaknesses.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Perhaps I worded it wrong. Vader is obviously the better duelist here because his abilities can exploit all of Sora's weaknesses. But in terms of overall skill, I believe Sora Bulq to have a greater mastery of lightsaber combat. He has regularly been seen as Mace Windu's equal and (as noted on the now non-existent version of the Star War databank) he was one of the greatest lightsaber combat instructors in the history of the Jedi Order.

 

But my feelings on the matter are irrelevant as Vader has the tools to take advantage of Bulq's weaknesses.

 

So being Mace's equal puts him above everyone below? How do we know Vader wouldn't be a match for Windu? Even pre-suit?

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Seems the general consensus is that Vader wins. That's expected. To be honest, I didn't make this match under the illusion that Sora Bulq could win. He was a throwaway character to get Vader into Round 2. Seems selfish, but I had two other characters that I was going to pair Vader up with: Darth Plagueis and Exar Kun. I didn't want to lose any of the three so soon, so I used Sora Bulq unjustly to get Vader into the next round.

 

I'll let the thread go for the rest of the day, but I don't expect Sora to get any sort of support.

 

As an aside, I still disagree with the notion that Vader is the superior duelist, but it doesn't matter anymore.

Its called... er, I can't remember what its called.

 

Oh well, I may as well address your beliefs concerning dueling ability. And by address I mean KNOCK OUT OF THE PARK! KAPOW!

 

No but seriously, I believe Vader is the superior duelist - and not just in terms of rock, paper, scissors. Yes Bulq has mastered seven of the lightsaber forms, yes he was regarded as one of the greatest duelists of the Order, and yes he could fight on part with Windu. But was not Vader before becoming a Sith Lord renowned as an exceptional duelist in his own right? Did he not defeat Count Dooku, who in turn was also considered Windu's equal? And did his skills not considerable improve upon becoming a Sith Lord?

 

Vader achieved complete mastery over Djem So, and not only that, he achieved mastery over his own specialised lightsaber form which was powerful, unpredictable and crisp, incorporating elements of all seven lightsaber forms. Now in my opinion this indicates greater skill with a lightsaber than simply mastering each form to their nth degree. Vader's hybrid form is far more deadly than any of the single forms that Bulq can draw on.

 

Which leads us to Vaapad, ironically he chooses to use the only form he didn't master. Its often said that Bulq did not master Vaapad, Vaapad mastered him. And this is true. Upon falling to the dark side Bulq embraced the dark side fully and allowed it to transform him into a bloodthirsty animal. As a distinctly Jedi form his skill with Vaapad regressed into Juyo. He lost ability to absorb Force based attacks and his defense dissolved into nothing. The rage and fury in which he enters a battle blinds him from his surroundings and from the intentions of his opponent, robbing him of any tactical ability that might have improved his usage of a lightsaber.

 

So, while on paper it would seem that Bulq is the superior duelist, having mastered all seven lightsaber forms (excluding Vaapad) in reality his abilities do not stack up to Vader's own mastery of a form he created himself. And in turn Bulq has allowed the dark side to whittle away at his ability, revealing weaknesses in his form.

[marcelo_sdk]

So being Mace's equal puts him above everyone below? How do we know Vader wouldn't be a match for Windu? Even pre-suit?

 

First, I hardly doubt that Bulq was Mace's equal. As to why Vader, both pre or post-suit, was not a match to Windu? I infere that by the fact that Palpatine was not a match to Windu.

[Aurbere]

So being Mace's equal puts him above everyone below?

 

No, not at all. All I'm saying is that he is an extremely skilled duelist, and served as one of the Order's greatest lightsaber combat instructors.

 

How do we know Vader wouldn't be a match for Windu? Even pre-suit?

 

I can't say. Perhaps, perhaps not. It's too difficult to call, but if I had to make one, I would say that he would be a good match for Windu, but I don't see him winning a straight up lightsaber duel. If put int he same scenario as this match-up? He has a pretty good chance.

 

Not that it matters, I never said that Bulq could beat Vader, just that I don't believe Vader to have superior lightsaber skill here. When it comes to the actual duel itself, Vader's advantages outweigh Bulq's advantages. Not only that, but Vader's advantages are the scissors to Bulq's Paper (paper being Bulq's staggering weakness in defense).

[Beniboybling]

So being Mace's equal puts him above everyone below? How do we know Vader wouldn't be a match for Windu? Even pre-suit?

Exactly, and arguably he is. In terms of lightsaber ability Vader is easily up there with Windu, Dooku etc. In fact (prepare yourselves for my radical opinions) I think he could defeat Yoda. Yup, believe it. Believe it. YAH!

 

EDIT: However, for various reasons. I believe Mace Windu could defeat Vader... maybe.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

First, I hardly doubt that Bulq was Mace's equal. As to why Vader, both pre or post-suit, was not a match to Windu? I infere that by the fact that Palpatine was not a match to Windu.

 

Well Palpatine and Mace were equal and only equal due to Mace getting an amp by Vapaad by drawing on the darkside coming off of Palpatine. So really it was Windu who wasn't a match for Palpatine, if he had to submerge himself fully into Vapaad and even then they came to an impass.

 

Exactly, and arguably he is. In terms of lightsaber ability Vader is easily up there with Windu, Dooku etc. In fact (prepare yourselves for my radical opinions) I think he could defeat Yoda. Yup, believe it. Believe it. YAH!

 

Now, now I wouldn't go that far Beni. Yoda was able to last against Palpatine, without an amp something which Windu needed to even last.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Its called... er, I can't remember what its called.

 

Oh well, I may as well address your beliefs concerning dueling ability. And by address I mean KNOCK OUT OF THE PARK! KAPOW!

 

Let's see.

 

Did he not defeat Count Dooku, who in turn was also considered Windu's equal? And did his skills not considerable improve upon becoming a Sith Lord?

 

Jedi Master Dooku was Windu's equal. During the Battle of Boz Pity, Mace Windu very easily defeated Count Dooku.

 

Vader achieved complete mastery over Djem So, and not only that, he achieved mastery over his own specialised lightsaber form which was powerful, unpredictable and crisp, incorporating elements of all seven lightsaber forms. Now in my opinion this indicates greater skill with a lightsaber than simply mastering each form to their nth degree. Vader's hybrid form is far more deadly than any of the single forms that Bulq can draw on.

 

Bulq was also a master of the experimental and obscure lightsaber forms. What these forms are, I do not know.

 

Which leads us to Vaapad, ironically he chooses to use the only form he didn't master. Its often said that Bulq did not master Vaapad, Vaapad mastered him. And this is true. Upon falling to the dark side Bulq embraced the dark side fully and allowed it to transform him into a bloodthirsty animal. As a distinctly Jedi form his skill with Vaapad regressed into Juyo. He lost ability to absorb Force based attacks and his defense dissolved into nothing. The rage and fury in which he enters a battle blinds him from his surroundings and from the intentions of his opponent, robbing him of any tactical ability that might have improved his usage of a lightsaber.

 

Well, I do point this out in the OP.

 

So, while on paper it would seem that Bulq is the superior duelist, having mastered all seven lightsaber forms (excluding Vaapad) in reality his abilities do not stack up to Vader's own mastery of a form he created himself. And in turn Bulq has allowed the dark side to whittle away at his ability, revealing weaknesses in his form.

 

I think you are referring to how these two match up, and not overall skill. I fully agree that Vader is one of the best duelists of all time, and could beat Bulq. But when I address lightsaber skill, I have tried not to focus on how the two match-up, but their overall skill. Something that I should stop doing ()

[Aurbere]

EDIT: However, for various reasons. I believe Mace Windu could defeat Vader... maybe.

 

Force Crush to flashy chest buttons?

[Beniboybling]

Now, now I wouldn't go that far Beni. Yoda was able to last against Palpatine, without an amp something which Windu needed to even last.

You'll find holding one's own against an opponent is far different from defeating them.

 

I once believed that Yoda could have defeated Palpatine in that duel, but luck (or the will of the Force) was against him. However I have since reassessed this belief, Yoda was able to hold his own against Palpatine yes but if the duel had progressed any longer, he would have died. Simply but he would have exhausted himself and been defeated. There are also other exceptional circumstances that meant Yoda was more able to fight Palpatine than he would Yoda. But this isn't the time or place to have such a debate.

 

Its certainly worth having though...

 

EDIT: I've also since come to see that Yoda isn't greatest duelist in the Order that he's cracked up to be.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

EDIT: I've also since come to see that Yoda isn't greatest duelist in the Order that he's cracked up to be.

 

I know what you are referring to, and I only partially agree. For another time, though.

[marcelo_sdk]

Well Palpatine and Mace were equal and only equal due to Mace getting an amp by Vapaad by drawing on the darkside coming off of Palpatine. So really it was Windu who wasn't a match for Palpatine, if he had to submerge himself fully into Vapaad and even then they came to an impass.

 

 

 

Now, now I wouldn't go that far Beni. Yoda was able to last against Palpatine, without an amp something which Windu needed to even last.

 

The wayy you say, it sounds like this "amp" is something external. Vaapad was his fighting style, and all the advantages he got on the fight were due to his skill, both with a lightsaber and with the Force. And saying that they came to a impass, is, to call the least, extreme fanboyism.

 

But let's end this here, this is Vader x Bulq, not Windu x Palpatine.

Edited June 8, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Aurbere]

The wayy you say, it sounds like this "amp" is something external. Vaapad was his fighting style, and all the advantages he got on the fight were due to his skill, both with a lightsaber and with the Force. And saying that they came to a impass, is, to call the least, extreme fanboyism.

 

But let's end this here, this is Vader x Bul, not Windu x Palpatine.

 

Technically the novel states that they were at an impasse.

 

But really there isn't much to move on to. The battle's all but decided. Now this is just pointless bickering.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You'll find holding one's own against an opponent is far different from defeating them.

 

I once believed that Yoda could have defeated Palpatine in that duel, but luck (or the will of the Force) was against him. However I have since reassessed this belief, Yoda was able to hold his own against Palpatine yes but if the duel had progressed any longer, he would have died. Simply but he would have exhausted himself and been defeated. There are also other exceptional circumstances that meant Yoda was more able to fight Palpatine than he would Yoda. But this isn't the time or place to have such a debate.

 

Its certainly worth having though...

 

EDIT: I've also since come to see that Yoda isn't greatest duelist in the Order that he's cracked up to be.

 

True there is a difference, and yes Yoda is the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order.

 

But anyway...were kinda getting off topic lol.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Let's see.

Can you smell that? Overwhelming confidence...

Jedi Master Dooku was Windu's equal. During the Battle of Boz Pity, Mace Windu very easily defeated Count Dooku.

Yet we all know why, Vaapad. And I don't think we should consider the spiritual aspects of the form when gauging lightsaber ability.

Bulq was also a master of the experimental and obscure lightsaber forms. What these forms are, I do not know.

I'll give him points for the shoto, if that's what this is in part referring to. But knowledge of and application of are two very different things.

I think you are referring to how these two match up, and not overall skill. I fully agree that Vader is one of the best duelists of all time, and could beat Bulq. But when I address lightsaber skill, I have tried not to focus on how the two match-up, but their overall skill. Something that I should stop doing ()

No I'm actually trying to avoid that, I think that overall, Vader is just the better duelist, and against any opponent would fare better. Bulq is the traditional swordsmaster, but Vader is something far more unique and more dangerous and effective because of that. Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

True there is a difference, and yes Yoda is the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order.

 

But anyway...were kinda getting off topic lol.

 

/waveshand "There is no topic."

 

This can be boiled down to a spite thread. I had no faith that Sora Bulq could defeat Vader. I put him in just so Vader could move on to the next round. That and the only other good opponents for him are already matched up.

[Beniboybling]

True there is a difference, and yes Yoda is the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order.

 

But anyway...were kinda getting off topic lol.

On paper, it would seem so. But that's all I'll say on the matter.

 

Though to be honest, I'm questioning Windu's abilities as well. And seeing as this debate is pretty much over I may as well ask... how was it that Windu was defeated by Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi in a sparring match?

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Can you smell that? Overwhelming confidence... [/color]

 

Kinda...

 

Yet we all know why, Vaapad. And I don't think we should consider the spiritual aspects of the form when gauging lightsaber ability.

 

It was a pretty quick duel regardless. Mace Windu's inability to use Vaapad on Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Sora Bulq (during the creation of Vaapad), and Master Dooku was the biggest reason for their ability to fight on equal terms with him.

 

That and Dooku's a lightsaber combat savant.

 

I'll give him points for the shoto, if that's what this is in part referring to. But knowledge of and application of are two very different things.

 

I don't think the evidence means his use of the shoto. I just have no idea what is meant by experimental and obscure lightsaber forms. Perhaps forms that he developed? Maybe, but where is the evidence of it?

 

No I'm actually trying to avoid that, I think that overall, Vader is just the better duelist, and against any opponent would fare better. Bulq is the traditional swordsmaster, but Vader is something far more unique and more dangerous and effective because of that.

 

I find the notion of Vader being completely superior to Bulq debateable*, but this could be some major backing to Dooku's belief that a duelist dedicated to a single form can defeat a master of the technical aspects of many forms through the use of unorthodox tactics, something he excelled in.

 

*But let's face it, a straight up duel would fall into Vader's hands for reasons mentioned earlier.

[Beniboybling]

/waveshand "There is no topic."

 

This can be boiled down to a spite thread. I had no faith that Sora Bulq could defeat Vader. I put him in just so Vader could move on to the next round. That and the only other good opponents for him are already matched up.

Its called seeding, yup that's what its called. Naturally the more powerful combatants e.g. Vader, Exar Kun, Dooku, Traya () are going to be placed against combatants they are likely to beat. Else we'll find a more powerful combatant getting knocked out in the first round, and less interesting debate will follow.

 

Seeding, sounds better than 'spite thread'.

[Aurbere]

On paper, it would seem so. But that's all I'll say on the matter.

 

Though to be honest, I'm questioning Windu's abilities as well. And seeing as this debate is pretty much over I may as well ask... how was it that Windu was defeated by Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi in a sparring match?

 

George Lucas has said that Yoda is the better duelist.

 

Plo Koon was also defeated by Padawan Kenobi in a sparring match. I don't think those matches are very good evidence of overall skill. Are we really about to say that Padawan Kenobi could hold his own against Sidious?

 

I can only speak for Plo Koon's match here. Their sparring match was just a test to see how far Obi-Wan had progressed. So take that as you will.

[Aurbere]

Its called seeding, yup that's what its called. Naturally the more powerful combatants e.g. Vader, Exar Kun, Dooku, Traya () are going to be placed against combatants they are likely to beat. Else we'll find a more powerful combatant getting knocked out in the first round, and less interesting debate will follow.

 

Seeding, sounds better than 'spite thread'.

 

Ah, that's what it's called. Thanks!

 

Edit: I saw that slip in with Traya. We'll see how far she goes.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

I find the notion of Vader being completely superior to Bulq debateable*, but this could be some major backing to Dooku's belief that a duelist dedicated to a single form can defeat a master of the technical aspects of many forms through the use of unorthodox tactics, something he excelled in.

 

*But let's face it, a straight up duel would fall into Vader's hands for reasons mentioned earlier.

Well, if we choose to disregard the fact that he has mastered several forms as he only chooses to use Vaapad, we find his abilities lacking. Mainly because he failed to master Vaapad and his abilities therefore suffered as a result.

 

I mean, unless you incorporate your mastery of each form into a single hybrid form like Vader did, then all that really matters is the mastery of the Form you choose to use. I think this is in part Yoda's weakness as well.

[Wolfninjajedi]

The wayy you say, it sounds like this "amp" is something external. Vaapad was his fighting style, and all the advantages he got on the fight were due to his skill, both with a lightsaber and with the Force. And saying that they came to a impass, is, to call the least, extreme fanboyism.

 

But let's end this here, this is Vader x Bulq, not Windu x Palpatine.

 

When I mean amp, I mean Windu was having help against his fighting with Palpatine by drawing on Palpatine's darkness to keep himself alive and contending with him. As such the novel states this..

 

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

 

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

 

There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

 

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

 

Neither did he have power over it.

 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

 

Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

 

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

So clearly Mace was amped during the fight to even keep up with Palpatine.