How is Revan godlike?

[QuiDonJorn]

I always thought that the Revanites were made to make fun of how extreme Revan fanboys can get. Find it weird that Revan fans never picked up on that

This...that was the first thing I thought when running that quest on Dromund Kaas as my first Inquisitor.

Seemed alot to me that BW was making fun of the fanboys, but I'm sure the fanboys just shrugged it off and went "Revan's a GAWWDDD!!!"

Probably because they played as him in KOTOR.

How someone gets to Revan=Me, therefore Revan=Godlike, is absurd. But then you have to take into account the 10 years the fanboys have had to build the character up into what they now perceive as...

'Tactical Genius,' 'Most Powerful ever,' 'Master duelist,'

My question is (because I'm not really that much into the lore) ..what novels/comics/other lore depicted Revan as this unequaled bad*** that

should have lolstomped the Emperor

?

..did fanboys do this or did Bioware?

 

Anyway, the way I think about it is simply that my characters are cooler than Revan..

[AlexDougherty]

I think people consider him that because he had a complete mastery of the Force, channeling both light and dark sides to "unleash the Force in its purest form."

 

Also, he kind of was a tactical and military genius...

 

He never had complete mastery of the force, before the Jedi mindwiped him he was darkside, with knowledge of Jedi Techniques but still darkside, after Jedi mindwiped him he was Lightside with no knowledge of the Darkside (it got erased). At no point did he have complete knowledge of both sides of the force. He did however discover the Rakata and their legacy among other things.

 

The military/tactical genius has some foundation in fact, before he brought the Jedi into the mandalorean wars, the republic was losing, badly. He is ascribed with both the overall tactics that won the war, and specifically the tactics that won several battles, it is said in the games that numerous victories were down to his vision (tactics).

 

Basically he was among the best of his generation, but he was corrupted early on, and while he was redeemed and redeemed Bastilla as well, he was not immune to the darkside. No he was definately not godlike, and personally I feel that the Exile (Kotor2) was at least as interesting.

[AlexDougherty]

..did fanboys do this or did Bioware?

 

Anyway, the way I think about it is simply that my characters are cooler than Revan..

 

The Revan books did this, apparently Revan and the Exile are about to attack the Emperor (Vitiate) when they all have have a vision, which causes their Sith ally to betray them. Revan fanboys&fangirls have interpretted this as Revan was about to defeat the Emperor, but that's like saying in The Empire Strikes Back, that if someone had grabbed Han's blaster before he could shoot at Vader, then Han could have defeated Vader (assuming Han had another Blaster).

 

PS. sorry about the twisted logic at the end, but to write it out fully would take several paragraphs, and in this form it's just as twisted as the Fanboy logic.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Revan is by no means God-like, and whilst I sympathise with those irritated by the exaggerations or misinformation given by some 'Revanites' (of which I am self-proclaimed- actually scratch that; hence forth I shall be a Revanchist), many here downplay his abilities in equal measure. For example:

 

He's not godlike. Ignore any claims that include 'Tactical Genius,' 'Most Powerful ever,' 'Master duelist,' or anything else.

 

Excluding the middle one, which is quite frankly absurd, why should such claims be completely ignored?

 

He was tactically astute, being able to defeat the Mandalorians at their own game. He was also very tactful as the Dark Lord, given he was winning a war against the Republic whilst leaving their infrastructure completely in tact. Some degree of ruthless tactical skill is also displayed by the robot's questions on Kashyyyk, in which winning fights was shown to clearly not be enough- he also planned on which outcome would win the people to his cause, and win the war. He knew what counted as acceptable loss* and what victories were important. Maybe the term 'genius' doesn't quite apply, but that depends on who you listen to; many of his peers viewed him as such, as did his enemies. From a perspective point of view their opinion counts for something, but cannot be used as indisputable fact due to the fallible nature of all characters.

 

*

Arguably he himself was an acceptable loss, given nothing as of yet disproves the theory that he sacrificed himself to the dark side. Sure, Vitiate tipped him over the edge but he had been delving into it for a long time before that, both during the war and due to his lust for knowledge. Not to mention he also broke free of mind control fairly promptly, and decided to wage war as one Dark Lord to another, or to temper, through conflict, the Republic into something stronger than both.

 

 

He was also a master duellist, for during his natural (not extended) lifetime he was the greatest swordsman around, soundly defeating any other claimant in one on one combat. Now it is difficult to judge quite how good he was, given he had a limited pool of competition and there is little canon info on his saber form, mastery/lack of, or style. Still think Ataru is most fitting, but this is merely speculation.

 

No he wasn't, the closest thing to him using both sides was Oneness which is pretty much a rare thing to happen.

 

This is the popular theory, yes. But it should be noted it is only a theory. The book does state quite clearly he was drawing on both the light and dark side of the Force, however many consider this to violate G-canon and thus look for other reasonable explanations, of which Oneness is one.

 

The unfortunate truth is a lot about Revan is unknown and it is probably better it remain that way, to hold onto what little mystery remains about the character; the cost being that in debate situations it is very difficult to write a compelling argument favouring Revan. Whilst every reasonable benchmark we can use suggests Revan was both powerful and skilled in his own right, his (still impressive) accomplishments don't suggest the level power displayed by other, frequent candidates for [insert awesome trophy/debate/victory in combat]. Which is perfectly okay, the galaxy is a very large place, has existed for a very long time and has been inhabited by countless beings; there is always a bigger fish.

Edited June 7, 2013 by MyDarkSunshine

[MyDarkSunshine]

The Revan books did this, apparently Revan and the Exile are about to attack the Emperor (Vitiate) when they all have have a vision, which causes their Sith ally to betray them. Revan fanboys&fangirls have interpretted this as Revan was about to defeat the Emperor

 

It was a possibility. Scourge foresees many futures, in some of which they prevail and in the majority of which they all die horrible fates and the Emperor is left to continue on his plan. In every future featuring a certain future Jedi however, the Emperor was bested. Given how Meetra had already sacrificed an opportunity to kill Vitiate, so that she might save Revan instead, Scourge was probably starting to doubt his allies were as committed as he and so (rightly, IMO) betrayed them to ensure he could gain Vitiate's trust and thus influence the future and help the Jedi Knight he foresaw, directing things to one sound, destined outcome.

[jedimasterjac]

I'll share my opinion. In my early days on this site as "darthrevansmaster" I was a fanboy. I was more than that. But as I grew and matured, I realized Tevan -sucks-.

 

First, as a Jedi, he was awful. He betrayed the Council and fought in the Mandalorian wars. He then was betrayed by his own apprentice as a Sith, now, would the greatest dark lord ever allow his apprentice to betray him? Hell no. He then lost his memory and was rushed through Jedi training. Now, with his memories slowly coming back and not properly being trained as a Jedi, he wasn't trained in the Force enough to even be grey!

 

Now, on to this game. Would a man who found balance in the Force be intent on the genocide of the Sith race? No. A true person who felt -balance- would understand that race is there for a reason, a reason of balance.

 

While this is quick because I'm on my iPad, you get the point.

[Beniboybling]

I always thought that the Revanites were made to make fun of how extreme Revan fanboys can get. Find it weird that Revan fans never picked up on that

Ha ha! I never actually thought of it like that.

 

But yes, people idolize Revan for several reasons. We have to first understand that we have little objective facts concerning Revan. KOTOR I as a video-game is far from reliable, until Revan came along that was all we had. Given that people were left to make their own subjective assumptions concerning how powerful Revan actually was. And for various reasons, namely the attachment one gets from playing as Revan (how many times have you heard people signing the praises of Darth Nox? or the Hero of Tython?), the fact that he looks fairly awesome and the fact that just about everyone in-game showers him with praises, the fact he was both Jedi and Sith, people assumed him to be exceptionally powerful.

 

KOTOR II, Revan and SWTOR did little to clear up these misconceptions. In Revan he handidly defeats a powerful Dark Council member, who ROFLstomps Meetra and Scourge and in SWTOR he throws down meteors and the such in an epic boss battle. And KOTOR II just like KOTOR was filled with NPCs singing Revan's praises. The Revanite conception remained firm.

 

Now you may be asking, why hasn't the Exile received the same treatment? And that is a good question, in many was she has, its simply overshadowed by Revan-fanboyism to whom she is constantly squared up against. In turn this means people have to pick a side, and generally people choose the cooler looking one. We also have to consider the nature of her character, before Revan she was unnamed, sexless (lets face it Revan is a guys name) and altogether her backstory incredibly unambiguous. She was whoever you wanted to be, and as such sort of lost her place in Star Wars continuity. She wasn't an individual character cemented in Star Wars lore, just your character made manifest and given a Wookiee page.

 

But back on the topic of Revan, the various content released post-KOTOR does beget the question... maybe Revan is exceptionally powerful? Given thought, the only time Revan has been defeated was against the Sith Emperor himself, and even then he put up a fight. So in turn it asks the question, were does the opposing opinion come from? On what grounds do we have to say that Revan is not exceptionally powerful? In this thread alone I have yet to see any evidence other than 'its simply not the case' to suggest otherwise.

 

Its a very interesting discussion, and personally I'm not sure if their is a right answer. Many more reasoned people find it hard to accept that any Force user other than Yoda, Sidious, the Chosen One etc. can be described as exceptionally powerful. And therefore reject the notion. But that's pretty much as far as the grounds of their argument go.

 

Me? I think we have to take Revan's feats at face value. Like it or not Revan has on numerous occasions displayed exceptionally impressive feats pertaining to power in the Force. He has experienced oneness, single-handedly take on the armies of the Star Forge, defeated a Sith Lord powered by the Forge, effortlessly defeated a Dark Council member, had the strength to resist the mental will of the Sith Emperor and experienced a moment of oneness.

 

Now I'm probably going to stir some debate here, but I think it needs to be had. Objective debate that is. Because both sides are guilty in getting caught up in emotions to actually analyse the facts, which I assure you is the last thing you will see on such threads.

 

My opinion? I think his power in the Force was equal to that of Exar Kun. I think he was a highly skilled tactician. And I think its not worth discussing his skill with a lightsaber. I also begrudgingly accept that the Exile is not as powerful as he is. He is my no means all-powerful, nobody is. But like it or not he is a vastly powerful Force user, and BioWare will tell you just that I can assure you.

[Beniboybling]

No he wasn't, the closest thing to him using both sides was Oneness which is pretty much a rare thing to happen. Other then that one brief moment, he has no mastery of anything. If by tactical and military genius in using other groups tactics(mandalorians) then ya he could be one, though he stole the tactics.

Take this for example. Not picking on you personally Wolf. Do we have any evidence to support the fact that Revan did not master both the light and the dark? I'm not saying he did, but evidence to suggest he didn't is fairly shaky.

[mefit]

Ha ha! I never actually thought of it like that.

 

But yes, people idolize Revan for several reasons. We have to first understand that we have little objective facts concerning Revan. KOTOR I as a video-game is far from reliable, until Revan came along that was all we had. Given that people were left to make their own subjective assumptions concerning how powerful Revan actually was. And for various reasons, namely the attachment one gets from playing as Revan (how many times have you heard people signing the praises of Darth Nox? or the Hero of Tython?), the fact that he looks fairly awesome and the fact that just about everyone in-game showers him with praises, the fact he was both Jedi and Sith, people assumed him to be exceptionally powerful.

 

KOTOR II, Revan and SWTOR did little to clear up these misconceptions. In Revan he handidly defeats a powerful Dark Council member, who ROFLstomps Meetra and Scourge and in SWTOR he throws down meteors and the such in an epic boss battle. And KOTOR II just like KOTOR was filled with NPCs singing Revan's praises. The Revanite conception remained firm.

 

Now you may be asking, why hasn't the Exile received the same treatment? And that is a good question, in many was she has, its simply overshadowed by Revan-fanboyism to whom she is constantly squared up against. In turn this means people have to pick a side, and generally people choose the cooler looking one. We also have to consider the nature of her character, before Revan she was unnamed, sexless (lets face it Revan is a guys name) and altogether her backstory incredibly unambiguous. She was whoever you wanted to be, and as such sort of lost her place in Star Wars continuity. She wasn't an individual character cemented in Star Wars lore, just your character made manifest and given a Wookiee page.

The Exile was a Jedi and died a Jedi , they do not get the same treatment as Sithlords and are suppose to fade .... While I think it would be cool to have a Jedi Archives("This is where she would shine") in SWTOR to the point of its history , that is highly unlikely . The Exile have some cool parts in Republic Flash Points though . But yes it was ultimately about Revan...........

Jedi do things not for name or to be remembered ......

But back on the topic of Revan, the various content released post-KOTOR does beget the question... maybe Revan is exceptionally powerful? Given thought, the only time Revan has been defeated was against the Sith Emperor himself, and even then he put up a fight. So in turn it asks the question, were does the opposing opinion come from? On what grounds do we have to say that Revan is not exceptionally powerful? In this thread alone I have yet to see any evidence other than 'its simply not the case' to suggest otherwise.

Bioware has trolled us all with no real release of stats for Revan . It is really sad that so far what he has mastered or able to do is hidden after 10years of being made . Not to mention did he really die in Foundry or is he out there somewhere ..........

Its a very interesting discussion, and personally I'm not sure if their is a right answer. Many more reasoned people find it hard to accept that any Force user other than Yoda, Sidious, the Chosen One etc. can be described as exceptionally powerful. And therefore reject the notion. But that's pretty much as far as the grounds of their argument go.

 

Me? I think we have to take Revan's feats at face value. Like it or not Revan has on numerous occasions displayed exceptionally impressive feats pertaining to power in the Force. He has experienced oneness, single-handedly take on the armies of the Star Forge, defeated a Sith Lord powered by the Forge, effortlessly defeated a Dark Council member, had the strength to resist the mental will of the Sith Emperor and experienced a moment of oneness.

^ This is what I go by , its often the same argument used to describe how powerful and skilled The Exile (Meetra) is .

Now I'm probably going to stir some debate here, but I think it needs to be had. Objective debate that is. Because both sides are guilty in getting caught up in emotions to actually analyse the facts, which I assure you is the last thing you will see on such threads.

 

My opinion? I think his power in the Force was equal to that of Exar Kun. I think he was a highly skilled tactician. And I think its not worth discussing his skill with a lightsaber. I also begrudgingly accept that the Exile is not as powerful as he is. He is my no means all-powerful, nobody is. But like it or not he is a vastly powerful Force user, and BioWare will tell you just that I can assure you.

I do not know about this , Exar Kun was felt and remembered thoughout history . Revan fades away and his family from what I can tell fades aswell . From what I can see and I could be wrong , there is no Shans running around in Luke's timeline .

Revan was not a God , was not nowhere as powerful as Luke , Anakin , Sidious ......etc

Its does not matter to me in the long run , is being weaker than the names above hurt him as a Character ?

I think not .

 

I myself was a Fan of Darth Revan , and the lore of the character before that point . I was a Fan of him uptil this game and the Revan Novel which both kinda killed him to me . I find myself at times trying to like him , but then I am reminded by the Revan Novel and him in this game ......

This go back and forth thing of Good to Evil to Good to Evil to Good ..............is just weird and makes him look mentally weak , which KotoR I and II would have you believing otherwise .

So now the current Revan we have is a Joke and to make him God like would be the Biggest Joke of them all.

 

If Bioware brings him back as anything other than Darth Revan , then they will kill his character overall .

Revan was on the path and became a Dark Jedi long before he met the Emperor , it would have seemed that Revan was the Real Revan . The brainwashed Revan he became was a false imagine .

 

To say Drew K. was a Revan fanboy is far from the truth , it seems like he assassinated his character in both the novel and this game . He was there when they decided to make the Revanites , which does seem like the extreme Revan fanbase . People who live in Characters are weird to begin with , they are ""JUST"" Characters made up for your Entertainment .

 

Revan was so powerful he allowed people weaker than him to lock him up till Meetra found him and he ultimately saved her life only to allow her to die and get himself locked up for 300 years..........................that is a joke .

If Revan was so powerful and Meetra was too , plus Scourage...............I mean what a Joke if the JK comes along and kills the Emperor Solo . THAT WOULD MAKE THE JK more powerful than Revan . Which is not so bad really .

 

I wish either Leland Chee or Bioware or some Author that would be trusted would finally answer the questions everyone wants to know about Revan , so we can finally have closure on a Character that has done Feats of a Great Jedi and Sith but is complete mystery when it comes to powers and skills................ Good God why is it taking so long !!!!!!

Edited June 7, 2013 by mefit

[TalonVII]

Well I am merely going to say this. Revan was strong in the force. If you deny that, then you deny Palpatine as one of the strongest Sith ever.

 

Revan was one of those jedi/sith that was a natural, gifted even. If he hadn't he wouldn't or couldn't of done all that he did.

 

But was he godlike? No, not even close. I equate him to around some of the best jedi and sith ever. Do I think he surpasses them all? No. He does not.

 

Now moving along, not calling him what he had achieved like "master strategist" is fool hardy. I mean had he been average at tactics and strategy, he would of not turned the tide of the Mandalorian war. You could throw all the jedi in the universe at the mandalorains, but without a good strategy to back that up, it would of been meaningless.

 

Now again not calling him unbeatable in strategy, Malak proved that, but not calling him a superior or Master strategist, that's just silly.

 

So all and all, Revan was strong in the force, an amazing duelist[if he wasn't he'd be dead long before he could do what he did] and a very smart and cunning man. One of the best. Notice is said one of the best. But no he was not the best ever.

[Beniboybling]

The Exile was a Jedi and died a Jedi , they do not get the same treatment as Sithlords and are suppose to fade .... While I think it would be cool to have a Jedi Archives("This is where she would shine") in SWTOR to the point of its history , that is highly unlikely . The Exile have some cool parts in Republic Flash Points though . But yes it was ultimately about Revan...........

Jedi do things not for name or to be remembered ......

Mmm, completely agree with you here.

do not know about this , Exar Kun was felt and remembered thoughout history . Revan fades away and his family from what I can tell fades aswell . From what I can see and I could be wrong , there is no Shans running around in Luke's timeline .

True I was probably wrong to say that, although Revan left a lasting impression on the galaxy and was considered by Bane to be the greatest Sith Lord ever (another Revan-fanboy ) but then again I can't really be completely sure. He could certainly hold his own I'd say that.

 

I'd say he's more powerful than Darth Bane, and less powerful than Exar Kun. What we cannot deny however was that he was the greatest Jedi of his age, and that was before he became 'Revan Reborn' who in my opinion is considerably more powerful.

[Beniboybling]

Now moving along, not calling him what he had achieved like "master strategist" is fool hardy. I mean had he been average at tactics and strategy, he would of not turned the tide of the Mandalorian war. You could throw all the jedi in the universe at the mandalorains, but without a good strategy to back that up, it would of been meaningless.

 

Now again not calling him unbeatable in strategy, Malak proved that, but not calling him a superior or Master strategist, that's just silly.

 

So all and all, Revan was strong in the force, an amazing duelist[if he wasn't he'd be dead long before he could do what he did] and a very smart and cunning man. One of the best. Notice is said one of the best. But no he was not the best ever.

On the topic of Malak though, we should remember that he didn't expect to be stabbed in the back, it does say much for his strategic ability. What does is the way he conquered the Republic, he didn't just go around destroying them as Malak would go on to do, he effectively converted them. Not just the Jedi, the entire Republic. I'd say that points to a high level of strategic ability indeed.

 

I mean the main argument against him is that he just copied the Mandalorian strategy, but is not using your enemy's tactics against them not a stroke of genius? Now this is not to say that Revan is a military genius, although it should be noted that he has been described as such by numerous source books as well as in-game characters.

 

But yes, he was not the best ever in any respect but one of the best at least in the Old Republic era.

[TalonVII]

On the topic of Malak though, we should remember that he didn't expect to be stabbed in the back, it does say much for his strategic ability. What does is the way he conquered the Republic, he didn't just go around destroying them as Malak would go on to do, he effectively converted them. Not just the Jedi, the entire Republic. I'd say that points to a high level of strategic ability indeed.

 

I mean the main argument against him is that he just copied the Mandalorian strategy, but is not using your enemy's tactics against them not a stroke of genius? Now this is not to say that Revan is a military genius, although it should be noted that he has been described as such by numerous source books as well as in-game characters.

 

But yes, he was not the best ever in any respect but one of the best at least in the Old Republic era.

 

Exactly when you talk to g0-t0, you find out that Revan while he did attack parts of the republic, it was more to cow certain aspects so he could later convert them to his flag. He wouldn't of bombed Taris into rubble for no reason, there was no tactical or strategic advantage to it.

 

Revan was destroying to reshape and rebuild the Republic into something else. Malak just wanted to destroy because he was a sadist who destroyed just for the pleasure of it.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Revan was not a God , was not nowhere as powerful as Luke , Anakin , Sidious ......etc

Its does not matter to me in the long run , is being weaker than the names above hurt him as a Character ?

I think not .

 

Quite agree.

 

This go back and forth thing of Good to Evil to Good to Evil to Good ..............is just weird and makes him look mentally weak , which KotoR I and II would have you believing otherwise .

 

Actually, Revan's final fall is one thing I found particularly in-character for him, and realistic in a sense. He had at this point been in a three hundred year mental conflict with Vitiate, in which they'd both probed each other for secrets; the Emperor has more than a few dark ones hidden away. It is of no surprise that having gone against the Emperor whilst at the peak of his own power if not physical prime, armed with his most powerful ally and failed so abysmally, losing his ally and friend in the process, that Revan might resort to whatever options he felt were left. The Foundry and the darkside were that option. It is also incredibly suitable that Revan might fail to see past his own options, or seek the help from the Council in the matter; they'd rarely helped him in the past and he had a tendency to go off alone to fight his battles.

 

Revan was so powerful he allowed people weaker than him to lock him up till Meetra found him and he ultimately saved her life only to allow her to die and get himself locked up for 300 years..........................that is a joke .

 

Revan was still missing large portions of his memory and power during his first imprisonment, it was only when the Exile found him and he was giving back his mask, that his knowledge and thus power was returned to him. He probably was weaker than Scourge and Nyriss until being 'reborn'.

He wasn't really in a position to stop the Exile dying, although honestly had their places been reversed during the saber throw incident I doubt he wouldn't have sacrificed her to kill the Emperor. How was he supposed to stop being locked up again? Hell, the fact he not only kept information from Vitiate's mental probing, but also managed to instil enough fear within the Emperor to delay the war 300 years, is incredibly impressive.

 

If Revan was so powerful and Meetra was too , plus Scourage...............I mean what a Joke if the JK comes along and kills the Emperor Solo . THAT WOULD MAKE THE JK more powerful than Revan . Which is not so bad really .

 

The Jedi Knight isn't necessarily more powerful than Revan, Meetra or Surik in the Force. What he excels at is light saber combat, which also happens to be the Emperor's weakest combat skill. Given the Jedi Knight was made immune to the Emperor's mind control in a fashion neither Kira (who had blocked out the Emperor before) or Scourge could replicate, he was the perfect candidate to enter into that fight. All he need do was get in close against Vitiate and prevent the latter using any potent Force abilities. It was the will of the Force that the Hero of Tython defeat the Emperor, as foresaw in the vision 300 years earlier.

[Aurbere]

See, Wolf, I told you I would have to return to the dark days.

 

Apparently experiencing a moment of Oneness makes you OMG-powerful. Why no praise for Barriss Offee? She had it twice.

 

Tactical genius? I think not. During the Mandalorian Wars, Revan uses Mandalorian tactics in combination with Jedi and superior numbers to defeat the Mandalorians. Then during the Jedi Civil War he uses Ulic Qel Droma's tactic of raiding Foerost to steal the majority of the Republic navy. He also had the unlimited resources of the Star Forge, better ships, better troops, and superior numbers. Given these odds, you'd think he would have taken the Republic down easy? Nope. The war goes on for two years before Revan is captured. Considering his renown as a tactical genius, I think the praise is undeserved.

 

Also, there is no evidence of Revan being a master duelist. We have two actual instances of him engaging in one-on-one combat with a duelist of any sort of fame (Darth Malak). Revan has always been stated as the superior Force user to Darth Malak, so I don't see that as anything noteworthy.

 

Revan's fight with the Sith Emperor was also not really something in his favor. He is nearly killed twice and only manages two knockbacks, despite his moment of Oneness.

[TalonVII]

See, Wolf, I told you I would have to return to the dark days.

 

Apparently experiencing a moment of Oneness makes you OMG-powerful. Why no praise for Barriss Offee? She had it twice.

 

Tactical genius? I think not. During the Mandalorian Wars, Revan uses Mandalorian tactics in combination with Jedi and superior numbers to defeat the Mandalorians. Then during the Jedi Civil War he uses Ulic Qel Droma's tactic of raiding Foerost to steal the majority of the Republic navy. He also had the unlimited resources of the Star Forge, better ships, better troops, and superior numbers. Given these odds, you'd think he would have taken the Republic down easy? Nope. The war goes on for two years before Revan is captured. Considering his renown as a tactical genius, I think the praise is undeserved.

 

Also, there is no evidence of Revan being a master duelist. We have two actual instances of him engaging in one-on-one combat with a duelist of any sort of fame (Darth Malak). Revan has always been stated as the superior Force user to Darth Malak, so I don't see that as anything noteworthy.

 

Revan's fight with the Sith Emperor was also not really something in his favor. He is nearly killed twice and only manages two knockbacks, despite his moment of Oneness.

 

Then why did he not just obliterate the Republic Autbere? I mean he could have? Why pick certain targets and leave others alone.

 

I'm not saying he was the most brilliant strategist ever to live. But to even employ somebodies tactics on somebody else and EXECUTE them correctly, gotta have some semblance of strategic thinking and being able to take advantage of those advantages. You could have the biggest fleet in the galaxy and still lose because you don't know what in the name of hell you are doing with it.

 

I don't think he was the best ever at anything, but neither was he weak. And sure Bariss Offee had that Oneness with the force twice. She couldn't even fathom because she had neither the wisdom or training to know what the hell to do with it.

 

Far as saber combat, I'd rate him equal to Anakin Skywalker. I don't think Revan is the best per say, but neither is he a slouch.

 

Sorry aurbere, You paint him as barely holding a candle to strong sith/jedi. I think he's up there, but not exactly Biggest and baddest of all time.

[Aurbere]

Then why did he not just obliterate the Republic Autbere? I mean he could have? Why pick certain targets and leave others alone.

 

No idea. The fact is that the odds were set in his favor by a huge amount, and it would have taken more than two years for him to finally defeat the Republic.

 

And don't say the Republic was stronger than I think. Because they weren't.

 

I'm not saying he was the most brilliant strategist ever to live. But to even employ somebodies tactics on somebody else and EXECUTE them correctly, gotta have some semblance of strategic thinking and being able to take advantage of those advantages. You could have the biggest fleet in the galaxy and still lose because you don't know what in the name of hell you are doing with it.

 

Revan also had his own generals like Alek, Surik, and Karath that gained the majority of his victories during the Mandalorian Wars. The only thing I will credit him with is the Malachor trap. Simply using someone else's tactics isn't good enough for me.

 

Far as saber combat, I'd rate him equal to Anakin Skywalker. I don't think Revan is the best per say, but neither is he a slouch.

 

The only evidence we have of him being a capable duelist is his duels with Malak. Revan has always been depicted as Malak's superior.

 

Sorry aurbere, You paint him as barely holding a candle to strong sith/jedi. I think he's up there, but not exactly Biggest and baddest of all time.

 

Is that how it looks? Apologies, then. I'd be more than willing to accept him being that powerful, but there really isn't enough evidence for me to believe that he is.

[Beniboybling]

See, Wolf, I told you I would have to return to the dark days.

 

Apparently experiencing a moment of Oneness makes you OMG-powerful. Why no praise for Barriss Offee? She had it twice.

Because Bariss injected herself with Bota, which increased her connection to the Force. Indeed achieving a moment of Oneness points to nothing other than an exceptionally strong connection with the Force. Especially given the fact the Revan was able to channel it purposely into an attack. Now this is not to say the this means it makes him 'OMG-powerful'. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that, but it does point an a exceptional power in the Force.

 

The problem with this debate here is that people insist on seeing it as two sides of a coin, you must either totally refute that Revan is a master strategist, super powerful etc. or you must believe he is some kind of demi-god. And therefore people assume that if you lean to either side this is what you believe, and therefore make assumptions as to your argument and standpoint. But I see no reason why we can't have an objective discussion, look at the facts, and reach a conclusion.

 

There is no reason why we should go out of our way to refute each and every one of Revan's feats.

Tactical genius? I think not. During the Mandalorian Wars, Revan uses Mandalorian tactics in combination with Jedi and superior numbers to defeat the Mandalorians. Then during the Jedi Civil War he uses Ulic Qel Droma's tactic of raiding Foerost to steal the majority of the Republic navy. He also had the unlimited resources of the Star Forge, better ships, better troops, and superior numbers. Given these odds, you'd think he would have taken the Republic down easy? Nope. The war goes on for two years before Revan is captured. Considering his renown as a tactical genius, I think the praise is undeserved.

Why do we assume that because Revan used an enemies tactics against them, it means he is a lesser tactician? Was the tactic highly effective? Yes. Does that make him a highly effecitve tactician? Yes. Are we to reject the entirety of Revan's tactical feats during the Jedi Civil War because on one occasion he replicated the tactics of another, and had large numbers, despite the fact that numbers have nothing to do with the tactics being put forward as highly effective? Most certainly and definitely no, to do so is illogical.

 

Its important that we consider where praise is being given here, I am praising Revan was his astute intellect, which drove him to convert rather than destroy the Republic, which has no relevance to numbers, or the raid of Foerost. Using it as an argument is therefore obsolete.

Revan's fight with the Sith Emperor was also not really something in his favor. He is nearly killed twice and only manages two knockbacks, despite his moment of Oneness.

I don't believe anyone said it was.

 

Personally I think we need to stop saying what Revan isn't and start saying what Revan is. Else we'll find ourselves entering a mindset were all feats performed by Revan need to be refuted and undermined. Such a deconstructive approach will get us nowhere.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[TalonVII]

No idea. The fact is that the odds were set in his favor by a huge amount, and it would have taken more than two years for him to finally defeat the Republic.

Aurbere think back to converations with G0-T0 when the droid talks about the wounds of the Republic. He depicts what Revan was doing by striking certain areas but leaving certain areas alone. The fact he was only destroying what he needed to so he could quickly rebuild for something else.

 

Well..what do you think that something else is that showed up 300 years later? You gotta wonder what would of happened had Revan actually completed his conquest.

[Aurbere]

Personally I think we need to stop saying what Revan isn't and start saying what Revan is. Else we'll find ourselves entering a mindset were all feats performed by Revan need to be refuted and undermined. Such a deconstructive approach will get us nowhere.

 

Alright fine, let's work with that based on the facts.

 

One of the best lightsaber duelists of his time due to his superiority to Darth Malak, who was considered to be one of the best duelists.

 

One of the most powerful Jedi of his time due to his ability to stand before the Sith Emperor and not get immediately WTFpwned. I would just like to point out that I said "one of the best." There are more powerful Jedi in that era than Revan.

 

A more than capable tactician. He was able to defeat the Mandalorians, but I don't give him props for the Jedi Civil War.

 

Is that good? I'm not about to call him 'master of the Force' because we know what it takes to master the Force, and Revan doesn't have it.

[Aurbere]

Well..what do you think that something else is that showed up 300 years later? You gotta wonder what would of happened had Revan actually completed his conquest.

 

He wouldn't have been alive by the time the Sith returned, but if his successors kept Revan's Empire alive, then the odds would be stacked in their favor, especially if Revan told people about the Sith.

 

I mean, they had the Star Forge. Probably would have had the Foundry too.

[sell-dog]

Then why did he not just obliterate the Republic Autbere? I mean he could have? Why pick certain targets and leave others alone.

 

I thought the reason why Revan left certain facilities untouched was because he wanted to take over the Republic but then immediately prep them for the oncoming war with the Sith Empire?

[TalonVII]

I thought the reason why Revan left certain facilities untouched was because he wanted to take over the Republic but then immediately prep them for the oncoming war with the Sith Empire?

 

EXACTLY. That is exactly right. And shows a calculating and cunning mind and a mark of a superior strategist.

[TalonVII]

He wouldn't have been alive by the time the Sith returned, but if his successors kept Revan's Empire alive, then the odds would be stacked in their favor, especially if Revan told people about the Sith.

 

I mean, they had the Star Forge. Probably would have had the Foundry too.

 

That or before his lifetime ended he could of built a fleet with the republic AND the star forge, turned right around and beat down the sith empire before they could of done a thing.

 

Which IMO is what I think he was angling for.

[Aurbere]

EXACTLY. That is exactly right. And shows a calculating and cunning mind and a mark of a superior strategist.

 

Guess that makes Palpatine a tactical genius as well.

 

That or before his lifetime ended he could of built a fleet with the republic AND the star forge, turned right around and beat down the sith empire before they could of done a thing.

 

Which IMO is what I think he was angling for.

 

That's what I would do.