stealth, sap, seethe

[HexDecimalUK]

I guess what bugs me is, if an assassin can sap and use their out of combat heal, why shouldn't I be able to use my six second mez and heal? This is a pretty easy fix. Being in combat does not break stealth, but it does prevent re stealthing and out of combat healing via seethe or similar abilities. The solution then, is simple: casting sap should put the caster in combat with the normal rate of decay, but only damage will pop them out of stealth. I can't see how anyone could argue with this solution.

 

As long as it only worked against players, stealthers still need to move between mobs and stuff.

[Romonov]

This is a very old subject dating back to my days of wow. Pvp 101 is you save your cc break for sap. If you don't, you lose. I agree with you that it is cheap but that is the way it is and its not going to change anytime soon. Also, if you are dueling a stealth class you have set yourself up for dissapointment. They have the tactical advantage from the very beginning. You've basically agreed to let someone smash you in the back of the head with a frying pan before the fight even starts.

[Aelaias]

That is another aspect of the obscenity that are stealth classes in the game helped by the ridiculous bolster situation. It has a pretty nasty effect against non-stealth node guards in non-ranked due to some players' ability to maintain stunlock without filling up resolve to a point where one is forced to use the stun break or lose the encounter outright. The fix in my opinion is simple:

 

INCREASE STUN AND MEZ CONTRIBUTION TO RESOLVE FOR FASTER ACTIVATION OF IMMUNITY.

[Aluvi]

This is a very old subject dating back to my days of wow. Pvp 101 is you save your cc break for sap. If you don't, you lose. I agree with you that it is cheap but that is the way it is and its not going to change anytime soon. Also, if you are dueling a stealth class you have set yourself up for dissapointment. They have the tactical advantage from the very beginning. You've basically agreed to let someone smash you in the back of the head with a frying pan before the fight even starts.

 

I dont think comparing assassin to rogue is really a fair comparison. The fact is, if you let an assassin have free reign and dont pop trinket to stop the stun chain, you will die before they even need to heal. What you are implying then is that assassins in general need a nerf, which I dont believe is the case. Also, stunlock rogues in wow dint have anywhere near the burst that assassins do. As someone who really enjoys participating in dueling and arena type events, I would really like to see.some dev consideration.

[HexDecimalUK]

That is another aspect of the obscenity that are stealth classes in the game helped by the ridiculous bolster situation. It has a pretty nasty effect against non-stealth node guards in non-ranked due to some players' ability to maintain stunlock without filling up resolve to a point where one is forced to use the stun break or lose the encounter outright. The fix in my opinion is simple:

 

INCREASE STUN AND MEZ CONTRIBUTION TO RESOLVE FOR FASTER ACTIVATION OF IMMUNITY.

 

could work

[Vaerah]

low slash, sap, seethe, get own re reinforcements, win. ive seen it many times, and countless others where i have found one in my EZ in hut ball for example and only i could take him out, almost winning the fight but oh no, the little combo and they are full health to demolish me before going into regular steath and inevitably catch the ball, between objectives, while defending and attacking nodes they can heal before killing me if they are going to loose.

 

If they are tank spec they are not going to obliterate you. The difference vs other tanks is that the others will punt you away and bring up whatever shields etc and then kill you, while the tank stealther will flee and eventually come back to kill you.

 

If they are DPS spec then they are squishiest class in game, you are meant to CC and kill them before they use "tricks".

Also, if you are decently quick, you'll unstealth them 80% of the time with an AoE.

If your CC breaker is on cooldown, though luck. They are completely cooldown based classes, you have to catch *them* with their pants (CDs) down.

[JP_Legatus]

could work

 

I would be in total favor of this, but this isn't even true. This idea that somehow you are stunlocked for 10s before dying isn't remotely feasible.

As I've said, spike lasts 2s and low slash breaks on damage. After each move you get one free attack. After using electrocute, you get 2 free attacks assuming it wasn't broken. Even if the move following that attack was a stun, there is time for the opponent to react in between.

 

I'm sorry but that is the reality. All the people saying they were stunlocked until dead are lying. They had a chance to do something, they didn't do it, and they died.

 

Aside from that obvious lie I keep seeing all the time, I would be more than happy to see resolve bar get shortened.

Edited June 5, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Keese]

Haha people calling this TACTIC an exploit are just butthurt that they had it happen to them in a WZ. As far as being used in a Duel yea kind lame but what can you do? Its not an exploit its a valid game mechanic. Kinda like when I played that other MMO that shalt not be named here.

 

Being a stealth class and poppin the vanish and then sapping mid fight and then pop out of stealth and bandage/eat-drink to regain health

[Helig]

Haha people calling this TACTIC an exploit are just butthurt that they had it happen to them in a WZ. As far as being used in a Duel yea kind lame but what can you do? Its not an exploit its a valid game mechanic. Kinda like when I played that other MMO that shalt not be named here.

 

Being a stealth class and poppin the vanish and then sapping mid fight and then pop out of stealth and bandage/eat-drink to regain health

Yeah. Stacking Adrenals and Relics before 1.2 for subsequent 4-6k attacks by Operatives in a stunlock sequence, or 9-11k Smashes on 14kHP targets was also a TACTIC. Obviously people who died in 1 stunlock and complained about it were just butthurt, amirite?

Edited June 5, 2013 by Helig

[Keese]

Yeah. Stacking Adrenals and Relics before 1.2 for subsequent 4-6k attacks by Operatives in a stunlock sequence, or 9-11k Smashes on 14kHP targets was also a TACTIC. Obviously people who died in 1 stunlock and complained about it were just butthurt, amirite?

 

People can STILL die in one stun lock cycle and smash STILL hits like a mac truck so whats your point? And as far as the Relics and Adrenals thing goes, BW decided in thier own wisdom to ALLOW those item pre-1.2 so whats the problem? If Bioware decides that Combat-dump+Seethe ect ect are not in the spirit of the game then they can remove that from WZs as well. I dont see why they would though. Cause they'd have to recode the Class Regen abilities to unusable in WZs in a way that doesnt break it in PvE/World PvP.

[Helig]

People can STILL die in one stun lock cycle and smash STILL hits like a mac truck so whats your point? And as far as the Relics and Adrenals thing goes, BW decided in thier own wisdom to ALLOW those item pre-1.2 so whats the problem? If Bioware decides that Combat-dump+Seethe ect ect are not in the spirit of the game then they can remove that from WZs as well. I dont see why they would though. Cause they'd have to recode the Class Regen abilities to unusable in WZs in a way that doesnt break it in PvE/World PvP.

People don't die in 1 stunlock unless they're undergeared. Smash hits for 8-9k on geared targets - except now people have 30+kHP, not 14.

 

And no, my main concern *is* world PvP and not warzones and duels. A solution is simple. Vanish should not instantly drop PvP combat. You still get to break focus fire, you still get to escape (the fact that you're in combat allows you to maintain stealth), you still get to reopen. You just don't get to reset the fight in a 1-sided manner, that's all.

[Altheran]

People can STILL die in one stun lock cycle and smash STILL hits like a mac truck so whats your point?

 

His point (sorry to intrude) is that it's not because that it is allowed by game mechanics and hence can be called a "tactic", that it is normal and has to remain allowed.

 

This is the reasons he wrote about the insane burst from early days of the game... it was allowed, and now, it's not allowed anymore. It was a tactic, but one-sided, without flaws and escape possible.

 

PS : or perhaps I misunderstood.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Altheran

[Aelaias]

I would be in total favor of this, but this isn't even true. This idea that somehow you are stunlocked for 10s before dying isn't remotely feasible.

As I've said, spike lasts 2s and low slash breaks on damage. After each move you get one free attack. After using electrocute, you get 2 free attacks assuming it wasn't broken. Even if the move following that attack was a stun, there is time for the opponent to react in between.

 

I'm sorry but that is the reality. All the people saying they were stunlocked until dead are lying. They had a chance to do something, they didn't do it, and they died.

 

Aside from that obvious lie I keep seeing all the time, I would be more than happy to see resolve bar get shortened.

 

Operative types can do it easily. Assassins can open with a 2 second stun, follow that up with low slash to allow resolve to drain a bit, then proceed to a 4 second stun. Frankly, even chaining 2 stuns wouldn't cap resolve. Even not counting low slash the stuns can give you 3 gcds worth of a head start, 4 attacks with the low slash. If in fact you have an issue gaining a large advantage when attacking from stealth, the issue is with you. Assassins don't have as much cc as ops but they have enough.

 

An alternative to a resolve adjustment could be turning vanish from a full stealth skill to a timed 4 second buff like marauder version.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Aelaias

[Keese]

People don't die in 1 stunlock unless they're undergeared. Smash hits for 8-9k on geared targets - except now people have 30+kHP, not 14.

 

And no, my main concern *is* world PvP and not warzones and duels. A solution is simple. Vanish should not instantly drop PvP combat. You still get to break focus fire, you still get to escape (the fact that you're in combat allows you to maintain stealth), you still get to reopen. You just don't get to reset the fight in a 1-sided manner, that's all.

 

I dont see how Combat-dump+seethe can really be an issue in World PvP. If your out just fightin 1v1 or in a group most people only roll in groups of 2 to have thier companions out. Wheres you're healing companion or your DPS companion? Even large player raid groups in World PvP usually only run in groups of 2 to take advantage of having extra heals or dps in the form of a companion and have access to thier Heroic Moments and skills that become active during Heroic Moment.

 

I know when Im out doing dailys on my Server ( Jung Ma PvP-RP Server ) I always save Heroic Moment for when I get jumped by that single or 2 man group of players that are running around ganking.

[Helig]

His point (sorry to intrude) is that it's not because that it is allowed by game mechanics and hence can be called a "tactic", that it is normal and has to remain allowed.

 

This is the reasons he wrote about the insane burst from early days of the game... it was allowed, and now, it's not allowed anymore. It was a tactic, but one-sided, without flaws and escape possible.

Yup. Was exactly the point.

[Aluvi]

The players defending sap heal are missing the point. It's not that an assassin can stunlock you until dead, it's that they can stun you and put out enough damage during those stuns, that combined with a full heal when they get low, makes the fight unwinnable for the other class. Now I dont think that assassin stuns or damage output is overpowered. I think they are in a pretty balanced spot right now. But the fact that they get what basically amounts to a second life, and then get to initiate the fight all over again with full energy from stealth, you can't deny that that is overpowered. Again, the solution is simple: sap like abilities used from stealth should initiate combat, and combat should then drop off after normal decay.

[JP_Legatus]

The players defending sap heal are missing the point. It's not that an assassin can stunlock you until dead, it's that they can stun you and put out enough damage during those stuns, that combined with a full heal when they get low, makes the fight unwinnable for the other class. Now I dont think that assassin stuns or damage output is overpowered. I think they are in a pretty balanced spot right now. But the fact that they get what basically amounts to a second life, and then get to initiate the fight all over again with full energy from stealth, you can't deny that that is overpowered. Again, the solution is simple: sap like abilities used from stealth should initiate combat, and combat should then drop off after normal decay.

 

None of us are missing the point, what you're missing is that it isn't true. After each spike and after each low slash comes 1 hit, as soon as that hit makes contact you are able to do something for 1 global. You can do whatever you want - knockback, counterstun, defensive cooldowns, force speed away, or you can choose to do none of these and use your big attack. You aren't stunlocked.

As far as sap seethe goes, don't breaker the electrocute. It's quite simple really.

Honestly I think snipers are far more broken than sins with the roll they just got in addition to their stealthsee and entrench and the operative rolling which allows them to cap civil war before a merc/pt/jugg can intercept. They can get to a huttball before a jugg can intercept with leap. That actually WINS warzones by itself. How many sap seethe's have won warzones?

Edited June 6, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[foxmob]

Being a stealth class and poppin the vanish and then sapping mid fight and then pop out of stealth and bandage/eat-drink to regain health

you don't need to be out of combat to bandage. it just stops on dmg (dots), but said dots also put you back into combat. I only mention this because I've seen other ppl talk about bandaging after breaking combat in this and other threads. when you're out of combat, there's absolutely no reason to bandage. it's just eat/drink (i.e., out of combat heal).