Darth_Dreselus Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 In my recent 16 HM TFB run I have noticed I was having issues with threat, particularly on P1 of Terror (which has always been difficult on snap threat). Losing threat is fairly dangerous as the tentacles hit rather hard in 16, one time I saw all 7 members of my group dropping to around half health even though I only lost threat for one attack (taunted immediately but it still got the attack off). Strangely enough when the raid was an 8 man with the same DPS that were the most common threat thieves, there were no issues. I used to have threat issues on my Jugg in Vanilla (who didn't) and pretty much mastered my opener there to the point that in Cartel I can generally go without a taunt for most fights (I test myself on fights where short aggro loss is not too dangerous). As threat was easy on VGs I never did get a good snap threat rotation down. Some of the issue is down to gear discrepancy as I am currently upgrading (about half 69 now, rest 63, 1-2 72 pieces) and only have Vanilla augments so a fair amount of Aim and Power will be added. The DPS are BiS or very nearly BiS with 1-2 pieces missing. My standard opener is: Harpoon-(Battle Focus)-Storm-Stockstrike-HIB-Ion Pulse-Mortar Volley with Pulse Cannon (both with and without proc) and Explosive Surge according to ammo, Energy Blast when available. I will often use Shoulder Cannon when having problems with threat but I try saving it for the heals when needed or it is about to run out. Taunt discipline on the tentacles is taunt after Stockstrike, AoE taunt with 7-9s left on taunt's cd and then taunt off cd. Third taunt for good measure again off cd (4 taunts in total). The problem I was having was losing threat after the second ST taunt (3rd overall) with no taunts available. I then changed my strategy to only go with my first and AoE taunts and wait with the third until someone actually stole threat. While it did lower my threat generation it was the lesser of two evils. Any tips on improving VG snap threat are welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfire Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) While I am no expert on VG/PT for the tentacles you can improve your threat by going to 4 meters or farther from the center of them and taunting. Other things you can do is delay your first ST taunt as long as possible without losing aggro, which will give you more threat if it builds on the dps threat instead of yours. Edited June 3, 2013 by Panzerfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Skip the harpoon as that is wasting a global cooldown, it generates less threat then a flameburst. An easy mistake to make considering the assassin pull is very good for threat generation, and harpoon has a deceptive tool-tip. Try to storm to the tentacle and get in your position asap to try to beat the dps to the punch, pop your battle focus and immediately fire off your stockstrike and high impact bolt. If you were quick enough you should get a stockstrike proc to use again. After that use your pulse cannon, even if it hasn't proc'd (you have the opportunity to get two pulse cannons off if it hasn't). Mortar Volley is worth a mention, especially if you have battle focus up, it hits pretty hard on a single target. A taunt boost would be wise before moving into your channeled abilities to make sure you can get them off without loosing threat, so you don't have to break the channel to re-taunt. By the looks of it your doing pretty much this anyway, so it could be down to the fact that your dps are too close to you in threat, as they are not giving you a chance to lead in with your storm and / or popping adrenals, relics and class cooldowns right off the bat, or not using their threat drops. A pre cast flyby from a gunslinger is going to be a good culprit. Edited June 3, 2013 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Skip the harpoon as that is wasting a global cooldown, it generates less threat then a flameburst. An easy mistake to make considering the assassin pull is very good for threat generation, and harpoon has a deceptive tool-tip. Harpoon generates the same amount of threat as the assassin Pull: 8592. That's quite a bit more threat than any other unproc'd instant in the Vanguard rotation, and definitely worth hitting. To the OP, given that you're not seeing these issues in 8 man, I'm almost certain the problem is lag. Try tuning down your graphics settings just a bit. You can get an idea of whether or not this is the problem by looking at your APM between 8 man and 16 man. I would open up with Shoulder Cannon if I were you. Losing the healing is annoying, but you need the snap threat. I would also save your first taunt until after your HiB, rather than popping it right after the Stockstrike. Finally, you should be able to burn really, really hard early on because of Recharge Cells (which I didn't see you mention) and the double explosive surge. Weave in ES to delay the burnout, but you should be going full-out "I hate my ammo" mode until you hit the 40 ammo mark, at which point you can recharge and go into a more sustainable rotation. Vanguards have it a bit tough since they don't get any cool threat multipliers on their abilities. Their abilities do hit very hard, so that helps somewhat, but still. As a vanguard, really the only way to match the snap threat of the other two tanks is to completely destroy your ammo pool in the first 15-20 seconds and then recharge it all back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Taunting beyond the 130% threshold is a given, in fact thee threshold is just above 2m, the target circle is a good indicator on this fight. Not using Harpoon is an interesting idea, I do believe it is only 2-3k threat (will test). Getting second Stockstrike is sadly entirely down to RNG (I guess I could increase my chances by popping Shield relic but that seems a waste of cd). But yes, not having any breathing room maybe the main issue, Flyby was always pre cast and I'm pretty sure the HIB-SS-HIB of the Assault VG was pretty heavy on threat. hopefully just matching my gear levels to theirs will sort it out. If not I will have to hide my tail between my legs and ask for a few seconds to build threat. Harpoon generates the same amount of threat as the assassin Pull: 8592. That's quite a bit more threat than any other unproc'd instant in the Vanguard rotation, and definitely worth hitting. To the OP, given that you're not seeing these issues in 8 man, I'm almost certain the problem is lag. Try tuning down your graphics settings just a bit. You can get an idea of whether or not this is the problem by looking at your APM between 8 man and 16 man. I would open up with Shoulder Cannon if I were you. Losing the healing is annoying, but you need the snap threat. I would also save your first taunt until after your HiB, rather than popping it right after the Stockstrike. Finally, you should be able to burn really, really hard early on because of Recharge Cells (which I didn't see you mention) and the double explosive surge. Weave in ES to delay the burnout, but you should be going full-out "I hate my ammo" mode until you hit the 40 ammo mark, at which point you can recharge and go into a more sustainable rotation. Vanguards have it a bit tough since they don't get any cool threat multipliers on their abilities. Their abilities do hit very hard, so that helps somewhat, but still. As a vanguard, really the only way to match the snap threat of the other two tanks is to completely destroy your ammo pool in the first 15-20 seconds and then recharge it all back. I'm just gonna go test the Harpoon now. And no I don't think I have touched recharge/reserve cells in my opener ever, burning through it with Ion Pulses should work pretty well. The taunt is usually hit at the same time as the HIB so due to lag it may not get threat from the HIB so I can move it a bit (while the GCD from HIB is up). Edited June 3, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Yep, 2784 as I thought. 18:51:59.721 Toughen enters combat. 18:51:59.770 Toughen activates Harpoon. 18:51:59.771 Toughen loses Sprint. 18:51:59.780 Toughen's Harpoon causes 2784 threat gain on Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:52:10.246 Toughen leaves combat. 18:52:10.253 Toughen gains Sprint. I'm having problems uploading a sample of the rotation so here is a copy of the log from torparser client. Without Harpoon and may have stood too close for one of the taunts, hard to tell on the Dummy. 18:55:52.141 You enter combat. 18:55:52.189 You activate Storm. 18:55:52.189 You gain Static Surge. 18:55:52.190 You lose Sprint. 18:55:53.300 Your Storm hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1191* kinetic damage (2382)! 18:55:53.857 You activate Stockstrike. 18:55:53.857 You spend 16 energy. 18:55:53.857 Your Ion Overload adds effect Shocked (Tech) to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:55:53.858 You gain Power Screen. 18:55:53.859 Your Ion Cell hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 269* energy damage (539)! 18:55:54.255 Your Stockstrike hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 2075* kinetic damage (4150)! 18:55:55.329 You activate High Impact Bolt. 18:55:55.330 You spend 16 energy. 18:55:55.453 Your Ion Cell hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 178 energy damage (357). 18:55:55.692 Your High Impact Bolt hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1661 energy damage (3323). 18:55:56.485 You activate Neural Jolt. 18:55:56.953 Your Neural Jolt adds effect Taunt to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:55:56.954 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:55:56.954 You spend 16 energy. 18:55:56.954 Your Static Field adds effect Static Field (Tech) to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:55:56.964 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5, causing 3230 threat. 18:55:57.165 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1848* elemental damage (3697)! 18:55:58.528 Your Shocked (Tech) hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 158* energy damage (1266)! 18:55:58.528 You activate Explosive Surge. 18:55:58.529 You gain Pulse Engine. 18:55:58.531 Your Explosive Surge hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1475* elemental damage (3394)! 18:56:00.145 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:56:00.145 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:00.353 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 0 damage (1). 18:56:01.543 Your Shocked (Tech) hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 104 energy damage (839). 18:56:01.544 Your Ion Overload effect of Shocked (Tech) fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:01.646 You activate Pulse Cannon. 18:56:01.663 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1230* elemental damage (2460)! 18:56:02.248 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 814 elemental damage (1629). 18:56:02.641 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 814 elemental damage (1629). 18:56:03.028 Your Neural Jolt effect of Taunt fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:03.132 You lose Pulse Engine. 18:56:03.138 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 814 elemental damage (1629). 18:56:03.734 You activate Sonic Round. 18:56:03.936 Your Sonic Round adds effect Taunt to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:03.985 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5, causing 3058 threat. 18:56:04.130 You activate Stockstrike. 18:56:04.130 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:04.572 Your Stockstrike hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 0 damage (1). 18:56:05.633 You activate Explosive Surge. 18:56:05.633 You lose Static Surge. 18:56:05.635 Your Explosive Surge hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1399* elemental damage (3218)! 18:56:06.662 You lose Soldier's Grit. 18:56:06.662 You lose Battle Focus. 18:56:07.154 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:56:07.154 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:07.389 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1185 elemental damage (2371). 18:56:08.692 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:56:08.692 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:08.961 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1178 elemental damage (2356). 18:56:10.067 Your Sonic Round effect of Taunt fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:10.280 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:56:10.280 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:10.523 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1186 elemental damage (2372). 18:56:11.887 You activate Ion Pulse. 18:56:11.887 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:12.121 Your Ion Pulse hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1196 elemental damage (2392). 18:56:14.002 You activate Stockstrike. 18:56:14.002 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:14.002 Your Ion Overload adds effect Shocked (Tech) to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:14.004 Your Ion Cell hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 269* energy damage (539)! 18:56:14.426 Your Stockstrike hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1355 kinetic damage (2710). 18:56:14.696 You activate Neural Jolt. 18:56:15.091 Your Neural Jolt adds effect Taunt to Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:15.281 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5, causing 14883 threat. 18:56:15.409 You activate High Impact Bolt. 18:56:15.409 You spend 16 energy. 18:56:15.533 Your Ion Cell hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 178 energy damage (357). 18:56:15.820 Your High Impact Bolt hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1514 energy damage (3029). 18:56:17.308 You activate Mortar Volley. 18:56:17.308 You spend 25 energy. 18:56:18.368 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 0 damage (1). 18:56:18.553 Your Shocked (Tech) hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 104 energy damage (839). 18:56:18.649 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 0 damage (1). 18:56:19.219 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 537 kinetic damage (1075). 18:56:20.078 You gain Pulse Engine. 18:56:20.080 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 553 kinetic damage (1106). 18:56:20.150 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 520 kinetic damage (1040). 18:56:20.473 You activate Energy Blast. 18:56:20.474 You lose Power Screen. 18:56:20.474 You gain Energy Blast. 18:56:20.474 You gain 8 energy. 18:56:20.645 Your Mortar Volley hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 556 kinetic damage (1112). 18:56:21.033 Your Energy Blast hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1054 elemental damage (2109). 18:56:21.547 Your Neural Jolt effect of Taunt fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:21.893 Your Shocked (Tech) hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 158* energy damage (1266)! 18:56:21.894 Your Ion Overload effect of Shocked (Tech) fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:22.672 Your Static Field effect of Static Field (Tech) fades from Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:56:23.182 You activate Pulse Cannon. 18:56:23.213 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 814 elemental damage (1629). 18:56:23.850 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1230* elemental damage (2460)! 18:56:24.251 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 1230* elemental damage (2460)! 18:56:24.726 You lose Pulse Engine. 18:56:24.750 Your Pulse Cannon hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 814 elemental damage (1629). 18:56:26.805 You lose Energy Blast. 18:56:30.522 You exit combat. Threat: 84538 TPS: 2202.6 Edited June 3, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Yep, 2784 as I thought. 18:51:59.721 Toughen enters combat. 18:51:59.770 Toughen activates Harpoon. 18:51:59.771 Toughen loses Sprint. 18:51:59.780 Toughen's Harpoon causes 2784 threat gain on Operations Training Target MK-5. 18:52:10.246 Toughen leaves combat. 18:52:10.253 Toughen gains Sprint. That's unbelievably strange. Harpoon has a threat modifier of 1.6 * <std health>, which is exactly the same as Force Pull (which verifiably generates 8592 threat). It appears that there is a bug here. I assume you tested this in Ion Cell? If it really isn't generating threat as it should, then you should definitely cut it from your opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGNMTTRN Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I can confirm, Harpoon on Vanguards generates 2784 threat in tank stance, on dummies and on live. It probably has to do with the Harpoon being a "gap-closer"; devs may have wanted DPS Vanguards to not have ~9k threat on an enemy when initiating combat. Compare to your Ion Pulse, which if you hit your +25% crit buff will have about a 50% chance to crit, and does 2k crit damage (4000 threat), or 1.3k non-crit damage (2600 threat). Despite Storm being an active attack, it does look like it uses your Tech crit rate. And despite Storm being the Vanguard equivalent of Force Pull (the tank tree mobility/physics/control booster), Storm only gets the standard 2x threat multiplier. If it does ~800 kinetic damage normally, or 1200 damage when you have your crit buff up, that's only 1600 to 2400 threat. So as a Vanguard, you effectively have 0 high-threat attacks; Harpoon doesn't generate a high amount of threat, and your first Ion Cell DOT tick only hits for the normal 2x threat; only the last two ticks of your Ion Cell tick for 8x threat, and they are tiny ticks so they end up generating an additional ~1000 threat each. The other problem is the game encourages you to renew your Ion Cell DOT with HIB, Stockstrike, and hammershot in order to reduce your Energy Blast cooldown; renewing the DOT prevents the last two ticks of Ion Cell from doing damage, and therefore prevents you from getting that 8x threat. While we're on the subject, Vanguards also have the worst AOE snap threat. Shadows get Slow time and Breach, Guardians get smash and sunder. Shadows also get AOE threat from self-healing, and Guardians also get AOE threat from Saber Reflect. All of these attacks generate threat immediately. Whereas as a Vanguard, you can throw our a sticky grenade (initiates combat but does delayed damage), Storm in and Pulse Cannon (unprocced, so 3000 damage over 3 seconds, conal so it cannot hit enemies all around you, roots you), Mortar Volley (good, but on a 1 min cd), or Storm, Stockstrike, HIB, and then wait an additional 3 seconds before your Ion Cell DOT starts generating 2k threat over the next 3 seconds. As I understand it, Explosive Surge is the mirror of Cyclone Slash or Whirling Blow (weak aoe centered on self), and though wasteful, that's typically what I end up using. But keeping aggro as a Vanguard is totally doable, even without your +25% crit buff. My rotation looks like <generate base threat, taunt 9 seconds in, aoe taunt 15 seconds in, single taunt when it comes off cooldown>. If you have exceptional players who are Combat Sentinels or Sharpshooter Slingers with precasted Flybys or such, try guarding them. A know the slinger's rotation; wait until you see his second Flyby tick, and then taunt, because if you don't taunt you are sure to lose aggro. Here's a thread where I discuss Vanguard mechanics in more detail; it's heavily focused toward metrics, not threat, but if you want to know the class in depth and are not afraid of math I think it would be useful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=644609 Here's a Dash'rode video where I initiate combat: Here's a TFB HM 2.0 Kephess video where I initiate combat: Edited June 3, 2013 by MGNMTTRN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Vanguards have it a bit tough since they don't get any cool threat multipliers on their abilities. Not entirely true. The DoT damage from Ion Cell is high threat (and with a higher threat modifier than the normal "high threat"). It actually adds a fair deal of extra threat over their explicit damage and threat modifier. It's not as much as a Shadow/Guard gets, but it's not nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I have also identified another issue I completely forgot about. On the 16 there was a Gunnery Commando in my group, on the 8 there was only an Assault VG and a Slinger who may have been DF and not using Shatter Shot. The Armour debuff could have been making the difference. Edited June 3, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLongstick Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 That's unbelievably strange. Harpoon has a threat modifier of 1.6 * <std health>, which is exactly the same as Force Pull (which verifiably generates 8592 threat). It appears that there is a bug here. I assume you tested this in Ion Cell? If it really isn't generating threat as it should, then you should definitely cut it from your opener. It's been exactly 2784 on my Powertech since it hit 50 back in November. Log dated December 19th with 2784 grapple. I have also always assumed its low threat compared to Sin pull is because DPS Powertechs/Vanguards wouldn't want to drop 9k threat on an enemy just to use your utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I have also always assumed its low threat compared to Sin pull is because DPS Powertechs/Vanguards wouldn't want to drop 9k threat on an enemy just to use your utility. If that were true, one would assume that there would be a talent in the tank tree or flag on the ability itself that causes the pull to generate the appropriate amount of threat when you're in tank stance. It seems to me that it's likely an oversight/bug (kinda like Combat Technique's heal not scaling when every other aspect of it does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mc_Gregor Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) and your first Ion Cell DOT tick only hits for the normal 2x threat; only the last two ticks of your Ion Cell tick for 8x threat, and they are tiny ticks so they end up generating an additional ~1000 threat each. You are confusing two different things here. For starters here are two effects from my log: 21:03:51.978 Macgregor's Ion Gas Cylinder critically hits Dash'Roode for 291* energy damage, causing 583 threat! 21:03:54.984 Macgregor's Shocked (Tech) hits Dash'Roode for 122 energy damage, causing 980 threat. First one is direct damage dealt by default Ion Gas Cylinder, second one are DoT tics from it which we gain from talents in tank trees. All of them get a threat modifier, not only the last two ticks. Threat from those ticks if pretty substantial and amounts to about 12% of my total TPS. On topic of VG/PT snap threat- to be honest I always considered it higher than other tank classes and I am usually asked to start fights where loosing aggro at the start can lead to a wipe. Cirt boost, charge, flamesweep x2 when positioning the boss followed by rocket puch and flameburst (probably flamethrower somwhere in the middle when it procs) always does the trick. If I have really good dps with me I allow myself to overheat, then vent it and return to my normal tanking routine. Edited June 4, 2013 by Mc_Gregor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarkasms Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 As I understand it, Explosive Surge is the mirror of Cyclone Slash or Whirling Blow (weak aoe centered on self), and though wasteful, that's typically what I end up using. Explosive surge/flame sweep is actually a pretty solid threat gen, and is exceedingly useful off of the gap-closer when you get two free ones (assuming you specced it, and you usually should, imo). For AOE threat, I usually mortar volley, storm, surge, pulse cannon, grenade, surge, and stuff is manageably within my control throughout that. It's not bad on energy management, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 As I understand it, Explosive Surge is the mirror of Cyclone Slash or Whirling Blow (weak aoe centered on self), and though wasteful, that's typically what I end up using. Though, by default, Explosive Surge is the equivalent of Cyclone Slash and Whirling Blow, VGs get talents that buff Explosive Surge pretty extensively: it gets 10% increased damage and threat from Guard Cannon (which compound upon each other, causing it to generate 121% of pre-talented threat), 12% increased damage from Static Surge, and an 8% increased crit chance from Static Shield. Whirling Blow gets all of a 6% damage increase (which is why most Shadows would consider it to be functionally worthless), and Cyclone Slash gets 30% increased threat and 20% increased damage. Before 2.0, Explosive Surge was pretty much rubbish (as were Cyclone Slash and Whirling Blow) which is the reason why some people still think it's largely worthless, but it got improved substantially (along with Cyclone Slash; Whirling Blow is still rubbish). Now, it's actually a reasonably good AoE threat generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellenbec Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 The only issue though with Flame Sweep (post Jet Charge usage) is the high heat cost of it, 25 heat per use. Using it on adds that you cannot jump to, due to short range on the spawn of them/grouping up, limits the amount of Flame Sweep usage. I can only think of one or two times within the last month and a half that I have lost threat soon after the pull. Our threat gen on pull is quite high if done correctly. And really if you are having issues with gung ho dps, ask them to hold off for 3 to 6 seconds. That much time is more than enough to unload and get a solid threat lead that no one will catch up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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