ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

Dude.. The fact of the matter is that I, like many others here, were here during the beta.. I joined the Beta in July before launch.. An entire 6 months before launch..

 

This discussion came up in the beta.. I say Bioware's response to it.. Now, I am sorry you did not.. I wish you had because you might be a little more enlightened about this topic if you were..

 

I am aware of that. I was a beta tester. They never once directly said AC was a class. Period.

 

Ever since launch, Bioware has maintained a stance of doing nothing to piss off it's customers.. It happens when you lose over a million people shortly after launch.. The stance however is giving soft no's for almost everything..

 

Bioware made dramatic changes to the game, none of which you saw because you weren't in the beta at that time.. This happened in about August before launch.. They made dramatic changes to avoid allowing AC swapping.. Now would they have done that if they wanted us to be able to AC swap..

 

Again with the "I wasn't in beta thing". You mean when you could kill your companions? When you had kiosks on every planet? When you had to wait until level 14 to even be able to sprint? Or maybe when your name was Beta when you started to create a character? Yellow box on the right for tips?

 

Enough.

 

Actually they did.. Sorry you missed it.. I don't have the power to resurrect the old forums or the beta forums.. But it was in fact said a number of times.. Both Jorge and Stephen Reid said it..

 

You are arguing with history.. Just because you weren't here or didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen and someone else didn't see it..

 

I would think that would be common sense..

 

No, they didn't. I didn't miss it. It didn't happen. I posted what they said. You must be remembering it wrong.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[MajikMyst]

I just think any REASONABLE person, for or against, should be willing to discuss and consider alternatives and options.

 

Name one alternative to AC swapping that someone has mentioned that doesn't include swapping your AC..

 

This entire thread destroys any argument any attempt of restricting AC swapping?? People don't know what permanent is now, what makes you think they are going to know what permanent after 1 means?? Or permanent after 2??

 

The biggest mistake Bioware can make is allowing it at all..

 

We will no longer have classes in this game.. There is no consequences for our choices..

 

What will the next big debate be about?? Changing from a trooper to a Jedi..

 

Your AC is your class and that argument is simply moot.. It has no bearing on why or why not AC swapping should be allowed.. Attempts to devalue the AC are pointless and only serve to show the weakness of someone's position..

[MajikMyst]

I am aware of that. I was a beta tester. They never once directly said AC was a class. Period.

 

Then you weren't a beta tester.. Or you didn't actually go to the forums.. It was posted no less than 5 times in 5 different threads.. Not to mention quoted by countless others..

[MajikMyst]

Again with the "I wasn't in beta thing". You mean when you could kill your companions? When you had kiosks on every planet? When you had to wait until level 14 to even be able to sprint? Or maybe when your name was Beta when you started to create a character? Yellow box on the right for tips?

 

Dude.. All you are doing is proving yourself wrong.. You are just spouting about stuff that anyone can find on the internet..

 

During the time period of July 2011 to Dec 15, 2011 (Early release) You could never kill your companions.. It never even came up..

 

Perhaps when you read about stuff on the internet you could at least look at the dates?? If you were in the beta during the time I was, you would know.. Unless you were one of those weekend warriors that was only there for a couple days..

 

How about the orange dot in my sig?? Care to explain why it is there??

Edited June 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Tommot]

I absolutely hate this idea, especially if it only costs $20 after the first time (like the OP suggested). If they do it at all, make it $100+ each time someone wants to change AC.

 

This way, you'd have to really and truly want to change your AC to do it. Rerolling a different AC would still be a viable option because not everyone would be willing to spend $100 (including me).

 

But if they were to come around and say that you can change AC for cheap or even free, then I would quit this game and never look back. Would make 2 of my characters feel worthless, and completely kill my incentive to play anymore alts (my favorite part of this game).

 

Not only that, but there would be sooo many noobs running around who dont know how to play their AC. Most of the ACs are VERY different from each other. This part seems like common sense to anyone who's played the game for more than a few hours...

Edited June 21, 2013 by Tommot

[MajikMyst]

I absolutely hate this idea, especially if it only costs $20 after the first time (like the OP suggested). If they do it at all, make it $100+ each time someone wants to change AC.

 

This way, you'd have to really and truly want to change your AC to do it. Rerolling a different AC would still be a viable option because not everyone would be willing to spend $100.

 

But if they were to come around and say that you can change AC for cheap or even free, then I would quit this game and never look back. Would make 2 of my characters feel worthless, and completely kill my incentive to play anymore alts (my favorite part of this game).

 

^^

 

I hear you.. Sadly some people don't even understand the impacts this will have.. They just see what they want and that is all they care about..

[LordArtemis]

Name one alternative to AC swapping that someone has mentioned that doesn't include swapping your AC..

 

No.

 

This entire thread destroys any argument any attempt of restricting AC swapping?? People don't know what permanent is now, what makes you think they are going to know what permanent after 1 means?? Or permanent after 2??

 

People know what permanent means. The current dev staff does not seem to subscribe to that meaning however. To claim otherwise is wishful thinking IMO.

 

The biggest mistake Bioware can make is allowing it at all..

 

I agree it would not be wise. I do not agree it is the biggest mistake. But it would make a bad situation even worse IMO. I would prefer there be NO AC change. I think that is the best option.

 

We will no longer have classes in this game.. There is no consequences for our choices..

 

That's a bit overly dramatic, don't you think?

 

What will the next big debate be about?? Changing from a trooper to a Jedi..

 

A silly argument. Plenty of complaints were heeded and ended once the changes were made. I have posted examples. This is not a done deal if they offer the change.

 

Your AC is your class and that argument is simply moot.. It has no bearing on why or why not AC swapping should be allowed.. Attempts to devalue the AC are pointless and only serve to show the weakness of someone's position..

 

Saying it over and over again does not make it so. It has to FEEL like a class, and right now I contend it does not feel that way, at least not as much as it should. But they can rectify that.

 

They devalued the AC by design. Bioware did far more damage to making AC a meaningful class choice than any discussion ever would.

 

I think that speaking of weak positions when arguments from the anti club consist of "lazy players", "give an inch", "permanent means class", "choices matter" or "bioware said class" is not wise. Both sides have pretty weak arguments IMO.

 

The only completely valid argument I can see against AC change is the effect that demeaning the choice may have on class representation due to some poor designs.

 

The only completely valid argument I can see for AC change is that they are choices that are not as meaningful as they should be, feel more like specs than classes based on design.

 

Almost all other reasons presented have been more emotional than logical.

[MajikMyst]

1621 posts and not a single word from Bioware.

 

Try playing the game.. All you need to know is there.. Everytime you choose an AC, Bioware tells you it will be a permanent choice.. What more do you want??

 

Everyone in the game has at least read and heard those warnings at least 4 times.. Look how many people don't understand the word permanent?? Now that is sad..

[MajikMyst]

People know what permanent means. The current dev staff does not seem to subscribe to that meaning however. To claim otherwise is wishful thinking IMO..

 

And you can qualify this statement how??

[LordArtemis]

Then you weren't a beta tester.. Or you didn't actually go to the forums.. It was posted no less than 5 times in 5 different threads.. Not to mention quoted by countless others..

 

No it wasn't. Your at the best recalling it wrong, at the worst being dishonest, period. I already posted what they said, and plenty of other folks in this thread have done the same.

 

Your problem is that some beta testers agree with me, others agree with you. But we all know what was said.

[LordArtemis]

And you can qualify this statement how??

 

Again, you have something wrong with your eyes. They keep rolling into your head.

 

The most recent statement regarding AC change, combined with all the changes made recently to the game that Bioware indicated would never change, were permanent or were not possible.

 

Examples have been posted.

 

You just can't seem to get away from your obsession with ice skating uphill. I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish here. If it is to somehow invalidate my opinion or prevent me from expressing it you failed to accomplish either the moment you tried.

 

It makes little sense to try any way, considering my opinion means next to nothing. I simply can't understand why the anti AC folks want me to pick up the pitchfork and torches so badly.

 

Looks like I need to remind you of this, yet again.

 

You see Lord, that is the problem with you pro class swapping folks..

 

Option 7 - This is the one that would be my preference, though I'm reasonably open to option 1

 

No AC change allowed.

 

...ignoring the FACT that I have stated on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS the following....

 

AC is different enough to be looked at as a separate class IMO. I think Bioware has also made it clear in the past they feel the same way.

 

I am not wild about any AC change option and would prefer for it to remain as it is.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[MajikMyst]

No it wasn't. Your at the best recalling it wrong, at the worst being dishonest, period. I already posted what they said, and plenty of other folks in this thread have done the same.

 

Your problem is that some beta testers agree with me, others agree with you. But we all know what was said.

 

Seriously?? Whatever dude.. You are obviously living in a bubble.. You can claim it wasn't there all you want.. I can almost quote it verbatim.. "We consider your AC to be the class of your character.' or something like that.. It has been over a year..

 

Daniel Erickson on Advanced Classes being a full class:

 

Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson

 

Inside each one of those, we treated those as a full class

 

That actually is a later quote..

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=1630820&postcount=3

 

Note the date of this thread.. There have been a lot things said about this topic.. It has been said.. Countless times over in both forums, interviews and so on.. Just because you haven't heard anything doesn't mean it hasn't been said.. Which clearly it has.. Repeatedly..

 

As for other beta testers agreeing with?? Good luck with that.. I would start with the weekend warriors, they didn't see much.. The forums were wiped a couple of times before they showed up..

 

How about that orange dot explanation??

[Anzel]

How about that orange dot explanation??

 

...and don't forget the pink boots!

[MajikMyst]

Again, you have something wrong with your eyes. They keep rolling into your head.

 

The most recent statement regarding AC change, combined with all the changes made recently to the game that Bioware indicated would never change, were permanent or were not possible.

 

Examples have been posted.

 

You just can't seem to get away from your obsession with ice skating uphill. I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish here. If it is to somehow invalidate my opinion or prevent me from expressing it you failed to accomplish either the moment you tried.

 

It makes little sense to try any way, considering my opinion means next to nothing. I simply can't understand why the anti AC folks want me to pick up the pitchfork and torches so badly.

 

Looks like I need to remind you of this, yet again.

 

Dude.. All that shows is that you don't know much about business nor how to read between the lines.. Bioware has been saying the same thing on this issue since early last year.. Nothing has changed.. The game still says no which you and other love to ignore..

 

How can you argue with the game?? As long as you ignore the game, you are making point of view look kind of stupid.. It would be like looking out your window and seeing it rain, but not believing it until the weather man tells you so.. All you need to know is in the game..

 

You aren't reminding me of anything.. Other than what it seems you do not understand..

 

Recent changes?? Can you actually name one or is your vague attempt at stating fact without details supposed to go unnoticed??

 

Seriously dude.. You just need to get your facts straight.. Because you haven't said anything with any details.. Your are just making vague statements about nothing and claiming you are right.. Ok.. I will give you that.. You are right about nothing.. I can't tell you what you are right about because you haven't told me..

 

How about that orange dot that you keep ignoring?? I am not the only one with this in their sig.. It was a beta thing..

Edited June 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

...and don't forget the pink boots!

 

Or the pink doggies!! lol

[LordArtemis]

Daniel Erickson on Advanced Classes being a full class:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=1630820&postcount=3

 

This is exactly what I mean. They did not design them as a full class. This is EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS.

 

DE:...inside one of those we treated them LIKE a full class, and in an MMO you always have options.

 

He did not say "we treated them AS a full class" like is often posted. He said LIKE a full class. Which falls perfectly in line with all the other statements made about them looking at them LIKE they are unique class designs, seeing them as very similar to a new class, etc. Also note he was speaking to ROLE OPTIONS in context. Cherrypicking to make a point AND changing what was said....not good.

 

Does he mean they are a class? You could say that. You could also say what I contended. They see them that way, but they were not designed that way.

 

This misquoting seems to happen quite a bit from the anti folks...taking direct quotes and changing what was said to match what you want.

 

The proof?

 

 

I say if your going to make an argument using Bioware statements you have to AT LEAST make sure you the statements you post are accurate. I go through GREAT PAINS to make sure every quote I post is verbatim.

 

You are welcome to check every single quote I have posted to see that I am telling the truth. I will gladly stand up to that scrutiny.

 

Oh...BTW, the old forums are not gone. Wayback machine. Most of it is there.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[PeterTLJr]

Dude.. All that shows is that you don't know much about business nor how to read between the lines.. Bioware has been saying the same thing on this issue since early last year.. Nothing has changed.. The game still says no which you and other love to ignore..

 

How can you argue with the game?? As long as you ignore the game, you are making point of view look kind of stupid.. It would be like looking out your window and seeing it rain, but not believing it until the weather man tells you so.. All you need to know is in the game..

 

You aren't reminding me of anything.. Other than what it seems you do not understand..

 

Recent changes?? Can you actually name one or is your vague attempt at stating fact without details supposed to go unnoticed??

 

Seriously dude.. You just need to get your facts straight.. Because you haven't said anything with any details.. Your are just making vague statements about nothing and claiming you are right.. Ok.. I will give you that.. You are right about nothing.. I can't tell you what you are right about because you haven't told me..

 

How about that orange dot that you keep ignoring?? I am not the only one with this in their sig.. It was a beta thing..

 

Lose the attitude, especially towards this gentleman, he has stated multiple times his views towards this, and none of them have been strongly for AC changes. He is playing the middleman in this thread.

 

So how about you get your facts straight and go read through previous posts before you open your trap.

[PeterTLJr]

1621 posts and not a single word from Bioware.

 

Makes me think that they are trying to figure out a way to put this feature in the game. If they were standing next to no they would have shut this thread down 100 pages ago.

[PeterTLJr]

I absolutely hate this idea, especially if it only costs $20 after the first time (like the OP suggested). If they do it at all, make it $100+ each time someone wants to change AC.

 

This way, you'd have to really and truly want to change your AC to do it. Rerolling a different AC would still be a viable option because not everyone would be willing to spend $100 (including me).

 

But if they were to come around and say that you can change AC for cheap or even free, then I would quit this game and never look back. Would make 2 of my characters feel worthless, and completely kill my incentive to play anymore alts (my favorite part of this game).

 

Not only that, but there would be sooo many noobs running around who dont know how to play their AC. Most of the ACs are VERY different from each other. This part seems like common sense to anyone who's played the game for more than a few hours...

 

This was my point earlier, people are against AC changes but are willing to go for it if theres a huge penalty...why? its still AC changes. Lol people are so silly they just want to make a big deal out of it.

[PeterTLJr]

really??? How is that any different then saying "i do not have time to raid so give me a full set of raid gear because i want it"

 

 

Sorry but that is kinda stupid. You give these whiny little brats and inch then they will want everything. There is no legit reason to give someone a completely new class at max level.

 

And how is changing ACs any different then changing up your spec/soul in any other game?

Paladin = Paladin abilities + holy/ret/prot abilities + skill tree abilities

Trooper = Trooper abilities + commando/vanguard abilities + skill tree abilities

 

Now before you tell me that Holy Ret and Prot are the skill trees, think back to when you hit level 10, you HAD to pick one of them so you would gain certain abilities that the other 2 could not, but you still learned your paladin abilities.

Its the same thing.

[LordArtemis]

You really can't be serious.

 

Dude.. All that shows is that you don't know much about business nor how to read between the lines.. Bioware has been saying the same thing on this issue since early last year.. Nothing has changed.. The game still says no which you and other love to ignore.

 

Or you don't know how to make statements and present them as opinion instead of facts. Which one do you think is more reasonable or likely? My guess would be the person that actual goes by what was said instead of what I think when it comes to claiming facts.

 

Every contention you make Majik can be seen as reasonable and logical. The problem is not your logic, it is how you present it and beat everyone else over the head with it.

 

How can you argue with the game?? As long as you ignore the game, you are making point of view look kind of stupid.. It would be like looking out your window and seeing it rain, but not believing it until the weather man tells you so.. All you need to know is in the game..

 

The game does not tell me AC is a class. It tells me the choice is permanent. One can infer that means it is a meaningful or important choice and perhaps it is a unique class if they stretch it that far. But that is not a verbatim definition for AC.

 

You aren't reminding me of anything.. Other than what it seems you do not understand..

 

Yes I am. The facts that you seem to ignore and continue to do so. Might be good if you read the last two quotes. It's pretty relevant to our discussion.

 

Recent changes?? Can you actually name one or is your vague attempt at stating fact without details supposed to go unnoticed??

 

No. and No. You want the info, look for it in the thread yourself. It's has been posted more than enough times.

 

Seriously dude.. You just need to get your facts straight.. Because you haven't said anything with any details.. Your are just making vague statements about nothing and claiming you are right.. Ok.. I will give you that.. You are right about nothing.. I can't tell you what you are right about because you haven't told me..

 

There are so many things wrong with this statement I couldn't even begin to correct them. I will only say hyperbole does not help your argument, an argument that makes little sense in the first place.

 

How about that orange dot that you keep ignoring?? I am not the only one with this in their sig.. It was a beta thing..

 

Yes, Majik, upper left, the one below right under chat. Enough about the dot. It wasn't there for very long when I started in beta. It got removed shortly after that.

 

I thought one of my pixels in my monitor was bad. I even posted about it in the forums. Got me a little miffed to be honest, almost bought a new monitor.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

In the end Majik, this is what I think you are saying, after leaning out all the diatribe....

 

1) AC choice is meaningful enough, there is no need to make any statements, changes to the game or the like.

2) AC is a class. Bioware has certainly STRONGLY INFERRED this on more than one occasion. They have not said anything to the contrary to date.

3) There is no reasonable reason to allow AC change. It is contrary to the original decision Bioware made to remove the option in Beta. That decision was made for valid reasons that remain valid today.

If I am wrong, let me know.

 

They are all certainly reasonable viewpoints and you are entitled to them...though I may not completely agree, I think we agree mostly on the important points.

 

The real contention between us is of course my desire to have them "put this to bed", so to speak and the idea that I see ACs as being different to be considered classes, where you see them as clear and concise classes with no doubt.

[TridusSWTOR]

really??? How is that any different then saying "i do not have time to raid so give me a full set of raid gear because i want it"

 

 

Sorry but that is kinda stupid. You give these whiny little brats and inch then they will want everything. There is no legit reason to give someone a completely new class at max level.

 

Right so getting gear from an op, that requires other players is the same as leveling a character on your own.

 

Come on, is that the best you got?

[TridusSWTOR]

You are calling her a troll when you can't even respond to what she actually said.. You have to edit what she said in your quote and respond to that.. Wow.. Talk about calling the kettle black..

 

To me that is totally a troll move.. You earned that title..

 

You can't even respond to my points that destroyed whatever argument you had. So how are you any different?

[TridusSWTOR]

Name one alternative to AC swapping that someone has mentioned that doesn't include swapping your AC..

 

This entire thread destroys any argument any attempt of restricting AC swapping?? People don't know what permanent is now, what makes you think they are going to know what permanent after 1 means?? Or permanent after 2??

 

The biggest mistake Bioware can make is allowing it at all..

 

We will no longer have classes in this game.. There is no consequences for our choices..

 

What will the next big debate be about?? Changing from a trooper to a Jedi..

 

Your AC is your class and that argument is simply moot.. It has no bearing on why or why not AC swapping should be allowed.. Attempts to devalue the AC are pointless and only serve to show the weakness of someone's position..

 

Nice hyperbole. The mere fact that you have to go to those extreme's means that you have lost this argument a long time ago.

 

Start staying on topic and talking about the situation at hand. Not these "end of the world" scenario's you proclaim will happen but still have yet to provide any proof to support such claims.

 

You should learn to accept change, otherwise the world will leave you behind. I guess you must be fine with that since you battle any change in the game at all cost. So who wants to go back to level 14 sprint? This poster above does!