ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Hizoka]

If I am sure of anything Hizoka it is that you and I have NOTHING to discuss. Ever.

 

so saying they are different classes in the most definite terms possible is not direct enough for you... That is what i expected.

 

That is why these games go down the toilet. The Devs can say something in terms that need no interpretation yet it is still misinterpreted by many of the players.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Hizoka

[Kilora]

No... nobody else can debate it either...

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine. Not debatable.

2.) What I do with them is my business. See 1.

 

See? Super easy.

 

Unfortunately, you are incorrect.

 

1.) You pay for a license to play the game. BW can revoke that license at any point in time. And you have 0 right to anything.

 

2.) It is 100% BWs business. You are correct that it is not another players business, but BW will make decisions based on the community.

[Anzel]

Unfortunately, you are incorrect.

 

1.) You pay for a license to play the game. BW can revoke that license at any point in time. And you have 0 right to anything.

 

2.) It is 100% BWs business. You are correct that it is not another players business, but BW will make decisions based on the community.

 

Ohhhhh OK. Let me adjust what I said above then to help you.

 

1.) They are my characters. I paid for them. Period.

2.) What I do with them is nobody's business. Not yours or anyone else's. See 1.

 

There, does that help?

[Kilora]

Ohhhhh OK. Let me adjust what I said above then to help you.

 

1.) They are my characters. I paid for them. Period.

2.) What I do with them is nobody's business. Not yours or anyone else's. See 1.

 

There, does that help?

 

Yep! It's shown your ignorance. Here, let me help you.

 

Unfortunately, you are incorrect.

 

1.) You pay for a license to play the game. BW can revoke that license at any point in time. And you have 0 right to anything.

 

2.) It is 100% BWs business. You are correct that it is not another players business, but BW will make decisions based on the community.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kilora

[Hizoka]

Ohhhhh OK. Let me adjust what I said above then to help you.

 

1.) They are my characters. I paid for them. Period.

2.) What I do with them is nobody's business. Not yours or anyone else's. See 1.

 

There, does that help?

 

you still missed the boat. Go and read the EULA the thing you electronically signed in order to play the game. That is basically the rule list.

 

It says that you DO NO HAVE ANY RIGHT to anything in this game. It is all EAs, they can ban you simply because they feel like it. They can delete your characters if they feel like it and you have 0 recourse. After all you signed the agreement saying they can do that.

 

I know you did not read the EULA, but intelligent people read everything they sign.

[Anzel]

Yep! It's shown your ignorance.

 

Can't wait until the day you use your characters that you paid for to violate the ToS and have them taken away. I'd LOVE to see what you have to say then.

 

I think I've spoken to brick walls with a larger vocabulary. I'm sorry I even tried to speak to you. My apologies.

 

Ohhhhhhh OK OK OK now I see. Here. Let me explain it in a much simpler way.

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine. Period.

2.) What I do with them is my business. Nobody else's... as in none of your business. SOURCE: See 1.

 

I really hope this helps you understand how this works. It seems that you are confused on the matter. Good luck OK?

[LordArtemis]

Just for those that like to make up fiction and call it fact, here you go.

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

Spoken by Daniel Erickson, a Dev that no longer works for the company, and he did NOT SAY THEY WERE INDIVIDUAL CLASSES. He said they seem them as FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS.

 

You can assume what that means if you like. I think it means they see them as similar to classes, different enough from each other to be treated like a class....which I agree with.

 

He doesn't say they are distinct classes, they were designed that way, etc.

 

Oh, but wait, here is another exact quote....and a more recent one at that, from a CURRENT STAFF MEMBER....

 

Duffy: Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

Damion Schubert: We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

 

Note that DS does not say in any way shape or form that ACs are classes. Nor does he say they are not. But verbatum, they have had serious talks about offering it and it will likely happen eventually.

 

So here are the only true facts based on both quotes and other direct Bioware quotes posted in this thread.

 

1) Bioware sees ACs as fundamentally different class designs. There is no way of knowing if the current dev team has the same view, but it is likely.

2) Bioware has had serious talks recently recently about offering AC change, and at least one dev believes this will likely happen eventually.

3) AC choice is currently a permanent choice. Players receive warnings to this effect.

4) You are not required to choose an AC. You can play all the way to level 50 without choosing one (haven't seen evidence of level 55, so I can not state this as fact.

5) At one time, for several months, Bioware intended to allow AC change. This was before launch.

6) Bioware has called ACs roles or playstyle choices on more than one occasion. They have never specifically called them a class to my knowledge.

 

These are the only facts that are irrefutable. Multiple posts have been provided to prove it.

 

Now, for my opinion.......

 

I believe one can view AC's as class designs since they are different enough from each other...so I label them as a class, though I recognize that is not set in stone. It is just my opinion.

 

I believe that allowing AC change with no restrictions would have detrimental effects on the game which I will not repeat here. Allowing an early change would have a much lower impact, and I would be willing to support that option. However, I would prefer, If I had a say in the matter (I do not) that it remains as it is for now.

 

There is still room to discuss the issue for anyone that wishes to do so IMO.

Edited June 18, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

No... nobody else can debate it either...

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine. Not debatable.

2.) What I do with them is my business. See 1.

 

See? Super easy.

 

Your being delusional if you think that has any effect on whether or not folks discuss this. It's a silly contention that has no basis in reality.

 

See? Super easy.

[Kilora]

Ohhhhhhh OK OK OK now I see. Here. Let me explain it in a much simpler way.

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine. Period.

2.) What I do with them is my business. Nobody else's... as in none of your business. SOURCE: See 1.

 

I really hope this helps you understand how this works. It seems that you are confused on the matter. Good luck OK?

 

Yep, I understand now!

 

1.) BW has complete control over every single thing you are and aren't allowed to do in the forums AND in the game. And you're delusional. But that is okay. Ignorance = bliss.

2.) See 1

3.) See 6

5.) See 4

6.) See 2

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kilora

[Anzel]

you still missed the boat. Go and read the EULA the thing you electronically signed in order to play the game. That is basically the rule list.

 

It says that you DO NO HAVE ANY RIGHT to anything in this game. It is all EAs, they can ban you simply because they feel like it. They can delete your characters if they feel like it and you have 0 recourse. After all you signed the agreement saying they can do that.

 

I know you did not read the EULA, but intelligent people read everything they sign.

 

Ohhhhh I see... you've read the EULA. That is most helpful. You are super intelligent for reading it. Here... let me just explain this in a really super simple way.

 

1.) My characters are my own. I paid for them. They are mine.

2.) What I do with my characters is my business and nobody else's. Not yours or anyone else's. SEE 1.

 

Since (according to you) you're such a super intelligent person for reading the EULA you should be able to understand what I'm saying above. I really really hope this helps you

[LordArtemis]

so saying they are different classes in the most definite terms possible is not direct enough for you... That is what i expected.

 

That is why these games go down the toilet. The Devs can say something in terms that need no interpretation yet it is still misinterpreted by many of the players.

 

Actually Hizoka, if you want to see why games like this go down the toilet....you might want to take a look at players that extensive histories as a forum troll.

 

Your post history stands in evidence of everything that is toxic about general forums. I will let others judge your post history on their own. I have made my judgement.

 

And you have made yours. There is no need for us to speak further.

Edited June 18, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Anzel]

Yep, I understand now!

 

1.) BW has complete control over every single thing you are and aren't allowed to do in the forums AND in the game. And you're delusional. But that is okay. Ignorance = bliss.

2.) See 1

3.) See 6

5.) See 4

6.) See 2

 

I apologize that you are so super concerned about how everyone else is playing the game. I know that it must bother you to no end that you cannot control what they are doing or not doing. This is hard for you, I understand. I've given this some thought and I think this may help:

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine.

2.) What I do with them is my business, nobody else's.

 

I know that you want debate the EULA and the TOS and the Forum Rules to find some sliver of hope that you can control what everyone else is doing. But I'm sorry. Please see what I've outlined above. I think you will find it most helpful

[LordArtemis]

I apologize that you are so super concerned about how everyone else is playing the game. I know that it must bother you to no end that you cannot control what they are doing or not doing. This is hard for you, I understand. I've given this some thought and I think this may help:

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine.

2.) What I do with them is my business, nobody else's.

 

I know that you want debate the EULA and the TOS and the Forum Rules to find some sliver of hope that you can control what everyone else is doing. But I'm sorry. Please see what I've outlined above. I think you will find it most helpful

 

...and yet you try and control what people can or can not discuss. How is that any different?

 

Unless you are trying to be purposefully combative.

[Kilora]

I apologize that you are so super concerned about how everyone else is playing the game. I know that it must bother you to no end that you cannot control what they are doing or not doing. This is hard for you, I understand. I've given this some thought and I think this may help:

 

1.) I pay for my characters. They are mine.

2.) What I do with them is my business, nobody else's.

 

I know that you want debate the EULA and the TOS and the Forum Rules to find some sliver of hope that you can control what everyone else is doing. But I'm sorry. Please see what I've outlined above. I think you will find it most helpful

 

And I understand that you cannot grasp what I am saying. I'm also sorry that you feel I am concerned. Let me make it clear: I couldn't care less

 

1.) Never tried to control you. Merely enlightening you to the fact that BW has absolute control.

2.) You're attempting to be combative.

 

I know it bothers you that other people have voices and opinions. And I know how much it bothers you to not have control over BW. I'm truly sorry for that.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kilora

[LordArtemis]

Hopefully we can get back to the discussion at hand.

 

I am curious to know if anyone has reached level 55 without choosing a class. I know some folks posted a few links...I will look for them, but if they could be reposted I would appreciate it.

 

So, at this point I assume there are a few compromise models, not the only ones mind you, and not the last word on the matter, but here are the ones I am aware of that have been mentioned most often....

 

This is the one I am currently willing to begrudgingly support

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP is uneffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

This is another that has been mentioned

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And yet another

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - 7 day cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And the final one I have seen

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

If there are any other proposals for consideration, please let me know.

Edited June 19, 2013 by LordArtemis

[spectreclees]

Just for those that like to make up fiction and call it fact, here you go.

 

 

Spoken by Daniel Erickson, a Dev that no longer works for the company, and he did NOT SAY THEY WERE INDIVIDUAL CLASSES. He said they seem them as FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS.

 

You can assume what that means if you like. I think it means they see them as similar to classes, different enough from each other to be treated like a class....which I agree with.

 

He doesn't say they are distinct classes, they were designed that way, etc.

 

Oh, but wait, here is another exact quote....and a more recent one at that, from a CURRENT STAFF MEMBER....

 

 

 

Note that DS does not say in any way shape or form that ACs are classes. Nor does he say they are not. But verbatum, they have had serious talks about offering it and it will likely happen eventually.

 

So here are the only true facts based on both quotes and other direct Bioware quotes posted in this thread.

 

1) Bioware sees ACs as fundamentally different class designs. There is no way of knowing if the current dev team has the same view, but it is likely.

2) Bioware has had serious talks recently recently about offering AC change, and at least one dev believes this will likely happen eventually.

3) AC choice is currently a permanent choice. Players receive warnings to this effect.

4) You are not required to choose an AC. You can play all the way to level 50 without choosing one (haven't seen evidence of level 55, so I can not state this as fact.

5) At one time, for several months, Bioware intended to allow AC change. This was before launch.

6) Bioware has called ACs roles or playstyle choices on more than one occasion. They have never specifically called them a class to my knowledge.

 

These are the only facts that are irrefutable. Multiple posts have been provided to prove it.

 

Now, for my opinion.......

 

I believe one can view AC's as class designs since they are different enough from each other...so I label them as a class, though I recognize that is not set in stone. It is just my opinion.

 

I believe that allowing AC change with no restrictions would have detrimental effects on the game which I will not repeat here. Allowing an early change would have a much lower impact, and I would be willing to support that option. However, I would prefer, If I had a say in the matter (I do not) that it remains as it is for now.

 

There is still room to discuss the issue for anyone that wishes to do so IMO.

 

As I stated Bioware has said similar things about X-server queues saying they will be in and then they will not and then it might happen again. This is a debate that is thrown up in the air constantly by them with no clear answer.

[astrobearx]

Hopefully we can get back to the discussion at hand.

 

I am curious to know if anyone has reached level 55 without choosing a class. I know some folks posted a few links...I will look for them, but if they could be reposted I would appreciate it.

 

So, at this point I assume there are a few compromise models, not the only ones mind you, and not the last word on the matter, but here are the ones I am aware of that have been mentioned most often....

 

This is the one I am currently willing to begrudgingly support

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP is uneffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

This is another that has been mentioned

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And yet another

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - 7 day cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And the final one I have seen

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

If there are any other proposals for consideration, please let me know.

 

i only see the second option to be reasonable, the other are either too strict or too free

[Khevar]

...and yet you try and control what people can or can not discuss. How is that any different?

 

Unless you are trying to be purposefully combative.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. He posted similar comments in a thread about need/greed:

I select need for everything. They should just remove the buttons altogether. I need everything.

I suspect he says things like that just to watch other poster's reactions.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Khevar

[Ratajack]

but..

 

 

he's switching to dps either way. he's STILL not tanking? or are you saying that he's useless unless he plays a role he might not be interested in playing anymore (considering he's switching to dps? )

 

or if AC switches are not permanent, what would stop him from switching back to jugg and tanking, other than personal lack of desire (in which case, just because he's capable of tanking and cannot switch to Mara, doesn't mean he WOULD be tanking)

 

also, maras are not useless. on the contrary. dps in general can make or break the group and good dps is just as important as good tank or healer.

 

to reiterate. if people are forced into a role instead of choosing a role - its not fun for anyone involved and games should be fun.

 

P.S. back in a day, world of warcraft actually had class specific stuff. quests, mini stories and the like. nowadays - its all homogenized. SWTOR is NOT World of warcraft. and in TOR, class selection begins with a story. not advanced specialization? story. a story that you can finish without picking out advanced specialization at all. yes, its been done. so no, advanced specialization, advanced class? doesn't define classes in TOR. story does.

 

 

How many talent points were actually allocated by those players who reached max level without actually picking a CLASS, but only choosing a base class or story line? That answer would be ZERO if they actually reached max level without picking a CLASS since you do not gain access to your skill trees until you pick a CLASS.

 

Base class determines story line only, not your Actual Class. Notice the AC.

 

Even the most vehement proponent of class changes in this thread acknowledges that AC are FUNDAMENTALLY YOUR CLASS, despite the fact that he apparently wishes otherwise.

[Ratajack]

1. no, switching advanced classes in TOR is not like switching from warrior to rogue in WoW, and I explained why. story. TOR is not WoW. its a different game. and classes revolve mainly around story. story is the uniting factor. story can be finished without ever picking an advanced class. you can make it to lvl 55 without ever picking advanced class. and the only thing that truly changes? is a number of skills you have access to. that's it.As has been stated before, the same story is shared by two DIFFERENT CLASSES. You choose your story line at creation and your CLASS at level 10 or whenever you choose your AC. Yes, you can choose your class at a later time, or not at all, but you do not gain access to any class specific skills until you choose your class.

 

2. your last sentence answers your own question. people pick out their class originally for variety of reasons, but for the first 10 levels? you are just warrior. the way your specialization is even set up, is merely a part of the story. it changes your playstyle, but it doesn't fundamentally change your class. you are still sith warrior, or sith inquisitor, or agent, etc etc. See number 1.

 

your character login screen tells you that's what you are. it doesn't specify marauder or juggernaut. it says sith warrior. Check your guild list, how many members with a class of sith warrior do you see? I'm betting not too many. I'm betting that you will see a lot of juggernauts and a lot of marauders, but not too many sith warriors and the few that you will see will likely be below level 10.

 

so is it a wonder that many people see THAT as a class, not advanced specialization? Yes, given that the devs have stated that the AC's are DIFFERENT CLASSES.

 

I actually don't personally care whether they implement this ability or not, because I have no personal use for it. I have more than enough alts to cover most possibilities and enjoy certain stories enough to replay them over and over. I just get... lets call it mildly irritated at people who claim that switching between marauder and jugg is the same as switching between warrior and rogue and that advanced class IS the class.

 

no. its not.

 

 

Would a warrior changing to a rogue be able to keep using his heavy (plate) armor? NO

 

Would a juggernaut changing to a marauder be able to keep using his heavy armor? NO

[Ratajack]

I would like to remind everyone that the most recent comment from the new Dev staff indicates that they have been talking seriously about allowing AC change again and it is likely to happen in the future.

 

So that could point to the idea that the feeling on permanent AC choice may be changing.

 

It has been agreed that the devs have stated that AC changes will "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future. The term used was "eventually", if I am not mistaken. However, it has also been pointed out that there has been nothing further heard from the devs regarding this obviously hot topic, which could be just as indicative of the devs not really having any serious intention of actually allowing class changes.

[Ratajack]

I bet it would be pretty tough to play without the AC bonuses from the spec trees. Not to mention the extra abilities you get.

 

I wonder, if they really viewed this as a class and an important decision why they didnt make it mandatory?

 

This is only a guess, but probably because you are sacrificing access to your class specific abilities and making the leveling MUCH harder by not actually choosing a class. It could also be to allow people time to fully consider both options before making a choice that could not be undone, or simply because they wanted to leave the choice of when to choose an actual class up to the player, knowing that there might be some players who would enjoy the challenge of leveling without access to their class skills or skill trees.

[Suntaru]

Rather than Debating back and forth until your blue in the face ( Unless you're already a Chiss) . If it Happens it happens. If it doesn't it doesn't. In the mean time enjoy the game the way it is until that time. When you start your character, you have made your Class choice. At level 10, You get 2 options of which specialization you can choose from. Skills are slightly if not completely different as is your Armor and Weapons. Even though I have seen a lot of this bouncing back and forth, What about all the players here in game that have rerolled alts to pick the other specialization? Is it fair to them ? Like I said at the beginning of this comment. Just enjoy the game until we get a firm answer. Not a maybe. anyone that does want to reroll a different spec, I will gladly run with you to help you level.

[Ratajack]

Hopefully we can get back to the discussion at hand.

 

I am curious to know if anyone has reached level 55 without choosing a class. I know some folks posted a few links...I will look for them, but if they could be reposted I would appreciate it.

 

So, at this point I assume there are a few compromise models, not the only ones mind you, and not the last word on the matter, but here are the ones I am aware of that have been mentioned most often....

 

This is the one I am currently willing to begrudgingly support

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP is uneffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

This is another that has been mentioned

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And yet another

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - 7 day cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

And the final one I have seen

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

If there are any other proposals for consideration, please let me know.

 

It has also been suggested that an AC change, at any level, should revert the character back to level 10, reset any planetary, but not story, quests and the possible grant of a passive XP boost to help speed the process of leveling back to the previous level. This should also have a maximum of 1 change per character, as the player obviously did not like the original AC.

 

I do have one question I would like to clarify regarding option 3. If option lets the maximum number of changes at 1, why is there any need for a cooldown?

[Suntaru]

Reverting the character back to lvl 10 would be a good choice. At least you would not have to deal with the starting worlds.