ETA on Advanced Class change?

[ShadowHvo]

There is nothing wrong with AC changes, its not class changes, so your right there is most likely nothing you can say to change that.

 

Its an mmo yes, you play with others, when you join a guild and raid with them, thats a mutual benefit, if you want to drop your role from that raid spot, they replace you, you lose your raiding spot, you are the affected one. The guild isnt going to collapse if you switch your AC.

 

Ofcourse the guild isn't going to collapse, but it is still affected by it:rak_04:

[ShadowHvo]

Reread the original post, I clearly stated you get skill tree abilities as well.

 

Ehmm...

 

You gain skill tree abilities. Not all commandos get those unless they pick that tree. Completely different.

If I pick vanguard, I get vanguard abilities and trooper, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

Edited June 18, 2013 by ShadowHvo

[PeterTLJr]

Ehmm...

 

 

 

 

And...?

[Nythain]

Still curious how/why a Juggernaut's ability to go from Tank to DPS by switching to Marauder is different than a Juggernaut's ability to go from Tank to DPS by stopping by the skill mentor already in game and changing his talent specialization.

 

This whole "changing roles is bad and shouldn't be allowed" argument is really wobbly because newsflash, it's already allowed.

[ShadowHvo]

And...?

 

Not all commandos get those unless they pick that tree. Completely different.

If I pick vanguard, I get vanguard abilities and trooper, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

You say that not all Commandos get abilities in their skill tree unless they pick one (Or two for that matter) specific skill tree? And then continue on to say that Vanguards have abilities in each skill tree.

[PeterTLJr]

You say that not all Commandos get abilities in their skill tree unless they pick one (Or two for that matter) specific skill tree? And then continue on to say that Vanguards have abilities in each skill tree.

 

I was addressing your statements regarding commandos and skill tree abilities.

 

Then I want on to prove my statements using something else.

 

Skill trees give only a couple to few abilities that only benefit that tree.

Edited June 18, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Nythain]

You say that not all Commandos get abilities in their skill tree unless they pick one (Or two for that matter) specific skill tree? And then continue on to say that Vanguards have abilities in each skill tree.

 

He's saying each AC has abilities (some even shared with both ACs) obtainable by putting points into the talent tree... he's stated multiple times that the abilities are only obtained by putting the points into the tree, so it goes with or without saying that you get the abilities from whatever tree(s) you put the points into... So if he goes Vanguard, he would get Trooper Abilities, Vanguard Abilities, and any abilities gained from talent point distribution... not sure where you're going or how you interpreted it.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Nythain

[ShadowHvo]

Still curious how/why a Juggernaut's ability to go from Tank to DPS by switching to Marauder is different than a Juggernaut's ability to go from Tank to DPS by stopping by the skill mentor already in game and changing his talent specialization.

 

This whole "changing roles is bad and shouldn't be allowed" argument is really wobbly because newsflash, it's already allowed.

 

In truth? I wouldn't care much if we could change, hell.. I even have a Sniper which I would like to be an Operative. But I made my choice, and I will continue to live with it. Since I can't be arsed to remake her

 

Never said it shouldn't be allowed. People are changing roles all of the time. I'm just saying, that our Jugg tank is no longer useful if he roles a Mara instead.

 

If a Jugg tank went to DPS in his own free time, hell I wouldn't give a damm. But going from a Jugg Tank to a Mara makes sure that he won't be doing any Tanking, which makes him unuseable for the guild. If he then would change back to a Jugg Tank again? Well, after how MMO's is doing it, I'm pretty sure it would hurt his wallet to the point he couldn't be arsed to do it.

[ShadowHvo]

He's saying each AC has abilities (some even shared with both ACs) obtainable by putting points into the talent tree... he's stated multiple times that the abilities are only obtained by putting the points into the tree, so it goes with or without saying that you get the abilities from whatever tree(s) you put the points into... So if he goes Vanguard, he would get Trooper Abilities, Vanguard Abilities, and any abilities gained from talent point distribution... not sure where you're going or how you interpreted it.

 

We clearly read it differently.

[Khevar]

There is nothing wrong with AC changes, its not class changes, so your right there is most likely nothing you can say to change that.

 

Its an mmo yes, you play with others, when you join a guild and raid with them, thats a mutual benefit, if you want to drop your role from that raid spot, they replace you, you lose your raiding spot, you are the affected one. The guild isnt going to collapse if you switch your AC.

Of course it's not going to collapse.

 

But you started off with this very broad statement:

AC switches do not affect anyone but the person switching.

This is a very narrow view of things and completely self-centered.

[ShadowHvo]

Skill trees give only a couple to few abilities that only benefit that tree.

 

Which is the same as in World of Warcraft's old talent system?

 

I simply pointed out before that it was really similiar, since you keep seeing Advanced Classes as a Talent tree in World of Warcaft, even through it is not the same.

[Jeweledleah]

Never said it shouldn't be allowed. People are changing roles all of the time. I'm just saying, that our Jugg tank is no longer useful if he roles a Mara instead.

 

If a Jugg tank went to DPS in his own free time, hell I wouldn't give a damm. But going from a Jugg Tank to a Mara makes sure that he won't be doing any Tanking, which makes him unuseable for the guild. If he then would change back to a Jugg Tank again? Well, after how MMO's is doing it, I'm pretty sure it would hurt his wallet to the point he couldn't be arsed to do it.

 

but..

 

 

he's switching to dps either way. he's STILL not tanking? or are you saying that he's useless unless he plays a role he might not be interested in playing anymore (considering he's switching to dps? )

 

or if AC switches are not permanent, what would stop him from switching back to jugg and tanking, other than personal lack of desire (in which case, just because he's capable of tanking and cannot switch to Mara, doesn't mean he WOULD be tanking)

 

also, maras are not useless. on the contrary. dps in general can make or break the group and good dps is just as important as good tank or healer.

 

to reiterate. if people are forced into a role instead of choosing a role - its not fun for anyone involved and games should be fun.

 

P.S. back in a day, world of warcraft actually had class specific stuff. quests, mini stories and the like. nowadays - its all homogenized. SWTOR is NOT World of warcraft. and in TOR, class selection begins with a story. not advanced specialization? story. a story that you can finish without picking out advanced specialization at all. yes, its been done. so no, advanced specialization, advanced class? doesn't define classes in TOR. story does.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[ShadowHvo]

to reiterate. if people are forced into a role instead of choosing a role - its not fun for anyone involved and games should be fun.

 

Somehow I find it really funny that you're trying to villainize me for forcing people to play a role:rak_02: I completetly agree that people should never be forced to play something they don't like. Hence, I've always refused to go Darkness or Madness due to me simply not enjoying playing those specs (assassin)

 

Yet, if a guy comes to me and wants to be our main Tank for the raid, then I'm fully expecting him to be a tank, and not a Mara going beskerk with DPS. Then I couldn't care if he would be an Assassin, Jugg or Powertech. As long as he were tanking.

 

Hell, could he tank like a boss with a Mara, go for it. But I highly doubt he would be able to.

 

he's switching to dps either way. he's STILL not tanking? or are you saying that he's useless unless he plays a role he might not be interested in playing anymore (considering he's switching to dps? )

 

As I said, if he went to his DPS tree when he weren't in operations, then I wouldn't care at all. But if he signs up as a tank, then I fully expect him to tank.

 

If he then later on finds it boring to play a Tank? Hell, so be it. One shouldn't be something which they don't enjoy to play. If that happens, and no DPS spots is left. Yes, he is no longer useful then.

Edited June 18, 2013 by ShadowHvo

[branmakmuffin]

This is a very narrow view of things and completely self-centered.

It's also true. The only way AC swap affects others is because it would cause them to say it affects them. IOW, just the fact that it was available would bother them.

[Jeweledleah]

Somehow I find it really funny that you're trying to villainize me for forcing people to play a role:rak_02: I completetly agree that people should never be forced to play something they don't like. Hence, I've always refused to go Darkness or Madness due to me simply not enjoying playing those specs (assassin)

 

Yet, if a guy comes to me and wants to be our main Tank for the raid, then I'm fully expecting him to be a tank, and not a Mara going beskerk with DPS. Then I couldn't care if he would be an Assassin, Jugg or Powertech. As long as he were tanking.

 

Hell, could he tank like a boss with a Mara, go for it. But I highly doubt he would be able to.

 

 

 

As I said, if he went to his DPS tree when he weren't in operations, then I wouldn't care at all. But if he signs up as a tank, then I fully expect him to tank.

 

If he then later on finds it boring to play a Tank? Hell, so be it. One shouldn't be something which they don't enjoy to play. If that happens, and no DPS spots is left. Yes, he is no longer useful then.

 

and that would be his choice to make then. knowing that there are no dps spots left. people change their minds all the time.

 

I've been raiding for a number of years now in more than one MMO and during those years? guess what. not only I and other raiders have switched main specs within the same character - we have also switched raiding characters and... somehow, the world didn't end and somehow people rearranged and found a place, because good player is useful regardless of their role, so smart guilds find a way. on a flipside, bad player is useless even if they play a needed role, in fact, they are worse than useless, they are detrimental to the success of the group. even if they are a tank. ESPECIALLY if they are a tank

 

so someone switching roles within a single character? is no different from what's already happening and has been happening. not to mention... if AC switch is not heavily restricted, there won't be as much difference between switching between mara and jugg as you think there will be.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[ShadowHvo]

and that would be his choice to make then. knowing that there are no dps spots left. people change their minds all the time.

 

I've been raiding for a number of years now in more than one MMO and during those years? guess what. not only I and other raiders have switched main specs within the same character - we have also switched raiding characters and... somehow, the world didn't end and somehow people rearranged and found a place, because good player is useful regardless of their role, so smart guilds find a way. on a flipside, bad player is useless even if they play a needed role, in fact, they are worse than useless, they are detrimental to the success of the group. even if they are a tank. ESPECIALLY if they are a tank

 

so someone switching roles within a single character? is no different from what's already happening and has been happening. not to mention... if AC switch is not heavily restricted, there won't be as much difference between switching between mara and jugg as you think there will be.

 

In all honesty, you don't seem to quite understand my standpoint in this whole discussion.

 

I've never said that switiching a Advance Class is a bad thing. I'm not directly against it, nor am I directly with it. I wouldn't mind if it were there, nor do I mind it isn't here.

 

I'm simply saying that Switching your Advanced Class is far from the same from switching your spec in World of Warcraft. Since switching an advanced Class would be like switching from a Mage to a Rogue, or any other class for that matter.

 

As of now, we already can switch our talents like you've always could in WoW. Bioware have stated mulitple times that your Advanced Class choice is final, and I'm simply insanely curious as to why people find it so bothering. If you chose your advanced Class in level 0, people wouldn't be bothered at all.

[Jeweledleah]

In all honesty, you don't seem to quite understand my standpoint in this whole discussion.

 

I've never said that switiching a Advance Class is a bad thing. I'm not directly against it, nor am I directly with it. I wouldn't mind if it were there, nor do I mind it isn't here.

 

I'm simply saying that Switching your Advanced Class is far from the same from switching your spec in World of Warcraft. Since switching an advanced Class would be like switching from a Mage to a Rogue, or any other class for that matter.

 

As of now, we already can switch our talents like you've always could in WoW. Bioware have stated multiple times that your Advanced Class choice is final, and I'm simply insanely curious as to why people find it so bothering. If you chose your advanced Class in level 0, people wouldn't be bothered at all.

 

 

1. no, switching advanced classes in TOR is not like switching from warrior to rogue in WoW, and I explained why. story. TOR is not WoW. its a different game. and classes revolve mainly around story. story is the uniting factor. story can be finished without ever picking an advanced class. you can make it to lvl 55 without ever picking advanced class. and the only thing that truly changes? is a number of skills you have access to. that's it.

 

2. your last sentence answers your own question. people pick out their class originally for variety of reasons, but for the first 10 levels? you are just warrior. the way your specialization is even set up, is merely a part of the story. it changes your playstyle, but it doesn't fundamentally change your class. you are still sith warrior, or sith inquisitor, or agent, etc etc.

 

your character login screen tells you that's what you are. it doesn't specify marauder or juggernaut. it says sith warrior.

 

so is it a wonder that many people see THAT as a class, not advanced specialization?

 

I actually don't personally care whether they implement this ability or not, because I have no personal use for it. I have more than enough alts to cover most possibilities and enjoy certain stories enough to replay them over and over. I just get... lets call it mildly irritated at people who claim that switching between marauder and jugg is the same as switching between warrior and rogue and that advanced class IS the class.

 

no. its not.

[ShadowHvo]

1. no, switching advanced classes in TOR is not like switching from warrior to rogue in WoW, and I explained why. story. TOR is not WoW. its a different game. and classes revolve mainly around story. story is the uniting factor. story can be finished without ever picking an advanced class. you can make it to lvl 55 without ever picking advanced class. and the only thing that truly changes? is a number of skills you have access to. that's it.

 

2. your last sentence answers your own question. people pick out their class originally for variety of reasons, but for the first 10 levels? you are just warrior. the way your specialization is even set up, is merely a part of the story. it changes your playstyle, but it doesn't fundamentally change your class. you are still sith warrior, or sith inquisitor, or agent, etc etc.

 

your character login screen tells you that's what you are. it doesn't specify marauder or juggernaut. it says sith warrior.

 

so is it a wonder that many people see THAT as a class, not advanced specialization?

 

I actually don't personally care whether they implement this ability or not, because I have no personal use for it. I have more than enough alts to cover most possibilities and enjoy certain stories enough to replay them over and over. I just get... lets call it mildly irritated at people who claim that switching between marauder and jugg is the same as switching between warrior and rogue and that advanced class IS the class.

 

no. its not.

 

What does story suddenly have to do with all of this? ofcourse your story doesn't change depending on your Advanced Class. I've never said anything like that.

 

And once again, Bioware tells you directly that your choice is permanent, either live with it or reroll.

[Nythain]

Bioware tells you directly that your choice is permanent, either live with it or reroll.

Most valid argument against implementing this feature there is. More people need to stand on this argument instead of wobbly excuses like bad players and ninja looters.

 

EDIT: that reads bad, like i'm saying you're one of those people... that wasn't the intention. was actually supposed to be more of a compliment/agreeance.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Nythain

[ShadowHvo]

Most valid argument against implementing this feature there is. More people need to stand on this argument instead of wobbly excuses like bad players and ninja looters.

 

EDIT: that reads bad, like i'm saying you're one of those people... that wasn't the intention. was actually supposed to be more of a compliment/agreeance.

 

Haha it's ok!

[Jeweledleah]

What does story suddenly have to do with all of this? ofcourse your story doesn't change depending on your Advanced Class. I've never said anything like that.

 

And once again, Bioware tells you directly that your choice is permanent, either live with it or reroll.

 

what's wrong with having more options? what's wrong with getting to keep progress on a character you got attached to instead of having to start from scratch and potentially lose items you can no longer acquire? what's wrong with being imperfect and thinking you might like a playstyle, only to realize that you don't after all and NOT being forced to start over?

 

the choice is permanent NOW. doesn't mean it HAS to stay permanent. things change all the time.

 

as to what does this have to do with story? I guess you weren't reading.

 

in this game? STORY is what determines the class, not advanced specialization.

 

and me? in cases where specialization didn't work out for me, I DID reroll. this is not about me and my personal gain. whether feature gets implemented or not will not affect me personally at all.

 

I just think its good to give people more choices and chances. you know, kinda like giving them an opportunity to change the way their character looks or what their name is, instead of saying - don't like it? live with it, or reroll .

Edited June 18, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Ashenti]

I'd not be interested, personally, in a direct Ac change. but, i'm not dead against the idea for others.

I would prefer to see a 'betrayal' system. An Imp character could go through some quest series (preferably difficult and not without consequences) that allows them to defect to the Republic (or vice-versa).

The character would then become the faction-opposite class (i.e Imperial Agent becomes a Smuggler).

This could be explained during the quest series as the character undertaking new training and making new decisions while changing sides.

With this system there would be no reason why someone couldn't change their A/c, but it would involve swapping sides, then swapping back. Again, explainable within the story by the character not being happy with their choice - the grass wasn't greener after all!.

 

The quest series should be long, should be difficult and must have consequences. Mechanics to make it something not just done on a whim would lead to a better system.

[Truga]

While we're at it, I also want to switch between rep/imp and jedi/agent.

[LordArtemis]

IMO, the fact that Bioware has the choice permanent right now means next to nothing. Many formerly permanent changes the the devs not only designed that way but indicated would likely never change or had no intent to change have, in fact, changed recently.

 

AC choice is not made at character creation. Therefore it is a choice that one could say, since you have to level 10 levels just to make that choice, should have the ability to correct a bad choice if desired.

 

By the same token one can argue they are not the same class....if one compares it to WoW. Taking a Shadow Priest/Holy priest for example, in this case both are still viable healers, one simply is a better healer than the other.

 

But an Assassin is really not similar to a Sorc, though they sit inside the same class.

 

One could say this game forces you to choose your class twice, which is a design flaw IMO when you consider they share the same story.

 

It would be akin to having a BH and a Inq sharing the same story. They should have had different stories and completely different mechanics, and the choice should have been made at player creation. Then rerolling would not have been an issue....it is new content, I expect it would be very rare for a Trooper to expect to change into a Smuggler.

 

It was cheap IMO to use the same story for what is essentially two different classes, especially in a game where story is it's selling point. You have to repeat content to fix a mistake, and this is just silly.

[AsheraII]

IMO, the fact that Bioware has the choice permanent right now means next to nothing. Many formerly permanent changes the the devs not only designed that way but indicated would likely never change or had no intent to change have, in fact, changed recently.

 

AC choice is not made at character creation. Therefore it is a choice that one could say, since you have to level 10 levels just to make that choice, should have the ability to correct a bad choice if desired.

 

By the same token one can argue they are not the same class....if one compares it to WoW. Taking a Shadow Priest/Holy priest for example, in this case both are still viable healers, one simply is a better healer than the other.

 

But an Assassin is really not similar to a Sorc, though they sit inside the same class.

 

One could say this game forces you to choose your class twice, which is a design flaw IMO when you consider they share the same story.

 

It would be akin to having a BH and a Inq sharing the same story. They should have had different stories and completely different mechanics, and the choice should have been made at player creation. Then rerolling would not have been an issue....it is new content, I expect it would be very rare for a Trooper to expect to change into a Smuggler.

 

It was cheap IMO to use the same story for what is essentially two different classes, especially in a game where story is it's selling point. You have to repeat content to fix a mistake, and this is just silly.

That's why I'd like to see advanced class specific solo content in the future.

Kill two birds with one stone: people want more solo content (story and instance content, not dailies, though even story content could be made repeatable) and to emphasize the radical differences between the advanced classes.

What may be a challenge to a Shadow, might not be a challenge to a sage, and vice versa. So advanced class specific content could be balanced to give each advanced class a comparable challenge.