ETA on Advanced Class change?

[PeterTLJr]

What that says to ORIGINAL design should be obvious as by your own admission, their first stance was that AC changes would not happen. I would posit the their first stance is original design.

 

They have held to their stance that AC 's are DIFFERENT classes since they made that statement before launch. They went to great lengths to add multiple confirmations that your choice of CLASS was PERMANENT and that once you start down a path, forever will it dominate you.

 

They have since made a single statement about AC changes "likely happening". That statement was made a long time ago, in a galaxy far away. We have heard NOTHING further from the devs, despite numerous lengthy threads, including this 115+ page thread and one on the suggestion forum. I do not know about you, but that absolute silence from the devs regarding what is so obviously a sensitive subject speaks worlds to me.

 

I do not expect to see class changes until this game is well and truly on the serious downfall, and they have no choice but to try to make it P2W in a last ditch effort to save it.

 

AC changing isnt P2W, unless they make changing on free will, if they add restrictions, then it should be fine. The statement regarding no ac changing was a lot longer ago then the one stating it will likely happen, so unless something changes, we must go off the newer dev post.

[Ratajack]

Depends on the game, I dont believe thats the case in this game, those 3 things are what separate ACs, but aside from that there isnt any difference between the ACs in the base class.

 

Once again, you hide your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears in an attempt to pretend that you are correct in a vain attempt to justify your desire to CHANGE YOUR CLASS.

 

Do juggernauts and vanguards both wear heavy armor? Do vanguards and juggernauts both DPS and tank? DO they both need to be in melee range? Do they both have taunts? Those two classes are much more similar in their play style than a vanguard and commando will EVER be. Yet I cannot change from a vanguard to a juggernaut, nor should I be able to make that change, just as a player should not be able to change his CLASS from vanguard to commando. A CLASS CHANGE is a a CLASS CHANGE ans should not happen.

[PeterTLJr]

Once again, you hide your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears in an attempt to pretend that you are correct in a vain attempt to justify your desire to CHANGE YOUR CLASS.

 

Do juggernauts and vanguards both wear heavy armor? Do vanguards and juggernauts both DPS and tank? DO they both need to be in melee range? Do they both have taunts? Those two classes are much more similar in their play style than a vanguard and commando will EVER be. Yet I cannot change from a vanguard to a juggernaut, nor should I be able to make that change, just as a player should not be able to change his CLASS from vanguard to commando. A CLASS CHANGE is a a CLASS CHANGE ans should not happen.

 

But its a lot more likely to see a trooper who chooses vanguard train different and become a commando, then all the sudden become a sith lord and wield a lightsaber. You have to look at this situation from all aspects, not just gameplay.

[Ratajack]

AC changing isnt P2W, unless they make changing on free will, if they add restrictions, then it should be fine. The statement regarding no ac changing was a lot longer ago then the one stating it will likely happen, so unless something changes, we must go off the newer dev post.

 

I would go off the fact that we have heard NOTHING since, not one PEEP, or even a hint of whisper.

 

You yourself have already admitted that there are those who will find it easier leveling as one class, but find the other class more powerful at end game. How would it not be P2W to let someone level as the more powerful leveling class and then change class, to a class they have never played before, that happens to be more powerful for the end game.

 

How is it not P2W to allow someone to level as a marauder smash monkey because that is easier than even juggernaut DPS then allow them to change class at end game so they can tank for their guild?

 

I am not paying for a cosmetic change. I am paying for a fundamentally different class, one that has different armor requirements, different weapons, different play styles, and more differences, solely so that I can the easier route and still fill the role of tank my guild wants me to fill.

[Ratajack]

But its a lot more likely to see a trooper who chooses vanguard train different and become a commando, then all the sudden become a sith lord and wield a lightsaber. You have to look at this situation from all aspects, not just gameplay.

 

OK. Let's look at assassin and juggernaut. Both of those classes are melee DPS and tank. Both of those classes have taunts. Both of those classes wield light sabers. Both of those classes are sith and start on Korriban.

 

Even those classes are more similar to each other than vanguard will ever be to commando. Why can I not make the switch from assassin to juggernaut? After all it's just a matter of finding some heavier armor and a different light saber and letting my rage fill me, rather than trying to fight and control my rage. It's far easier to allow oneself to lose himself in his rage than it is to control himself.

[PeterTLJr]

OK. Let's look at assassin and juggernaut. Both of those classes are melee DPS and tank. Both of those classes have taunts. Both of those classes wield light sabers. Both of those classes are sith and start on Korriban.

 

Even those classes are more similar to each other than vanguard will ever be to commando. Why can I not make the switch from assassin to juggernaut? After all it's just a matter of finding some heavier armor and a different light saber and letting my rage fill me, rather than trying to fight and control my rage. It's far easier to allow oneself to lose himself in his rage than it is to control himself.

 

Switching from trooper to commando - bigger gun, maybe new armor depending on what the sub stats are, different play style, different skill trees.

 

Switching from assassin to juggernaut- different story, different main stat, different companions, different background, its a sith yes, but 2 different siths, different generic abilities, one is more of a force user, one is more of a fighter (keep in mind, even assassins use willpower), different armor levels.

 

All I could think of, but you get the picture.

[PeterTLJr]

I would go off the fact that we have heard NOTHING since, not one PEEP, or even a hint of whisper.

 

You yourself have already admitted that there are those who will find it easier leveling as one class, but find the other class more powerful at end game. How would it not be P2W to let someone level as the more powerful leveling class and then change class, to a class they have never played before, that happens to be more powerful for the end game.

 

How is it not P2W to allow someone to level as a marauder smash monkey because that is easier than even juggernaut DPS then allow them to change class at end game so they can tank for their guild?

 

I am not paying for a cosmetic change. I am paying for a fundamentally different class, one that has different armor requirements, different weapons, different play styles, and more differences, solely so that I can the easier route and still fill the role of tank my guild wants me to fill.

 

This is true, I said that, and I still agree with it, however if they put restrictions on AC changing, and theyd like to level as something else because its easier, then use their ac switch to switch end game, thats their decision, none of our business.

[Ratajack]

Switching from trooper to commando - bigger gun, maybe new armor depending on what the sub stats are, different play style, different skill trees.

 

Switching from assassin to juggernaut- different story, different main stat, different companions, different background, its a sith yes, but 2 different siths, different generic abilities, one is more of a force user, one is more of a fighter (keep in mind, even assassins use willpower), different armor levels.

 

All I could think of, but you get the picture.

 

So, in a nutshell, whatever argument works for you in your own little deluded world. Gotcha.

[Ratajack]

This is true, I said that, and I still agree with it, however if they put restrictions on AC changing, and theyd like to level as something else because its easier, then use their ac switch to switch end game, thats their decision, none of our business.

 

But that would still make it P2W, something that almost everyone is in agreement should NEVER happen. Ergo, allowing class changes should not happen.

[PeterTLJr]

But that would still make it P2W, something that almost everyone is in agreement should NEVER happen. Ergo, allowing class changes should not happen.

 

I agree class changing should not happen, but its not class changing.

 

AC switching

Class switching

2 different things.

Edited June 15, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[PeterTLJr]

So, in a nutshell, whatever argument works for you in your own little deluded world. Gotcha.

 

No, I have admitted where there could be flaws to AC switching, I have even lost some points, and when that happens I admit it. When you are wrong, you dont admit to anything, you are always right in your own head, this isnt even a discussion to you, this is "your wrong, im right".

[Ratajack]

No, I have admitted where there could be flaws to AC switching, I have even lost some points, and when that happens I admit it. When you are wrong, you dont admit to anything, you are always right in your own head, this isnt even a discussion to you, this is "your wrong, im right".

 

You have stated that because vanguard and commando classes share a few skills that you should be able to change your CLASS from vanguard to commando. When someone else points out that EVERY class shares a few abilities, then the sharing of abilities does not matter, there is some other reason why you cannot change from an assassin to a juggernaut.

 

You have stated that spec trees are what determines a class, but when someone points out that the vanguard and commando have different spec trees, you claim that specs only decide different classes in other games, not this one. In this game the specs only decide the AC(which by the way is your CLASS).

 

Do I need to go on? You have a different sidestep for every single valid point people have brought forth that changing AC's would be changing CLASS, because you want to change your CLASS.

[PeterTLJr]

You have stated that because vanguard and commando classes share a few skills that you should be able to change your CLASS from vanguard to commando. When someone else points out that EVERY class shares a few abilities, then the sharing of abilities does not matter, there is some other reason why you cannot change from an assassin to a juggernaut.

 

You have stated that spec trees are what determines a class, but when someone points out that the vanguard and commando have different spec trees, you claim that specs only decide different classes in other games, not this one. In this game the specs only decide the AC(which by the way is your CLASS).

 

Do I need to go on? You have a different sidestep for every single valid point people have brought forth that changing AC's would be changing CLASS, because you want to change your CLASS.

 

No classes share the same abilities, only ACs within the base class share abilities. Now dont get me wrong, the mirrors to each ACs have the same exact abilities, but they are portrayed different and have their own unique animations that separates them.

 

I dont sidestep anything, you simply take one of my examples, put it in a bigger picture to make it seem like that is the only reason why it should be allowed to AC switch. I show many examples as to why the 2 ACs within the base class arent so different that they should be declared there own class. There is also reasons why they are different, but the only reasons I see are strictly from a gameplay perspective which I have already said that the gameplay/playstyle is different between the 2 ACs, but you need to look at this from other perspectives too.

Edited June 16, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Ratajack]

No classes share the same abilities, only ACs within the base class share abilities. Now dont get me wrong, the mirrors to each ACs have the same exact abilities, but they are portrayed different and have their own unique animations that separates them.

 

I dont sidestep anything, you simply take one of my examples, put it in a bigger picture to make it seem like that is the only reason why it should be allowed to AC switch. I show many examples as to why the 2 ACs within the base class arent so different that they should be declared there own class. There is also reasons why they are different, but the only reasons I see are strictly from a gameplay perspective which I have already said that the gameplay/playstyle is different between the 2 ACs, but you need to look at this from other perspectives too.

 

Does EVERY class have the same "get out of stun" ability, even if it goes by a different name? Does EVERY class share the exact same revive and revive companion skills? Does EVERY class have an out of combat self heal, even if the names and animations are different? Every class shares abilities, but because that does not support what you want, you say that makes no difference, yet you want to use the few abilities that vanguards and troopers share to justify changing your CLASS from vanguard to commando.

 

You have claimed that because troopers share a few of the same abilities, and both use guns, you should be able to change your class from vanguard to commando, yet when confronted with the logical argument that assassins and juggernauts both use light sabers and it makes as much sense for an assassin to change his armor and weapon(just as a vanguard needs to change his weapon if he changed class to a commando), you claim that does not matter. Because it does not support your desire for a CLASS CHANGE, you find a reason to deny the logic.

 

It makes no difference to you that commando and vanguard are completely different play styles as one is ranged and one is melee. We have told you time and time again that there are classes that stem from different base classes that are FAR more similar than vanguard and commando, or assassin and sorcerer will EVER be, but again, since that does not support what you want, it makes no difference. You find some reason to ignore that logic.

 

Every time you have been presented with valid, reasonable, well thought out, logical, and rationally presented arguments as to why allowing class changes should not happen and as to why allowing AC changes IS allowing CLASS CHANGES as AC's are DIFFERENT CLASSES according to the devs, who know more about this game than you or I will ever know, you find some way to ignore and dismiss anything that does not mesh with your desire for a CLASS CHANGE.

 

But you will be back here claiming that people are twisting your words, although all we are doing is using your own arguments against you. Nobody is twisting anything. We do not have to twist anything.

 

You remind me of the little kid playing "war" constantly yelling "you missed me" no matter how close his "attacker" is.

[Ratajack]

No classes share the same abilities, only ACs within the base class share abilities. Now dont get me wrong, the mirrors to each ACs have the same exact abilities, but they are portrayed different and have their own unique animations that separates them.

 

I dont sidestep anything, you simply take one of my examples, put it in a bigger picture to make it seem like that is the only reason why it should be allowed to AC switch. I show many examples as to why the 2 ACs within the base class arent so different that they should be declared there own class. There is also reasons why they are different, but the only reasons I see are strictly from a gameplay perspective which I have already said that the gameplay/playstyle is different between the 2 ACs, but you need to look at this from other perspectives too.

 

 

The only perspective you are using to look at this is "I want to CHANGE MY CLASS. I need to defend that any way I can."

[LordArtemis]

Scrapper is great at PvP ganking and Sawbones is phenomenal at healing (especially if you have mouseover healing). If you think otherwise you're seriously playing them wrong.

 

Yes, Scrapper is great at PVP. I don't PVP that often. At least not in this game.

 

Also IMO Sawbones is close to the worst healer in the game, certainly the most difficult to manage. They probably have the most utility, IE instant heals, big nukes, and HoT spells, but overall it's not a very enjoyable class to play in PVE situations. Maybe better as a PVP healer. Again, I don't PVP that often.

 

So I don't think it's that I'm playing them wrong...I don't think so doesn't mean that's definite....I just think they are exactly what I said they are to me.

[LordArtemis]

What that says to ORIGINAL design should be obvious as by your own admission, their first stance was that AC changes would not happen. I would posit the their first stance is original design.

 

They have held to their stance that AC 's are DIFFERENT classes since they made that statement before launch. They went to great lengths to add multiple confirmations that your choice of CLASS was PERMANENT and that once you start down a path, forever will it dominate you.

 

They have since made a single statement about AC changes "likely happening". That statement was made a long time ago, in a galaxy far away. We have heard NOTHING further from the devs, despite numerous lengthy threads, including this 115+ page thread and one on the suggestion forum. I do not know about you, but that absolute silence from the devs regarding what is so obviously a sensitive subject speaks worlds to me.

 

I do not expect to see class changes until this game is well and truly on the serious downfall, and they have no choice but to try to make it P2W in a last ditch effort to save it.

 

I'd just like to make one correction to your otherwise solid post IMO....

 

Nov of 2012 is relatively recent IMO. To my knowledge all of the comments made with relation to the nature of the AC system predate that remark...so as far as I know it was the most recent.

[PeterTLJr]

Does EVERY class have the same "get out of stun" ability, even if it goes by a different name? Does EVERY class share the exact same revive and revive companion skills? Does EVERY class have an out of combat self heal, even if the names and animations are different? Every class shares abilities, but because that does not support what you want, you say that makes no difference, yet you want to use the few abilities that vanguards and troopers share to justify changing your CLASS from vanguard to commando.

 

You have claimed that because troopers share a few of the same abilities, and both use guns, you should be able to change your class from vanguard to commando, yet when confronted with the logical argument that assassins and juggernauts both use light sabers and it makes as much sense for an assassin to change his armor and weapon(just as a vanguard needs to change his weapon if he changed class to a commando), you claim that does not matter. Because it does not support your desire for a CLASS CHANGE, you find a reason to deny the logic.

 

It makes no difference to you that commando and vanguard are completely different play styles as one is ranged and one is melee. We have told you time and time again that there are classes that stem from different base classes that are FAR more similar than vanguard and commando, or assassin and sorcerer will EVER be, but again, since that does not support what you want, it makes no difference. You find some reason to ignore that logic.

 

Every time you have been presented with valid, reasonable, well thought out, logical, and rationally presented arguments as to why allowing class changes should not happen and as to why allowing AC changes IS allowing CLASS CHANGES as AC's are DIFFERENT CLASSES according to the devs, who know more about this game than you or I will ever know, you find some way to ignore and dismiss anything that does not mesh with your desire for a CLASS CHANGE.

 

But you will be back here claiming that people are twisting your words, although all we are doing is using your own arguments against you. Nobody is twisting anything. We do not have to twist anything.

 

You remind me of the little kid playing "war" constantly yelling "you missed me" no matter how close his "attacker" is.

 

Lmao, companion revive, stun breaker? these are abilities your using against me?

Show me another class that has the ability Stockstrike that all troopers have.

Show me another class that gets the companion Aric Jorgan.

Show me another class that uses Aim as their stat.

Show me another class that goes through the trooper story line along with Commando and Vanguard.

Show me another class that goes to the same vendor as the troopers do in the supplies and combat training quater on the fleet.

 

You cant because the classes are different, however vanguard and commando are the SAME TROOPER.

Edited June 16, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Jeweledleah]

Yes, Scrapper is great at PVP. I don't PVP that often. At least not in this game.

 

Also IMO Sawbones is close to the worst healer in the game, certainly the most difficult to manage. They probably have the most utility, IE instant heals, big nukes, and HoT spells, but overall it's not a very enjoyable class to play in PVE situations. Maybe better as a PVP healer. Again, I don't PVP that often.

 

So I don't think it's that I'm playing them wrong...I don't think so doesn't mean that's definite....I just think they are exactly what I said they are to me.

 

I personally disagree, vehemently. I adore my operative. I adore her enough to roll a second smuggler specifically to play as cathar sawbones.

 

you did preface it with it being your opinion, so i can't really hold it against, you, however... sawbones/healy operatives are extremely fun and very VERY effective when played well and by people with suitabled preferences. (I do ops/flashpoints on sorc and operative most regularly - merc is still leveling, 40,, but I'm having fun on him so far, so I'm speaking from personal experience. I also prefer to pvp on my operative to most other classes )

[Ratajack]

I'd just like to make one correction to your otherwise solid post IMO....

 

Nov of 2012 is relatively recent IMO. To my knowledge all of the comments made with relation to the nature of the AC system predate that remark...so as far as I know it was the most recent.

 

That is the most recent statement of which I am aware, true. That statement does not in any way contradict the earlier statement that the devs see the different AC's as fundamentally different classes. That statement also does not in any way say that class changes WILL happen. That statement was also made over 6 months ago, a fairly lengthy time to go without making any further statements or even hinting at anything further regarding class changing, especially given the number of lengthy threads and the fact that is such a highly debated subject.

[Ratajack]

Lmao, companion revive, stun breaker? these are abilities your using against me?

Show me another class that has the ability Stockstrike that all troopers have.

Show me another class that gets the companion Aric Jorgan.

Show me another class that uses Aim as their stat.

Show me another class that goes through the trooper story line along with Commando and Vanguard.

Show me another class that goes to the same vendor as the troopers do in the supplies and combat training quater on the fleet.

 

You cant because the classes are different, however vanguard and commando are the SAME TROOPER.

 

You have been shown time and time again that the base class (trooper, in this case) only determines your story line. The game was designed in this manner to keep the development costs down. They would have had to double the development budget to create an additional 8 story lines, an additional 20 companions and their quest chains, the class trainers and class vendors for those additional 8 classes and the voice actors needed to voice the male and female versions of those additional 8 classes, their companions and any additional NPC's those classes would encounter in their travels. This would likely have substantially delayed the release of the game and could possibly have stopped it even before release.

 

Vanguard and commando start as troopers because it was cheaper for BW to have them start as troopers, not because they are the same class.

 

I await your next attempt to sidestep and find a reason to dismiss this as it does not support your desire to change your CLASS.

[PeterTLJr]

You have been shown time and time again that the base class (trooper, in this case) only determines your story line. The game was designed in this manner to keep the development costs down. They would have had to double the development budget to create an additional 8 story lines, an additional 20 companions and their quest chains, the class trainers and class vendors for those additional 8 classes and the voice actors needed to voice the male and female versions of those additional 8 classes, their companions and any additional NPC's those classes would encounter in their travels. This would likely have substantially delayed the release of the game and could possibly have stopped it even before release.

 

Vanguard and commando start as troopers because it was cheaper for BW to have them start as troopers, not because they are the same class.

 

I await your next attempt to sidestep and find a reason to dismiss this as it does not support your desire to change your CLASS.

 

I'm still waiting for you to show me another class that has all of the above. Cant find one? Didnt think so, because were not asking to switch out of that, were simple asking to roll from one side of the bed to the other, not switch beds.

[Ratajack]

I'm still waiting for you to show me another class that has all of the above. Cant find one? Didnt think so, because were not asking to switch out of that, were simple asking to roll from one side of the bed to the other, not switch beds.

 

Using your analogy, the trooper has two twin beds in his quarters, not one king bed. One bed is for the commando who prefers a softer mattress and fights from range and one bed is for the vanguard who gets up close and dirty, fighting in melee range, and so prefers a firmer matress, so you are asking to change beds.

[LordArtemis]

Guys, guys....the issue is not whether or not AC is a class. It seems some folks are stuck on that.

 

The issue is what kind of impact this change, if implemented would have on the game. It's not enough to simply say change is good, nor is it enough to say simply that it is wrong or against the design. It is also ridiculous to say folks want it simply because they are lazy.

 

There are positive and negative aspects to this proposed change, REAL ONES. We should be discussing those pros and cons and leave the drama at the door IMO.

[branmakmuffin]

Guys, guys....the issue is not whether or not AC is a class. It seems some folks are stuck on that.

"Folks?" It's the "against" crowd who keep throwing that out over and over as if that settles the debate, refusing to accept that "ACs are totally different classes" is itself highly debatable and also a matter of opinion. It's a common rhetorical technique to sweep aside argument on highly debatable premises by basing a conclusion on one or more of those highly debatable premises and stating "Well, those preliminary matters are settled." It reminds me of a particular U.S. president's press conference where the press secretary stated that the subject matter of a reporter's question had in effect been answered already by pointing out nothing more substantial than previous administration statements that the matter had been dealt with.

 

The issue is what kind of impact this change, if implemented would have on the game

No argument there. The problem is that it boils down to is "I like it" vs. "I don't like it," yet those who don't like it seem bent on trying to justify their position with statements like "It can't be changed because AC choice is permanent," ignoring the fact that if AC swap were allowed, of course the choice would no longer be permanent. The anger on the "against" side is unfathomable.