ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

The only reason that I am against, even a one time change, is because then we would get this same thread asking for more. You know it, I know, everyone knows it. The second that something is allowed is the second that someone wants more. There will be people that switch because they think the grass is greener, they will realize it is not greener and want to switch back.

 

I understand your point and concede it is possible...there have been examples of this. But I would counter that there have been just as many examples of players no longer making requests when a feature reaches an acceptable level, like quickbars, sprint and speeders for subs, etc.

 

In my opinion, this would be a waste of time to even bother to code. Not many people need 2 of the same class.

 

Fair enough. I would only point out that in my case, that suggestion was pointed toward the idea that a person may wish to reroll in the future, perhaps on another server, and if they made the mistake of choosing the wrong AC and wanted to switch to the alternate AC that they knew and loved they could do so, perhaps once for that particular character. By leveling a character to 50 they have demonstrated with a reasonable likelihood, IMO, that they know how to play the class....a contention against AC change some have mentioned.

[LordArtemis]

I agree this is a very important quote from Reed....

 

Absolutely anything in the game is potentially open to change in the future. That’s part of what an MMO is about. Your feedback on those changes is absolutely welcome, but just because we say that yes, something may potentially happen in the future… that doesn’t make it a certainty

 

Anything is subject to change...including things that they have said they are adding, will add or are planning to add.

 

So even saying that it will likely happen eventually is no guarantee we will see it. I do not, however, think that it was a soft "no" as others have said. I think it was more likely an opinion.

[MajikMyst]

My post history stands in evidence that I would gladly stand behind any day of the week. Is it perfect? Naturally no. However, does it represent a pattern of anything that I indicated??

 

Yes.. You lied.. You said I edited a post and I didn't.. You have been insulting toward me and others.. You have been less than civil to those that are against AC swapping.. And your post history is evidence to that..

 

I will and have admitted when I am wrong.. I did it in this very thread.. Have you?? Not that I have seen..

 

You get pissy when I say you are Pro-AC swap.. Yet you never once have settled down and asked why I feel that you are.. I have told you.. Many times in fact.. Yet I am sure you do not have a clue..

 

I don't have an issue with you lord.. I am willing to discuss AC swapping with you.. But you don't want to discuss.. You say you do, but your post to me earlier said otherwise.. This is your problem. You send conflicting messages..

 

You say you are against AC swapping.. Yet you are quick to point out where a dev said it would 'LIKELY' be added.. I have never seen a quote where the word likely was used in regards to AC swapping.. All I have ever seen is 'Soft No's'.. A concept that you seem to ignore.. One that you wouldn't ignore if you were truly against AC swapping.. You would also be like me in pointing out what the game says.. The game is directly from Bioware.. Those are Bioware's words.. Permanent.. Your choice will forever dominate your destiny.. The game tells you multiple times.. That isn't even mentioned on your little pro's and con's paste.. It should be.. It is key to this discussion.. People want to hear from Bioware.. Well.. The game is speaking for them.. They don't want to hear from Bioware.. They want to hear what they want to hear.. Which is why people like me in this discussion are always having our words twisted and manipulated into things we never said.. I spend most of my time repeating myself it isn't even funny..

 

Nobody that is against AC swapping has ever told someone how to play their game... Yet we are accused of that constantly.. Nobody that is against AC swapping has ever told someone not to play this game.. Or in my case if you don't play it my way then you should leave this game.. Yes! I was accused of that.. I never said it.. I could name the person that made that accusation, but I am not a jerk like that.. I don't have an ax to grind..

 

I am just here like everyone else wanting to share my views on this topic.. But I deserve the same respect that I show everyone else..

 

I have never lied about anyone.. I have never misrepresented what someone has said.. (Correction, did it once to make a point.. The point was missed by the other person involved..) I haven't insulted anyone.. I have never called anyone a troll unless I was called a troll first.. No two wrongs do not make a right.. But at least the other person might understand how it feels to be called a troll.. Yes, I know that is most likely a losing battle as well..

 

Yet all of the above has been done to me by you and others.. It has been done to other folks that are against AC swapping as well... Again by you and others.. Make no mistakes.. The insults, lies, and misrepresentations are all coming from one direction.. The folks that want AC swapping and including you..

 

I expect you aren't going to like this post. Oh well.. It is what it is.. Typos and all.. As I said.. I would love to discuss with you the topic of AC swapping.. Just please show me the respect that I show you.. Do not lie about me.. Do not misrepresent my words, and do not insult me.. Thanks..

[MajikMyst]

I agree this is a very important quote from Reed..

 

You do know that Stephen Reid no longer works for Bioware.. So what he said in the past is somewhat moot.. Just saying..

 

Here is where he is now..

 

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/pc-games/reid-hanging-with-heroes/

Edited July 28, 2013 by MajikMyst

[ekwalizer]

This thread from December 2011, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=103125

 

This thread from January 2012, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178253

 

Also from January 2012, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=230950&highlight=respec

 

This thread from April 2012, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=421686

 

From August 2012: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=520732&highlight=respec

 

From November 2012: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=563515&highlight=respec

 

This thread from June 2013, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=648375&highlight=respec

 

This thread from July 2013, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=658980&highlight=respec

 

I could go on and on. There is literally 1-2 posts per month on this topic.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178253

Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson

Inside each one of those, we treated those as a full class

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=574157

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

Stephan Reid on AC Swapping:

http://torwars.com/2011/12/01/stephen-reid-on-advanced-class-switching/

 

Source for all this "likely" commotion: http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

[Ratajack]

Face it. BWEA can change the game to allow AC swap any time they want. Like others, you are offering "It's always been this way" as a reason why it should always be this way.

 

Yes, BWEA can change the game mechanics IF they choose to do so. The fact that they CAN change the game mechanics is not, in and of itself, sufficient reason for them to do so. So far, they have chosen NOT to allow class changes.

 

Many of us are not saying that "the game mechanics cannot ever change because it has always been this way". We are saying that the devs designed the game to NOT allow class changes, and we are asking that it stay that way.

 

There is a difference between saying "please don't change this designed and intended game mechanic to satisfy people who refuse to make use of the options already available to allow them to play a new class" and "this game mechanic can never be changed because it has always been that way".

[Ratajack]

Reroll is very normal by alot of mmorpg they sell item ad cash shop and you can change your class

 

and trust me alot of pll do that becouse most dont like what they pick first

also bring some cash to the companie

 

 

I'm not aware of ANY game that sells class changes in the cash shop, as you claim. I'm not saying that there are none, just that I'm not aware of any. Could you please list at least a few, since you claim "very normal by alot of mmorpg they sell item ad cash shop and you can change your class"?

[ekwalizer]

I'm not aware of ANY game that sells class changes in the cash shop, as you claim. I'm not saying that there are none, just that I'm not aware of any. Could you please list at least a few, since you claim "very normal by alot of mmorpg they sell item ad cash shop and you can change your class"?

 

No AAA MMO allows it. SWG did allow it. Pre-NGE you lost all levels associated with the class you dropped. Post NGE it was Respec at will as long as you could afford it. I do not think anyone should use post-NGE as an example for others to follow.

 

FFXI allows it, that's really the only "popular" game I can think of.

[LordArtemis]

Here is a small guide that explains how the FFXIV job class system works.

 

http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/job-class-system-explained.6/

 

This is not posted to support the idea of AC change...just for information so proper comparisons can be made.

[Ratajack]

No AAA MMO allows it. SWG did allow it. Pre-NGE you lost all levels associated with the class you dropped. Post NGE it was Respec at will as long as you could afford it. I do not think anyone should use post-NGE as an example for others to follow.

 

FFXI allows it, that's really the only "popular" game I can think of.

 

So, I take it that means it's NOT normal to be able to change your class in MMO's, or even use the cash shop to buy a class change. Gee, who would have thought?

[ekwalizer]

Here is a small guide that explains how the FFXIV job class system works.

 

http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/job-class-system-explained.6/

 

This is not posted to support the idea of AC change...just for information so proper comparisons can be made.

 

That's a good reference. I wasn't trying to compare them, simply illustrating that it is out there.

 

I can't even compare pre-NGE SWG to TOR. I was a MBH/CM4000. That is already pretty similar to Arsenal or Pyro Merc. Primarily ranged DPS, but have a few survivability heals if you need them.

 

My point was more that no AAA MMO allows it. There will always be outliers. But when doing statistical analysis it's best to remove the anomalies. In this case FFXI is the outlier.

[LordArtemis]

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants, updated as needed as we go.

 

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 9

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

 

Option 10

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

I have decided to support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 10. I like the idea of option 7...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide.

 

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm open to support 1 and 7.

 

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

 

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

 

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

 

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

 

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.

 

IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

[ekwalizer]

So, I take it that means it's NOT normal to be able to change your class in MMO's, or even use the cash shop to buy a class change. Gee, who would have thought?

 

Yes you are correct. Not that you need me to point that out lol

[LordArtemis]

That's a good reference. I wasn't trying to compare them, simply illustrating that it is out there.

 

I can't even compare pre-NGE SWG to TOR. I was a MBH/CM4000. That is already pretty similar to Arsenal or Pyro Merc. Primarily ranged DPS, but have a few survivability heals if you need them.

 

My point was more that no AAA MMO allows it. There will always be outliers. But when doing statistical analysis it's best to remove the anomalies. In this case FFXI is the outlier.

 

Fair enough. Not insinuating anything by posting it...just wanted to present it if folks wished to discuss it or draw similarities.

[Bomyne]

So, I take it that means it's NOT normal to be able to change your class in MMO's, or even use the cash shop to buy a class change. Gee, who would have thought?

 

No. Most companies care about the integrity of the game, even just a little. It's the reason why Blizzard has refused all these years, and why Bioware should continue to.

[ekwalizer]

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants, updated as needed as we go.

List 2 posts up no reason to quote the whole thing.

 

I think this movement would gain more traction if the PRO group got away from wanting to be able to respec so early into their toon's life.

 

It really is on average 4 hours of play time per planet.

 

Level 10 takes 4 hours to achieve for a slow poke. Level 16 takes 8 hours. Level 20 takes 12 hours. Level 24 takes 16 hours. Level 28 takes 20 hours. Level 32 takes 24 hours. So on and so forth. I see absolutely no justification to allow respec before you finish Act 1. If you are pre-Act 1 finale, delete and start over. I have no sympathy on this matter and neither do a lot of others.

 

In all honesty I think if it is allowed, following Act 2 is the most natural place to allow it. Everyone is told FOUR times when they select their AC that it is permanent. It is no ones fault but their own that they didn't read.

 

BUT inserting a conversion conversation between 2-3 gives the option to do it long before it impacts end-game, frames it within your story AND "ensures" that it is only used once. Still the slippery slope remains.

Edited July 28, 2013 by ekwalizer

[ekwalizer]

It's game mechanics.

 

I love how you keep falling back on the idea that MMO's never change. This shows that you are new to MMO's.

 

I've been an MMOer since SWG launched in 2003. Ya know, 18 months before WoW launched. I'm a total noob.

 

I've seen first hand what happens when MMOs change based on the wants of the highly vocal few. Look at all the changes SWG underwent based on the vocal minority. Look how well that turned out for the game and the player-base.

 

I was also a world creator and administrator for Neverwinter Nights from 2003-2007, so I have a little better insight than the average player as to balance issues and what "should" be done in an effort to improve quality of life.

Edited July 28, 2013 by ekwalizer

[branmakmuffin]

No. Most companies care about the integrity of the game, even just a little. It's the reason why Blizzard has refused all these years, and why Bioware should continue to.

"Integrity of the game." Could you express that a little more pompously?

 

You mentioned the key word: "game." Only 1 thing matters from the players' perspective: fun. Only 1 thing matters from BWEA's perspective: money. "Integrity" is wholly irrelevant.

[ekwalizer]

"Integrity of the game." Could you express that a little more pompously?

 

You mentioned the key word: "game." Only 1 thing matters from the players' perspective: fun. Only 1 thing matters from BWEA's perspective: money. "Integrity" is wholly irrelevant.

 

I think this post pretty much sums up your level of understanding.

[branmakmuffin]

I think this post pretty much sums up your level of understanding.

And that pretty much sums up yours.

[justandulas]

Hopefully, never. It isn't like WoW where changing your spec is just a change of pace, in SWTOR changing your A/C is the equivalent of changing classes outright. Going from assassin to lightning sorc for instance is the WoW equivalent of going from stealth rogue to lightning mage. I'm against A/C switching, especially since lvling is so easy in this game. If you aren't happy with your AC, make an alt. It's as simple as that

[branmakmuffin]

Hopefully, never. It isn't like WoW where changing your spec is just a change of pace, in SWTOR changing your A/C is the equivalent of changing classes outright. Going from assassin to lightning sorc for instance is the WoW equivalent of going from stealth rogue to lightning mage. I'm against A/C switching, especially since lvling is so easy in this game. If you aren't happy with your AC, make an alt. It's as simple as that

Except in WoW, stealth rogue and lightning mage do not share the same base class as Sorcerer and Assassin do. It's as simple as that.

 

I'm being sarcastic with my "It's as simple as that." When someone says "It's as simple as that," it is never as simple as that. They just want to forestall discussion on a debatable topic.

Edited July 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[ekwalizer]

It has BEEN debated. Literally hundreds of times. Here are but a few:

 

This thread from December 2011, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=103125

 

This thread from January 2012, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178253

 

Also from January 2012, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=230950&highlight=respec

 

This thread from April 2012, was unsuccessful: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=421686

 

From August 2012: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=520732&highlight=respec

 

From November 2012: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=563515&highlight=respec

 

This thread from June 2013, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=648375&highlight=respec

 

This thread from July 2013, went no where: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=658980&highlight=respec

 

I could go on and on. There is literally 1-2 posts per month on this topic.

 

As I said before you cannot expect to win an argument when you use the same argument that has lost every other time.

Edited July 29, 2013 by ekwalizer

[justandulas]

Except in WoW, stealth rogue and lightning mage do not share the same base class as Sorcerer and Assassin do. It's as simple as that.

 

I'm being sarcastic with my "It's as simple as that." When someone says "It's as simple as that," it is never as simple as that. They just want to forestall discussion on a debatable topic.

 

I didn't re-read the entire thread so the simple as that comment was just that, just a comment. And yea, it is just like the stealth rogue and lightning mage switch. They share the same base but that seperates at 10. It's like in WoW if rogue/mage/warrior/priest all split at 10. Just roll an alt, an AC is basically an entirely seperate class so AC switching would be far more harmful than beneficial for SWTOR

[branmakmuffin]

I didn't re-read the entire thread so the simple as that comment was just that, just a comment. And yea, it is just like the stealth rogue and lightning mage switch.

No, it's not.

 

Your turn.

 

an AC is basically an entirely seperate class so AC switching would be far more harmful than beneficial for SWTOR

In your opinion, regarding both of your assertions in that sentence.