AsheraII Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Hmm, seems like you're now the one de-railing the thread. And, calling us trolls for calling you out -- GREAT defense. Getting back on subject -- horrible idea. 1.) You can EASILY walk into PvE content with your PvP gear. 2.) You can't do HMs, but guess what? I can't do Ranked in PvE gear. 99% of ranked groups would laugh me out. 3.) PvP gear > PvE gear for PvP. As intended. 4.) PvE gear > PvP gear for PvE. As intended. Raid gear > PvP gear in non raid-non pvp content. Bad design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassise Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Hmm, seems like you're now the one de-railing the thread. And, calling us trolls for calling you out -- GREAT defense. Getting back on subject -- horrible idea. 1.) You can EASILY walk into PvE content with your PvP gear. 2.) You can't do HMs, but guess what? I can't do Ranked in PvE gear. 99% of ranked groups would laugh me out. 3.) PvP gear > PvE gear for PvP. As intended. 4.) PvE gear > PvP gear for PvE. As intended. You've already admitted you're hijacking. Calling me a troll? GREAT offense. But anyway back to the thread 1) Then again, I've farmed my PvP gear as opposed to a fresh 55 with greens who is able to walk into PvE content. Getting full 69 is quicker than getting full PvP gear because you can farm flashpoints. 2) Good point 3) You get bolstered so having full 72 augmented can just as equal as full PvP gear 4) This is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilora Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 You've already admitted you're hijacking. Calling me a troll? GREAT offense. But anyway back to the thread 1) Then again, I've farmed my PvP gear as opposed to a fresh 55 with greens who is able to walk into PvE content. Getting full 69 is quicker than getting full PvP gear because you can farm flashpoints. 2) Good point 3) You get bolstered so having full 72 augmented can just as equal as full PvP gear 4) This is true 1.) Incorrect. A fresh 55 with greens will do horribly in 55 PvE content. Generally will be kicked immediately. They're "supposed" to be grinding dailies to get the basic gear, which should be entry to 55 HMs. A mixture of Basic gear and drops from 55 HMs is supposed to be used for 55 OPs. 3.) I believe the 72 gear has finally been fixed -- but this is unintended. PvP gear is meant to be better than all forms of PvE gear -- that is the entire reason for expertise. Bolster is supposed to make PvE gear the equivalent of Recruit gear. While they should've waited to release Bolster, so these bugs didn't exist, once they're fixed I see absolutely no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilora Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Raid gear > PvP gear in non raid-non pvp content. Bad design. Is raid gear better than ALL of the PvP gear? Including ranked/rated? If so -- eh. Kinda bad design. But MOST games I've seen that have a separation between PvP and PvE gear, this is always the case. It won't be perfect, and PvP will always get the lesser hand. Why? This is a PvE-focused game. Not a PvP game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassise Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 1.) Incorrect. A fresh 55 with greens will do horribly in 55 PvE content. Generally will be kicked immediately. They're "supposed" to be grinding dailies to get the basic gear, which should be entry to 55 HMs. A mixture of Basic gear and drops from 55 HMs is supposed to be used for 55 OPs. 3.) I believe the 72 gear has finally been fixed -- but this is unintended. PvP gear is meant to be better than all forms of PvE gear -- that is the entire reason for expertise. Bolster is supposed to make PvE gear the equivalent of Recruit gear. While they should've waited to release Bolster, so these bugs didn't exist, once they're fixed I see absolutely no problem. 1) Not in story modes, that person will usually be carried as they queue through group finder. 2) Expertise is only against other players, but all they need to do is remove bolster from level 55 pvp then the proper PvPers will be happy because they worked for their gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilora Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 1) Not in story modes, that person will usually be carried as they queue through group finder. 2) Expertise is only against other players, but all they need to do is remove bolster from level 55 pvp then the proper PvPers will be happy because they worked for their gear. 1.) So what is your point? PvP-geared players will be carried the same as a fresh-50. Ontop of that? You'd be more welcome than a fresh-55 in greens. 2.) So, in other words, 55s should be able to stomp everyone? Were you against recruit gear? Because Bolster is an attempt to FIX the problem with handing out free recruit gear. The GOAL is to remove the MASSIVE gear gap that existed. Before the current bolster, I walked into a 50 WZ and was slaughtered. Literally 2 hits from ANY of the other players, and I was dead. But, they weren't dying like this. Right now -- I'm noticing skill matters 100% more. I've yet to see anyone lolstomp because of gear, yet in a 1v1, someone with PvP gear, of the same skill, can easily down me. I'm not dying in 3 hits, nor is anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderKeeva Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) A person who PvPs a lot doesnt have good raid gear, and will find it difficult to participate in raids A person who PvEs a lot doesnt have pvp gear, but their stats get boosted so they are more or less equal to the people who PvP a lot. Once again, Bioware treat pvp like the skidmark of EA's toilet. That's not true. Partisan and Conqueror gear are more than enough to do Story Mode 55 Operations and Hard Mode 55 Flashpoints. Hell even Dread Guard and Black Hole are good enough for those. When 2.0 came out, we did both operations in crap pre-2.0 BH/DG gear and managed to clear both without a problem. Your PvP gear is still competitive in PvE and you don't have to do boring dailies for Basic and Classic commendations to get a set of lvl66 gear. You can go straight to 69. No matter what people say, Conqueror is still better for PvP than Underworld. Partisan is still better for PvP than Arkanian. I just love when people complain that they can no longer rely on a massive stastical imbalance to win in PvP and want all the newcomers to wear crap armor, in which they clearly have no chance to win. But they are the ones who complain when they get frowned upon when they enter flashpoints and operations in PvP gear because they can't be bothered to do boring dailies. Edited May 20, 2013 by CommanderKeeva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 What? A fresh 55 with no black hole cant succeed into a sm 55 op or hm 55 fp. Yes it's tiered but that still doesn't stop undergeared people in queueing for the very first tier. With at least some flashpoint gear 66/69 yes. Also it's highly unlikely that pugging or using group finder you'd get a group that was 100% fresh 55s. Mostly likely there'd be several geared people just running for coms that would make up for any deficiencies in gear. If an entire 8 man raid was leveling together and were all fresh 55s who went straight into ops doing no flashpoints they would certainly fail, but how likely is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 That's not true. Partisan and Conqueror gear are more than enough to do Story Mode 55 Operations and Hard Mode 55 Flashpoints. Hell even Dread Guard and Black Hole are good enough for those. . Absolutely this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seireeni Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 So...pre-2.0 when you could take part in everything with your PVP gear it was all fine and dandy but now that the tables are turned it's an outrage. If you think sm KP and EV were "everything", then sure, but no EC/TfB group ever accepted any of my pvp geared toons when I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 If you think sm KP and EV were "everything", then sure, but no EC/TfB group ever accepted any of my pvp geared toons when I asked. A group refusing you because their elitist is not the same as it not being possible to do it. Our group has in the past geared up former PvP only players by running HM OPs with them in their PvP gear. In HM TFB we had a full War Hero DPS come and 5th or 6th on the DPS meters in a 16 man group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassise Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 A group refusing you because their elitist is not the same as it not being possible to do it. Our group has in the past geared up former PvP only players by running HM OPs with them in their PvP gear. In HM TFB we had a full War Hero DPS come and 5th or 6th on the DPS meters in a 16 man group. 16 man yeah you probably get carried in that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seireeni Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 A group refusing you because their elitist is not the same as it not being possible to do it. Our group has in the past geared up former PvP only players by running HM OPs with them in their PvP gear. In HM TFB we had a full War Hero DPS come and 5th or 6th on the DPS meters in a 16 man group. The fact that pvp geared could theoretically do things in the past isn't the same thing the same thing as pve geared can now practically do as much pvp as they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilora Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 The fact that pvp geared could theoretically do things in the past isn't the same thing the same thing as pve geared can now practically do as much pvp as they want. Except ranked. Ranked PvP teams will shun a PvE-geared player THE SAME as HM Ops will shun a PvP-geared player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamus_Divinus Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Except ranked. Ranked PvP teams will shun a PvE-geared player THE SAME as HM Ops will shun a PvP-geared player. In my experience, the above is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seireeni Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Except ranked. Ranked PvP teams will shun a PvE-geared player THE SAME as HM Ops will shun a PvP-geared player. Those were sm ops that told me they don't take pvp geared. x) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderKeeva Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Those were sm ops that told me they don't take pvp geared. x) Well, we do S&V and TfB SM each week for extra comms and we take PvP geared players with us the same. Last week, I believe, we had 4 people in Conqueror gear from a PvP guild and did both ops without a hitch. The fact that some groups might refuse to take players in PvP gear on principle does not mean that said PvP geared players cannot meet the damage/healing/threat requirements of the instance if they do get taken, as it was evidenced by me pretty much each week. Edited May 20, 2013 by CommanderKeeva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uruare Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 And this is why I don't pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooTheCosmicCow Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 What's fair is fair...add raiding bolster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seireeni Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Well, we do S&V and TfB SM each week for extra comms and we take PvP geared players with us the same. Last week, I believe, we had 4 people in Conqueror gear from a PvP guild and did both ops without a hitch. The fact that someone groups might refuse to take players in PvP gear on principle does not mean that said PvP geared players cannot meet the damage/healing/threat requirements of the instance if they do get taken, as it was evidenced by me pretty much each week. And again, I was talking about before 2.0, answering to a person who said that people people in pvp gear would be able to do all the ops before and now would be angry that pve people can do pvp. Theoretically, maybe yes, but practically, at least I wasn't. What I've heard, the bolster was put there mostly that your match isn't "ruined" by undergeared people, but why gf sm ops then still can be ruined by undergeared people? Tbh, I don't care about the bolster that much, but I don't think I'll bother gearing my level 55s at all. Operations are just not worth it alone, and I do ok in my leveling gear in pvp. Better to buy credit boxes with my comms to buy nice things to my low-level characters, when I happen to feel like playing 55 pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I thought the purpose of Bolster for PvP was to give players more or less even footing, stat-wise, when competing against other players. In other words, to help make it so that players can't beat down others the vast majority of the time just because their gear is better. How do players compete against other players in operations? No players trying to defeat each other there, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilora Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I thought the purpose of Bolster for PvP was to give players more or less even footing, stat-wise, when competing against other players. In other words, to help make it so that players can't beat down others the vast majority of the time just because their gear is better. How do players compete against other players in operations? No players trying to defeat each other there, right? IMO, that was exactly the reason for Bolster. Real PvPers want skill-based PvP. Whiners want gear-based, so they can be "epic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 IMO, that was exactly the reason for Bolster. Real PvPers want skill-based PvP. Whiners want gear-based, so they can be "epic." If you make everyone the same stat-wise, doesn't that make the only differentiator in PvP player skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I thought the purpose of Bolster for PvP was to give players more or less even footing, stat-wise, when competing against other players. In other words, to help make it so that players can't beat down others the vast majority of the time just because their gear is better. How do players compete against other players in operations? No players trying to defeat each other there, right? Yeah personally I like bolster and now that they have ironed out the issues that plagued it at launch it works well. People complained about the gear gap and now people are complaining that the gear gap was removed. Its true what they say, you just cannot please everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustygemini Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 IMO, that was exactly the reason for Bolster. Real PvPers want skill-based PvP. Whiners want gear-based, so they can be "epic." ^^THIS...1,000,000 TIMES THIS. I think the issue here is that SWTOR is something different to everyone. I do not do FPs ever...and I do mean never. I gear through dailies, weeklies, and raiding. I PVP but mainly pre 55 because that is how I choose to level instead of doing boring planet quests. Once I hit 55 my attention goes to getting moey for more alts and gearing my new 55 for SMops. I do not go into PVP at 55 expecting to live more than 5 seconds which is why I do NOT PVP at 55. Endgame for me is raiding. Endgame for someone else might be PVP, HOWEVER, this is NOT a PVP game no matter what the idiots at Bioware have made you think. There are very few MMOs that I would say place a high priority on PVP endgame. Wasn't Aion and Rift PVP endgame based? My point is that however strongly you might feel about PVP at 55 it is not the focus of SWTOR and probably never will be. The more Bioware tries to force PVP into the endgame the more FUBARed it will become. This is why the bolster didn't work...you try to change PVP for PVErs and this is what happens. Leave PVP as PVP and PVE as PVE...they are 2 separate end games. Unfortunately this is not a PVP focused game so the endgame for PVP sucks. My advice is PVP is what you play this game for: Find another game...run don't walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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