PvE Combat, rotation and spec

[Darth_Dreselus]

Hey there,

 

Finally logged in onto my Sent (currently 48) which I have run as Combat in Vanilla and really liked it. But with the changes I seem to be really struggling, particularly with priorities.

 

My main issue is when to use Precision Slash and what with. Clearly MS is still number one and whenever it procs along with Dispatch but I am unsure about the usage of Blade Storm. Should it be used on cd? Should it be only used with the buff or even only with buff and Precision Slash? Zen also now seems as a more of 'use when ready' thing rather than in Vanilla when it worked well with Blade Rush.

 

Here is my build (PvE solo): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bcZhGMRRrorMIRZf.3.

 

Stats wise I am aiming at 100% accuracy, left over to Surge, 0 crit and rest power. Not sure if Strength or Power Augments yet.

 

Any advice and thoughts are welcome.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[JoshuaPolston]

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/6b5d7bea-b2c2-4098-b21f-a07db24d8f2e

 

This is my current build with gear. I use ps with ms and throw in either blade storm or dispatch right at the end. I use bs every time it gets off cd as long as I have the auto crit up. I can currently top at about 2600 but have seen guys get a good bit higher than me on that.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I am idiot I do not need Debilitation for PvE, so I will switch that for Saber Screen.

 

So if your BS comes off cd but no proc is up then wait for proc?

Edited May 18, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Ausgelebt]

BS only with proc.

 

 

Basic rotation:

 

Force Leap->Zealous Strike->Blade Rush->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch/Twin Saber Throw(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc or not used before).

 

If Zen:

 

Force Leap->Zealous->Precision->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm->Cauterize->Strike->Strike and from the begin

[JoshuaPolston]

BS only with proc.

 

 

Basic rotation:

 

Force Leap->Zealous Strike->Blade Rush->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch/Twin Saber Throw(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc or not used before).

 

If Zen:

 

Force Leap->Zealous->Precision->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm->Cauterize->Strike->Strike and from the begin

 

 

Yeah this right here is a great basic rotation to learn. and yes blade storm only if you have the proc

[Kurkina]

Basic rotation:

 

(bla-bla-bla)

 

If Zen:

 

(bla-bla-bla)

 

There is no rotation. Combat is a priority system where you have to watch procs and cooldowns, and mix and match them depending what buff you happen to have on you. Any talk of "rotation" is nonsense.

[Ausgelebt]

Any talk without knowledge is "nonsense". You gotta time your cooldowns around your rotation not vice-versa, if you don't do so you will gimp any raid dps-wise, especially using the combat tree. What I wrote above is pretty correct. Just read the combat logs of the high parsing sentinels @torparse..

[Jesz]

in my opinion u just gotta use every cd u get and spam blade rush. Only use Master strike when u got all ur cds on a timer. I would say prioritize dispatch and blade storm over any other abilities. some people use cautarize when precision slash is on a long cd but if u feel that u do not want a lot of keybinds then remove it from ur rotation.

[Ausgelebt]

in my opinion u just gotta use every cd u get and spam blade rush. Only use Master strike when u got all ur cds on a timer. I would say prioritize dispatch and blade storm over any other abilities. some people use cautarize when precision slash is on a long cd but if u feel that u do not want a lot of keybinds then remove it from ur rotation.

 

 

Master Strike is on of your strongest abilities, you always have to use it in a precision slash window else you will loose a lot of dps. It is not just use CDs and spam blade rush. Sorry.

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/248633

 

my latest log, missing 510 power proc relic, mainhand and a lot of enhancements with power..

[Plicitous]

my latest log, missing 510 power proc relic, mainhand and a lot of enhancements with power..

 

What is Wind Buffet? Is that how the OnDamage relic proc is listed in the combat log?

 

Are you able to sustain that DPS over 5-10 minutes? Because it looks like the DPS is being buffeted by the initial burst of damage and is steadily trending downward when the parse ends. I've noticed many other parses do the same.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Plicitous

[Plicitous]

Just read the combat logs of the high parsing sentinels @torparse..

 

I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take any of Torparse.com's eye-popping parses seriously. Any leaderboard that relies on the voluntary submission of text files from anonymous users should, at best, be taken with a grain of salt. Human nature being what it is, log tampering is probably rampant.

 

I also think it's worth discussing the differences between theoretical parses done in an ordered environment and those done in the heat of battle. When I'm smacking the training dummy around, it's easy to pop an adrenal at precisely the right moment when I'm Focused, off cool-down, and in a state of Zen. It's quite another when I'm in the movement phase of an Operation, or when I'm tasked with something that requires my full attention (like finding those annoying and hard to see little orbs in HM Operator IX).

 

TL;DR

I need to be grouped with someone and see the combat log being parsed in real-time before I believe some of the numbers being thrown around.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Plicitous

[Ausgelebt]

What is Wind Buffet? Is that how the OnDamage relic proc is listed in the combat log?

 

Are you able to sustain that DPS over 5-10 minutes? Because it looks like the DPS is being buffeted by the initial burst of damage and is steadily trending downward when the parse ends. I've noticed many other parses do the same.

 

Of course, since the burst phase will repeat..

 

Wind Buffet is Kinetic Tempest relic

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ausgelebt

[Mikeieveli]

BS only with proc.

 

 

Basic rotation:

 

Force Leap->Zealous Strike->Blade Rush->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch/Twin Saber Throw(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc or not used before).

 

If Zen:

 

Force Leap->Zealous->Precision->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Rush->Blade Storm(if proc)/Dispatch(if no proc)->Precision Slash->Master Strike->Blade Storm->Cauterize->Strike->Strike and from the begin

 

Dont Blade Rush before you PS, or you could force a HoJ proc wasting the PS proc from it.

[KeyboardNinja]

Dont Blade Rush before you PS, or you could force a HoJ proc wasting the PS proc from it.

 

This. Very very important.

 

The Combat rotation is a straight-up priority queue. One of the most razer-edge in the game, due to the high APM. The rotation is built around the following combo, which you can get once every 20 seconds:

 

PS + BS > BR > TST > [strike/Zealous Strike > BR > …] > PS + Disp > BR > BS

 

The bracketed section is where you fish for the HoJ proc. Generally it procs during the previous Precision Slash window, but not always. Even if it does proc during the previous window, always inject a GCD between windows (usually a focus builder) to ensure that you can fit the second Blade Storm at the tail end of the second window. This "double Blade Storm" is basically the core of the rotation. This does force you to delay use of Blade Storm by about 2 GCDs between PS windows. That's ok. Only use BS during a Precision Slash window, or *immediately* following the second PS window if you got the proc late (to avoid having BS on CD when PS comes off CD naturally).

 

Note that if you get the HoJ proc, you really can only wait a single GCD following the first PS window to use it. Whenever you delay use of HoJ, you dramatically increase the odds that you will get HoJ before PS naturally comes off of CD in the *next* rotation, resulting in 4.5 seconds of lost arpen and a massive DPS loss.

 

All of this goes out the window though if you fail to get the Opportune Strike proc, which happens disturbingly often. Be very, very aware of your buff bar and NEVER use Blade Storm off proc (even during Precision Slash). Not only is it a serious DPS loss, but it denies you the focus refund. Given how tight Combat is in the resource department, it is absolutely vital that you nail this proc every time.

 

Aside from all that… Make sure you have 6 Focus going into your first of the double PS. Between PS windows, you generally want to spam BR > Strike/Zealous Strike, to ensure that you get the Opportune Strike proc for your first PS window. Never use Cauterize. It hits slightly harder than Blade Rush, but you will find yourself lacking the OS proc too frequently with a Cauterize rotation (I generally parse about 100-150 DPS higher without cauterize than I do with).

 

Master Strike is the tricky one. I use it on CD, since you can't use it during the second PS window and using it during the first one generally delays the HoJ proc by at least a GCD. It's worth it though if you can get the following sequence in for the first window (note: if your latency is anything at all, the following will be very ill-advised):

 

BR > PS + BS > Master Strike

 

Always use BR before Master Strike for the Ataru proc rate bump.

 

My opener looks like the following:

 

Leap > (Inspiration + Valorous + Zen) Zealous Strike > (Adrenal + Relic) PS + BR > Master Strike > PS + Disp > BR > BS > TST > BR > Zealous Strike > …

 

For the record, the above generates an UNBELIEVABLE amount of threat. It's one of the hardest-hitting openers in the game, so you will probably want to alert your tanks if they aren't already aware of Combat's burst potential.

 

Random tip: Combat is 100% tied to the timing of the HoJ proc. It has massive burst, but it isn't even remotely "on demand". You cannot delay this proc by any reliable means, and attempting to do so risks loss of a Precision Slash window. While it's very tempting to a) delay your burst for an upcoming phase, or b) attempt to burst early for a current phase, you absolutely cannot do this. Stick to the rigid timing or you will either run out of focus or run out of damage (or both). It is for this reason that Focus is superior to Combat for fights that require strictly-controlled, on demand burst.

[Ausgelebt]

Less DPS with cauterize? MH.

[Jurugu]

Thank you everyone - especially keyboardninja - for the precise elaboration on the Combat rotation. Some questions, though:

 

1) When is the best time to use Zen? Always save it to pair it with PS, or use it on CD? Does the answer depend on whether the 4 piece set bonus is available?

 

2)

Master Strike is the tricky one. I use it on CD, since you can't use it during the second PS window and using it during the first one generally delays the HoJ proc by at least a GCD.

Maybe it is my inexperience with the spec, but why would Master Strike delay the HoJ proc?

 

3) I was led to believe by various posts in various threads that on pure sustained DPS the Watchman spec had a small lead compared to Combat. Then I came across this thread showing several Carnage Marauders claiming top spots. On the dummy no less, which should clearly favor Watchman as without an armor debuff the burns bypassing armor is an even bigger advantage. Is this just an anomaly caused by a lack of parsing Watchman Sentinels, or was the initial assumption wrong and Combat has at least equal DPS?

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jurugu

[atschai]

I use Zen on cooldown. Sure it is nice to have one more blade rush during precision slash but as it drastically increases your apm, you want to use it as often as possible.

You can get the HoJ proc as soon as you use precision slash. So spamming blade rush during your pen window can trigger HoJ. If you use masterstrike instead, you have to trigger HoJ afterwards and cannot use precision slash immediately after, effectively losing DPS. You can use MS during the second pen window though if it is available.

 

The question about combat and watchman is a tricky one. Be wary about the parses you see on torparse, those can be exeptionally good players or players who would do anyting to be on top, i.e. bringing an armor debuff to the dummy or cheesing with multiple inspirations. You will never know. Just use the spec you are better at. From a personal perspective, I can tell you that when paired with a similairly geared watchman sentinel I sometimes come ahead and sometimes not, depending on the fight. For example Ciphas, Heirad and Kelsara, Kephess and the Cartel Warlords, i.e. fights with much movement usually see watchman pull ahead of carnage. On stationary single target fights though I tend to be ahead in carnage. On fights like Dashroode or Titan 6 I even go focus just because it is so good.

[Jurugu]

You can get the HoJ proc as soon as you use precision slash. So spamming blade rush during your pen window can trigger HoJ. If you use masterstrike instead, you have to trigger HoJ afterwards and cannot use precision slash immediately after, effectively losing DPS.

Can't Master Strike trigger HoJ as well? Likely one Master Strike has a lower chance to do so than two Blade Rushes, but you make it sound like the chance is 0%.

 

The question about combat and watchman is a tricky one. Be wary about the parses you see on torparse, those can be exeptionally good players or players who would do anyting to be on top, i.e. bringing an armor debuff to the dummy or cheesing with multiple inspirations. You will never know.

That is definitely true.

 

However II would find it hard to believe that Combat Sentinels are the only ones resorting to such manipulative tricks and all Watchmen choose to play fair.

[atschai]

Can't Master Strike trigger HoJ as well? Likely one Master Strike has a lower chance to do so than two Blade Rushes, but you make it sound like the chance is 0%.

 

It is not. Master Strike has 6 ticks, 20% (+15% ataru mastery) chance per tick to trigger Ataru Form, which in itself triggers HoJ with 45% chance, making it 6 times 16% to trigger at least once: 1-(0.84^6)=65% (More exactly, if you get Ataru Proc on one tic, you cannot get an ataru proc on the next tic, as it can only happen once every 1.5sec, even reducing this probability more to around 60%).

Blade Rush triggers Ataru Form, making it 45% chance per Blade rush, 3 times instead of Master strike: 1-(0.55^3)=83% (for 2 Blade Rushes it is 60%). So one Master Strike has roughly the same chance triggering HoJ as 2 Blade Rushes but takes as long as 3. That is why KBN said that Master Strike delays HoJ by one GCD.

 

To put that into perspective, 1GCD is 1.5 sec. Usually you have precision slash for 4.5 sec, during which you should get the proc, then 4.5 sec again, then 10.5 sec CD, making it 9sec/19.5sec=46% uptime of PS buff.

If you do get the proc 1GCD later, it is 4.5sec+1.5sec+4.5sec+10.5sec=21sec equals 9sec/21sec=43% uptime.

During precision slash you have 30% armor penetration in boss fights, making you lose 3%*30%=1% DPS just because of this little change to your rotation. Of course, half of the time, Master Strike WILL trigger HoJ, so we half that to 0.5% which is still around 12.5 DPS (which equals roughly 30 Power on your stats, which in itself equals 1 piece of your armor upgraded from Arkanian to Underworld). So judge yourself if it matters for you or not

Edited June 7, 2013 by atschai